psychic strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

psychic strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_Luca_
11-24-07, 08:57 AM Hi guys, i'm wondering if the soulknife can drop his movement to add 1d8 damage each round. in other words can he add the extra damage each round (assuming he's continuing to drop the movement), or he should drop his movement first and then use the psychic strike in the next round?

Many thanks for you replies!
draco1119
11-24-07, 10:58 AM A soulknife can spend a move action to charge his psychic strike. He can do this every round. Of course, that means that he does that and either moves (taking a second move action) or does something else (taking a standard). There's a feat in Complete Psionic that lets you charge your Psichic Strike as a swift action... once per day. *shakes head*

Is Psychic Strike so powerful that they couldn't let you just charge it as a swift?
Lycanthromancer
11-24-07, 01:21 PM Is Psychic Strike so powerful that they couldn't let you just charge it as a swift?Yes. Especially considering how rogues can do so as a free action, and get multiple sneak attacks all round every round.

Those d8s are overpowered, I tell you. Sneaky bastards.
Sagetim
11-24-07, 01:34 PM Yes. Especially considering how rogues can do so as a free action, and get multiple sneak attacks all round every round.

Those d8s are overpowered, I tell you. Sneaky bastards.

Actually, yes, they can be. sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind. Most constructs don't fall under that, but there are a goodly number of sentient undead. Pretty much any strong undead is probably sentient. Also, most rogues would need someone to flank the foe they're trying to sneak attack, at least after the first round. Only exceptions would be if they have HIPS.

Anywho, the soulknife has worked just fine for me so far. In fact my current one at level 3 can do more damage in one hit than any non hyperoptimized caster of comparable level. Before I start rambling....my point is that the psychic strike is more versatile than the basic sneak attack. And if you really need to hit undead alot, there's a specific prc for it. Hell, the first level of that prc gives psy strike the ability to affect mindless undead. And the third gives your mindblade a permanent undead bane effect for free.

Have a nice day. And nice sarcasm lynch.
Fafnir
11-24-07, 02:04 PM Actually, yes, they can be. sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind.

Really?
Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage.
That's actually a big difference there.
Moosh Nailo
11-24-07, 05:50 PM Ok, Fafnir, you could understand what Sagetim was saying. No need to be snarky and nitpick details. This isn't a situation where that is required, no fine-tuning of rules involved.

He is still right, anyway. Psychic strike has the ability to affect anything with a mind (mind-affecting). Whether it actually can affect it or not depends on whether said creature is immune to mind-affecting.
InkBlot
11-24-07, 08:01 PM Moosh, Sagetim said that Soulknives have an advantage over Rogues, and then Fafnir proved that Soulknives do not have an advantage over Rogues. What's wrong with that?

Just the facts that psychic strike damage comes so slowly, is so low, and that Rogues can sneak attack multiple times in a turn, make psychic strike far inferior to sneak attack. At 11th level, the Soulknife does 3d8 extra damage with psychic strike for spending a whole turn charging his blade and attacking, while the Rogue does 6d6 if he spends the whole turn attacking (and misses once, and didn't take TWF for some reason). 6d6 > 3d8. The Rogue is dealing an average of 21 extra damage, while the Soulknife is dealing an average of 13 (max 24). Keep in mind that this is assuming the Rogue only manages to hit with one attack. It keeps up like this across the levels.

The only advantage Psychic Strike might have over Sneak Attack is that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or dex-less. However, this doesn't seem like much of a problem for our example 11th level Rogue, since improved invisibility has been available for the past four levels (it's even low enough level to fit in a wand).
Bopple
11-24-07, 08:16 PM In general, most of creatures immune to critical are also immune to mind-affecting, and vice versa.
There are exceptions;
There are creatures immune to critical, but susceptible to mind-affecting effects - like elementals and swarms.
There are creatures immune to mind-effecting, but susceptible to critical - like vermins.
But the racial difference is negligible. The real problem is Mind Blank.
Seriously, at 15th+ lvl, most class-based characters wouldn't wander around without Mind Blank.
Furthermore, with Penetrating Strike alternative class feature, rogue can sneak-attack the creature immune to critical.
Then stack up Swashbuckler classes and Daring Outlaw feat. The rogue get better BAB/skills/damage and comparable hp/save. Bleh.
CrimsonDeath
11-24-07, 09:21 PM He is still right, anyway. Psychic strike has the ability to affect anything with a mind (mind-affecting). Whether it actually can affect it or not depends on whether said creature is immune to mind-affecting.

