Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danzibr2 12-01-07, 12:26 PM	I was looking at Stormlord from CD and they're just like the Pyro, except lightning. Oh, and they get full caster progression. Now, Pyro is alright, but having no manifester progression really stunts them. I'm thinking of having every even level add a manifester level. What does everyone else think? Dan
CrimsonDeath 12-01-07, 12:37 PM	I wouldn't say the Stormlord is just like the Pyro. For one thing, their powers only function during a storm. But then, I believe Control Weather (a Cleric spell) can fix that, so yeah, the Stormlord is probably strictly better than the Pyrokineticist. Personally, I agree that the Pyro needs a bit more kick, but I'm not sure how much manifesting could be added without unbalancing it.
danzibr2 12-01-07, 12:44 PM	So... do you think every third level would be better, or just no manifester progression at all? In which case, any suggestions? Or maybe they're actually really good and I just can't see how to pull the abilities together. I mean, they seem like a hybrid combat/psion, but the no manifester progression kind of kills it. On a side note, did anyone notice that the Stormlord's lvl 10 ability in the table isn't the same as the name of the last one they get? Dan
Enchanter_Tom 12-01-07, 09:12 PM	Yes, the pyrokineticist is underpowered. How to fix: --Bolt of fire damage is equal to 1d8+1 points of damage per level. --Can treat fire resistance of a target as being 5 lower at level 2; increases by 5 every 2 levels thereafter. --Can overcome fire immunity at level 7; immune targets take half damage. --Heat death has a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 class level + Charisma modifier. Damage taken on a successful save is equal to 1/2 damage of the pyrokineticist's bolt of fire damage. --All the other flame abilities of the pyrokineticist do +1 damage per die. --Nimbus needs not to suck. --Conflagration needs not to suck. --Firewalk does not cost power points; it lasts a certain number of rounds before having to be renewed by expending psionic focus.
InkBlot 12-02-07, 01:12 AM	The Pyro is weak, but I don't think it's broken-weak. A Pyro is like a Warlock who doesn't get to pick his invocations, and has fewer and less usefull class features overall. The Stormlord is definately too strong. Two sacrificial feats, and you get free +3 shocking thundering shocking burst javelins, a bucket full of other cool class features, and absolutely no hit or delay to your cleric spellcasting, HD, or BAB. I've seen it in action too; our party cleric didn't need our help before, and as a stormlord he actually would have done better without us in his way. I don't know how to fix the Pyro. Enchanter Tom's ideas are good, but don't seem to fix the main problem. I think I'd add in other ways for the Pyro to attack with fire, such as a matter agitation psi-like, and some new shapes (cone, line, etc) for his bolt of fire.
hovnarr 12-02-07, 11:52 AM	Just wanted to point out that Matter Agitation isn't fire damage, strictly. It works like a microwave, therefore lacks the [fire] descriptor. True, an object will eventually catch fire from the agitating effect, but the damage doesn't primarily come from this fire - it comes from the molecular agitation (internal rather than external). IMO, this makes MA stronger because it's non-typed damage.
InkBlot 12-02-07, 04:05 PM	IMO, the lack of a [fire] tag on matter agitation was an editing error and it should be obvious from the poewr description that it deals fire damage. HOWEVER, it's still thematic for the pyro to get.
hovnarr 12-02-07, 05:19 PM	Agreed, it's still thematic despite lacking [fire] and that also makes it a good back-up for the pyro against fire immune foes.
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 05:52 PM	Note that if you treat matter agitation as not being fire typed damage then lava is also not fire typed damage so a fire elemental will take damage from being in and near lava.. which means that fire elementals cannot survive on the elemental plane of fire ;)
Deekin 12-02-07, 06:22 PM	Note that if you treat matter agitation as not being fire typed damage then lava is also not fire typed damage so a fire elemental will take damage from being in and near lava.. which means that fire elementals cannot survive on the elemental plane of fire ;) Man What? Lava Effects Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round. Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round). An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava. Fire-Dominant Planes with this trait are composed of flames that continually burn without consuming their fuel source. Fire-dominant planes are extremely hostile to Material Plane creatures, and those without resistance or immunity to fire are soon immolated. Unprotected wood, paper, cloth, and other flammable materials catch fire almost immediately, and those wearing unprotected flammable clothing catch on fire. In addition, individuals take 3d10 points of fire damage every round they are on a fire-dominant plane. Creatures of the water subtype are extremely uncomfortable on fire-dominant planes. Those that are made of water take double damage each round. Matter Agitation does deal typeless damage however.
