Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cigaran 03-04-08, 03:25 PM	OK so it's a 15 foot whip of unstable ectoplasm that's on fire. It can qualify for both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Given all of that, do the following still apply while using Flame Lash: Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Commodore_Reddington 03-04-08, 05:38 PM	OK so it's a 15 foot whip of unstable ectoplasm that's on fire. It can qualify for both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Given all of that, do the following still apply while using Flame Lash: Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier. It says that all feats that apply to the use of a standard whip also apply to it. so finess,imp disarm, and imp trip yes. I dont know about the +2 on disarm checks it uses a ranged touch attack, not a normal attack. No extra STR
Commodore_Reddington 03-04-08, 05:41 PM	I forgot. It's still a ranged weapon, so it still provokes attacks of opportunity.
cigaran 03-04-08, 05:43 PM	It says that all feats that apply to the use of a standard whip also apply to it. so finess,imp disarm, and imp trip yes. I dont know about the +2 on disarm checks it uses a ranged touch attack, not a normal attack. No extra STR Yeah I hadn't thought on the ranged not giving an STR bonus. I feel kinda silly for overlooking that one... I'm not too sure how much the Disarm part of it will come into play. I could see that one being a yes though. Thanks for the reply.
Bauglir 03-04-08, 05:46 PM	You can power attack with it, however. Which seems a bit silly if you can't use your Str modifier.
Crimson_Concerto 03-04-08, 05:47 PM	Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.Actually, Fire Lash IS a ranged attack, so yes, it provokes an AoO. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).The Fire Lash is not a whip. Yes, it counts as one for W. Focus, W. Specialization, and other feats, but nothing otherwise suggests it functions at all like a whip, so you do not gain the above benefits. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.Well, Fire Lash is a ranged attack, so you have to apply your DEX whether you like it or not. You deal additional damage equal to your Strength modifier. Again, Fire Lash is a ranged attack. You don't add your STR modifier to the damage.
cigaran 03-04-08, 06:47 PM	The Fire Lash is not a whip. Yes, it counts as one for W. Focus, W. Specialization, and other feats, but nothing otherwise suggests it functions at all like a whip, so you do not gain the above benefits. That's where we started to really run into questions on this. When you read what the ability does, it refers to it as a whip several times.
Crimson_Concerto 03-04-08, 10:12 PM	That's where we started to really run into questions on this. When you read what the ability does, it refers to it as a whip several times.Only twice actually. The first time is in the first sentence, which is just flavor text anyways and is only meant to give a basic idea of what the ability does. Fire lash certainly does resemble a whip, and calling it one isn't exactly incorrect. The second is in the last sentence, and again, as far as I can see, it's not being used to refer to any kind of actual mechanical whip but simply as a synonym for the Fire Lash. That being said, the ability IS very vaguely and ambiguously worded, and I wouldn't stake my life on my interpretation. It's all very unclear and easy to confuse, and I hate that they never released any meaningful clarifications, errata, or FAQ entries for it. On the question of whether or not the Fire Lash mechanically functions as a whip for tripping, disarming, otc., I dare not say you are wrong per se. I just say that my interpretation of the ability is that it doesn't use "whip" literally.
cigaran 03-05-08, 01:13 AM	Only twice actually. The first time is in the first sentence, which is just flavor text anyways and is only meant to give a basic idea of what the ability does. Fire lash certainly does resemble a whip, and calling it one isn't exactly incorrect. The second is in the last sentence, and again, as far as I can see, it's not being used to refer to any kind of actual mechanical whip but simply as a synonym for the Fire Lash. That being said, the ability IS very vaguely and ambiguously worded, and I wouldn't stake my life on my interpretation. It's all very unclear and easy to confuse, and I hate that they never released any meaningful clarifications, errata, or FAQ entries for it. On the question of whether or not the Fire Lash mechanically functions as a whip for tripping, disarming, otc., I dare not say you are wrong per se. I just say that my interpretation of the ability is that it doesn't use "whip" literally. True enough. One of our players is a known rules lawyer and God knows we had a good go around when the ability was first used. Sad part is, it's not even his character... I'll send it in to Sage and see if they'll actually answer it or not.
McPoyo 03-07-08, 08:09 AM	Normal whips were only Ranged weapons in 3.0 Whips are melee weapons in 3.5 Just figured I'd throw this out there for everyone saying the ranged attack thing. You provoke AoO's like a ranged weapon, but it's still melee. The Fire Lash may have a statement stating otherwise, since I'm AFB, however.
Slagger the Chuul 03-07-08, 09:35 AM	As it's really a psi-like ability, it doesn't function in any way like a whip except for those ways mentioned in the description. It's explicitly ranged (no question, since attacking calls for a ranged touch attack), but it can benefit from feats that apply to the whip, presumably because it's about the same shape. If you really need a burning whip that trips people, you can either wait until level 4 and use weapon afire, or douse a supply of whips in oil and light them up as needed. :cool:
Razz 03-09-08, 01:27 AM	It's clear Fire Lash is NOT a whip, as it explicitly states it only counts as a whip for the purposes of taking feats for it that apply to normal whips. I'm not sure about the disarm, sunder, and trip. At first I figure since it's a whip of fire and immaterial then it can't do such things. I see the ability as more akin to the druid spell flame blade than to an actual, material whip. Also, since it counts as a ranged attack: ---You can't sunder with it (unless the object is unheld, of course) ---You can't use it to disarm (disarming is melee only and requires an opposed attack roll anyhow, so no worries on the touch attack part). Unless you have the Ranged Disarm feat but the fire lash only allows feats that would apply to whips and since you can't apply Ranged Disarm to a whip, it won't work. ---Tripping wouldn't be a problem, either, since trip attacks are touch attacks. But, you can't trip with a ranged weapon, so again it's useless. And, yes, the whip weapon itself explicitly states it's a 15-foot reach melee weapon, but provokes AoO as if it were a ranged weapon only. Honestly, I really don't know why it states that you can take feats for it that apply to standard whips as I don't know any whip-only feats out there. The wording on that is very vague, I think that's the real question to ask Wizards about. In other words, you can use Power Attack with a whip, does it mean you use Power Attack with fire lash? I assume not, since fire lash is a ranged weapon. Same applies with Combat Expertise, etc. And, you wouldn't be able to take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. because those feats do not apply for standard whips. Other than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization(and the greater and epic versions), I really don't know what other feats are useful for fire lash. Weapon Finesse is another, but since it's a ranged attack, you already apply your Dexterity modifier. The way I see the ability is basically a "always have a weapon" ability for the pyrokineticist. In other words, if the pyro is bereft of all weapons, he still has a fire lash to dish at opponents. Not much use for anything else, other than burning the hell out of enemy real easily since its a touch attack.
Crimson_Concerto 03-09-08, 01:36 AM	And, you wouldn't be able to take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. because those feats do not apply for standard whips.There's actually more wrong with your post than this IMO, but those are things that are probably debatable. This, however, is outright wrong. While the ability states that the Fire Lash benefits from feats that would apply to a whip, it doesn't say that it ONLY benefits from feats applying to a whip. It could in fact benefit from Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.
Razz 03-09-08, 09:49 AM	There's actually more wrong with your post than this IMO, but those are things that are probably debatable. This, however, is outright wrong. While the ability states that the Fire Lash benefits from feats that would apply to a whip, it doesn't say that it ONLY benefits from feats applying to a whip. It could in fact benefit from Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. How so? It isn't a ranged weapon in respect to feats, it's only a standard whip in respect to feats. You can't have it both ways. It'd be a pretty broken ability if so. Also, it's a psi-like ability. You can't take feats for psi-like abilities unless they're meta-psi-like abilities like Empower Psi-Like ability and such. Which wouldn't work on this particular psi-like ability at all, anyway, as stated on page 184 of the XPH. What it does specifically state, however, is that you can take feats like Weapon Focus and Specialization and feats that would work for standard whips. But not anything else.
Razz 03-09-08, 10:04 AM	I looked through the D&D FAQ and on page 56 got this: Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this special weapon? It would seem so. The wording in the description of this psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well. In other words, not even the developers know their own wording. He seemed as confused with that answer as he was answering it. If anything, I would bring this thread to Bruce Cordell's attention somehow. Maybe he can clarify.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-09-08, 02:24 PM	Expand Spell-like Ability = 30' whip. (maybe - and for how long?) Crack that whip. Give the past the slip. Step on a crack. Break your psicrystal's back. Pyrokineticist comes along. You must whip it. Before Minor Creation sits out too long. You must whip it. When something's going wrong. You must whip it.
Lycanthromancer 03-09-08, 02:44 PM	The only solution to this problem is to rewrite the class. Needs to be done. Badly.
Razz 03-09-08, 10:09 PM	Or WotC could do a better job and focus their funding more on proofreaders, errata, and R&D rather than coming out with yet another jacked-up edition of D&D which will be as error-laden for years as all the other editions.
CrimsonDeath 03-11-08, 12:30 PM	The only solution to this problem is to rewrite the class. Needs to be done. Badly. It's already been done badly. I'd say it needs to be done well.
Crimson_Concerto 03-11-08, 09:16 PM	It isn't a ranged weapon in respect to feats, it's only a standard whip in respect to feats.False, I'm afraid. It counts as a whip with respect to feats, but nothing about the ability begins to suggest you cannot apply the benefits of other feats that could normally be applied to it. Otherwise, for example, you're suggestion to take meta-psi-like-ability feats wouldn't work because you can't apply those to whips. Also, for the record before we get there, you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks that aren't weapons; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc. can all be applied to things like ray attacks as well (though since most ray attacks are standard actions, you can't apply Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc., but theoretically, you could with a Fire Lash). I'll also take this opportunity to note how incredibly faulty the FAQ's reasoning on the matter is. I am SO glad it's rulings aren't considered RAW like the errata is. Power Attack only applies to melee attacks, and there is nothing about the ability that suggests it's treated as a whip in order to apply your STR damage. You know what? I swear I don't even care that 4E is just around the corner. I'm rewriting the Pyrokineticist to make it's abilities more clear. You can all look forward to seeing the finished product on this board by months' end...
