Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 09-28-07, 03:02 PM	The way I read it, if you use psychic reformation on a psionic contingency, you don't actually have to choose what you are changing until you are actually under the effects of the power. Which means, of course, that if you phrase your contingency correctly, you could set yourself up to handle literally anything, and all in a matter of seconds. I think I like this combo. Of course, it'd be best if you had a list of changes to make beforehand, as setting up what amounts to a new character could be a bit...time-consuming. So, any thoughts?
awaken_D_M_golem 09-28-07, 04:40 PM	Lycanthromanced (v) - to be lycanthromanced. Great find. I always used Psy-Ref with the Link and 1st level power setup for the 2 round change. This gets around that. I guess you need the 10 minutes to hang around and have the Psy-Ref ready to go. Our favorite punching bag - the Divine Mind - benefits from having a Link Psy-Ref item and a Schism item. Switch aroo on the Auras. With your idea, the switch doesn't take place during the 2nd round of combat, it happens right away. You just gone and done made the Divine Mind playable. Obviously, the other classes benefit more. Me: "hey DM" DM: (uh-oh) "Yes?" Me: "I'm feeling lycanthromancy today." DM: :tantrum:
PhaedrusXY 09-28-07, 04:44 PM	Very nice. You wouldn't even need to be that careful with the wording. Just set the trigger as "when I say: time to reformat the old hard drive". :D
hovnarr 09-28-07, 06:52 PM	Yes, you can speak as a free action even when it's not your turn. This implies that you can also think the wording you had in mind when it's not your turn, to avoid being hosed by silence effect. So set a specific thought as the contingency trigger, and you can have it trigger whenever you wish, even before initiative is rolled. My favorite contingency is Temporal Acceleration. It still counts as a level 6th power when augmented. A twice augmented and extended TA lasts 8 rounds and only costs 11+4+4+2=21 pp (doable by level 18 with Overchannel). Think about it: EIGHT ROUNDS of free time whenever you wish, regardless of circumstances.
unusualsuspect 09-28-07, 09:27 PM	Yes, you can speak as a free action even when it's not your turn. This implies that you can also think the wording you had in mind when it's not your turn, to avoid being hosed by silence effect. So set a specific thought as the contingency trigger, and you can have it trigger whenever you wish, even before initiative is rolled. My favorite contingency is Temporal Acceleration. It still counts as a level 6th power when augmented. A twice augmented and extended TA lasts 8 rounds and only costs 11+4+4+2=21 pp (doable by level 18 with Overchannel). Think about it: EIGHT ROUNDS of free time whenever you wish, regardless of circumstances. I was under the impression one couldn't take any actions until one's initiative comes up. That would seemingly prevent speaking, if speaking is, in fact, a free action (and not, say, a non-action).
AntiDjinn 09-28-07, 09:49 PM	We discussed this a bit back in the "Psionics dies for me...." thread. The OP in that downplayed the value of Psychic Reformation because you could retrain for gold and time alone if you were willing to change items one at a time and wait for a separate level-up for each item. Of course, having PR be a power means it can be inserted into frameworks. Psionic Contingency has one major advantage over its arcane counterpart: A wizard can only have one Contingency spell active at a time. This works fine for a wizard; he casts the Contingency once then doesn't bother to memorize it for weeks. For manifesters, there is no limit on how many contingencies you may have, instead the limit on on companion powers; you may only have one companion power active at a time. The downside to Psionic Contingency Psychic Reformation is that you need to be reasonably certain you will need it in the next 1 day/ML. If it doesn't go off, then you are out the XP for Contingency (all of 15) and Psychic Reformation (you have to manifest the power when you manifest Contingency and XP is spent when you manifest, not when it goes off). While you don't have to decide exactly which feats, powers, or skill allocations you will change, there is one decision you need to make in advance: How many levels to reform, since this determines the XP cost for reformation. In practice, it would work like this: A 12th level psion (min ML for Psychic Reformation to be at the 1/3rd mark) spends 10 minutes, 18 power points (11 for Contingency, 7 for Reformation) and 115 XP (15 Contingency, 100 Reformation), and sets the trigger: "If say 'Addis Ababa.'" At any time in the next 12 days he can speak his trigger and instantly reform the feats, powers, and skill points of two of his character levels. As normal for Reformation, these changes are permanent. By the way, I suggest selecting a trigger you can control rather than one that is purely reactive to the situation. That way, if your contingency is soon to expire you can choose to activate it and gain the benefit of a Reformation that you already paid for.
hovnarr 09-29-07, 07:39 AM	I was under the impression one couldn't take any actions until one's initiative comes up. That would seemingly prevent speaking, if speaking is, in fact, a free action (and not, say, a non-action). Speaking (and also immediate actions) is an exception to this: Speak In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
CrimsonDeath 09-29-07, 10:16 AM	Speaking (and also immediate actions) is an exception to this: But even immediate actions can't be performed when flat-footed. Does speech suffer the same limitation? (For the record, I don't think a command thought would be a good trigger for Contingency. This may be my Obsessive Compulsive tendencies talking, but I find it difficult to avoid thinking about something I know I shouldn't think about.)
unusualsuspect 09-29-07, 11:02 AM	But even immediate actions can't be performed when flat-footed. Does speech suffer the same limitation? My question exactly.
hovnarr 09-29-07, 11:10 AM	It appears that you can indeed speak even if you're flatfooted. I find no reference to the contrary. However, the free action of speaking shouldn't count as an "act", in the sense that it would remove the flatfooted state by itself. You can't just speak and no longer be flatfooted by virtue of having taken an action. Maybe you can by the RAW, but it's so far fetched that we might as well not go there.
AntiDjinn 09-29-07, 11:27 AM	The way my group has handled it, simple banter and rhetoric takes no specific action and can happen continuously; a motormouth character may never stop talking as long as he is awake. Consider: You might ambush another party while they are arguing or simply having a conversation; the fact that they are talking does not make them immune to a surprise round, so obviously it is possible to be talking and flat-footed at the same time. Speech to activate an item or cast a spell takes place as part of an action and so can not be done while flat-footed. In the case of a PC who is already being a chatterbox, nothing he says should be about the fact that they are under attack until he is aware of the situation. Contingency, however, presents a different situation. The action in question was already taken days or even weeks in advance. The words (or whatever trigger) to set it off don't require an action (on your part or anyone else's) only a condition or situation. You can speak your trigger phrase as part of a casual non-combat utterance, though if you are truly unaware of being in danger you should have no reason to do so.
hovnarr 09-29-07, 11:54 AM	I think AntiDjinn paints a pretty accurate picture. The way I envision a speech/thought-contingency trigger to work is something like this: You see an incoming fireball headed your way and say "Aw, crap" before it hits, contingencing (for instance) an X round Temporal Acceleration that is resolved before the fireball takes effect. However, if you unwittingly walk into an anti-magic field, you can't think/speak to set of your contingency and your life insurance is void. So whatever trigger you choose, it seems to be able to thwart you one way of the other.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-29-07, 02:15 PM	Snarkers, AntiDjinn, I may have taken the side of PHB2 retraining being "cheaper" than PsyRef, but eventually I came to my psionically-enhanced senses. And this is better still. Furthermore, 4E is going to have rebuilding from the start. What initially was the most broken power of v3.5, is now the crusty old grump-pa to be trotted out every now and (contigency) then. "a motormouth character may never stop talking as long as he is awake." Yeah, and that Otto's Irresistable Dance-like spell which has the character YELL instead of dance, would have a flat-footed character motormouthing away ... loudly. gee ... Hovnarr is back , Haldrik is back ; I guess 4E is making people nostalgic :)
hovnarr 09-29-07, 02:45 PM	gee ... Hovnarr is back , Haldrik is back ; I guess 4E is making people nostalgic Actually, seeing Haldrik here made me nostalgic. I've always been here in waves since I joined. I'm active for a few months, then I don't touch wizards.com for a few months, then I come back again. "I've come to my psionically enhanced senses" - will have to remember that one. [/tangent]
BlaineTog 09-29-07, 05:51 PM	(For the record, I don't think a command thought would be a good trigger for Contingency. This may be my Obsessive Compulsive tendencies talking, but I find it difficult to avoid thinking about something I know I shouldn't think about.)Yeah, but you could set it like so: "When I think the thought 'Activate Contingency' with the intent to activate it." Just thinking about the thought would be different than intending to activate it; hell, why not just set it to "when I intent/will it to activate"?