CrimsonDeath 12-02-07, 06:26 PM	Note that if you treat matter agitation as not being fire typed damage then lava is also not fire typed damage so a fire elemental will take damage from being in and near lava.. which means that fire elementals cannot survive on the elemental plane of fire ;) I didn't bother to check the DMG, but the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) states that fire resistance and immunity apply against damage due to exposure to lava.
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 06:29 PM	It is also the same wording for being in a hot environment. The point is that they are all described as 'heat'. At some point if you treat matter agitation as effectively typeless then something resulting from a heat source like fire is not protected against. I could've just referenced the effects of being in a hot environment, but lava has more of an impact. I guess people need the less flashy reference ;)
Enchanter_Tom 12-03-07, 02:42 AM	Protip: Any class can be made to suck less by adding more dice of damage.
hovnarr 12-03-07, 03:33 AM	Well, heat and fire are decidedly different sources of damage. Fire is a combustion process where a fuel is basically converted to ash while energy is produced. This presupposes the fuel being able to actually "catch fire". Stuff with fire resistance won't catch fire easily, much like objects with high hardness. This does not grant universal immunity to the effects of energy on matter. For example, electricity (much like matter agitation), deals damage by overloading the target with energy, and is a distinct type of energy where fire resistance doesn't apply. When it comes to lava, what do you think is the predominant source of its harmful effects? Now, I've never seen flesh immersed in lava, but I'm guessing the structural damage from the surface flesh being combusted and shrivelling up >> the heat transducted into the tissue. I'm guessing [fire] was not left out of Matter Agitation unintentionally, but that it's lacking due to a similar rationale as the one above. Bruce Cordell demonstrated a similar line of thinking in excluding the traditional acid damage from the psionic elemental repertoire, since acid isn't "energy" in the same sense as cold, fire, sonic and electricity is.
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 04:51 AM	Protip: Any class can be made to suck less by adding more dice of damage. Although some classes need more dice than others to save them. Bruce Cordell demonstrated a similar line of thinking in excluding the traditional acid damage from the psionic elemental repertoire, since acid isn't "energy" in the same sense as cold, fire, sonic and electricity is. Technically, "cold" isn't "energy" either. It's the absence of a particular kind of energy. (I know what you mean, though, and I agree.)
Scion of Coldshard 12-03-07, 10:19 AM	Well, heat and fire are decidedly different sources of damage. D&D uses the terms interchangeably. Take these examples for instance: Combustion (Ex) Anyone a magmin touches must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take an extra 1d8 points of fire damage as clothes ignite or armor becomes searing hot. The damage continues for another 1d4+2 rounds after the magmin’s last successful attack. Magmins can also ignite flammable materials with a touch. The save DC is Constitution-based. You can excite the structure of a nonpsionic, nonmagical object, heating it to the point of combustion over time. The agitation grows more intense in the second and third rounds after you manifest the power, as described below. Heat metal makes metal extremely warm. A creature takes fire damage if its equipment is heated. Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. In d&d if something is hot enough to cause damage then that damage is fire damage, regardless of whether or not the description actually says fire damage. If you do it differently the Fire Elementals on the Elemental Plane of Fire die from the heat.
InkBlot 12-03-07, 10:28 AM	Thankyou, Scion Of Coldshard. I'm glad someone else sees it the same way.
Enchanter_Tom 12-03-07, 12:53 PM	Stop overthinking it. Things get retarded when one overthinks them.
