Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danzibr 03-05-07, 08:37 PM	Heya, I've been wanting to make a Pyrokineticist for quite a while. They just seem to be one of the fun PrC's, though maybe not the best. I started to make a Psion 5/Pyro, but didn't like him too much, so now I ask, what base class would be best? I have a few things in mind. First of all, I probably want to stay away from a caster because Pyro grants to bonus to any type of caster levels. Classes I've considered are Psychic Warrior (which goes against what I just said, but hey)... and Mindblade. I was thinking of Monk or Paladin, but the alignment doesn't work. Well, here's the builds I was thinking. Take a bunch of whip feats and just focus on using the whip, or maybe going two weapons and have both of them be flaming weapons... or maybe take some class with good cha (Bard, maybe?) and use Bolt of Fire until Heat Death and Conflagration. Even so, I have no idea what race to go. For melee, Goliath maybe... but beyond that, I don't know. So, long story short, anyone have ideas for Pyro builds? Thanks in advance. Dan
Angelflesh 03-05-07, 10:22 PM	Well, a Psion with the Psychokinesis discipline that focuses on pyrokinetic powers, and uses fire as the energy type for energy powers is a Pyrokineticist.
UnrelentingHoror 03-05-07, 10:55 PM	Wells I've always wanted to make a character that was fighter 4, Something that has concentration as a class skill 1, then go into pyrokineticest meeting the power point requirement by taking wild talent as a feat. You could probably do something really mean by using some of your fighter feats to pick up improved unarmed strike, then improved grapple so when you get that top end explosion thing thats centered on you..... well i don't think people get reflex saves while grapled now do they :D Just some thoughts.
cog_n_taz 03-05-07, 11:01 PM	Soulknife/Pyro works well. Go dual wield with a flame whip and flaming bastard sword. When you're done, throw the MB, grapple someone, and nimbus 'em.
Andreas0815 03-06-07, 06:21 AM	I think Bard 3/fighter 2 or Bard 1/Fighter 4 is a really nice combo to get into pyrokinetist...
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 10:19 AM	I never thought about bard/pyro. That's interesting. Rangers make fun pyros, especially if you go for ranged combat. You definitely want a base class that gives you some versatility, especially for fighting those inevitable fire-immune monsters. You can't go wrong with ray specialization when you're going pyro, either. Weapon Focus (ray) and Improved Critical (ray) help out a ton with flame lash and fire bolt.
danzibr 03-06-07, 04:15 PM	I just thought of a question. Can you use your flaming weapon ability on your fire whip? I think I'm leaning towards some combination of Bard and Fighter. If you went Fighter 1/Bard 4 you'd have +4 to BAB, cast second level bards spells (with a high enough cha, anyways) and... well, that's what strikes me as important. If you drop a level of bard and pick up a level of fighter you lose the third second level spells but gain another feat (and your overall saves are one worse). Or maybe Bard 1/Figher 4. In which case, I totally agree with Andreas0815. And... sorry, SlanderPanic, but I don't really understand. Are ranged touch attacks considered rays? If so, I'm totally understanding, and also that's a great suggestion. Oh, and UnrelentingHorror... this leads me into my next question. Should I go as some race with natural power points or some other race? I think a Dragonborn Mongrelperson (can't remember exactly, Races of Destiny) would be neat. LA of +0, +6 to con, -2 to dex, -2 to wis (I think) and -4 to cha. The cha penalty is harsh, though. Actually, I may lean towards a dextrous race and take weapon finesse and focus on whips, but racial tips are quite welcome. Lastly, cog_n_taz, what do you by "nimbus 'em"? I mean, I know what nimbus does, but would you activate the nimbus then next round move in and start a grapple... but the nimbus lets you make a touch attack as opposed to an unarmed strike. Hmm, I need to look up stuff on grappling. Anyways, thank you everyone for helping me out here. I think I'm close to deciding on a character. EDIT: Also, I should have said I kind of want to stay away from dual wielding because it eats all yer feats. And what I was trying to get at with the races is if you play as a naturally psionic race you don't have to sacrifice a feat for wild talent. Dan
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 04:44 PM	Are ranged touch attacks considered rays? That's what a ray is, and why rays are so effective, even for low-BAB wizards and sorcerors.