So, "has the ability to affect" and "can affect" aren't semantically equivalent?
TheKeyofE
11-24-07, 09:48 PM sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind. Most constructs don't fall under that, but there are a goodly number of sentient undead. Pretty much any strong undead is probably sentient.

As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack
It says "living, non-mindless." Undead are out, even intelligent undead. Unless you're an illumine soul.
Moosh Nailo
11-25-07, 02:30 AM So, "has the ability to affect" and "can affect" aren't semantically equivalent?
I would word it "does affect", but yes, in my head they mean different things. To me, "has the ability to affect" means that it is not a 100% sure thing, merely that it is a possibility. As though there is an unwritten "if" tagged on the back. Whereas "can" means it is a guarantee. At least thats how I tried to use them, looking past the words and on to the meaning they string together.
I realize that going by what makes sense to me isn't the best way to post, but I don't know how else to explain it.

And Inkblot; I do not believe Sagetim was arguing that psychic strike is better than, just that it does have advantages over sneak attack. And I interpreted Fafnir's post as being fairly sarcastic, in a you're-wrong kinda way. I apologize if I misinterpreted, and for my snappy reply (which makes me a hypocrite anyway haha). My bad
draco1119
11-25-07, 03:37 AM So, Mind Strike, Swift has an unnecessary nerf added on, then?

What a surprise... :rolleyes:
Tedronai
11-25-07, 08:15 AM As much as I do feel that Psychic Strike is unnecessarily nerfed in many instances (and particularly in it's associated feats from that awe-inspiring Complete Psionic), I do also feel the need to point out that it's strength lies not in the dice of damage, but rather in the Knife to the Soul option gained at later levels.

"I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Intelligence; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..."
draco1119
11-25-07, 10:21 AM As much as I do feel that Psychic Strike is unnecessarily nerfed in many instances (and particularly in it's associated feats from that awe-inspiring Complete Psionic), I do also feel the need to point out that it's strength lies not in the dice of damage, but rather in the Knife to the Soul option gained at later levels.

"I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Intelligence; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..."
But... you don't get that until 13th level. That, in itself, hurts its utility.
InkBlot
11-25-07, 02:10 PM "I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Wisdom; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..."
Fixed. But really, that's just about the only nice thing the Soulknife has going for it. At higher levels it can one-hit-KO animals (are there even any CR 13+ animals?), and whittle down a caster's casting ability.

However, the Soulknife's attack bonus is low and he still has to hit on a normal melee attack against his target. Using knife to the soul against non-casters or non-animal-int targets is also pretty unwise. The stat damage doesn't stack with the HP damage that the soulknife's buddies are dealing. Either they'll take down the target first and the stat damage won't matter, or the soulknife will take down the target first and the HP damage won't matter. In both cases, it'll take longer to take down the target than if everybody were dealing HP damage to the target.

One nice ability doesn't make a good class. Swashbucklers and Marshals both get one nice ability, but people don't gripe about them so often because their respective nice abilities come soon enough to dip for them.

I just hope the soulknife makes it in 4e. 4e has a focus on making melee fun to play, and recognizes the striker role of the soulknife (speed bonus + tumble + situational damage boost = striker).
calronmoonflower
11-25-07, 04:00 PM Fixed. But really, that's just about the only nice thing the Soulknife has going for it. At higher levels it can one-hit-KO animals (are there even any CR 13+ animals?), and whittle down a caster's casting ability.

I think he was referring to hitting a likely dump stat and dropping them. However, I agree that Wisdom is a better choice.
CrimsonDeath
11-25-07, 04:57 PM I would word it "does affect", but yes, in my head they mean different things. To me, "has the ability to affect" means that it is not a 100% sure thing, merely that it is a possibility. As though there is an unwritten "if" tagged on the back. Whereas "can" means it is a guarantee. At least thats how I tried to use them, looking past the words and on to the meaning they string together.
I realize that going by what makes sense to me isn't the best way to post, but I don't know how else to explain it.

Well, the problem is that what you said in the first place isn't actually true.