Scion of Coldshard 12-03-07, 01:09 PM	Thanks for the support InkBlot ;) For the thread topic though I would say the class could have 6 to 8 manifester levels without too much of a problem. I would get rid of the save or die effect that they have personally as well, but then I hate save or die effects and remove them all from my game. If the character didnt have any manifesting levels I'd be very tempted to just give them the war minds manifesting progression. To go along with that I would likely give the player the choice of whether to gain the war mind progression or boost their already existing manifesting class. Hmm.. thinking about it even more giving a further extra option of stacking some number of the levels with soulknife might be a decent plan as well.. I am still thinking in the 7-8 range.. I like it! ;)
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 02:12 PM	I would get rid of the save or die effect that they have personally as well, but then I hate save or die effects and remove them all from my game. Including monsters? (Medusas, Bodaks, etc)
Scion of Coldshard 12-03-07, 02:27 PM	Including monsters? (Medusas, Bodaks, etc) Generally, yes. The exceptions are typically things that dont actually kill but might render a character more or less helpless until someone fixes them. As an example, a long while back the pc's broke into an old treasure hold.. they thought it was their lucky day of course, but were weary of guardians of course.. as they wandered around some of the statues came to life, guardians made entirely of gold. When the guardians hit a pc they made a fort save with part of them turning to gold and the relative amount based on whether or not they passed the check. No one was hit enough to turn completely to gold, but if they had been then I would've handed the player a sheet with his new stats and told him that he suddenly realizes that there are some nongold intruders into his home and that they should be punished accordingly... That way everyone is worried about the slow transformation, and even if someone did get taken out they would still be involved somehow. In my mind that is much, much better than save or die or a single save taking a character out entirely for long periods of time ;) To put a bit more finish on the story above one of the pc's was ~75% gold for quite some time before they figured out how to remove it..lol
Belabras 12-04-07, 01:42 PM	There are ways to make the ol' Pyro not suck, but it generally involves a level of Exotic weapon master. The key is that the Flame Lash, while a melee weapon with reach, makes a touch attack to hit. If you are just using the lash on it's own, and don't have anything modifying it but Weapon Aflame, that's not fantastic. Where it starts to shine is when you add in things like Sneak Attack damage, Finesse damage (thank you Swashbuckler), ToB manuevers, Skirmish damage (thank you Scout), or psionic weapon modifiers like Envenom. Now you are stacking all kinds of damage dice onto a short range touch attack, and you get iterative attacks with it. Add in that level of Exotic Weapon Master and you can use the lash in melee without AoOs. Doesn't look so underpowered now eh?
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 02:17 PM	There are ways to make the ol' Pyro not suck, but it generally involves a level of Exotic weapon master. The key is that the Flame Lash, while a melee weapon with reach, makes a touch attack to hit. If you are just using the lash on it's own, and don't have anything modifying it but Weapon Aflame, that's not fantastic. Where it starts to shine is when you add in things like Sneak Attack damage, Finesse damage (thank you Swashbuckler), ToB manuevers, Skirmish damage (thank you Scout), or psionic weapon modifiers like Envenom. Now you are stacking all kinds of damage dice onto a short range touch attack, and you get iterative attacks with it. Add in that level of Exotic Weapon Master and you can use the lash in melee without AoOs. Doesn't look so underpowered now eh? Sounds pretty close to a Glaivelock build.
SlanderPanic 12-04-07, 02:40 PM	Depending on how strictly you rule it, a flame lash may not be able to affect creatures wearing armor or with good natural armor. Common sense rules out that it would have this flaw, but RAW declares it so.
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 03:42 PM	Depending on how strictly you rule it, a flame lash may not be able to affect creatures wearing armor or with good natural armor. Common sense rules out that it would have this flaw, but RAW declares it so. Not really. A Fire Lash differs from a whip in a number of ways. Damage die (1d8) Damage type (lethal fire) Attack roll (ranged, without Weapon Finesse) Target AC (touch) That's probably different enough that the Fire Lash can still deal damage to creatures with armor or natural armor. Especially since the necessary attack roll ignores armor and natural armor.
Belabras 12-04-07, 04:30 PM	Sounds pretty close to a Glaivelock build. It's quite similar. The Pyro's Lash has more reach, but doesn't threaten, and he doesn't getting the extra damage dice with additional levels the Glaivelock gets. Make's it more friendly to multiclass builds, but not as good for mono or dual class builds.