CrimsonDeath 03-11-08, 10:22 PM	I think the biggest problem with the current wording of the Fire Lash ability is the awkwardness of the implementation of the whip in 3E, and the changes it underwent from 3.0 to 3.5 (which don't seem to have been accounted for in the XPH pyrokineticist). The 3.0 whip was treated as a thrown weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range increment and which doesn't leave the hand when thrown. The Fire Lash ability mimics this almost perfectly. The 3.5 whip, by contrast, is a reach weapon that provokes attacks of opportunity when used, and which the wielder can't use to threaten attacks of opportunity. If the designers wanted Fire Lash to continue to be used like a whip, they should have completely rewritten it to take these changes into account.
Razz 03-14-08, 10:51 PM	False, I'm afraid. It counts as a whip with respect to feats, but nothing about the ability begins to suggest you cannot apply the benefits of other feats that could normally be applied to it. Otherwise, for example, you're suggestion to take meta-psi-like-ability feats wouldn't work because you can't apply those to whips. Also, for the record before we get there, you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks that aren't weapons; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc. can all be applied to things like ray attacks as well (though since most ray attacks are standard actions, you can't apply Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc., but theoretically, you could with a Fire Lash). I'll also take this opportunity to note how incredibly faulty the FAQ's reasoning on the matter is. I am SO glad it's rulings aren't considered RAW like the errata is. Power Attack only applies to melee attacks, and there is nothing about the ability that suggests it's treated as a whip in order to apply your STR damage. You know what? I swear I don't even care that 4E is just around the corner. I'm rewriting the Pyrokineticist to make it's abilities more clear. You can all look forward to seeing the finished product on this board by months' end... Again, you seem to only see what you want to see instead of what is already stated. It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right.
CrimsonDeath 03-14-08, 10:57 PM	Again, you seem to only see what you want to see instead of what is already stated. It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right. Fire Lash states that you can apply feats to it that work with a normal whip. It never mentions what feats can't be applied to it. Presumably, any feat that could normally be applied to a psi-like ability that deals fire damage with a ranged touch attack can be applied to Fire Lash, because it is such an ability and does not explicitly forbid those feats to be used.
Crimson_Concerto 03-15-08, 02:53 AM	It specifically states that only Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization along with feats that can be applied to standard whips is allowed. You CANNOT apply Point Blank Shot, etc. to a STANDARD WHIP. Get it right.That only is where your problem is. Check your XPH. It never says only. To reiterate what CrimsonDeath said, the ability to apply whip feats, etc. is clearly and by RAW in addition to the normal feats it would be able to utilize. Read your XPH:Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.NOWHERE does it suggest this applies instead of normal feats the ability would otherwise qualify for or that such other feats are excluded in any way. It is very clearly a simple exception rule.
calronmoonflower 03-15-08, 09:52 PM	Alright. You can use the feats, improved trip and improved disarm with a whip. To apply these feats to the fire lash you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash. Can you sunder with a whip? As it is it doesn't deal lethal damage, so you should be able to sunder with a fire lash.
Crimson_Concerto 03-16-08, 04:34 AM	To apply these feats to the fire lash you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash.There are two ways to read this sentence, so please clarify what you mean. Do you mean: A) In order to apply these feats to the fire lash, you must be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash in the first place. or B) Because you can apply these feats to the fire lash, you must therefore be able to trip and disarm with the fire lash. Because A is correct, but B is very, very wrong... One cannot use Improved Trip or Improved Disarm with the Fire Lash. Those actions require melee attacks, and Fire Lash is very explicitly a ranged attack. If you mean B, your reasoning is fallacious. I can use the same reasoning to say: Because I can take the Skill Focus (Speak Language) feat to gain a +3 bonus to Speak Language checks, I must therefore be able to make Speak Language checks.
Lycanthromancer 03-16-08, 12:13 PM	Thing is, you can apply those feats to a whip, so you CAN apply them to the flame lash.
Slagger the Chuul 03-16-08, 02:44 PM	By the description, the feats you gain the ability to take must: A)Be taken in conjunction with the fire lash. B)Apply to a standard whip. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm cannot be taken in conjunction with a standard whip. They cannot be taken in conjunction with any specific weapon; their benefits apply to all valid weapons. Because you cannot take them in specific conjunction with a standard whip, they aren't relevant to this ability. You could potentially read the part about conjunction being specific to Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, except that feats which can merely affect a whip without being specificially linked to it could already be taken by a pyrokineticist (assuming they met the other requirements).
Crimson_Concerto 03-16-08, 03:29 PM	Thing is, you can apply those feats to a whip, so you CAN apply them to the flame lash.All right then; I'll play this game again. If you have Improved Trip, you gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent, and if you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. All right, so it looks like since it specifies melee combat, you won't be getting the free melee attack after the trip attempt, but hey, if you make a trip attempt with the Flame Lash, you still get the +4 bonus, right? But that right there's the problem. The feats doesn't grant you the ability to trip with a ranged weapon, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Unless you obtain the ability to make ranged trips, you can't make use of Improved Trip's benefits with the Fire Lash. Furthermore, if you DO gain the ability to trip with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Trip without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." The same applies with Improved Disarm or whatever else. Until you actually gain the ability to disarm with the Fire Lash, you can't make any use of the feat's benefits, because the feat doesn't grant you the ability to disarm with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to disarm with. And again, if you DO gain the ability to disarm with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Disarm without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." So yes, you CAN apply those feats to the Fire Lash the same way you CAN apply them to a Longbow. That doesn't mean you can actually make use of the feats or benefit from them if you otherwise couldn't.
calronmoonflower 03-16-08, 04:01 PM	Alright lets go to the source. From the SRD Fire Lash (Ps): A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.
Lycanthromancer 03-16-08, 08:13 PM	Um...Ha, ha? :P
Crimson_Concerto 03-17-08, 06:30 PM	Alright lets go to the source. From the SRDWe've been to the source multiple times, dear. I quoted it before myself and underlined that same part. Quoting the source still does not help your case. It helps mine. :P Yes, it says you can apply feats that apply to the use of a whip, but that's not my question. I already know that is the case. My question is: Where does it say you cannot apply feats that Fire Lash would otherwise qualify for? Those for Psi-like abilities or ranged attacks, for example. Unless it's shown that Fire Lash actually says that (which it doesn't), Fire Lash is mechanically assumed to benefit from such feats as normal. What part of what I'm saying are you not understanding?
Lycanthromancer 03-17-08, 06:35 PM	It qualifies for those feats because it qualifies for them. It's kind of self-explanitory. Seriously.
Crimson_Concerto 03-17-08, 06:54 PM	It qualifies for those feats because it qualifies for them. It's kind of self-explanitory. Seriously.Who was this directed towards and in what context? Because I feel like you're agreeing with me, but I thought we were on opposite sides just a second ago. :confused: EDIT: Furthermore, while we're at it, what was the context of your last post? :confused: You're posts are a little vague as to what you're referring to. :)
Lycanthromancer 03-17-08, 07:21 PM	Flame Lash qualifies for both feats that affect whips (such as Improved Trip and Weapon Focus: Whip) as well as for feats that affect Spell/Psi-Like Abilities.
Artector 03-17-08, 08:58 PM	Flame Lash qualifies for both feats that affect whips (such as Improved Trip and Weapon Focus: Whip) as well as for feats that affect Spell/Psi-Like Abilities. I think this is reasonable.... however Fire Lashes won't really qualify for anything (I can think of) since it has no caster level or spell level. A combo just occured to me... Fire Lash+Psionic Shot. Ranged Touch attack with 1d8+2d6 is nice. Add in Weapon Afire, upgrade to Greater Psionic Shot, Psicrystal Containment... and that's 2 ranged touch attacks dealing 1d8+2d6+4d6. Though you'd have to be 12th level (9 if human, 6 if 1 level of PsyWarrior)[just did this, so there's probably a better way to do it]. PS: I think you may also get Point Blank Shot with it too....
Lycanthromancer 03-17-08, 09:00 PM	Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot don't stack, I'm afraid.
Artector 03-17-08, 09:03 PM	Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot don't stack, I'm afraid. Yeah they dont. 1d8(Fire Lash base)+2d6(Weapon Afire)+4d6(Greater Psionic Shot). Weapon Afire should apply because the Fire Lash is a weapon, though opinions may differ on that.