AntiDjinn 09-29-07, 11:08 PM	This combo works out much better for the psion than for other manifesters. The Psion learns 2 powers each level from 2nd level except for a segment from 11th to 19th in which only 1 power is learned at odd levels. Still, for most levels 50 XP with reformation lets you choose two different powers. For feats the golden level to reform is level 15 for single-classed psions because they get both a standard and bonus feat so 50 XP lets you re-pick two feats (good for getting a feat with a prereq) as well as one power. The wilder just doesn't fare so well. Not only is he unlikely to spend two of his 11 powers on Contingency and Psychic Reformation (neither is really an action power, and neither benefits from Wild Surge) but he doesn't learn a power every level and gets no bonus feats. A wilder using this combo is more likely to have to reform multiple levels (3 or more would be average) to make enough character changes that he becomes ready for a situation for which he was previously unprepared. The erudite will probably rarely use this combo. He knows a staggering number of powers, and gets the psion's bonus feats; if he is unprepared for a situation it is generally because his UP/D have already been allocated, and reforming does not fix this. It is likely an erudite of high enough level knows both these powers, but unlikely that he uses them together. The ardent could benefit from the combo, but he knows relatively few powers, choses from a short list, gets no bonus feats, and neither of these powers appear on the mantle lists published so far (still, the biggest handicap the ardent faces). The psychic warrior would need to spend feats to learn both powers in this combo and getting Contingency takes an epic feat. The lurk does get Contingency, so he only has to pick up reformation. In his standard character role, the lurk will be faced with situations in which he has to adapt and change his tactics, so he could be one with considerable motivation to develop this combo.
Sagetim 09-30-07, 03:06 PM	Yes, you can speak as a free action even when it's not your turn. This implies that you can also think the wording you had in mind when it's not your turn, to avoid being hosed by silence effect. So set a specific thought as the contingency trigger, and you can have it trigger whenever you wish, even before initiative is rolled. My favorite contingency is Temporal Acceleration. It still counts as a level 6th power when augmented. A twice augmented and extended TA lasts 8 rounds and only costs 11+4+4+2=21 pp (doable by level 18 with Overchannel). Think about it: EIGHT ROUNDS of free time whenever you wish, regardless of circumstances. also doable if you have the metapower feat on temporal accel (lowers cost of metapsi with it by 2). As well, why don't more wizards prepare contingency with 'lesser spell mantle' or something? then when they say 'oh f***!' their mantle activates and they don't die by fireball...
PhaedrusXY 10-01-07, 12:51 PM	Speaking (and also immediate actions) is an exception to this:Wow... That is just begging to be broken via Contingency. I can't believe I've never seen anyone mention abusing this before... I'm sure some DMs would house rule it so that it works like an Immediate Action (and hence can't be taken while flat-footed), though.
crizhII 10-01-07, 01:03 PM	Wow... That is just begging to be broken via Contingency. I can't believe I've never seen anyone mention abusing this before... I'm sure some DMs would house rule it so that it works like an Immediate Action (and hence can't be taken while flat-footed), though. If you think about it every DM must house-rule this way. Guards that may speak as a free action, out of turn, even when flat-footed are impossible to take out before they raise the alarm. :D
unusualsuspect 10-01-07, 01:28 PM	Wow... That is just begging to be broken via Contingency. I can't believe I've never seen anyone mention abusing this before... I'm sure some DMs would house rule it so that it works like an Immediate Action (and hence can't be taken while flat-footed), though. I'm still not seeing where that entry shows that it bypasses the unable-to-act-before-your-initiative limitation. It says that GENERALLY, it's a free action you can perform when it isn't your term. It says nothing about bypassing an inability to perform actions. I would think it would need to explicitly state it WAS an exception, especially since it begins with the word "generally", IF it was able to bypass that restriction. Maybe I'm just stubborn. :(
hovnarr 10-01-07, 03:50 PM	The meaning of the expression "in general" is clarified in the following sentence, where it states that a long message does not take this short to perform. Similarly, you can see the difference between a guard who a) Has time to say "oh, f..ck" to himself before he dies (a free action before he gets to act) and one who b) inhales and screams from the top of his lungs "SOUND THE ALARM, THE PRISONER HAS ESCAPED!!" (not a free action that can be taken by default). However, I see no problem to have the first as a contingency trigger though. OTOH, you must be aware of the incoming attack somehow at least. If there's nothing alerting you to speak/think your trigger before unfortunate event X takes place, why would you? You can't go: DM: So, you walk into an anti-magic field area Player: Nah-uh, I speak my contingency word first!!