danzibr 03-06-07, 04:53 PM	Well I'll be... I always thought only certain spells were rays (which is partially true, but hence my how I erred). Anyways, thanks for clarifying that and you certainly bring new light to my eyes. I think I'll do that, go some sort of combo fighter bard and specialize in rays. Dan
Manus 03-06-07, 05:25 PM	Keep in mind... that while all rays are touch attacks, NOT all touch attacks are rays. This is important because some features of the game specifically block against or augment rays. These features do not affect garden variety ranged touch attacks UNLESS those attacks are specifically mentioned as being rays.
danzibr 03-06-07, 07:37 PM	So are are non-ranged touch attacks not rays or are there also non-ranged touch attacks that are rays? In other words, rays are stricly long-ranged and other touch attacks are not? Or in more other words, you have two categories of touch attacks: rays and short-ranged? Hopefully what I'm getting it makes sense. And thanks everyone for your insight. Dan
JiCi 03-06-07, 08:19 PM	According to Complete Arcane, Weapon Focus can be applied to touch spells and ranged spells, and so is Imrpoved Critical. Fire Bolt is a psi-like ability, so you can take Weapon Focus (ranged powers) and Imrpoved Critical (ranged powers). The term "Ray" is only applied so far for the Split Ray metamagic feat, and it's not to be confused with the term "Missile". "Missile" and "Ray" are considered ranged spells/powers for the purpose of Weapon Focus. So you take it, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with manifesting a ranged power, whether is a ray or a missile.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 10:37 PM	Actually, Weapon Focus (ray) is specifically mentioned in the PHB. And I specified above, ray attacks are ranged touch attacks. Melee touch attacks don't count as rays. (Though you can take Weapon Focus and the like for touch attacks and can also apply Weapon Finesse to them.) Zen Archery's also a nice one for a psychic warrior/Pyro, since you're likely to have a good Wisdom score.
danzibr 03-06-07, 11:18 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11690027&posted=1#post11690027 ties into what we've been talking about. Anyways, what's Zen Archery and what book can I find it in? Also, I hadn't planned on having a high wisdom since I hadn't planned on being a Psychic Warrior... but yeah, makes good sense. As for now I'm leaning towards a highly charismatic Bard 3/Fighter 2 or Bard 4/Fighter 1. The high cha would help out with later Pyro abilities... and cha gets style points. Dan
ShadowWarrior 03-06-07, 11:20 PM	Weapon Focus (Ray) has been replaced by Weapon Focus (Ranged Spells) since Complete Arcane. The psionic version would be Weapon Focus (ranged powers) but all in all it's no big deal if a DM rule 0s that Weapon Focus (ranged spells) works with powers.
danzibr 03-07-07, 08:05 AM	Ahh... I realize this post has strayed from its original purpose as ideas for base class of a Pyrokineticist to technical details on rays and such. So... will someone be so kind as to give a few races and say why they think they'd be good Pyros? Then, a list of base classes? I'll start. Elan would not be a good choice because of the cha penalty. Obviously, anything with a + to cha would be. Beyond that... playing a Maenad or Xeph would give the power points to not have to take Wild Talent (or basically, extra feat as opposed to other options). I don't want to play a human. I also must consider the fact that I'll have two classes... well. As for base classes, I'm thinking Psychic Warrior would be decent because some decent low level abilities (the ones that give + to AC, do not recall specifics), but they don't have good BAB. So I'm leaning more towards Fighter 4/Bard 1 (good BAB and feats), or Fighter 2/Bard 3 (still good BAB but one less feat but Bard stuff) or even Fighter 1/Bard 4 (one less feat but one higher level spells). As for builds I'm thinking of specializing in whips. I mean, I could go Wizard, Sorcerer or Psion and specialize in ranged touch attacks. Could be neat. But as for whips, the fire whip is a ranged touch attack so they neglect a good bit of AC... plus whips get style points. Lastly, does the flaming weapon ability of the Pyro stack with the whip? I don't see why not, but maybe I'm not seeing something. Thanks for helping in advance. Dan
Doomed_Penguin 03-07-07, 08:39 AM	I thought you were going to turn the Pyrokineticist into a 20 level base class, because I thought that's what your title meant. But if you aren't, then I will. Cause it sounds like a cool idea. I'll write it up and post it on psionics boards when I get home from school. Thanks for the inspiration!