Lycanthromancer 03-17-08, 09:11 PM	Heh. Shows how much attention I'm paying today.
calronmoonflower 03-18-08, 02:58 AM	Where does it say you cannot apply feats that Fire Lash would otherwise qualify for? Those for Psi-like abilities or ranged attacks, for example. Unless it's shown that Fire Lash actually says that (which it doesn't), Fire Lash is mechanically assumed to benefit from such feats as normal. What part of what I'm saying are you not understanding? Looks like a case of crossed wires. We both thought the other was saying something that they where not. Edit]Scratch that. I reread the thread are your wire appear to be crossed. I argued for certain actions and feats to be allowed. not that some would be disallowed.[/edit]
Crimson_Concerto 03-18-08, 07:29 PM	Scratch that. I reread the thread are your wire appear to be crossed. I argued for certain actions and feats to be allowed. not that some would be disallowed.:doh: I was confusing you with Razz in my last post directed towards you. Please forgive me. :blush: THIS posts, answering Lycanthromancer, addresses your concern about tripping, disarming, etc., I think?If you have Improved Trip, you gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent, and if you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. All right, so it looks like since it specifies melee combat, you won't be getting the free melee attack after the trip attempt, but hey, if you make a trip attempt with the Flame Lash, you still get the +4 bonus, right? But that right there's the problem. The feats doesn't grant you the ability to trip with a ranged weapon, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Unless you obtain the ability to make ranged trips, you can't make use of Improved Trip's benefits with the Fire Lash. Furthermore, if you DO gain the ability to trip with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Trip without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." The same applies with Improved Disarm or whatever else. Until you actually gain the ability to disarm with the Fire Lash, you can't make any use of the feat's benefits, because the feat doesn't grant you the ability to disarm with weapons you wouldn't normally be able to disarm with. And again, if you DO gain the ability to disarm with ranged attacks (I can recall at least one way), you would be able to apply it to the Fire Lash and thus apply the benefits of Improved Disarm without ever needing the ability to make use of "feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." So yes, you CAN apply those feats to the Fire Lash the same way you CAN apply them to a Longbow. That doesn't mean you can actually make use of the feats or benefit from them if you otherwise couldn't.
Lycanthromancer 03-18-08, 07:54 PM	But you can specifically apply feats that can apply to a whip to the fire lash, regardless of whatever else the fire lash does. So Improved Trip, etc do apply. It's right there, RAW. This is a specific exception to not being able to trip with a ranged weapon (or a misprint of the flame lash's abilities as being a ranged weapon, which is likely). Either way, you CAN use those feats. You can also use ranged feats and Sp/Ps-based feats. A fighter/pyrokineticist could be scary.
Lycanthromancer 03-18-08, 08:39 PM	Now here's a kicker... What about Quick Draw? [edit] It's too bad Manyshot specifies 'arrows,' else you could do some interesting things with Improved Trip, Manyshot, Ride-by/Spring Attack, and so on. It's also too bad that using expansion and the like don't increase your range on the Flame Lash, though I'd imagine taking something akin to Enlarge Spell/Psi-like Ability would be nice. :D
Crimson_Concerto 03-18-08, 10:22 PM	But you can specifically apply feats that can apply to a whip to the fire lash, regardless of whatever else the fire lash does. So Improved Trip, etc do apply. It's right there, RAW.I didn't say it didn't apply. I just said you can't make any real use of them without the aid of other abilities and that if you obtain these other abilities, it is not necessary to stipulate that the Fire Lash qualifies for them because it would anyways. Did you actually read my post at all? This is a specific exception to not being able to trip with a ranged weaponNowhere does it note any such exception. Here are the RAW facts: 1) Fire Lash is explicitly described as a ranged attack. 2) Trip attempts are limited to melee attacks only. 3) Improved Trip does not allow you to make trip attacks with ranged weapons. Thus, you CAN apply Improved Trip to the Fire Lash the same way you CAN apply Power Attack to a Scorching Ray. It's just not very USEFUL to do so because the conditions under which the feats work will never come up. Now here's a kicker... What about Quick Draw?That's... Actually a very interesting and valid question. One could argue that the Fire Lash is never "drawn" in the traditional sense of the word, I suppose, but off the top of my head, it seems to otherwise fit under the scoping of Fire Lash's wording, so I would probably allow it, I think... Though, I think if it works, it would be something that would be allowed to apply anyways, without needs of the Fire Lash's ability to apply whip feats...
calronmoonflower 03-19-08, 02:54 AM	:doh: I was confusing you with Razz in my last post directed towards you. Please forgive me. :blush: That's kind of what is meant by crossed wire. Mixing a poster or argument up with another. Anyway I remember magical kukri that allows you to trip when you throw it. Also Improved Trip gives you a bonus on the trip attempt that would apply. They reason that you can trip with fire lash is the text in the ability description overrides the normal rules for doing things.
Razz 03-19-08, 11:07 AM	We've been to the source multiple times, dear. I quoted it before myself and underlined that same part. Quoting the source still does not help your case. It helps mine. :P Yes, it says you can apply feats that apply to the use of a whip, but that's not my question. I already know that is the case. My question is: Where does it say you cannot apply feats that Fire Lash would otherwise qualify for? Those for Psi-like abilities or ranged attacks, for example. Unless it's shown that Fire Lash actually says that (which it doesn't), Fire Lash is mechanically assumed to benefit from such feats as normal. What part of what I'm saying are you not understanding? Your logic is strange. I must've showed this thread to a dozen people at my hobby shop. They don't understand where you have the logic of saying "Just because it doesn't say you can't qualify for feats that apply to ranged touch attacks, doesn't mean you can't." I am pretty sure the intention of the designers was for it only qualify for feats for standard whips, not touch attacks. After all, can we all imagine just how broken the ability would be? You're messing with the spirit of the ability and, frankly, you sound like a power-gamer. Below are several examples of your inconsistency: ---It doesn't say Fighters can't cast spells in the SRD. Does that mean my Fighter really can cast spells? ---It doesn't say in the SRD that Wizards can ONLY take feats from the categories of Item Creation, Spell Mastery, and Metamagic feats. Does that mean, according to your logic, that my Wizard can pick any feat he wants? ---It doesn't say in the SRD that Rangers ONLY receive bonus feats from the Combat Style trees stated. Does that mean I can make up any new tree I want and annoy the hell out of my DM? ---It doesn't say in the SRD that the Monk can apply his enhancement bonus to speed to ALL types of movement. Does that mean he can? I can go on like this. You're saying the exact same thing as the above examples. Just because Fire Lash doesn't state you can pick ranged feats, doesn't mean you can't. You're warping the spirit of intention with the ability and this why it's so hard to reason with you, it seems.
Razz 03-19-08, 11:11 AM	Sending this question to Ask Wizards would be the logical thing to do to settle this. And I am going to right now, in fact.
Razz 03-19-08, 11:19 AM	Sent. Also, to further make my points valid, the Fire Lash ability is italicized. When ability text is italicized, we all know it means it's a spell-like ability (or psi-like). This implies Fire Lash is truly a psi-like ability with a couple of extra benefits tacked on. Not a power-gamer's dream of extra benefits. Thus, you cannot take stuff like Power Attack or Rapid Shot with Fire Lash
CrimsonDeath 03-19-08, 12:17 PM	They reason that you can trip with fire lash is the text in the ability description overrides the normal rules for doing things. The thing is, you can make a trip attempt without Improved Trip. Improved Trip does three things: 1) No attacks of opportunity on unarmed trip attempts 2) +4 bonus on opposed Strength check to trip 3) One free attack against any creature you successfully trip The ability to make a trip attempt isn't the result of a feat. It's a property of the weapon being used. Flame Lash never mentions the ability to make trip attempts. Your logic is strange. I must've showed this thread to a dozen people at my hobby shop. They don't understand where you have the logic of saying "Just because it doesn't say you can't qualify for feats that apply to ranged touch attacks, doesn't mean you can't." I am pretty sure the intention of the designers was for it only qualify for feats for standard whips, not touch attacks. After all, can we all imagine just how broken the ability would be? You're messing with the spirit of the ability and, frankly, you sound like a power-gamer. Sometimes, abilities have results the designers didn't intend. We can't know their intent without asking them, so until then, we have to abide by what's actually written. And did you just call the Pyrokineticist "broken"? Below are several examples of your inconsistency: ---It doesn't say Fighters can't cast spells in the SRD. Does that mean my Fighter really can cast spells? No, because there's no reason to believe that Fighters can cast spells. ---It doesn't say in the SRD that Wizards can ONLY take feats from the categories of Item Creation, Spell Mastery, and Metamagic feats. Does that mean, according to your logic, that my Wizard can pick any feat he wants? At level 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, or 18, yes, a Wizard can pick any feat he qualifies for. For his level 5, 10, 15, and 20 bonus feats, though, he's restricted to metamagic and item creation feats, since those are his only listed options. ---It doesn't say in the SRD that Rangers ONLY receive bonus feats from the Combat Style trees stated. Does that mean I can make up any new tree I want and annoy the hell out of my DM? Technically, you can devise alternate combat styles. However, you need to get them approved by the DM first. Without Dm approval, you're restricted to the two combat styles listed in the book. ---It doesn't say in the SRD that the Monk can apply his enhancement bonus to speed to ALL types of movement. Does that mean he can? Since it simply says "speed" and not "land speed", arguably yes, if the monk in question has additional movement modes. I can go on like this. You're saying the exact same thing as the above examples. Just because Fire Lash doesn't state you can pick ranged feats, doesn't mean you can't. You're warping the spirit of intention with the ability and this why it's so hard to reason with you, it seems. There's a problem with your logic though: Flame Lash is a ranged attack. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to ranged attacks unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise. Flame Lash is also a Psi-Like ability. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to Psi-Like abilities (if there are any) unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise.