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 03:58 PM	Given that psionic contingency can take place automatically, WITHOUT AN ACTION OF ANY KIND, right after the trigger occurs, I'd say that allowing a word or thought as a free action wouldn't be out of line. It happens in response to something else, without your intervention. Once you've set up the parameters, you don't have to perform an action to get it to fire. It just does. So I say that allowing a thought, deed, or word to trigger it as a free action is perfectly in-line with the way the power works.
unusualsuspect 10-01-07, 04:10 PM	The meaning of the expression "in general" is clarified in the following sentence, where it states that a long message does not take this short to perform. Similarly, you can see the difference between a guard who a) Has time to say "oh, f..ck" to himself before he dies (a free action before he gets to act) and one who b) inhales and screams from the top of his lungs "SOUND THE ALARM, THE PRISONER HAS ESCAPED!!" (not a free action that can be taken by default). However, I see no problem to have the first as a contingency trigger though. OTOH, you must be aware of the incoming attack somehow at least. If there's nothing alerting you to speak/think your trigger before unfortunate event X takes place, why would you? You can't go: DM: So, you walk into an anti-magic field area Player: Nah-uh, I speak my contingency word first!! That still doesn't give speaking an exception when it comes to NOT BEING ABLE TO TAKE ANY ACTIONS. I'm fine with "speaking as a free action". I'm even fine with "speaking as an immediate action". I'm just not understanding where the idea that speaking is exempt from the rule that you can't take any actions (even, and especially, immediate ones) until you've acted.
hovnarr 10-01-07, 07:07 PM	you can't take any actions (even, and especially, immediate ones) until you've acted. You can't take actions until you've acted? Golly darn, how you ever supposed to get nuthing done? OK, so my Texas keyboard accent sucks, but you see the flawed logic here, no? Acting is the same thing as taking actions. It's not that the game forbids you to take actions. You can take actions whenever you like, always. There's just one exception: when it's someone else's turn. Typically, the only time you can't take an action (move, standard, free, or whatever) is when you're on an initiative count and it's sb else's initiative. THEN there are exceptions to this exception. Such as in-combat immediate actions, readied actions and, yes, speaking - WHICH SPECIFICALLY overrides the only one exception to your NOT being able to act freely, namely the fact that it's not your turn. The phrase "you can speak even when it's not your turn", translated to normal English, means, "you can speak when f..cking ever you like, no holds barred, no exceptions, ever". Except if you can't speak at all of course, like, if a god on some plane wishes your tounge away. Then you can't speak, period.
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 07:42 PM	Tounge?
AntiDjinn 10-01-07, 07:43 PM	Given that psionic contingency can take place automatically, WITHOUT AN ACTION OF ANY KIND, right after the trigger occurs, I'd say that allowing a word or thought as a free action wouldn't be out of line. It happens in response to something else, without your intervention. Once you've set up the parameters, you don't have to perform an action to get it to fire. It just does. So I say that allowing a thought, deed, or word to trigger it as a free action is perfectly in-line with the way the power works. Setting up a Contingency basically means spending at least 10 minutes taking an action now, to get to take advantage of that action much later. You aren't actually acting out of turn, you are simply getting the results of an action already completed. That being said, how it gets triggered should always depend on how well the character formulated the trigger condition. If the condition is poorly worded it should fail to go off, or may go off under unanticipated circumstances. If you set the trigger as "The next time I say 'damnit!'" and something takes you down so unexpectedly that you never even know you are in danger (you teleport, and land in a sphere of annihilation) then you don't speak your trigger regardless of what kind of action it is or isn't (now, if your trigger was: "If I teleport into a situation that can do me immediate harm" it is another matter). If the wording on someone's trigger is just plain idiotic, then I am not going to give them the result they were hoping for regardless of when they act.