For one thing, Psychic Strike doesn't say that it can affect any creature with a mind. It states that it deals damage to (affects) living, nonmindless targets (which rules out undead, since they're not living), and goes on to say that creatures who aren't subject to mind-affecting effects are immune to it (which makes undead doubly immune).
Moosh Nailo
11-26-07, 01:00 AM Oops.
Fafnir
11-26-07, 04:18 PM Sorry, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic or snappy. I just wrote the post in a hurry.
*runs away again*:incog:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_Luca_ 11-24-07, 08:57 AM	Hi guys, i'm wondering if the soulknife can drop his movement to add 1d8 damage each round. in other words can he add the extra damage each round (assuming he's continuing to drop the movement), or he should drop his movement first and then use the psychic strike in the next round? Many thanks for you replies!
draco1119 11-24-07, 10:58 AM	A soulknife can spend a move action to charge his psychic strike. He can do this every round. Of course, that means that he does that and either moves (taking a second move action) or does something else (taking a standard). There's a feat in Complete Psionic that lets you charge your Psichic Strike as a swift action... once per day. shakes head Is Psychic Strike so powerful that they couldn't let you just charge it as a swift?
Lycanthromancer 11-24-07, 01:21 PM	Is Psychic Strike so powerful that they couldn't let you just charge it as a swift?Yes. Especially considering how rogues can do so as a free action, and get multiple sneak attacks all round every round. Those d8s are overpowered, I tell you. Sneaky bastards.
Sagetim 11-24-07, 01:34 PM	Yes. Especially considering how rogues can do so as a free action, and get multiple sneak attacks all round every round. Those d8s are overpowered, I tell you. Sneaky bastards. Actually, yes, they can be. sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind. Most constructs don't fall under that, but there are a goodly number of sentient undead. Pretty much any strong undead is probably sentient. Also, most rogues would need someone to flank the foe they're trying to sneak attack, at least after the first round. Only exceptions would be if they have HIPS. Anywho, the soulknife has worked just fine for me so far. In fact my current one at level 3 can do more damage in one hit than any non hyperoptimized caster of comparable level. Before I start rambling....my point is that the psychic strike is more versatile than the basic sneak attack. And if you really need to hit undead alot, there's a specific prc for it. Hell, the first level of that prc gives psy strike the ability to affect mindless undead. And the third gives your mindblade a permanent undead bane effect for free. Have a nice day. And nice sarcasm lynch.
Fafnir 11-24-07, 02:04 PM	Actually, yes, they can be. sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind. Really? Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. That's actually a big difference there.
Moosh Nailo 11-24-07, 05:50 PM	Ok, Fafnir, you could understand what Sagetim was saying. No need to be snarky and nitpick details. This isn't a situation where that is required, no fine-tuning of rules involved. He is still right, anyway. Psychic strike has the ability to affect anything with a mind (mind-affecting). Whether it actually can affect it or not depends on whether said creature is immune to mind-affecting.
InkBlot 11-24-07, 08:01 PM	Moosh, Sagetim said that Soulknives have an advantage over Rogues, and then Fafnir proved that Soulknives do not have an advantage over Rogues. What's wrong with that? Just the facts that psychic strike damage comes so slowly, is so low, and that Rogues can sneak attack multiple times in a turn, make psychic strike far inferior to sneak attack. At 11th level, the Soulknife does 3d8 extra damage with psychic strike for spending a whole turn charging his blade and attacking, while the Rogue does 6d6 if he spends the whole turn attacking (and misses once, and didn't take TWF for some reason). 6d6 > 3d8. The Rogue is dealing an average of 21 extra damage, while the Soulknife is dealing an average of 13 (max 24). Keep in mind that this is assuming the Rogue only manages to hit with one attack. It keeps up like this across the levels. The only advantage Psychic Strike might have over Sneak Attack is that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or dex-less. However, this doesn't seem like much of a problem for our example 11th level Rogue, since improved invisibility has been available for the past four levels (it's even low enough level to fit in a wand).
Bopple 11-24-07, 08:16 PM	In general, most of creatures immune to critical are also immune to mind-affecting, and vice versa. There are exceptions; There are creatures immune to critical, but susceptible to mind-affecting effects - like elementals and swarms. There are creatures immune to mind-effecting, but susceptible to critical - like vermins. But the racial difference is negligible. The real problem is Mind Blank. Seriously, at 15th+ lvl, most class-based characters wouldn't wander around without Mind Blank. Furthermore, with Penetrating Strike alternative class feature, rogue can sneak-attack the creature immune to critical. Then stack up Swashbuckler classes and Daring Outlaw feat. The rogue get better BAB/skills/damage and comparable hp/save. Bleh.