Crimson_Concerto 03-19-08, 06:19 PM	Thank you, CrimsonDeath. You pretty much just covered everything I was thinking to say, exactly how I wanted to say it. :clap: That means I can't take credit for it, of course, but I'll live. :D ...Something about us Crimson people? :P More specifically, though, I want to reinforce these points here:The ability to make a trip attempt isn't the result of a feat. It's a property of the weapon being used. Flame Lash never mentions the ability to make trip attempts. . . . and . . . There's a problem with your logic though: Flame Lash is a ranged attack. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to ranged attacks unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise. Flame Lash is also a Psi-Like ability. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to Psi-Like abilities (if there are any) unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise. Also, as to the allegation that I am a power-gamer... I don't even know where to begin on that... I guess I should start off with saying that I'm not. I build characters that are effective, sure, but never enough to break the game. I mean, I don't make characters that suck, but I generally try to stay around the same power level as the rest of the players are playing at... Probably more importantly, though, I don't see how my interpretation of Fire Lash is a power-gaming interpretation. I'm reading it as written and assuming nothing about intent, because that's what RAW means. I'm reading it as allowing ranged feats and psi-like ability feats but not melee-exclusive feats. You're reading it as not allowing ranged feats or psi-like ability feats but permitting melee feats it shouldn't normally have applied to it? The power-gaming interpretation would be to allow both, dear. :P EDIT: Also, for the record, any Ask Wizards response you get won't really matter, because their interpretations are not RAW, and they've delivered false and illogical answers many times before in the past. If you have a rules question, you don't go to them; you go to these boards. That way at least you get debate, opposing viewpoints, and deeper reasoning on the question.
Psychic_Robot 03-20-08, 12:09 AM	RAW: Ranged weapon. RAI: Whip. Guess which one is correct?
Lycanthromancer 03-20-08, 12:14 AM	Both!
angryscrub 03-20-08, 12:45 AM	...A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip.... am i the only one that reads this as you're taking weapon focus with whip, and it applies to the fire lash? i can't tell from the comments so far if people think you're taking weapon focus fire lash.
Lycanthromancer 03-20-08, 12:52 AM	am i the only one that reads this as you're taking weapon focus with whip, and it applies to the fire lash? i can't tell from the comments so far if people think you're taking weapon focus fire lash.Yes, that's what it means. The rest are debating on whether or not you can do things with a Fire Lash that you can do with a normal whip, such as tripping with it. After all, you can apply Improved Trip with a normal whip, so according to the FL's description, you apply Improved Trip to the Fire Lash. Others are saying that you can't trip with a ranged weapon, so Improved Trip doesn't apply, RAW-be-damned.
calronmoonflower 03-20-08, 03:07 AM	1). You can use improved Trip with a whip. (premise) 2). To use improved Trip you must make a trip attack. (premise) 3). You can apply any feat to the fire lash that you can with a whip. (premise) Therefor You can trip with a fire lash. (conclusion) This is in deductive format for the conclusion to be wrong one or more of the premises must be wrong. As for the other argument fire lash is a ranged touch attack so anything that can be applied to a ranged touch attack applies. That means that you can use Psionic Weapon (as it works with a whip) and Psionic Shot both to it. It is also listed as a "(Ps)" meaning that is a psi-like ability. Therefor you can apply anything that you can to a psi-like ability to it. the arguement in the other direction is actually an argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) because nothing exists that says that the normal rules do not apply on this.
CrimsonDeath 03-20-08, 04:54 AM	1). You can use improved Trip with a whip. (premise) 2). To use improved Trip you must make a trip attack. (premise) 3). You can apply any feat to the fire lash that you can with a whip. (premise) Therefor You can trip with a fire lash. (conclusion) This is in deductive format for the conclusion to be wrong one or more of the premises must be wrong. Does this mean you can trip with a Fire Lash even if you don't have Improved Trip, and are therefor are personally unable to apply it to either a whip or Fire Lash? Now, let's look at some other feats. Do you take nonproficiency penalties with the Fire Lash if you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip? Does the existence of the Monkey Grip feat imply that you can create a Fire Lash sized for a larger creature? Does the existence of Two Weapon Fighting imply that you can produce two Fire Lashes at once? Does the existence of Leap Attack imply that you can make charge attacks with the Fire Lash? Does the existence of Martial Study imply that you can deliver martial strikes through a Fire Lash? I could keep going...
Razz 03-20-08, 10:46 AM	So let me get this straight. We can suddenly take feats designed for melee attacks with ranged touch attacks now? Hmmm...you guys aren't power gamers you say? So I can take Power Attack and Improved Trip and use it with my longbow now? Because that is what I am hearing. I can max out my Power Attack everytime with Fire Lash and Rapid Shot with it and guarantee myself a 30+ damage hit most of the time. Hey, it doesn't say you CAN'T wield a whip with two hands right? So according to the great logic of Crimson-Concerto, since it doesn't say I can't wield a whip two-handed, I must be allowed to wield a whip two-handed. Now Power Attack Fire Lash has become more appealing...to a power gamer. Thanks guys (sarcasm). I don't think you guys understand the implications of doing this. It's a ranged TOUCH attack. The ability would be simply broken. As I have said before, knowing the spirit of the ability in design this should not be the case. After all, the game is designed around balance. If you want to allow a psi-like ability that uses a ranged touch attack for purposes of all sorts of ranged feats then it has to apply to all of them then. After all, it DOESN'T say you CAN'T, according to your logic. As for those saying you can take ranged feats with it, are you also trying to tell me that since the dromite's energy ray ability can also be taken with ranged feats? After all, it is a psi-like ability that requires a ranged touch attack to hit, so why not right? It's a "ranged weapon" right? It doesn't say I CAN'T so that means I CAN. (I'd hate to play D&D with this sort of logical reasoning used throughout the entire game...we'd have munchkins swarming the game) So, thanks to you some of you guys, everyone can start tripping and Power Attacking with ranged touch attacks. I can see a lot of angry DMs, now. The only thing you're right about is, yes, Customer Service replied and they're reply was pointless. All they said, pretty much, was it was up to the DM to interpret. I want official errata or clarification. I used to have Bruce Cordell's email address, but lost it. Anyone else have it?
Razz 03-20-08, 10:59 AM	And did you just call the Pyrokineticist "broken"? If you allow Fire Lash, a ranged TOUCH attack, to do all those things then yes, it is. No, because there's no reason to believe that Fighters can cast spells. Who says? It doesn't say it in the text. According to the logic here, that means a Fighter can throw out a spell if he wanted to it. It doesn't say he can't. Just like it doesn't say you can't take ranged feats for a psi-like ability that uses a ranged touch attack for the Fire Lash ability (there's a LOT of psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities that use ranged touch attack...you saying we can Improved Trip with disintegrate now?) At level 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, or 18, yes, a Wizard can pick any feat he qualifies for. For his level 5, 10, 15, and 20 bonus feats, though, he's restricted to metamagic and item creation feats, since those are his only listed options. It doesn't specifically say you're restricted to those categories. That means I can essentially pick from all categories. According to the Fire Lash logic that is. Technically, you can devise alternate combat styles. However, you need to get them approved by the DM first. Without Dm approval, you're restricted to the two combat styles listed in the book. According to Fire Lash Logic, you don't need approval because if it doesn't say you can't, it means you can. There's a problem with your logic though: Flame Lash is a ranged attack. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to ranged attacks unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise. Flame Lash is also a Psi-Like ability. So, by default, it benefits from feats that apply to Psi-Like abilities (if there are any) unless stated otherwise. And it's never stated otherwise. Flame Lash is a PSI-LIKE ABILITY first and foremost. Since it has no caster level, psi-like ability feats are excluded. That point is done. It's a psi-like ability that does 1d8 fire damage as a ranged touch attack. Just like energy ray and many others. Therefore, no other feat can be taken for it, not even feats for ray abilities since it's not a ray attack. That much is clear, according to the rules so far. That is the second biggest point we must understand, it CANNOT take such feats. Exclude ALL other text past this point, for example, and this is the conclusion any DM worth his salt in rules skills would realize when reading this ability right away. Now, moving on... It specifically says you CAN take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with it and feats for a standard whip. This is an addition to the normal rule where you normally could not, since it's a psi-like ability. Now we're seeing an additional ability tacked on. Which means from this point on in the text, it has to be taken almost literally and not stretched out beyond reasoning (which it has on this thread, it seems). Moving on... The word "can" is the opposite of "can't" or "cannot". Therefore, originally, you CANNOT take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and feats for a standard whip and anything else (such as ranged feats). However, it states you CAN and it names specific feats that CAN be taken. No where does it specifically state you CAN take ranged feats for it. It is lumped in the original category of CANNOT take ranged feats. It's simple arithmetic, in a sense. All this can easily be solved with some clarification. If the attack was, say, a melee attack (not touch or ranged), then I would be on your side of the debate. Because it wouldn't be broken and it wouldn't be stretching it. However, what I am seeing is people stretching the intent to ridiculous assumptions all for what, really?