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 07:49 PM	I'd say that teleporting into a Sphere of Annihilation would...well...annihilate you. Unless you managed to contingency a psionic revivify, you're gonna be dead afterwards. Even if you DO revivify yourself, you're likely still gonna be inside the Sphere, which isn't a good place to be.
AntiDjinn 10-01-07, 07:52 PM	I'm not saying it would save you, just that it could go off even in a true sudden death event if the trigger doesn't require you to do anything. You would die with some buffing power active for all of a nanosecond.
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 07:54 PM	Hmm. I wonder if adapt body would work in a Sphere of Annihilation? :D
sijigs 10-01-07, 08:06 PM	This is an awesome combo but as long as you don't also happen to change skills/feats the you qualify for a PrC. :D
unusualsuspect 10-01-07, 08:08 PM	You can't take actions until you've acted? Golly darn, how you ever supposed to get nuthing done? OK, so my Texas keyboard accent sucks, but you see the flawed logic here, no? Acting is the same thing as taking actions. It's not that the game forbids you to take actions. You can take actions whenever you like, always. There's just one exception: when it's someone else's turn. Typically, the only time you can't take an action (move, standard, free, or whatever) is when you're on an initiative count and it's sb else's initiative. THEN there are exceptions to this exception. Such as in-combat immediate actions, readied actions and, yes, speaking - WHICH SPECIFICALLY overrides the only one exception to your NOT being able to act freely, namely the fact that it's not your turn. The phrase "you can speak even when it's not your turn", translated to normal English, means, "you can speak when f..cking ever you like, no holds barred, no exceptions, ever". Except if you can't speak at all of course, like, if a god on some plane wishes your tounge away. Then you can't speak, period. Emphasis mine. Forgive me, I should have typed "until your initiative comes up". Until one's initiative in combat comes up, as one might recall, one is incapable of any actions, even immediate ones. But wait... Am I wrong? Have I been arguing from complete ignorance all this time? I was completely and utterly under the assumption that one can't perform actions (once initiative starts) until one's first turn in initiative. I could've sworn I'd read that somewhere, but I might be mistaken. Forgive me, all, I appear to have been mistaken, as I can't find anything in the Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) section stating one is unable to perform actions before one's initiative comes up. Edit: At best, I can find this: You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. Speaking, as defined earlier, has all the markings of an immediate action, though it isn't explicitly called that (since immediate actions didn't exist until after the PHB had been printed). I don't think it unreasonable to imply that speaking, like all other immediate actions, should be restricted from use if one is flat-footed. I won't say that's the only way to rule it (it isn't), and I won't say anyone else is wrong (it isn't clearly one way or the other), but that's what I've been arguing from all along - that Speaking is effectively an immediate action (if not in name, then in general description), and should be treated as such for the rule on flat-footed action.
hovnarr 10-02-07, 08:13 AM	Yes, I also think you confused the rules particulars for immediate actions with actions in general. 99% of the time, there's no need to make any specifications for other actions since they all normally fall under the default "cannot be taken under another's turn" clause. Immediate actions break this but have a restriction of their own - namely, that they can't be taken while flat-footed. Speaking when it's not your turn is not an immediate action, and thus isn't affected by these restrictions. You can houserule it and say that it works just like an immediate action though. Before you do that though, such a house rule essentially specifies that a rogue can walk up to someone unaware, shoot him once with a loaded crossbow, reload it, and shoot him again (winning initiative), and the target can't even say "OUCH!" when this happens because he hasn't had a turn in the initative count yet. OTOH, if any of you incorporate speech triggers, you might want to specify in advance how you handle the order of things in the "contingency round". To avoid the discussion on who spoke first when it wasn't his round - the party wizard or the BBEG psion?