Pyrokineticist + Tashalatora [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pyrokineticist + Tashalatora [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
floydian
10-29-07, 08:17 PM Was thinking about creating a Monk / Pyro build and have a question in regards to whether I can use the Tashalatora feat to advance my Monk abilities with Pyro.

To qualify for Tashalatora it states you need to be able to manifest 1st level powers, so I figured I could add in Warmind or Psychic warrior levels to get around this.

Anyways, to summarize is the Pyrokineticist considered a Psionic class, thus allowing me to advance my monkish abilities with Tashalatora?

Thanks for the help guys n gals.
Deekin
10-29-07, 08:26 PM I would say yes, but ask your DM.
Orenmir
10-31-07, 10:14 AM Is the Pyrokineticist considered a Psionic class?

That's what it all boils down to.

Pyro is really a normal PrC in which you must be Psionic to qualify for, and has many Psi-like abilities. Technically, it is not Psionic, IMO (because you don't spend PPs to manifest anything).

On the flip side, I can see an easy argument that it is Psionic. Afterall, it's in the XPH; and, the Psi-like abilities are derived via class, not race.

If somebody has an objective answer, I'd like to see the RAW. Otherwise, I'd say it's your DM's call.
InkBlot
10-31-07, 10:47 AM Afterall, it's in the XPH
The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class.
TheKeyofE
10-31-07, 11:50 AM The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class.

In the same way that Bloodstorm Blade (ToB) is a Martial PrC even though it doesn't advance martial maneuver progressions.
Orenmir
10-31-07, 12:21 PM The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class.

Well, I wouldn't say that's official RAW. But, it goes give ammunition for the argument.

Here is RAW from the XPH to argue otherwise:

Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points.

That line would suggest that Psionic is defined by having a PP reserve. Thus, a Psionic class would need to grant PPs (which Pyro doesn't).

Sure, there's a little bit of reading between the lines. I'm just trying to give each side of the argument an equal perspective. Like I said before, there's really no official ruling on what makes a class Psionic!

I think the strongest argument FOR claiming Pyro is a Psionic class is the fact that all the Psi-like abilities are class-derived.
SlanderPanic
10-31-07, 01:28 PM Does the pyrokineticist grant manifesting ability? No.
Does the pyrokineticist grant psionic abilities? Yes.

The latter seems the more important question to me. Psionics isn't just manifesting any more than magic is just spellcasting.
floydian
10-31-07, 11:57 PM Hey, thanks for everyone's answers. I came up with similar conclusions, I just hoped that there was some magical ruling somewhere that covered this, and I wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the help folks!
JulesCARV
11-02-07, 01:32 AM So... you're planning on swinging all the way from lawful to chaotic between your last monk level and your first pyrokineticist level, and as a monk, you're going to take monastic training (pyrokineticist)?

I suppose it works, since you can be chaotic and retain monk abilities, but it's a bit on the odd side. Ah well.
Orenmir
11-02-07, 10:24 AM Maybe he's a Chaos Monk -- flail is better than flurry anyways.
InkBlot
11-02-07, 11:00 AM Not to mention, he could pad it out with some levels of another class. Four levels of Psywar, four levels of Ardent (energy and elements mantles), or four levels of Swordsage (Desert Wind, natch) could really round out the character and make the most out of a high Wisdom.

edit: Just a thought; Zen Archery from Complete Warrior would allow you to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity to attack rolls with Fire Lash and Bolt Of Fire.
SlanderPanic
11-02-07, 11:20 AM I'm in agreement with Ink that a few levels of another class would serve well as a transition from monk to pyro. It makes a lot more sense, from a roleplaying standpoint, and it broadens options for your character.

Also, the Zen Archery suggestion is a great one, especially if you don't have great rolls. I've used it for NPC psychic warrior/pyros before. Max out Wisdom and you'll be golden.
ToastedAmphibian
11-02-07, 05:09 PM Here is RAW from the XPH to argue otherwise:

Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points.

Firewalk (Su)
Beginning at 6th level, as a free action a pyrokineticist can expend her psionic focus to literally walk on air. She moves at her normal speed in all directions, including vertically, but cannot move more than double her speed in a round. A firewalking pyro leaves footprints of flame in the air that disperse in 2 rounds, but her tread does not deal damage. She must pay 1 power point per round spent traveling in this fashion.

Also, having a power point reserve is a prereq for the class. So all pyros have a point reserve, and all pyros need to spen power points to power some of their abilites, atleast once they hit level 6, so id say it qualifies.

Also, psionic fist in the SRD has no alignment req, and still advances some monk abilites. It also gives you power points.

Also, about the alignment problem. The fluff for pyrokineticist easily provides the solution as to the alignment change. Pyromania. Just make sure that the structure you burn down for fun is your temple, and your set with a shiney new Chaotic (Evil) alignment, and ready to start taking levels.

Oh, and you really probably shouldnt go past level 8. Ninth and tenth level abilites are kinda BLAH. Leave the save-or-dies to the wizards and full manifesters. Full round attack to deal 4d8 fire damage? When you can do one punch that deals 8d6 fire damge?
ToastedAmphibian
11-02-07, 05:22 PM Also, war mind has an alignment restriction of "Non Chaotic" but dosnt have the same cavete of letting you keep your powers if you change alignment that the core classes do. So if you lose the requierments, you lose the class abilites. WarMind+Pyrokenticist=:{
floydian
11-04-07, 09:34 PM Also, war mind has an alignment restriction of "Non Chaotic" but dosnt have the same cavete of letting you keep your powers if you change alignment that the core classes do. So if you lose the requierments, you lose the class abilites. WarMind+Pyrokenticist=:{

Yep, I caught the Warmind restriction after posting. More then likely I'll do with something like Monk 4 / Psychic Warrior 2 (go nutso from the psionics kicken in) / Pyro 8 / Slayer 6 or some other Full BAB class (I think BAB 16)

I haven't really dug deep to see if this specific build is feasible or not. But thats what I'm currently thinken. Basically it boils down to me wanting to hit things hard with flaming hands.

Again thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. Much appreciated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
floydian 10-29-07, 08:17 PM	Was thinking about creating a Monk / Pyro build and have a question in regards to whether I can use the Tashalatora feat to advance my Monk abilities with Pyro. To qualify for Tashalatora it states you need to be able to manifest 1st level powers, so I figured I could add in Warmind or Psychic warrior levels to get around this. Anyways, to summarize is the Pyrokineticist considered a Psionic class, thus allowing me to advance my monkish abilities with Tashalatora? Thanks for the help guys n gals.
Deekin 10-29-07, 08:26 PM	I would say yes, but ask your DM.
Orenmir 10-31-07, 10:14 AM	Is the Pyrokineticist considered a Psionic class? That's what it all boils down to. Pyro is really a normal PrC in which you must be Psionic to qualify for, and has many Psi-like abilities. Technically, it is not Psionic, IMO (because you don't spend PPs to manifest anything). On the flip side, I can see an easy argument that it is Psionic. Afterall, it's in the XPH; and, the Psi-like abilities are derived via class, not race. If somebody has an objective answer, I'd like to see the RAW. Otherwise, I'd say it's your DM's call.
InkBlot 10-31-07, 10:47 AM	Afterall, it's in the XPH The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class.
TheKeyofE 10-31-07, 11:50 AM	The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class. In the same way that Bloodstorm Blade (ToB) is a Martial PrC even though it doesn't advance martial maneuver progressions.
Orenmir 10-31-07, 12:21 PM	The only definition the Expanded Psionics Handbook gives for "psionic class" is "classes in this book." Seriously, that's the only definition I could find.Therefore Pyrokineticist is a psionic class. Well, I wouldn't say that's official RAW. But, it goes give ammunition for the argument. Here is RAW from the XPH to argue otherwise: Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. That line would suggest that Psionic is defined by having a PP reserve. Thus, a Psionic class would need to grant PPs (which Pyro doesn't). Sure, there's a little bit of reading between the lines. I'm just trying to give each side of the argument an equal perspective. Like I said before, there's really no official ruling on what makes a class Psionic! I think the strongest argument FOR claiming Pyro is a Psionic class is the fact that all the Psi-like abilities are class-derived.
SlanderPanic 10-31-07, 01:28 PM	Does the pyrokineticist grant manifesting ability? No. Does the pyrokineticist grant psionic abilities? Yes. The latter seems the more important question to me. Psionics isn't just manifesting any more than magic is just spellcasting.
floydian 10-31-07, 11:57 PM	Hey, thanks for everyone's answers. I came up with similar conclusions, I just hoped that there was some magical ruling somewhere that covered this, and I wasn't aware of it. Thanks for the help folks!
JulesCARV 11-02-07, 01:32 AM	So... you're planning on swinging all the way from lawful to chaotic between your last monk level and your first pyrokineticist level, and as a monk, you're going to take monastic training (pyrokineticist)? I suppose it works, since you can be chaotic and retain monk abilities, but it's a bit on the odd side. Ah well.
Orenmir 11-02-07, 10:24 AM	Maybe he's a Chaos Monk -- flail is better than flurry anyways.
InkBlot 11-02-07, 11:00 AM	Not to mention, he could pad it out with some levels of another class. Four levels of Psywar, four levels of Ardent (energy and elements mantles), or four levels of Swordsage (Desert Wind, natch) could really round out the character and make the most out of a high Wisdom. edit: Just a thought; Zen Archery from Complete Warrior would allow you to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity to attack rolls with Fire Lash and Bolt Of Fire.
SlanderPanic 11-02-07, 11:20 AM	I'm in agreement with Ink that a few levels of another class would serve well as a transition from monk to pyro. It makes a lot more sense, from a roleplaying standpoint, and it broadens options for your character. Also, the Zen Archery suggestion is a great one, especially if you don't have great rolls. I've used it for NPC psychic warrior/pyros before. Max out Wisdom and you'll be golden.
ToastedAmphibian 11-02-07, 05:09 PM	Here is RAW from the XPH to argue otherwise: Psionic characters fuel their abilities through a pool, or reserve, of power points. Firewalk (Su) Beginning at 6th level, as a free action a pyrokineticist can expend her psionic focus to literally walk on air. She moves at her normal speed in all directions, including vertically, but cannot move more than double her speed in a round. A firewalking pyro leaves footprints of flame in the air that disperse in 2 rounds, but her tread does not deal damage. She must pay 1 power point per round spent traveling in this fashion. Also, having a power point reserve is a prereq for the class. So all pyros have a point reserve, and all pyros need to spen power points to power some of their abilites, atleast once they hit level 6, so id say it qualifies. Also, psionic fist in the SRD has no alignment req, and still advances some monk abilites. It also gives you power points. Also, about the alignment problem. The fluff for pyrokineticist easily provides the solution as to the alignment change. Pyromania. Just make sure that the structure you burn down for fun is your temple, and your set with a shiney new Chaotic (Evil) alignment, and ready to start taking levels. Oh, and you really probably shouldnt go past level 8. Ninth and tenth level abilites are kinda BLAH. Leave the save-or-dies to the wizards and full manifesters. Full round attack to deal 4d8 fire damage? When you can do one punch that deals 8d6 fire damge?
ToastedAmphibian 11-02-07, 05:22 PM	Also, war mind has an alignment restriction of "Non Chaotic" but dosnt have the same cavete of letting you keep your powers if you change alignment that the core classes do. So if you lose the requierments, you lose the class abilites. WarMind+Pyrokenticist=:{
floydian 11-04-07, 09:34 PM	Also, war mind has an alignment restriction of "Non Chaotic" but dosnt have the same cavete of letting you keep your powers if you change alignment that the core classes do. So if you lose the requierments, you lose the class abilites. WarMind+Pyrokenticist=:{ Yep, I caught the Warmind restriction after posting. More then likely I'll do with something like Monk 4 / Psychic Warrior 2 (go nutso from the psionics kicken in) / Pyro 8 / Slayer 6 or some other Full BAB class (I think BAB 16) I haven't really dug deep to see if this specific build is feasible or not. But thats what I'm currently thinken. Basically it boils down to me wanting to hit things hard with flaming hands. Again thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. Much appreciated.