danzibr 03-07-07, 09:10 AM	That's actually a really good idea, I think. I can see how many people would be opposed to it simply because "you shouldn't change PrCs into base classes." But look at Soulknife. That used to be a prestige class. Still, I support your project. Dan
cthascott 03-07-07, 10:15 AM	Bhukas and Ashtari from Sandstorm would be the right flavor and Desert Elves from the Unearthed Arcana. But Half-Giant would be my choice. They get bonuses on saves against fire effects, powerful build for the fighting side of things, and a power point reserve. Hope I helped. Peace. CthaS
SlanderPanic 03-07-07, 10:25 AM	Zen Archery is a feat that allows you to use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dex modifier for ranged attacks. It's great for a ranged psychic warrior, since it cuts out multiple-ability dependency. Instead of needing two high scores to function effectively, you only need one. As for races, given that you're going for a high-Charisma ranged-type, gnomes, dromites, and half-elves are probably your best bets. Only one of those races (the dromite) has a Charisma bonus, but they're all geared toward being good bards. Also, never underestimate the value of extra skill points and a bonus feat; humans are, in my opinion, the very best race in the current edition. There's nothing that says weapon afire can't be used on a flame lash, but it smacks of cheddar to me. I know I'm suggesting a lot of feats here, but I'd consider taking Improved Disarm at some point, too. Nothing says "pwnt" quite like stealing someone's shield, weapon, and amulet from 15 feet away and then pummeling them with blasts of fire.
danzibr 03-07-07, 01:20 PM	Zen Archery is a feat that allows you to use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dex modifier for ranged attacks. It's great for a ranged psychic warrior, since it cuts out multiple-ability dependency. Instead of needing two high scores to function effectively, you only need one. As for races, given that you're going for a high-Charisma ranged-type, gnomes, dromites, and half-elves are probably your best bets. Only one of those races (the dromite) has a Charisma bonus, but they're all geared toward being good bards. Also, never underestimate the value of extra skill points and a bonus feat; humans are, in my opinion, the very best race in the current edition. There's nothing that says weapon afire can't be used on a flame lash, but it smacks of cheddar to me. I know I'm suggesting a lot of feats here, but I'd consider taking Improved Disarm at some point, too. Nothing says "pwnt" quite like stealing someone's shield, weapon, and amulet from 15 feet away and then pummeling them with blasts of fire. Ahh, so it replaces your dex bonus rather than stacks... hmm. Also, Dromites and Half-Giants have a LA of +1, right? I'm trying to stay away from that... but we'll see. Also, I like humans but it just seems I always play them, so for now I want to stay away. But Desert Elves... it says -2 Str +2 Dex in addition to Elf traits, so that's a net of +4 Dex. I like it. So thanks, cthascott. Don't have access to Sandstorm, though. And the fire leash or whatever it's called is made out of ectoplasm (whatever that is, some junk from the ethereal plane or something). So why not set it on fire? Come to think of it, Desert Elf Pyro makes sense. Thanks for your input and I'll be sure to post my char whenever I'm done. Dan
SlanderPanic 03-07-07, 02:09 PM	Actually, desert elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertEl ves) are available in the SRD. Establishing the race's presence and flavor in the campaign is up to you and your DM. You can't really set the fire lash on fire, since it's already on fire and is, in fact, made of fire. However, you could theoretically charge it with more psionic energy, making it burn hotter... thus stacking weapon afire onto it.
danzibr 03-07-07, 04:02 PM	"Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action." Good call. And also good call with the burning fiercer. Makes sense to me... it's like augmenting powers. Actually, it seems exactly like that. Come to think of it... would Bard or Psychic Warrior be a better class? Bard (obviously) gets bard spells and some music whereas Psychic Warrior gets bonus feats and access to Psionic stuff. Bard has good R and W saves whereas PsyWar gets good F save... actually, Psychic Warrior simply looks like a better class. So here's what I'm thinking: Desert Elf Focus on dex and cha Take 2 levels in both Psychic Warrior and Fighter (4 bonus feats, sweet), then one in either. Focus on whip feats. Yeah, this looks like it'll be fun. I don't know about how good my char will be, but fun nonetheless. Dan
SlanderPanic 03-07-07, 04:46 PM	Seems to me like your primary reasons for taking bard levels are whip proficiency (which you don't need to use fire lash) and Charisma synergy. Make no mistake: Bard/pyro can be a fun party-support combo. I can even think of some interesting backstories for one. If you're going to go psychic warrior, I wouldn't bother with fighter levels. About the only reason why a psychic warrior should ever dip into fighter is to get Weapon Specialization, but honestly, a psychic warrior doesn't need it. If I remember to do so, I'll whip up a quick, ten-level, ranged-specializing pyro build when I get home from work.
danzibr 03-07-07, 08:59 PM	Now that I think about it, I think I'll go Fighter 1/Bard 4. That extra feat isn't too important, and Bards are more flavorful. Actually, the only reason I wouldn't go Bard 5 is because there doesn't seem to be a good reason to take that fifth level. Yeah, now that I think about, first two levels in Bard, then one in fighter and last two in bard. I don't know what would maximize the feats I want the most. I think I'd want to just be a whip master, more or less, at least combat-wise. The spells and other abilities and such be auxiliary. I just thought of something. If I try to whip sunder someone's weapon away at 15 feet but they only have 5 or 10 foot reach it still provokes an AoO but they can't swing? Sweet. I'll be taking five foot steps back a lot :P And thanks a lot for being willing to write up a build. I think I'll write one up tomorrow between classes. Dan
danzibr 03-08-07, 12:35 PM	No-name the Desert Elf Stats start at 6 with a static 42 point buy (for an average stat of 13) Base stats: 14 str (8 p.), 16 dex (10 p.), 14 con (8 p.), 12 int (6 p.), 10 wis (4 p.), 16 cha (10 p.) After racial mod: 12 str, 20 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 16 cha Skills: focus on Concentrate, Perform (baton twirling) and Handle Animal Starting equip: light armor, whip, don’t care for everything else Bard level 1 Level 1 feat: Wild Talent (gah, wish I could get rid of this) Bard level 2 Bard level 3 Level 3 feat: Whip Finesse Bard level 4 Stat point: probably cha Fighter level 1 (5) Bonus feat: Improved Initiative Pyro level 1 (6) Level 6 feat: Whip Focus Pyro level 2 (7) Pyro level 3 (8) Stat point: probably cha again Pyro level 4 (9) Level 9 feat: Improved Crit (whip) However, I do not think I like the order of feats here, so alternatively Fighter level 1 Feats: Improved Initiative, Wild Talent Fighter level 2 Feat: Whip Finesse (though not yet proficient with whip) Bard level 1 (3) Feat: Whip Focus Bard 2, Bard 3 Pyro level 1 (6) Feat: unsure Another alternative: Bard level 1 Feat: Wild Talent Fighter level 1 Feat: Whip Finesse (or does this work?) Fighter level 2 Feats: Improved Initiative, etc So there’s some ideas. Any input is appreciated. I would like Spring Attack, but having both Dodge and Mobility as prereq’s are kind of tough. Very open to suggestions (even “play a human!”). Dan
SlanderPanic 03-08-07, 01:39 PM	Well. Weapon Finesse doesn't need to be for a specific weapon. Take the feat once and it works for every qualifying weapon you use. You're better off taking Weapon Focus (ray) or (ranged spells) than Weapon Focus (whip) because the former will help when you get fire bolt. The latter only helps your whip attacks. The same applies to Improved Critical. Improved Initiative is never a waste of a feat. Not ever. Aside from that, it all looks good. You might want to consider heading toward Improved Disarm, like I said before.
danzibr 03-08-07, 03:56 PM	Ahh... Improved Disarm is pretty neat. Well, I knew of it before, but... well, what I'm getting at is it has 13 Int and Combat Expertise for prereqs, and I didn't really want either, but hey, sure may be worth it. I guess if I want so many feats I could take 4 levels in Fighter and just 1 in Bard. And come to think of it... how useful is Spring Attack? I like it in general, but you can take a five foot step before you attack. And which weapons can trip? And... that's all from me. Thanks for your feedback. Dan
danzibr 03-08-07, 10:21 PM	Oh my gosh... I just realized that the -2 Str +2 Dex replaced the normal Elf abilities, not stack. So the only LA +0 with +4 Dex is an Air Goblin, and there's no way I'm being a Goblin (okay, I'll consider it, but I'd rather not). So maybe... human it is! I still need to figure out how I want to work the feats. Seems reasonable though. On a side note, how useful is Spring Attack? Dan
SlanderPanic 03-10-07, 11:06 AM	I've never used Spring Attack, so I couldn't tell you. Theoretically, it's great for rogues and other high-mobility melee-types. You dash in long enough to get into a momentary flanking position, take a swipe, then dash out and absorb the enemy's AoOs on your way out. Since you get that +4 dodge bonus from Mobility, said AoOs will probably miss and thus are wasted. Every action the enemy wastes on you is an action he can't use on your friends. Action absorption is where trip attacks come in handy. With fire lash, a pyro can make trip attacks from 15 feet away. Every action an enemy has to waste getting up is an action he can't use to kill your party members. Since a trip is a single attack, you can use it for AoOs, too, and you threaten a nice, wide space with your fire lash. If you have a good Dex and still have an empty feat slot, taking Combat Reflexes is disgustingly useful. In fact, I think I'm going to work on a psion/pyro or lurk/pyro build that uses the Combat Expertise feat tree and fire lash for battlefield control. Imagine a Whirlwind Attack with that kind of reach...
danzibr 03-10-07, 11:32 AM	I've never used Spring Attack, so I couldn't tell you. Theoretically, it's great for rogues and other high-mobility melee-types. You dash in long enough to get into a momentary flanking position, take a swipe, then dash out and absorb the enemy's AoOs on your way out. Since you get that +4 dodge bonus from Mobility, said AoOs will probably miss and thus are wasted. Every action the enemy wastes on you is an action he can't use on your friends. Action absorption is where trip attacks come in handy. With fire lash, a pyro can make trip attacks from 15 feet away. Every action an enemy has to waste getting up is an action he can't use to kill your party members. Since a trip is a single attack, you can use it for AoOs, too, and you threaten a nice, wide space with your fire lash. If you have a good Dex and still have an empty feat slot, taking Combat Reflexes is disgustingly useful. In fact, I think I'm going to work on a psion/pyro or lurk/pyro build that uses the Combat Expertise feat tree and fire lash for battlefield control. Imagine a Whirlwind Attack with that kind of reach... Amazing. I think I'll specialize in AoO and tripping. If any enemy passes through a threatened area they provoke an AoO, right? So if they have a five foot reach they'd have to get adjacent and I could get an AoO on them... nice. Thanks for the idea. Dan
SlanderPanic 03-10-07, 03:00 PM	Exactly. Anyone who moves out of a square you threaten provokes an AoO, even if they're moving into another square you threaten. That's why reach is such a powerful ability and why Tumble is such a useful skill. You are learning well, my young Padawan.
danzibr 03-10-07, 03:30 PM	Exactly. Anyone who moves out of a square you threaten provokes an AoO, even if they're moving into another square you threaten. That's why reach is such a powerful ability and why Tumble is such a useful skill. You are learning well, my young Padawan. Ahh, I love Star Wars. So much. So if Mr. Orc approaches me I get an AoO when he steps into the square 2 squares away (or from the third to second square of my whip range), then another adjacent (because he's moving from my second square to my first). So I whip him twice before he even gets to me. And if my Dex is, say, 24 or 26 (Air Goblin, anyone? Followed up with some gloves and a couple level stat points) then that's 7 or 8 AoO. And if I understood you right then you can also trip people with an AoO. So I whip him once and trip him. Hmm, are there any feats that increase reach with a weapon? Just stand in the center of a 45' hallway, bwahaha... if not, that's still a 35' hallway (Pyro in center, 15' on either side). I know what build I'm going. And a Lurk is from Complete Psionic? Have to look into it... But man, I just don't like Goblins. Right now I'm making a class (and PrC, though that's not coming along as well) which I lovingly name the Electrokineticist. Guess what it's about! Anyways, I'm trying to make it different enough to not be insipid. And thank you for all of your tutelage, Master. Dan
danzibr 03-14-07, 07:58 PM	From SRD: "Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you." Unless I'm mistaken, my hopes are crushed. I assume the fire lash still does damage (since it's fire damage instead of normal), but if you attack a foe (and you're in their threat range) then they get an AoO, and furthermore, the fire lash doesn't have a threat range? Man, that stinks. The whip is not near as good as I thought :weep: But hey, at least they're good at disarming. Dan
SlanderPanic 03-15-07, 04:08 PM	I'd ignore the armor bit, since you're doing fire damage. I'd also ignore the part about not threatening, since you're doing lethal damage with the whip. Attacking with and manifesting the fire lash do provoke AoOs, the former because it's a ranged attack and the latter because it's a psi-like ability. (You can manifest the lash defensively, though.)