CrimsonDeath 03-20-08, 12:52 PM	As for those saying you can take ranged feats with it, are you also trying to tell me that since the dromite's energy ray ability can also be taken with ranged feats? After all, it is a psi-like ability that requires a ranged touch attack to hit, so why not right? It's a "ranged weapon" right? It doesn't say I CAN'T so that means I CAN. (I'd hate to play D&D with this sort of logical reasoning used throughout the entire game...we'd have munchkins swarming the game) Well, you kinda can. I mean, you said it: It's a ranged attack. I mean, you still have to obey the rules of Energy Ray. It's a Standard action and not an Attack action to use, so Rapid Shot won't help. It also lacks a range increment, so Far Shot won't help. However, there's no reason Point Blank Shot won't work, as long as the target is within 30 feet. Why don't you think ranged feats will work with a ranged touch attacK? Is it because it's a touch attack? Are you going to tell me that you can't use Rapid Shot (in conjunction with Quick Draw) on nets? Because those are physical, manufactured weapons you can buy off the shelf that require ranged touch attacks. If you allow Fire Lash, a ranged TOUCH attack, to do all those things then yes, it is. Which things, exactly? Allowing a ranged attack to qualify for ranged feats, or allowing a ranged attack to qualify for melee feats? Who says? It doesn't say it in the text. According to the logic here, that means a Fighter can throw out a spell if he wanted to it. It doesn't say he can't. Just like it doesn't say you can't take ranged feats for a psi-like ability that uses a ranged touch attack for the Fire Lash ability (there's a LOT of psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities that use ranged touch attack...you saying we can Improved Trip with disintegrate now?) Actually, it kinda does say that you can apply ranged feats to a ranged touch attack. See, they apply to ranged attacks, and a ranged touch attack is a ranged attack. So, since ranged feats apply to all ranged attacks that qualify, they apply to all ranged touch attacks that qualify. For the Fire Lash to be unusable with ranged feats, the Fire Lash would have to be unable to meet the requirements for the feat (Plunging Shot from Races of the Wild, for example, since it can't hit a creature 30' below you), or Fire Lash would have to explicitly state that it's unusable with that particular feat (which it never does). Furthermore, check out pages 72-73 of Complete Arcane, under "Feats and Weaponlike Spells". It provides a description of two categories of weaponlike spells (ranged spells and touch spells), followed by a list of Core feats that can be applied to weaponlike spells (and the types of spells to which they can be applied). So, considering the similarities between spells and powers, why wouldn't these feats (or similar feats from outside Core) be applicable to weaponlike powers? And I'll give you a hint: It's not because they're ranged touch attacks. And no, I never said you could trip with Disintegrate. Nor have I said (in this thread) that you can trip with Fire Lash. Maybe you should go back and look at who's actually saying what before you make elaborate rebuttal posts like this one. It doesn't specifically say you're restricted to those categories. That means I can essentially pick from all categories. According to the Fire Lash logic that is. Once again, it only lists Metamagic feats, Item Creation feats, and Spell Mastery as valid options for Wizard bonus feats. According to Fire Lash Logic, you don't need approval because if it doesn't say you can't, it means you can. And once again, you completely misunderstood where I stand on this debate. Flame Lash is a PSI-LIKE ABILITY first and foremost. Since it has no caster level, psi-like ability feats are excluded. That point is done. Of course it has not caster level. It's a Psi-Like ability, which means it has a manifester level. And since no specific manifester level is listed, it's equal to the character's Pyrokineticist level. Why? Check out page 54 of the XPH, under Manifester Level. It says that the ML of a power is equal to the character's level in a psionic class. Then go check out Psi-Like Abilities on page 65. It says they're just like powers except as noted in that section, which says nothing about manifester level. Now, as for the Fire Lash's power level, that's anybody's guess. Either way, though, I have no idea what effect this has on Fire Lash's eligibility for feats that affect Psi-Like Abilities, since I'm not aware of any such feats. It's a psi-like ability that does 1d8 fire damage as a ranged touch attack. Just like energy ray and many others. Therefore, no other feat can be taken for it, not even feats for ray abilities since it's not a ray attack. That much is clear, according to the rules so far. That is the second biggest point we must understand, it CANNOT take such feats. Exclude ALL other text past this point, for example, and this is the conclusion any DM worth his salt in rules skills would realize when reading this ability right away. Now, moving on... No, don't move on! Why not? It's a ranged attack. Do you mean to say that Point Blank Shot doesn't work? How about Psionic Shot? It creates a held weapon that can be used to full attack. Does Rapid Shot still not help? Why not? Find me something, anything, that says these feats can be applied to ranged attacks as long as they aren't spells, SLA's, supernatural abilities, powers, PLAs, or ranged touch attacks. It specifically says you CAN take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with it and feats for a standard whip. This is an addition to the normal rule where you normally could not, since it's a psi-like ability. Now we're seeing an additional ability tacked on. Which means from this point on in the text, it has to be taken almost literally and not stretched out beyond reasoning (which it has on this thread, it seems). Moving on... I agree with your conclusion, but not your premise. The reason you can't use Weapon Focus: Whip with a Fire Lash is because it's not a whip, not because it's a Psi-Like ability. The word "can" is the opposite of "can't" or "cannot". Therefore, originally, you CANNOT take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization and feats for a standard whip and anything else (such as ranged feats). However, it states you CAN and it names specific feats that CAN be taken. No where does it specifically state you CAN take ranged feats for it. It is lumped in the original category of CANNOT take ranged feats. It's simple arithmetic, in a sense. And where does it say you can't take ranged feats with it? The ranged feats in question apply to "a ranged weapon", which is a weapon with which ranged attacks are made. Fire Lash creates a weapon with which ranged attacks are made. What part of this prevents ranged feats from being applied to the Fire Lash? As I already said, the reason the exception is made for feats that apply to a whip is because the Fire Lash isn't a whip. It is, however, a ranged weapon. All this can easily be solved with some clarification. If the attack was, say, a melee attack (not touch or ranged), then I would be on your side of the debate. Because it wouldn't be broken and it wouldn't be stretching it. However, what I am seeing is people stretching the intent to ridiculous assumptions all for what, really? I don't mean to be offensive, but judging by your latest two posts, I don't think you understand the argument, my position within it, or the way feats work.
Crimson_Concerto 03-20-08, 11:51 PM	RAW: Ranged weapon. RAI: Whip. Guess which one is correct?The first one. 1). You can use improved Trip with a whip. (premise) 2). To use improved Trip you must make a trip attack. (premise) 3). You can apply any feat to the fire lash that you can with a whip. (premise) Therefor You can trip with a fire lash. (conclusion)Whoa! You're jumping to conclusions here... This is in deductive format for the conclusion to be wrong one or more of the premises must be wrong.Untrue. Your premises are all correct, but the conclusion is non sequitor. You're forgetting two important premises: 1) Fire Lash is not functionally identical to a whip. 2) Tripping can only be performed with melee weapons. When you include these two premises, the conclusion becomes that the Fire Lash cannot trip, regardless of whether or not you can apply the benefits of Improved Trip. As for the other argument fire lash is a ranged touch attack so anything that can be applied to a ranged touch attack applies. That means that you can use Psionic Weapon (as it works with a whip) and Psionic Shot both to it.Again, completely incorrect, and for the same reason why you can't Power Attack or trip with the Fire Lash. Psionic Weapon specifies a melee weapon. IF you made up a feat "Psionic Whip" that allowed you to specifically apply this to a whip instead of to any melee weapon, THEN you would be able to apply it to Fire Lash. It is also listed as a "(Ps)" meaning that is a psi-like ability. Therefor you can apply anything that you can to a psi-like ability to it.Correct. the arguement in the other direction is actually an argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) because nothing exists that says that the normal rules do not apply on this.Ironic, because you're the one committing that logical fallacy here. By default, the normal rules say that you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks, including rays and other such weapons when such feats can logically apply (read CArcane, p. 72 - 73). Fire Lash DOES NOT say this normal rule does not apply. THEREFORE, the normal rule DOES still apply, and so the Fire Lash CAN benefit from ranged feats. Furthermore, the default, normal rules say you cannot trip with a ranged weapon. Fire Lash DOES NOT say this normal rule does not apply. THEREFORE, the normal rule DOES still apply, and so the Fire Lash CANNOT trip. So let me get this straight. We can suddenly take feats designed for melee attacks with ranged touch attacks now?No, that's exactly what we're arguing AGAINST. So I can take Power Attack and Improved Trip and use it with my longbow now? Because that is what I am hearing.You're hearing has deceived you. You cannot apply the benefits Power Attack or Improved Trip to your Longbow, because your Longbow is a Ranged weapon, and that's exactly why you cannot apply those benefits to the Fire Lash. I can max out my Power Attack everytime with Fire Lash and Rapid Shot with it and guarantee myself a 30+ damage hit most of the time.THAT'S exactly what I said was the munchkin interpretation, and it's neither my interpretation nor the correct one. You can apply Rapid Shot, but you cannot apply Power Attack. Hey, it doesn't say you CAN'T wield a whip with two hands right? So according to the great logic of Crimson-Concerto, since it doesn't say I can't wield a whip two-handed, I must be allowed to wield a whip two-handed.Actually, the rules specifically say that you CAN wield a whip two-handed, just like any other one-handed melee weapon. It says so in your PHB under the equipment, weapons section. Check out the rules for one-handed weapons. Now Power Attack Fire Lash has become more appealing...to a power gamer. Thanks guys (sarcasm).It's dubious and questionable whether nor not the ability to wield a whip two-handed allows you to wield the Fire Lash two-handed, but even if you could, the Fire Lash would still be a ranged attack, so you wouldn't be able to apply any damage bonus to it, and you wouldn't be able to apply Power Attack. If you want to allow a psi-like ability that uses a ranged touch attack for purposes of all sorts of ranged feats then it has to apply to all of them then. After all, it DOESN'T say you CAN'T, according to your logic.Correct. All Ranged attacks can benefit from ranged feats where appropriate, whether they're weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, powers, or psi-like abilities. Fire Lash just happens to be very special amongst psi-like abilities in that it can be used as an attack action. Eldritch Blast, for example, can benefit from Point Blank Shot and Precise shot just the same, but because it's a standard action, you can't apply Rapid Shot. Furthermore, neither Fire Lash nor Eldritch Blast can apply Far Shot, because neither has a range increment. As for those saying you can take ranged feats with it, are you also trying to tell me that since the dromite's energy ray ability can also be taken with ranged feats? After all, it is a psi-like ability that requires a ranged touch attack to hit, so why not right? It's a "ranged weapon" right? It doesn't say I CAN'T so that means I CAN.That's actually completely correct, but remember that since the Dromite's Energy Ray is a standard action, it can't benefit from much else other than, say, Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot. It couldn't benefit from Rapid Shot, which requires a full attack action, and it couldn't benefit from Far Shot, because it has no range increment. Unless a feat specifically called out a certain type of ranged attack (like Many Shot, which specifies that it only works with arrows), then by RAW, it works for ALL ranged attacks to which it can actually apply. So, thanks to you some of you guys, everyone can start tripping and Power Attacking with ranged touch attacks.Completely ridiculous. One cannot trip or Power Attack with ranged attacks, and I'm not claiming you can. You can, however, apply ranged feats to ranged attacks. Melee-specific feats and ranged-specific feats are decidedly different. Who says? It doesn't say it in the text. According to the logic here, that means a Fighter can throw out a spell if he wanted to it. It doesn't say he can't. Just like it doesn't say you can't take ranged feats for a psi-like ability that uses a ranged touch attack for the Fire Lash ability (there's a LOT of psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities that use ranged touch attack...you saying we can Improved Trip with disintegrate now?)You've got this completely mixed up, and you're twisting my points. A) Humans (and most other races in D&D) by default cannot cast spells, so unless they gain the ability, by taking a spell-casting class for example, they cannot cast spells; that is the default assumption. B) All ranged attack, by default, can benefit from ranged attacks that are able to be applied to them. It's not that Fire Lash can benefit from ranged feats because it doesn't say it can't; it benefits from ranged feats because nothing in its description contradicts the default. If nothing in its description says it can't, then by default, it can. According to Fire Lash Logic, you don't need approval because if it doesn't say you can't, it means you can.False. There are no default assumption for Bonus Feats, because they're not normally gained feats. You can only do with them what they say you can do. Once you have the ability the feat you can choose grants, on the other hand, it functions as normal for the feat and follows all default assumptions associated with the feat, etc. No where does it specifically state you CAN take ranged feats for it. It is lumped in the original category of CANNOT take ranged feats. It's simple arithmetic, in a sense.It doesn't need to say that you CAN, because the default assumption based on the RAW is that you CAN, and saying it CAN take other things doesn't negate the default assumptions.
angryscrub 03-21-08, 12:31 AM	...And where does it say you can't take ranged feats with it? The ranged feats in question apply to "a ranged weapon", which is a weapon with which ranged attacks are made. Fire Lash creates a weapon with which ranged attacks are made. What part of this prevents ranged feats from being applied to the Fire Lash?... well, it seems to me the problem is right here. why do you think it creates a weapon? the ability could maybe read either way, except why would they point out separately what feats you could take with it if it were a weapon? the rules for feats and weapons are rather clear. personally, i'm inclined to believe it's not a weapon, and the only ranged feats that would apply are ones that don't reference weapons. if there are any. as for the improved trip thing, of course it applies all bonuses to the flame lash. it's just that until you figure out how to make a melee attack with it, none of the bonuses will kick in. same applies to improved disarm. if you want extra attacks, slashing flurry (PHB2) will definitely work, but rapid shot, not so much.
calronmoonflower 03-21-08, 03:01 AM	The first one. Whoa! You're jumping to conclusions here... Untrue. Your premises are all correct, but the conclusion is non sequitor. You're forgetting two important premises: 1) Fire Lash is not functionally identical to a whip. 2) Tripping can only be performed with melee weapons. When you include these two premises, the conclusion becomes that the Fire Lash cannot trip, regardless of whether or not you can apply the benefits of Improved Trip. If number two was true then "You can apply any feat to the fire lash that you can with a whip." would not be true as you cannot apply it if you cannot trip with the fire lash. Thus the argument become inconsistent and therefor illogical. Again, completely incorrect, and for the same reason why you can't Power Attack or trip with the Fire Lash. Psionic Weapon specifies a melee weapon. IF you made up a feat "Psionic Whip" that allowed you to specifically apply this to a whip instead of to any melee weapon, THEN you would be able to apply it to Fire Lash. From the FAQ Can you use the Power Attack feat in combination with a whip? Actually yes, this is also possible, since the whip is listed as a melee weapon. Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this special weapon? It would seem so. The wording in the description of this psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well. As it is the main FAQ does disagree. The text doesn't say that the feat must apply only to the whip, only that it applies to the whip. Ironic, because you're the one committing that logical fallacy here. By default, the normal rules say that you can apply ranged feats to ranged attacks, including rays and other such weapons when such feats can logically apply (read CArcane, p. 72 - 73). Fire Lash DOES NOT say this normal rule does not apply. THEREFORE, the normal rule DOES still apply, and so the Fire Lash CAN benefit from ranged feats. Furthermore, the default, normal rules say you cannot trip with a ranged weapon. Fire Lash DOES NOT say this normal rule does not apply. THEREFORE, the normal rule DOES still apply, and so the Fire Lash CANNOT trip. You misread me bit here. I was referring to the other argument. It can benefit from ranged attack feats just fine. Also those that apply to psi-like abilities. In addition those that can be applied to the whip can be used with it. You're hearing has deceived you. You cannot apply the benefits Power Attack or Improved Trip to your Longbow, because your Longbow is a Ranged weapon, and that's exactly why you cannot apply those benefits to the Fire Lash. The Rules As Written say that any feat that applied to the whip can be used with the fire slash. Therefor this is inconsistent with the Rules As Written.
CrimsonDeath 03-21-08, 03:57 AM	2) Tripping can only be performed with melee weapons. This is actually incorrect. Even if we restrict ourselves to Core, we have the bolas. Tripping may actually be performed only by weapons that explicitly permit trip attempts. In Core, that includes unarmed strikes, bolas, spiked chains, all flails, guisarmes, halberds, gnome hooked hammers, kamas, scythes, sickles, whips, and certain types of natural weapons. well, it seems to me the problem is right here. why do you think it creates a weapon? The sentence "A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action." That sounds like creating a weapon to me. as for the improved trip thing, of course it applies all bonuses to the flame lash. it's just that until you figure out how to make a melee attack with it, none of the bonuses will kick in. same applies to improved disarm. Well, either that or find a way to trip or disarm someone with a ranged attack.
angryscrub 03-21-08, 10:58 AM	The sentence "A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action." That sounds like creating a weapon to me. ahhh, i guess that's a problem. i read it as "whip of fire" not "whip" "of" "fire", if that makes sense. it's not the game term whip, but whip as a descriptor of the visual effects. if it were the game term whip, there would be no need to specify that weapon focus works with it, since it would automatically work with any feat that worked with whips.
Crimson_Concerto 03-21-08, 02:20 PM	well, it seems to me the problem is right here. why do you think it creates a weapon?Well, to be fair, it's actually what CArcane would refer to as a "Weapon-Like 'Spell'," meaning that it could in fact benefit from things requiring "ranged weapons," just like Ray attacks or Eldritch Blast benefit from them. If number two was true then "You can apply any feat to the fire lash that you can with a whip." would not be true as you cannot apply it if you cannot trip with the fire lash. Thus the argument become inconsistent and therefor illogical.Untrue. Just read what angryscrub wrote:as for the improved trip thing, of course it applies all bonuses to the flame lash. it's just that until you figure out how to make a melee attack with it, none of the bonuses will kick in. same applies to improved disarm.It's what I've been trying to explain to you this entire time. Fire Lash would get the benefit it it had the ability to trip, but it doesn't have the ability to trip, and having Improved Trip doesn't grant it the ability to trip. If and when you get the ability to trip with Fire Lash, you will have tangible access to the benefits you've had all along. Maybe this will help: Let's say you take the Skill Focus feat and you pick the skill Speak Language. Well, it doesn't look like you can make skill checks with that skill, so the +3 bonus is pretty useless, isn't it? You DO still have that +3 bonus to the skill, but until you somehow gain the ability to make skill checks with Speak Language, you aren't really going to see any real benefit from that +3 bonus. That's kind of what's going on here; you ARE getting the benefit of feats such as Improved Trip, Power Attack, and so on, but you just don't have the ability to actually make use of those benefits. Find a way to make use of those benefits, and you will see them. From the FAQ As it is the main FAQ does disagree. The text doesn't say that the feat must apply only to the whip, only that it applies to the whip.A) The FAQ is wrong about Power Attack being allowed to apply to the Fire Lash. Luckily, the FAQ isn't RAW, so ignoring such interpretations doesn't require house-rulings. B) I never said anything about only being able to apply feats that ONLY apply to the whip. I said that IF there were such a feat as one that applied its benefit solely to a whip, it would apply to Fire Lash as well, but that since Psionic weapon specified a melee weapon, which Fire Lash is not and does not count as, then you can't benefit from it. If you can figure out a way to make melee attacks with Fire Lash, however, you may then make use of the Psionic Weapon feat. This is actually incorrect. Tripping may actually be performed only by weapons that explicitly permit trip attempts.My apologies, you can change #2 to "Tripping can only be performed with weapons that specifically allow one to trip with them" or something similar. Still, Fire Lash is not on that list, and so the same logical reasoning I used before still follows perfectly well.
CrimsonDeath 03-21-08, 05:08 PM	ahhh, i guess that's a problem. i read it as "whip of fire" not "whip" "of" "fire", if that makes sense. it's not the game term whip, but whip as a descriptor of the visual effects. if it were the game term whip, there would be no need to specify that weapon focus works with it, since it would automatically work with any feat that worked with whips. I'm not so much focused on the phrase "whip of fire" as the phrase "the ability to fashion". That indicates that he's clearly making something, and the fact that he can make attacks with it indicates that it's a weapon. Furthermore, you haven't addressed my point about feats that work with weaponlike spells as though they were weapons.
angryscrub 03-21-08, 06:33 PM	.... B) I never said anything about only being able to apply feats that ONLY apply to the whip. I said that IF there were such a feat as one that applied its benefit solely to a whip, it would apply to Fire Lash as well, but that since Psionic weapon specified a melee weapon, which Fire Lash is not and does not count as, then you can't benefit from it. If you can figure out a way to make melee attacks with Fire Lash, however, you may then make use of the Psionic Weapon feat.... well, actually, why doesn't fire lash count as a melee weapon? ...A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip... to me this means fire lash can be inserted in the place of whip in any feat description. whip can be inserted in place of melee weapon in any feat description. ergo, fire lash=whip=melee weapon in any feat description. i agree that if the feat says melee attack it doesn't apply, but something like psionic weapon doesn't care about the kind of attack, only the weapon. is my logic off somewhere? EDIT:i feel i should mention that playing in a totally RAW game, i would fully expect to find a melee weapon that can not make melee attacks. or a ranged weapon that can't make ranged attacks. because RAW is generally pretty dumb. I'm not so much focused on the phrase "whip of fire" as the phrase "the ability to fashion". That indicates that he's clearly making something, and the fact that he can make attacks with it indicates that it's a weapon. Furthermore, you haven't addressed my point about feats that work with weaponlike spells as though they were weapons. well, because it's not a general weapon like spell (or psi like ability as the case may be) to me. it's one that specifically defines what works with it. YMMV, but that's how i read it. i freely admit it could be interpreted to inclusive rather than exclusive, but the RAW is unclear on that point.
calronmoonflower 03-22-08, 02:29 AM	Untrue. Just read what angryscrub wrote:It's what I've been trying to explain to you this entire time. Fire Lash would get the benefit it it had the ability to trip, but it doesn't have the ability to trip, and having Improved Trip doesn't grant it the ability to trip. If and when you get the ability to trip with Fire Lash, you will have tangible access to the benefits you've had all along. You say tomato I say distinction without a difference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference). Either you can apply the the feat to it or you cannot.
Razz 03-22-08, 10:49 PM	Fire Lash is no different as a weapon-like psi-like ability than having the spell-like ability to do flame blade, the druid spell. I am guessing I can take Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization and any feat that can apply to scimitars to the spell since it conjures a scimitar of flame, after all right? Anyone want to argue that, go ahead.
CrimsonDeath 03-22-08, 11:16 PM	Fire Lash is no different as a weapon-like psi-like ability than having the spell-like ability to do flame blade, the druid spell. I am guessing I can take Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization and any feat that can apply to scimitars to the spell since it conjures a scimitar of flame, after all right? Anyone want to argue that, go ahead. It seems reasonable that you would be able to use feats that apply specifically to the scimitar. However, I'm guessing the flame blade still has a 20/x2 base critical (since its damage isn't the same as a normal scimitar's), so Improved Critical, while it may apply, won't be as effective. That's probably a DM call though. Furthermore, feats that depend on the specific traits of a scimitar rather than affecting scimitars specifically (such as Slashing Flurry) may not apply either. It's probably a discussion for another thread in a different part of the forum entirely.
Crimson_Concerto 03-24-08, 07:18 PM	well, actually, why doesn't fire lash count as a melee weapon?Because it's a ranged weapon and nothing says it can perform actions usually limited to melee weapons. If the ability doesn't call out an exception, then we can only assume there is none and we must logically assume the default. ergo, fire lash=whip=melee weapon in any feat description... is my logic off somewhere?Yes, partially because I'm sure there's some logical fallacy showing how incorrect that reasoning is, but I'm too lazy to look it up. It doesn't matter, though, because it's mostly because Fire Lash =! Whip. If it were, we wouldn't have any issues here. The main difference, in fact, is that the Whip is a melee weapons, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Another difference is that the Fire Lash deals damage via a touch attack, and the Whip deals damage via a normal attack. Yet another difference is that the Fire Lash deals fire damage, and the Whip deals non-lethal damage. Fire Lash =! Whip. You say tomato I say distinction without a difference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference). Either you can apply the the feat to it or you cannot.Unfortunately, such a distinction without difference in logical outcome is the only way to make sense of the ability, like it or not.
Lycanthromancer 03-24-08, 07:21 PM	The question is if you can use melee feats with the flame lash, even if it's a ranged weapon. Since you can apply melee feats to a whip, you can also, RAW, apply them to a flame lash, and they have the same effect. Hence the ability description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm#fireLash)
angryscrub 03-24-08, 09:26 PM	Because it's a ranged weapon and nothing says it can perform actions usually limited to melee weapons. If the ability doesn't call out an exception, then we can only assume there is none and we must logically assume the default. it's not performing any actions. it is receiving bonuses that apply to melee weapons, of which the whip is one. the slashing flurry feat applies to the use of a standard whip. it also makes no mention of anything but attack actions. not melee, not ranged, just attack actions. i'd suggest you read it if you have the PHB2 and see what i mean. Yes, partially because I'm sure there's some logical fallacy showing how incorrect that reasoning is, but I'm too lazy to look it up. It doesn't matter, though, because it's mostly because Fire Lash =! Whip. If it were, we wouldn't have any issues here. The main difference, in fact, is that the Whip is a melee weapons, and Fire Lash is a ranged weapon. Another difference is that the Fire Lash deals damage via a touch attack, and the Whip deals damage via a normal attack. Yet another difference is that the Fire Lash deals fire damage, and the Whip deals non-lethal damage. Fire Lash =! Whip. i wholeheartedly agree that fire lash != whip. however, i fail to see how you can claim that any feat that references a melee weapon (or a slashing weapon, or just a weapon), but not an actual melee attack, and applies to the whip, does not apply to the fire lash. i'd suggest you try to look up the alleged fallacy i'm apparently championing, and let me know what it is, as it appears to me you're not bothering to carry the fire lash description through to its logical conclusion. i have hope for you though.
CrimsonDeath 03-24-08, 09:54 PM	Actually, the only weapon mentioned in Improved Trip is the unarmed strike.
Crimson_Concerto 03-24-08, 10:22 PM	it's not performing any actions. it is receiving bonuses that apply to melee weapons, of which the whip is one. the slashing flurry feat applies to the use of a standard whip. it also makes no mention of anything but attack actions. not melee, not ranged, just attack actions. i'd suggest you read it if you have the PHB2 and see what i mean.You think I'm opposing things that I'm not. In such a case that a feat applies something to a whip that doesn't actually have anything to do with an exclusively melee attack, I am forced to concede that would work. Power Attacking, for instance, DOES specifically involve making a melee attack, so it would not work with the Fire Lash. I know little of this Slashing Fury you speak of, I don't own the PHBII. Slashing Fury is that feats that lets you take an additional attack with a slashing weapon if I remember correctly (which I probably don't, having seen the feat maybe once)? That feat would not work with the Fire Lash, because the Fire Lash isn't a slashing weapon. Another one of the many differences between Fire Lash and a Whip. i wholeheartedly agree that fire lash != whip.Well then there we go. The Fire Lash simply does not have the capabilities to benefit from everything the Whip can benefit from. The wording on the ability was poorly thought out and did not take this into account, which unfortunately deceives people into thinking it can act as a whip in all ways.
angryscrub 03-25-08, 11:05 PM	Actually, the only weapon mentioned in Improved Trip is the unarmed strike. exactly why improved trip doesn't do anything for the fire lash. You think I'm opposing things that I'm not. In such a case that a feat applies something to a whip that doesn't actually have anything to do with an exclusively melee attack, I am forced to concede that would work. Power Attacking, for instance, DOES specifically involve making a melee attack, so it would not work with the Fire Lash. I know little of this Slashing Fury you speak of, I don't own the PHBII. Slashing Fury is that feats that lets you take an additional attack with a slashing weapon if I remember correctly (which I probably don't, having seen the feat maybe once)? That feat would not work with the Fire Lash, because the Fire Lash isn't a slashing weapon. Another one of the many differences between Fire Lash and a Whip. umm, but the whip is a slashing weapon. therefore slashing flurry applies "to the use of a standard whip". (direct quote from fire lash) and the benefit slashing flurry grants does apply to fire lash, because the benefit has nothing to do with melee attacks. Well then there we go. The Fire Lash simply does not have the capabilities to benefit from everything the Whip can benefit from. The wording on the ability was poorly thought out and did not take this into account, which unfortunately deceives people into thinking it can act as a whip in all ways. no, it does not have the ability to benefit from everything the whip can benefit from. but it explicitly, from the description, can benefit from feats that apply to the use of a standard whip.
Crimson_Concerto 03-25-08, 11:57 PM	umm, but the whip is a slashing weapon. therefore slashing flurry applies "to the use of a standard whip". (direct quote from fire lash) and the benefit slashing flurry grants does apply to fire lash, because the benefit has nothing to do with melee attacks.hmm... You actually make a compelling argument for this Slashing Fury feat. I wouldn't be able to say for sure since I haven't seen the feat myself, but if as you say the benefit has nothing to do with actually needing to make melee attacks with a slashing weapon, then it appears that you are right and that Slashing Fury should indeed apply to the Flame Lash.
calronmoonflower 03-26-08, 02:59 AM	exactly why improved trip doesn't do anything for the fire lash. umm, but the whip is a slashing weapon. therefore slashing flurry applies "to the use of a standard whip". (direct quote from fire lash) and the benefit slashing flurry grants does apply to fire lash, because the benefit has nothing to do with melee attacks. no, it does not have the ability to benefit from everything the whip can benefit from. but it explicitly, from the description, can benefit from feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. MMMmmm... By the logic in the last to columns you would also get to use Improved Trip with the fire slash. That is because the fire slash is not a slashing weapon (requirement). I looked through the rules for tripping and it says by default you cannot trip with a weapon. It doesn't actually say that you cannot trip with a ranged weapon. You just get the default no as normally nothing suggests you can. In this case however, there is reason to believe that you can. I've heard that in 3.0 the whip was a ranged weapon. Could someone confirm this? This seems more important that might appear. I looked over the 3.0 fire lash and it seems that they rewrote it, but might not have updated it to conform with the 3.5 whip.
Slagger the Chuul 03-26-08, 08:36 AM	A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. Hmm. All it says is that you can take some additional feats. It never says that they will all work with the fire lash.
Novabomb 03-26-08, 10:33 AM	Fire Lash is no different as a weapon-like psi-like ability than having the spell-like ability to do flame blade, the druid spell. I am guessing I can take Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization and any feat that can apply to scimitars to the spell since it conjures a scimitar of flame, after all right? Anyone want to argue that, go ahead. Yes, you can take feats that apply to scimitar, and they should apply to the flameblade. Flame blade specifies that: "You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar" And yes you should be able to power attack with the flameblade, because you can powerattack with a scimitar. Flame Lash is in fact different from Flame blade as it lacks the clause "You treat this ectoplasm as a whip". Flame Lash states that: "A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." It says nothing about using the feats as if your flame lash was a whip. Dont get mean wrong, I believe the RAI was to have the flame lash act as a whip, but RAW it just isn't. There are plenty of ways to power attack on a touch attack, so stop making accusations of powergaming.
Keenath 03-26-08, 11:14 AM	I think, regardless of what the rules would technically say, I'm just gonna houserule it this way: A fire lash is treated in all respects as a normal whip, except its base damage is 1d8 fire, it vanishes instantly if dropped, and it makes touch attacks to hit (thus its damage is not reduced against armored opponents). A pyrokineticist is always proficient with his own fire lash even if he's not proficient with whips, and is treated as having Weapon Finesse for purposes of making attacks with his fire lash. A fire lash is not a valid target for spells or powers that affect weapons, including the pyrokineticist's Weapon Afire power. So using that rule, yes, you can trip with it, and you can "drop" the fire lash to avoid a counter-trip (at which point it instantly vanishes and you need a move action to recreate it); yes, you deal +STR damage with fire lash attacks (all of which is fire damage, of course); and yes, you can power attack with it just like a normal whip. Makes things easier all around, really. The other alternative would be to just not mention additional feats at all. But really, fire lash is a pretty lame power. Bolt of Fire is pretty much universally better as soon as you get it, even if you have a high BAB where you can take advantage of iterative attacks. At least, by a strict reading where you don't get to apply your STR bonus. By my lights, if it doesn't say you get bonus damage, you don't. It's not a thrown weapon and it's a ranged touch, so I don't see why it would apply your strength. Even if you did, though, I can't see this being all that attractive compared to 1d6 per pyro level. Actually, come to that, the whole class is a bit schizophrenic -- it's clearly a weapon-focused class, but first you get some unique weapon abilities like Lash and Bolt and Hand Afire for melee (which is essentially a free Improved Unarmed Strike that takes a move action to activate); but then you get the Weapon Afire abilities that support using real weapons and tend to push you away from your previously acquired powers; then you get Heat Death, which looks like something a manifester would want (what with the cha-based DC), but has a pretty second-rate base DC, equivalent to a 4th level spell/power, which you can't get before 14th level (when 7th level powers are around and full casters are starting to look like demigods). IMO, this class needs to be completely rewritten. If it were me? I'd make it a 5 level PRC that's focused toward the melee guy -- Weapon Afire (which would include the Hand Afire ability) and Fire Adaptation at 1st; Nimbus at 2nd; Fear No Fire and Greater Weapon Afire at 3rd; and Conflagration at 5th, possibly with a toned down number of dice.
calronmoonflower 03-27-08, 02:22 AM	Hmm. All it says is that you can take some additional feats. It never says that they will all work with the fire lash. Dang, I've been misreading it. I'm glad that someone pointed it out. Too bad this really won't settle the question though it is quite a blow to my argument. It actually says that it is a whip in two places, but it doesn't quite act as a whip :headexplo
Razz 04-01-08, 05:46 PM	Yes, you can take feats that apply to scimitar, and they should apply to the flameblade. Flame blade specifies that: "You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar" And yes you should be able to power attack with the flameblade, because you can powerattack with a scimitar. Flame Lash is in fact different from Flame blade as it lacks the clause "You treat this ectoplasm as a whip". Flame Lash states that: "A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip." It says nothing about using the feats as if your flame lash was a whip. Dont get mean wrong, I believe the RAI was to have the flame lash act as a whip, but RAW it just isn't. There are plenty of ways to power attack on a touch attack, so stop making accusations of powergaming. Power Attacking with a touch attack is either rare or has a drawback if it exists. Prime example, Deep Impact. Lose psionic focus if you attempt it. I find it funny that a feat, based off of applying your muscle in the right area at the right time and with pure muscle behind its connection, is allowed by some people here for flame blade or fire lash. Considering it specifically states that flame blade doesn't use Strength modifier for damage and fire lash is a ranged attack. You can put power behind an attack but not your natural, base Strength? Wha...? Also, if we read the definition of ranged attack in all cases, Power Attack could never apply. The question is this: Is the fire lash considered a ranged touch attack that allows melee-type feats to work with it despite it being a ranged attack or should the fire lash have been considered a melee touch attack weapon in the first place? (one good example, fire lash provokes AoO because it's ranged attack, but standard whips don't...which is it?)
Crimson_Concerto 04-01-08, 08:00 PM	(one good example, fire lash provokes AoO because it's ranged attack, but standard whips don't...which is it?)Fire Lash provokes the AoO, because nothing says that it acts like a whip in that way at all. It only acts like a whip at all for the benefit of some feats. Fire Lash is still a ranged attack and thus still provokes an AoO.
CrimsonDeath 04-01-08, 08:32 PM	(one good example, fire lash provokes AoO because it's ranged attack, but standard whips don't...which is it?) Actually, using a standard whip does provoke AOOs.
calronmoonflower 04-01-08, 09:09 PM	I found the stats for a 3.0 whip and it is a ranged attack with a range of 15 feet. Looks like they didn't update the weapon to equal the new whip stats.
ToastedAmphibian 04-01-08, 09:13 PM	I was under the impresion that all ranged weapons fell into one of two categories in dnd 3.5 ; Missile (Bows, Crossbows, ect) and Thrown (Javilens, daggers, axes, nets, bolas, ect) sooo.... is a fire lash a missile weapon, a thrown weapon, or a melee weapon? I found the stats for a 3.0 whip and it is a ranged attack with a range of 15 feet. Looks like they didn't update the weapon to equal the new whip stats. Corrrrect. I thought that was already mentioned but, mabey that was in a diffrent thread. Also, something that is bugging me.... The person who is claiming that improved trip must always be applicable to a firelash, and thus you must be able to trip with a fire lash: Why do you claim a feat must always be applicable to BE applicable? In other words, say i have weapon focus (Unarmed Strike). Your argument claims that, because i have WF(US) i must always be able to gain that benifit. Anytime i cant gain that benift, perhapes because im paralyzed, then someone is cheating. I say, if i cant make an attack using my unarmed strike, then i cannot benifit from the feat. That dosnt make WF apply to my unarmed strike any less. You may apply improved trip to your fire lash every single time you make a trip with your firelash, assuming you met the requierments of improved trip at that time. (By that i mean, int 13 ect) If you make a trip attack with a shortsword, you may apply improved trip to that as well. You just have to figure out HOW to make a trip attack with a non trip weapon. On a side note: Any weapon that you may take "Exotic weapon proficency" in must by definition be an exotic weapon correct? You may take EWP for a whip. Therefore you may take EWP for a fire lash. That then makes fire lash an acceptal weapon for use with the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class. Giving you access to the Exotic Trip trick. Yes?
calronmoonflower 04-01-08, 09:27 PM	I was under the impresion that all ranged weapons fell into one of two categories in dnd 3.5 ; Missile (Bows, Crossbows, ect) and Thrown (Javilens, daggers, axes, nets, bolas, ect) sooo.... is a fire lash a missile weapon, a thrown weapon, or a melee weapon? None of the above.
Slagger the Chuul 04-01-08, 10:04 PM	I was under the impresion that all ranged weapons fell into one of two categories in dnd 3.5 ; Missile (Bows, Crossbows, ect) and Thrown (Javilens, daggers, axes, nets, bolas, ect) sooo.... is a fire lash a missile weapon, a thrown weapon, or a melee weapon? The fire lash isn't an actual weapon at all; it's a psi-like ability.
ToastedAmphibian 04-01-08, 10:44 PM	Its an ability that lets you make a weapon. Many spells and powers exist taht creat weapons, and typically the weapons that they make are refered to by the same name as the abilty/spell that made them. Fire Lash (Ps) is an ability "Your fire lash" is an item. takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals If it was just an ability that dealt damage but didnt actually make an in game object it would be worded more like takes no damage from her own fire lash. If she releases her hold, Fire Lash ends imediatly. Fire Lash deals Your saying its impossible to sunder or disarm a fire lash? Hmm, i wonder what would its hardness and hp be? Mabey ill harass my dm with that question sunday... yes that could be fun.