CrimsonDeath 11-24-07, 09:21 PM	He is still right, anyway. Psychic strike has the ability to affect anything with a mind (mind-affecting). Whether it actually can affect it or not depends on whether said creature is immune to mind-affecting. So, "has the ability to affect" and "can affect" aren't semantically equivalent?
TheKeyofE 11-24-07, 09:48 PM	sneak attacks can't hit constructs, or undead. a psychic strike hits anything with a mind. Most constructs don't fall under that, but there are a goodly number of sentient undead. Pretty much any strong undead is probably sentient. As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack It says "living, non-mindless." Undead are out, even intelligent undead. Unless you're an illumine soul.
Moosh Nailo 11-25-07, 02:30 AM	So, "has the ability to affect" and "can affect" aren't semantically equivalent? I would word it "does affect", but yes, in my head they mean different things. To me, "has the ability to affect" means that it is not a 100% sure thing, merely that it is a possibility. As though there is an unwritten "if" tagged on the back. Whereas "can" means it is a guarantee. At least thats how I tried to use them, looking past the words and on to the meaning they string together. I realize that going by what makes sense to me isn't the best way to post, but I don't know how else to explain it. And Inkblot; I do not believe Sagetim was arguing that psychic strike is better than, just that it does have advantages over sneak attack. And I interpreted Fafnir's post as being fairly sarcastic, in a you're-wrong kinda way. I apologize if I misinterpreted, and for my snappy reply (which makes me a hypocrite anyway haha). My bad
draco1119 11-25-07, 03:37 AM	So, Mind Strike, Swift has an unnecessary nerf added on, then? What a surprise... :rolleyes:
Tedronai 11-25-07, 08:15 AM	As much as I do feel that Psychic Strike is unnecessarily nerfed in many instances (and particularly in it's associated feats from that awe-inspiring Complete Psionic), I do also feel the need to point out that it's strength lies not in the dice of damage, but rather in the Knife to the Soul option gained at later levels. "I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Intelligence; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..."
draco1119 11-25-07, 10:21 AM	As much as I do feel that Psychic Strike is unnecessarily nerfed in many instances (and particularly in it's associated feats from that awe-inspiring Complete Psionic), I do also feel the need to point out that it's strength lies not in the dice of damage, but rather in the Knife to the Soul option gained at later levels. "I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Intelligence; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..." But... you don't get that until 13th level. That, in itself, hurts its utility.
InkBlot 11-25-07, 02:10 PM	"I'm fighting Clerics today? I think I'll hit their Wisdom; slavering beasts will have difficulty deciding which spell to cast..." Fixed. But really, that's just about the only nice thing the Soulknife has going for it. At higher levels it can one-hit-KO animals (are there even any CR 13+ animals?), and whittle down a caster's casting ability. However, the Soulknife's attack bonus is low and he still has to hit on a normal melee attack against his target. Using knife to the soul against non-casters or non-animal-int targets is also pretty unwise. The stat damage doesn't stack with the HP damage that the soulknife's buddies are dealing. Either they'll take down the target first and the stat damage won't matter, or the soulknife will take down the target first and the HP damage won't matter. In both cases, it'll take longer to take down the target than if everybody were dealing HP damage to the target. One nice ability doesn't make a good class. Swashbucklers and Marshals both get one nice ability, but people don't gripe about them so often because their respective nice abilities come soon enough to dip for them. I just hope the soulknife makes it in 4e. 4e has a focus on making melee fun to play, and recognizes the striker role of the soulknife (speed bonus + tumble + situational damage boost = striker).
calronmoonflower 11-25-07, 04:00 PM	Fixed. But really, that's just about the only nice thing the Soulknife has going for it. At higher levels it can one-hit-KO animals (are there even any CR 13+ animals?), and whittle down a caster's casting ability. I think he was referring to hitting a likely dump stat and dropping them. However, I agree that Wisdom is a better choice.
CrimsonDeath 11-25-07, 04:57 PM	I would word it "does affect", but yes, in my head they mean different things. To me, "has the ability to affect" means that it is not a 100% sure thing, merely that it is a possibility. As though there is an unwritten "if" tagged on the back. Whereas "can" means it is a guarantee. At least thats how I tried to use them, looking past the words and on to the meaning they string together. I realize that going by what makes sense to me isn't the best way to post, but I don't know how else to explain it. Well, the problem is that what you said in the first place isn't actually true. For one thing, Psychic Strike doesn't say that it can affect any creature with a mind. It states that it deals damage to (affects) living, nonmindless targets (which rules out undead, since they're not living), and goes on to say that creatures who aren't subject to mind-affecting effects are immune to it (which makes undead doubly immune).
Moosh Nailo 11-26-07, 01:00 AM	Oops.
Fafnir 11-26-07, 04:18 PM	Sorry, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic or snappy. I just wrote the post in a hurry. runs away again:incog: