Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DanteApollyon 09-05-07, 12:53 PM	Damage done at level 20 in one round in form of doom, with bite of the wolf and using a power like Breath of the Black Dragon or Energy Ball, I made a mistake and thought you could use both. My bad. But now that we know you cant here we go. You make your 3 normal attacks Then you make your 4 attacks with your tenticals Then you make your bite attack now using the powers Dissolving weapon and Dissolving touch you can add alot of bite to those attacks. You can use the quicken power feat to use the Breath of the black dragon as a quickened power, allowing you to use all of these at once. Still that is alot of damage to be done. The questions here would be could you use your psionic weapon feat and your psionic fist feat along with your quicken power feat at the same time, i doubt it sense they all require you expand your psionic focus to use. My point would be the psionic warrior is stronger than people give it credit for. here is a quick note of the strength in form of doom using strength of my enemy with my character Bruce who's str is 18. Normal strength 18 Form of doom. 22 Form of Doom + Str of my enemy max augmented for a strength of 44 which is like 1 below the strength of a great wyrm gold dragon. thats alot of boom behind those hits now. and that would last for 20 rounds so even after you expel your power points using things like breath of the black dragon and energy ball which you could use the maximize power feat to deal max damage which max augmented is 120 for each.
InkBlot 09-05-07, 01:29 PM	The questions here would be could you use your psionic weapon feat and your psionic fist feat along with your quicken power feat at the same time You can't. You can only expend your focus for one thing at a time. If you have a psicrystal and the Psicrystal Containment feat, then you can expend your psicrystal's focus instead of your own to fuel one of these feats. That's still only two. Since this build is level 20, anyone actually playing it could easily just wait another level and pick up the Epic Psionic Focus feat. Epic Psionic Focus allows you to power two feats each time you expend focus. Each time you take it, you can power another feat with the same focus.
Sagetim 09-05-07, 01:30 PM	Damage done at level 20 in one round in form of doom, with bite of the wolf and using a power like Breath of the Black Dragon or Energy Ball, I made a mistake and thought you could use both. My bad. But now that we know you cant here we go. You make your 3 normal attacks Then you make your 4 attacks with your tenticals Then you make your bite attack now using the powers Dissolving weapon and Dissolving touch you can add alot of bite to those attacks. You can use the quicken power feat to use the Breath of the black dragon as a quickened power, allowing you to use all of these at once. Still that is alot of damage to be done. The questions here would be could you use your psionic weapon feat and your psionic fist feat along with your quicken power feat at the same time, i doubt it sense they all require you expand your psionic focus to use. My point would be the psionic warrior is stronger than people give it credit for. here is a quick note of the strength in form of doom using strength of my enemy with my character Bruce who's str is 18. Normal strength 18 Form of doom. 22 Form of Doom + Str of my enemy max augmented for a strength of 44 which is like 1 below the strength of a great wyrm gold dragon. thats alot of boom behind those hits now. and that would last for 20 rounds so even after you expel your power points using things like breath of the black dragon and energy ball which you could use the maximize power feat to deal max damage which max augmented is 120 for each. wait...since when did psiwarriors get energy ball? did I miss the memo? Here's a quick note of why that's not exactly impressive: wizard casts time stop in the first round. They get 1 to 4 rounds to stack powerful spells against their foes. hmmm.... Quickened Firebrand as a second spell right after time stop. 15d6/ref Empowered Delayed blast fireball + quickened firebrand (45d6 fire damage with reflex saves) (1 round) Delayed blast Fireball + Quickened Firebrand ( using residual magic feat to empower DBFB another 45d6 fire with ref save) (round 2) now, thats already 105d6 damage in the first 'round' of combat. For added evil, the mage could use energy sub (sonic) for that ear shattering painy death feel. On the psionic flip side... Temporal Acceleration (augmented to 3 rounds, add in metapower and extend power feats to make it 6 'free' rounds). And don't forget psychic meditation. 1st normal time round- Empowered stygian conflagaration (1d4 +50% negative levels) 1st and subsequent rounds of temporal accel: regain focus and empowered stygian conflagarations. all in all: 7 instances of 1d4+50% negative level drains with no saving throw to avoid the level drain. hmmm...or throw empowered out and get 7d4+7 using augmented ability for the power. Instantly kill anything level 14 or lower, and have a good chance of killing anything of up to 28 HD, or weakening it to the point of being a pushover. of course, the psywar will have alot more staying power. After this kind of thing the wizard would be out of basic level 9 slots and the psion would be down by 152 power points.
Orenmir 09-05-07, 01:45 PM	For the OP... Did you have a question in there somewhere? Anyway, the only mistake you made was already addressed (about trying expend psionic focus too many times). Otherwise, yeah, PsyWar kicks some butt at level 20. Then again, a lot of classes kick butt at level 20 (equal to what you describe). By the way, don't bother with Dissolving Touch -- Dissipating Touch will give you more bang for your buck if you're spending 7 points or more (plus, it will hurt baddies with acid resistance/immunity).
DanteApollyon 09-05-07, 01:49 PM	The psywar can get energy ball or energy burst if you use the expanded knowledge feat that allows you get a power from another class. as long as you can manifest that level power.
DanteApollyon 09-05-07, 01:54 PM	dissipating touch has a power resistance ie spell resistance and dissolving touch does not, so you could use dissolving touch on say a dragon and not have to roll for its spell resistance where you would with dissipating touch.
kyeudo 09-05-07, 02:03 PM	Psiwarrior is balanced. He can pull tricks like you discribe, but would be sitting out the rest of the day. On the other hand, a Wizard, or even better a Cleric, can nova with just as much ridiculous power and still keep packing heat for the rest of the day.
Fireclave 09-05-07, 02:07 PM	wait...since when did psiwarriors get energy ball? did I miss the memo? The Expanded Knowledge feat allows you to learn one power from any manifesting list, though the power you learn must be one level lower than the highest level power you can manifest. and that would last for 20 rounds so even after you expel your power points using things like breath of the black dragon and energy ball which you could use the maximize power feat to deal max damage which max augmented is 120 for each. The maximum damage you could get at 20th level those two powers is 96 (112 with an Fire or Cold Energy Ball) with the Maximize Power feat (Base 11d6 for 11PP + 5d6 for 5PP + Maximize for 4PP). My point would be the psionic warrior is stronger than people give it credit for. I pity the foo' who can't see the psywar's strength and versatility :mrt:
Fafnir 09-05-07, 02:16 PM	The maximum damage you could get at 20th level those two powers is 96 (112 with an Fire or Cold Energy Ball) with the Maximize Power feat (Base 11d6 for 11PP + 5d6 for 5PP + Maximize for 4PP). You could also Empower the Ball for 94 (112 if Fire or Cold) average damage and a higher save DC.
DanteApollyon 09-05-07, 03:43 PM	energy Ball does 7d6 when augmented to max at level 20 it does 20 d6 + say 20 (your using fire subtype) now using the maximize power feat (which makes the power do max damage or mas healing even if the power is augmented so what is 6x20 120 then add the 20 and you get 140 damage. Its a nice mixture of feats and powers, i like this set up a lot. cause with cause pain like this the psywar still has his melee combat to work with.
kyeudo 09-05-07, 03:46 PM	energy Ball does 7d6 when augmented to max at level 20 it does 20 d6 + say 20 (your using fire subtype) now using the maximize power feat (which makes the power do max damage or mas healing even if the power is augmented so what is 6x20 120 then add the 20 and you get 140 damage. Its a nice mixture of feats and powers, i like this set up a lot. cause with cause pain like this the psywar still has his melee combat to work with. Metapsionic costs count against your manifester level cap, so you can't maximize a power and spend 20 power points augmenting it at 20th level.
Fireclave 09-05-07, 03:53 PM	energy Ball does 7d6 when augmented to max at level 20 it does 20 d6 + say 20 (your using fire subtype) now using the maximize power feat (which makes the power do max damage or mas healing even if the power is augmented so what is 6x20 120 then add the 20 and you get 140 damage. Its a nice mixture of feats and powers, i like this set up a lot. cause with cause pain like this the psywar still has his melee combat to work with. You're forgetting that the Maximize Power feat also adds a 4PP cost to your power. The total cost of your power still cannot exceed your manifester level, so you cannot augment energy ball fully and maximize it at the same time. IOW, if you agument energy ball to a 20PP cost to deal 20d6+20 damage (assuming you're using fire), you can't maximize it as well because that would make the power cost 24PP while your manifester level is only 20.
Bacris 09-05-07, 11:34 PM	The general consensus I've seen on these forums, especially by most of the board regulars, is that the psywar is probably one of the best balanced classes in the game - it can do some great things, but also has some weaknesses, isn't a one-trick pony, and can fill needed roles, without being overpowered or useless. I don't know any informed psionic players who think the psywar is weak (except maybe needing about a 25% increase in his power point pool).
mod5000 09-06-07, 12:01 AM	Psionics + Tome of Battle is generally considered the "balanced" stuff in D&D. I'd personally like to add in Magic of Incarnum just for how versatile it is, but Incarnum doesn't get much love, and might even be a little underpowered, though not by very much. Also love the stuff that came with PHB2... great book.
Sagetim 09-06-07, 02:24 AM	On the subject of incarnum....it seems like a big pain in the ass. Might be because I prefer characters who can be useful without their crap. 'missing my sword? no problem, I'll smite them with my bare hands!' 'he broke my silver mace? no problem, I can still use my Mindblade to stab the werewolf' 'hmmm, stole my pants eh? well he can suck a fireball!' 'oh noes, my armor is gone....oh well, not like it's the end of the world, I can still pray for buffs to replace my armor.' 'items? who needs that crap? I can do just fine bare naked beating things with my fists and feet.' 'items? who needs that crap? I'll make their heads explode with the power of my MIND.'
CrimsonDeath 09-06-07, 04:04 AM	On the subject of incarnum....it seems like a big pain in the ass. Might be because I prefer characters who can be useful without their crap. 'missing my sword? no problem, I'll smite them with my bare hands!' 'he broke my silver mace? no problem, I can still use my Mindblade to stab the werewolf' 'hmmm, stole my pants eh? well he can suck a fireball!' 'oh noes, my armor is gone....oh well, not like it's the end of the world, I can still pray for buffs to replace my armor.' 'items? who needs that crap? I can do just fine bare naked beating things with my fists and feet.' 'items? who needs that crap? I'll make their heads explode with the power of my MIND.' And how is "They broke my sword? No problem, I'll make a new one from the souls of my dead ancestors!" not a part of this pattern?
InkBlot 09-06-07, 08:41 AM	Yeah. Incarnum is where you go if you want to be completely free from magic items. 99.99% of all Soulmelds specify that they can't be disarmed, sundered, or otherwise taken away from you. Forget Soulknife. If you want a "Soulknife" you take the Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon) or levels of Soulborn (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=882058). And incarnum isn't just the souls of your dead ancestors. It's also the souls of your unborn children. Incarnum posits that all souls are just smaller chunks of a great sea of souls (like how all thoughts are just waves in the astral plane), and that you can funnel that soul stuff (atma, prana, incarnum, whatever) to empower thoughtforms (tulpas). I guess you could say you're specifically reaching out to the souls of your ancestors to form your soulmelds, but by default it's all souls that aren't already being used. Psionics + Tome of Battle is generally considered the "balanced" stuff in D&D. I'd personally like to add in Magic of Incarnum just for how versatile it is, but Incarnum doesn't get much love, and might even be a little underpowered, though not by very much. Also love the stuff that came with PHB2... great book. And Pact Magic! Don't forget about pact magic. Mmmmm... all the Faustian demon summoning flavor with none of the calories!
DanteApollyon 09-06-07, 12:16 PM	in our current game my friend is playing a soulmeld and im playing a Psywar, it makes for some intresting play though, our group is composed of. Me-PSywar Player 1. Soul meld. Player 2. Psion Player 3. Rouge Player 4. Fighter. Player 5. cleric.
metatheurgist 09-06-07, 12:57 PM	in our current game my friend is playing a soulmeld and im playing a Psywar, it makes for some intresting play though, our group is composed of. Me-PSywar Player 1. Soul meld. Player 2. Psion Player 3. Rouge Player 4. Fighter. Player 5. cleric. This gets mispelled so often on so many boards. Maybe we should put in a petition for an official name change in 4.0. Or someone should create the prestige class? :P
Sagetim 09-06-07, 01:11 PM	And how is "They broke my sword? No problem, I'll make a new one from the souls of my dead ancestors!" not a part of this pattern? really? I wasn't aware of that...I thought it was a little more simple than that. Like, having an item of legacy or something. Where it can be taken away, stolen, broke, etc.
Orenmir 09-06-07, 01:39 PM	This gets mispelled so often on so many boards. Maybe we should put in a petition for an official name change in 4.0. Or someone should create the prestige class? :P I don't think most Rogues would tolerate being called Rouge. Unless they wear makeup. ;)
Sagetim 09-06-07, 01:43 PM	I don't think most Rogues would tolerate being called Rouge. Unless they wear makeup. ;) hmmm, it'd be one helluva prc. The power to transform into women's makeup and spy on people....could be deadly though, especially if you turned into makeup that runs when hit by water (crying person = death for the rouge) or perhaps being crushed unto death when someone goes in for a kiss. Ouch...death by lips....
InkBlot 09-06-07, 02:45 PM	in our current game my friend is playing a soulmeld and im playing a Psywar, it makes for some intresting play though, our group is composed of. A soulmeld is the incarnum-equivalent of a spell. Your character can't be a spell, and he can't be a soulmeld either (not while he's alive, anyway). A person who shapes soulmelds is called a meldshaper. A person who uses incarnum is called in incarnum user. You can use incarnum without using soulmelds, like you can be psionic without being able to manifest powers. really? I wasn't aware of that...I thought it was a little more simple than that. Like, having an item of legacy or something. Where it can be taken away, stolen, broke, etc. In terms of rules-mechanics, legacy items are a bizzilion times more complex than incarnum. Incarnum is simple. You have x points of essentia. You can put up to y points in any one soulmeld. Each soulmeld does something, and does another thing per z points of essentia invested in it. Even a 20th level Incarnate won't have more than about 30 essentia, and can only put 6 points of essentia into any one soulmeld, so the math is much simpler as well. Also, essentia doesn't get used up. You can move it around from meld to meld, but it's always there. So in the morning you can put a point in your incarnate weapon, and two points in your pegasus cloak. Then later in the day you could shift all three of your essentia into the incarnate weapon when you really need to hit. You don't have to worry about levels of abilities either. Every soulmeld is available at 1st level. If your class doesn't grant it to you, or if you don't have levels in an incarnum class, then you can take Shape Soulmeld to get any soulmeld you want. Greater abilities are handled via investing more essentia into the soulmelds.
CrimsonDeath 09-06-07, 03:36 PM	Incarnum is simple. You have x points of essentia. You can put up to y points in any one soulmeld. Each soulmeld does something, and does another thing per z points of essentia invested in it. Even a 20th level Incarnate won't have more than about 30 essentia, and can only put 6 points of essentia into any one soulmeld, so the math is much simpler as well. Also, essentia doesn't get used up. You can move it around from meld to meld, but it's always there. So in the morning you can put a point in your incarnate weapon, and two points in your pegasus cloak. Then later in the day you could shift all three of your essentia into the incarnate weapon when you really need to hit. You don't have to worry about levels of abilities either. Every soulmeld is available at 1st level. If your class doesn't grant it to you, or if you don't have levels in an incarnum class, then you can take Shape Soulmeld to get any soulmeld you want. Greater abilities are handled via investing more essentia into the soulmelds. Then there are Chakra binds-- Certain Soulmelds can be made more powerful in certain ways by causing them to take up an item slot as though they were items (but they still can't be stolen, only unshaped, and there are very few ways to unshape a soulmeld). A couple of things I don't get though. First, does the Shape Soulmeld feat allow someone with levels in a meldshaping class to shape an additional soulmeld, or does it just add that particular soulmeld to the available list? Second, if a non-meldshaper takes the feat twice, does he have to choose each morning which one he shapes, or does he get both?
DanteApollyon 09-06-07, 08:16 PM	A soulmeld is the incarnum-equivalent of a spell. Your character can't be a spell, and he can't be a soulmeld either (not while he's alive, anyway). A person who shapes soulmelds is called a meldshaper. A person who uses incarnum is called in incarnum user. You can use incarnum without using soulmelds, like you can be psionic without being able to manifest powers. In terms of rules-mechanics, legacy items are a bizzilion times more complex than incarnum. Incarnum is simple. You have x points of essentia. You can put up to y points in any one soulmeld. Each soulmeld does something, and does another thing per z points of essentia invested in it. Even a 20th level Incarnate won't have more than about 30 essentia, and can only put 6 points of essentia into any one soulmeld, so the math is much simpler as well. Also, essentia doesn't get used up. You can move it around from meld to meld, but it's always there. So in the morning you can put a point in your incarnate weapon, and two points in your pegasus cloak. Then later in the day you could shift all three of your essentia into the incarnate weapon when you really need to hit. You don't have to worry about levels of abilities either. Every soulmeld is available at 1st level. If your class doesn't grant it to you, or if you don't have levels in an incarnum class, then you can take Shape Soulmeld to get any soulmeld you want. Greater abilities are handled via investing more essentia into the soulmelds. yeah i keep forgetting his class
metatheurgist 09-07-07, 09:02 AM	I don't think most Rogues would tolerate being called Rouge. Unless they wear makeup. ;) It's just french for Red. In this part of the world "Red" is a common nickname. We already have a psionic creature named "Blue"... :)
Fafnir 09-07-07, 11:36 AM	Then I'll play a Rogue called John, nicknamed Jaune le Rouge. :P How does it sounds to you? :D
WyvernSlayer 09-07-07, 02:04 PM	PW is def one of the best classes ever made in regards to balance. He can run with the big boys and fulfill many needed roles, and consumes less of your parties other resources compared to other classes. As far as doling out damage goes, yes PW can deal ridiculous amounts with the right setup, and they're have been a few designs that have come and gone that can stress that.