Post/Author/DateTime	Post
p9522935 11-02-07, 07:04 AM	Cerebremancer has a nifty trick with any psionic class. Start a Sorcerer with Precocious Apprentice. That Sorc can cast a 2nd level arcane spell. (The language of the rulebook says "a 2nd level" from "a school you have access to" but it would be perverse to suppose it could be a 2nd level divine spell. If the DM is inclined to say arcane caster have access to divine schools, I would guess that DM is highly nonstandard.) Put two levels in your favorite psionic class. Get the two necessary knowledge skills to 6 ranks. Use either Practiced Manifester or Psiotheurgist (if available) to boost ML. Bingo. You can take Cerebremancer as your 4th level. By contrast, I don't think there's a corresponding feat to allow a 1st level divine to cast a 2nd level divine spell, thus a corresponding trick won't work with Psychic Theurge. If one could take a 3rd level cleric and somehow use Practiced Manifester plus some other mystery feat to grant the ability to manifest powers at the 2nd level, then perhaps it could be done. But as of now, I don't see any way to make a build that takes Psychic Theurge as its 4th level.
deathbane 11-02-07, 08:16 AM	Cerebremancer has a nifty trick with any psionic class. Start a Sorcerer with Precocious Apprentice. That Sorc can cast a 2nd level arcane spell. (The language of the rulebook says "a 2nd level" from "a school you have access to" but it would be perverse to suppose it could be a 2nd level divine spell. If the DM is inclined to say arcane caster have access to divine schools, I would guess that DM is highly nonstandard.) Put two levels in your favorite psionic class. Get the two necessary knowledge skills to 6 ranks. Use either Practiced Manifester or Psiotheurgist (if available) to boost ML. Bingo. You can take Cerebremancer as your 4th level. By contrast, I don't think there's a corresponding feat to allow a 1st level divine to cast a 2nd level divine spell, thus a corresponding trick won't work with Psychic Theurge. If one could take a 3rd level cleric and somehow use Practiced Manifester plus some other mystery feat to grant the ability to manifest powers at the 2nd level, then perhaps it could be done. But as of now, I don't see any way to make a build that takes Psychic Theurge as its 4th level. That could be voided just because the wording says spells, and not spell.
InkBlot 11-02-07, 09:04 AM	If one could take a 3rd level cleric and somehow use Practiced Manifester plus some other mystery feat to grant the ability to manifest powers at the 2nd level, ... Ardent. Ardents determine the level of power they can learn according to their manifester level, not their class level. So a Cleric3/Ardent1 with Practiced Manifester can learn 2nd level powers.
Bacris 11-02-07, 09:43 AM	Ardent. Ardents determine the level of power they can learn according to their manifester level, not their class level. So a Cleric3/Ardent1 with Practiced Manifester can learn 2nd level powers. No they can't. The wording of the ardent is quite clear that at 1st level, they can only learn 1st level powers. It'd work for Ardent 2, not Ardent 1.
PhaedrusXY 11-02-07, 11:16 AM	That could be voided just because the wording says spells, and not spell.Oh god, not this again. How many spells do 4th level sorcerers know? I guess they don't qualify, either. Or if you meant how many can they cast, then neither do wizards with an Int too low to get a bonus spell. Per the RAW, yes, it works. It is not RAI, and alot of DMs will veto/houserule it. Also, there is a decent argument about why it doesn't work with something like Mystic Theurge, but I'm not going to repeat it. This has been discussed EXTENSIVELY on these boards many times...
deathbane 11-02-07, 11:53 AM	Oh god, not this again. How many spells do 4th level sorcerers know? I guess they don't qualify, either. Or if you meant how many can they cast, then neither do wizards with an Int too low to get a bonus spell. Per the RAW, yes, it works. It is not RAI, and alot of DMs will veto/houserule it. Also, there is a decent argument about why it doesn't work with something like Mystic Theurge, but I'm not going to repeat it. This has been discussed EXTENSIVELY on these boards many times... My quickest loss ever:eek:
JulesCARV 11-02-07, 12:20 PM	For cleric, you can take heighten spell and divine metamagic (heighten spell).
PhaedrusXY 11-02-07, 02:36 PM	My quickest loss ever:eek:It's not you. I'm just a big enough nerd to be around enough to see all the times this is brought up... I just thought of a horrible build... The Psychic Ur-Fist Monk 3/ Ardent 7/ Ur-Priest 2/ Psychic Theurge 8 With Tashalatora and Practiced Manifester... ML 19 with 9th level powers Greater Flurry 9th level cleric spells Turn Undead for DMM cheese Start off with Monk 3/ Ardent 2, then go into Ur-Priest, take and finish Psychic Theurge, then go back to Ardent. I didn't check to see if you can meet the prereqs, but it should be doable I think.
JulesCARV 11-02-07, 04:15 PM	Well, meeting the bluff, spellcraft, and knowledge (the planes) prerequisites for ur-priest might be tough. In fact, I don't see a way to meet the spellcraft prerequisite of the ur-priest until level 13. There's also the issue of just having enough skill points. In addition, there's the issue of feats: you get monk bonus feats, but no real "free" bonus feats, and this build is feat-hungry: you need iron will, spell focus (evil), monastic training (psychic theurge), and tashalatora just for the build, four feats. Then you're taking practiced manifester, for five. Then, presumably, you want a metamagic feat, along with divine metamagic, bringing it up to seven. If you're going for divine metamagic (persistent spell), we're talking eight. That's all for a human -- no room for practiced spellcaster (ur-priest) or the like. You might be able to find a way of making it work, but it'd be mighty tricky.
moebius00 11-02-07, 06:50 PM	It's not you. I'm just a big enough nerd to be around enough to see all the times this is brought up... I just thought of a horrible build... The Psychic Ur-Fist Monk 3/ Ardent 7/ Ur-Priest 2/ Psychic Theurge 8 Why would you even be a monk, through? Saves, Wis to AC and Evasion? Wouldn't the easiest build just be Human Cleric 1 (Trickery Domain for Bluff)/Ardent 4 (depending on Int for SP)/Ur-Priest 1/PT 9/Ardent 5?
vorpo 11-02-07, 07:52 PM	Cerebremancer has a nifty trick with any psionic class. Start a Sorcerer with Precocious Apprentice. That Sorc can cast a 2nd level arcane spell. (The language of the rulebook says "a 2nd level" from "a school you have access to" but it would be perverse to suppose it could be a 2nd level divine spell. I don't think there is any way you can add cleric spell to sorc's list that early. So this probably wouldn't work.
PhaedrusXY 11-03-07, 01:13 AM	Why would you even be a monk, through? Saves, Wis to AC and Evasion? Wouldn't the easiest build just be Human Cleric 1 (Trickery Domain for Bluff)/Ardent 4 (depending on Int for SP)/Ur-Priest 1/PT 9/Ardent 5?With Tashalatora, the build would have the unarmed strike damage and flurry of an 11th level monk. With a Monk's belt, that goes up to 16. If you could squeeze in Superior Unarmed Strike, you hit 20 (although as feat starved as it is, that would be tough). I'd play the build as a self-buffing unarmed "cleric". The psionic powers would just be to help out there, and maybe add some more versatility. Well, meeting the bluff, spellcraft, and knowledge (the planes) prerequisites for ur-priest might be tough. In fact, I don't see a way to meet the spellcraft prerequisite of the ur-priest until level 13. There's also the issue of just having enough skill points. In addition, there's the issue of feats: you get monk bonus feats, but no real "free" bonus feats, and this build is feat-hungry: you need iron will, spell focus (evil), monastic training (psychic theurge), and tashalatora just for the build, four feats. Then you're taking practiced manifester, for five. Then, presumably, you want a metamagic feat, along with divine metamagic, bringing it up to seven. If you're going for divine metamagic (persistent spell), we're talking eight. That's all for a human -- no room for practiced spellcaster (ur-priest) or the like. You might be able to find a way of making it work, but it'd be mighty tricky.Yeah, very good points. You could drop a level of monk for Human Paragon, and take Able Learner for the skills. Add two flaws, and I think it's doable, but it will still be tight. If the DM will let you progress Ardent manifesting with Human Paragon, it becomes easier. An actual level of cleric at the beginning might work also, if you don't lose the domain bonus feats and class skills from becoming an Ur-Priest. Anyway, it was just a crazy idea. It is always interesting to try and make multi-threat builds that can actually be strong. :D
Slagger the Chuul 11-03-07, 09:04 AM	Oh god, not this again. How many spells do 4th level sorcerers know? I guess they don't qualify, either. Or if you meant how many can they cast, then neither do wizards with an Int too low to get a bonus spell. Per the RAW, yes, it works. It is not RAI, and alot of DMs will veto/houserule it. Also, there is a decent argument about why it doesn't work with something like Mystic Theurge, but I'm not going to repeat it. This has been discussed EXTENSIVELY on these boards many times... That's backward. If you're going exactly by that sort of reading of the RAW, the requirement of "spells" would exclude 4th-level sorcerers as well, not allow Precocious Apprentice to work. Of course, that's not RAI, but you aren't working with RAI.
p9522935 11-03-07, 10:46 AM	For cleric, you can take heighten spell and divine metamagic (heighten spell). I don't think that grants a higher level spell slot. If the heightened spell is as hard to cast as a spell of the higher level, doesn't that mean that it uses a higher level spell slot?