danzibr2 12-06-07, 02:24 PM	There are ways to make the ol' Pyro not suck, but it generally involves a level of Exotic weapon master. The key is that the Flame Lash, while a melee weapon with reach, makes a touch attack to hit. If you are just using the lash on it's own, and don't have anything modifying it but Weapon Aflame, that's not fantastic. Where it starts to shine is when you add in things like Sneak Attack damage, Finesse damage (thank you Swashbuckler), ToB manuevers, Skirmish damage (thank you Scout), or psionic weapon modifiers like Envenom. Now you are stacking all kinds of damage dice onto a short range touch attack, and you get iterative attacks with it. Add in that level of Exotic Weapon Master and you can use the lash in melee without AoOs. Doesn't look so underpowered now eh? So the pyro should be used as tricky melee class and not a manifester class at all? Who's going to have high charisma to make their abilities good or enough power points to maintain other abilities? Yeah, I'm sure it's possible to make them slightly more than mediocre, but considering they need 9 ranks of concentration, at least one power point and decent charisma to shine, the utter lack of manifester progression makes them rather unappealing. I mean, look at Stormlord. So, to answer your question... still underpowered in my eyes. Dan
SlanderPanic 12-06-07, 02:55 PM	It might be fun to go bard/pyro. Just a thought.
InkBlot 12-06-07, 03:46 PM	Who's going to have high charisma to make their abilities good or enough power points to maintain other abilities? Yeah, I'm sure it's possible to make them slightly more than mediocre, but considering they need 9 ranks of concentration, at least one power point and decent charisma to shine, the utter lack of manifester progression makes them rather unappealing. Pyros don't need Charisma at all. The only thing they use Charisma for is Conflagration and Heat Death, both of which such anyway. There's no good reason to take Pyro past 8th level, so there's no reason for a Pyro to worry about Charisma. The only thing Pyros use power points for is Firewalk. It's nice, but at that level it's no big deal to ask the caster in your party to cast fly on you, or to pick up an item of fly (Winged Boots, Flying Carpet, Broom Of Flying, Cloak Of The Bat, etc). You can get at least one power point easily by taking Wild Talent or playing a psionic race. That's all you need to take those juicy psionic feats. If you don't enter the class as a manifester, then you don't need to worry about keeping your power point total high. Concentration is a class skill for Monks, Paladins, and Rangers. A dip into any of these (Ranger is the best, IMO) will help you qualify for the Concentration requirement. Martial Study (any Diamond Mind) maneuver will also give you Concentration as a permanent class skill. The other skill requirements are extremely low, making it easy to take them cross-class. A single classed Soulknife qualifies for Pyrokineticist extremely easily. Fighter2/Barbarian2/Ranger2 also qualifies extremely easily. If you can make a flame lash for each hand, then you can use both rapid shot and two weapon fighting with it (like a thrown weapon). This can get insane with a thri-kreen pyro (like in the picture).
ToastedAmphibian 12-06-07, 07:44 PM	Also, a monk (After alignment change, of course) makes a nice pyro. Hand afire and Weapon Afire stack on a monks unarmed strike, and even a single round firewalk can be really handy when you have a movment speed of 70ft.
InkBlot 12-06-07, 08:01 PM	Ah, yes. Monk/Pyro. There was a thread on that combo a while ago. I like the idea of Monk4/Swordsage4/Pyro8/Swordsage4. Durring your Swordsage levels take some Desert Wind maneuvers for extra fiery goodness. Swordsage and Warblade each have Concentration as a class skill. Psionics meshes very well with ToB material. Most strikes are standard actions involving only a single attack, which is perfect for the Psionic Weapon line of feats (with Psionic Meditation). Diamond Mind has many maneuvers which call for Concentration checks, which you can take 15 on by expending your psionic focus.
Enchanter_Tom 12-07-07, 06:14 AM	You could try a chaos monk, although they are dumb.
danzibr2 12-07-07, 07:33 AM	Pyros don't need Charisma at all. The only thing they use Charisma for is Conflagration and Heat Death, both of which such anyway. There's no good reason to take Pyro past 8th level, so there's no reason for a Pyro to worry about Charisma. The only thing Pyros use power points for is Firewalk. It's nice, but at that level it's no big deal to ask the caster in your party to cast fly on you, or to pick up an item of fly (Winged Boots, Flying Carpet, Broom Of Flying, Cloak Of The Bat, etc). You can get at least one power point easily by taking Wild Talent or playing a psionic race. That's all you need to take those juicy psionic feats. If you don't enter the class as a manifester, then you don't need to worry about keeping your power point total high. Concentration is a class skill for Monks, Paladins, and Rangers. A dip into any of these (Ranger is the best, IMO) will help you qualify for the Concentration requirement. Martial Study (any Diamond Mind) maneuver will also give you Concentration as a permanent class skill. The other skill requirements are extremely low, making it easy to take them cross-class. A single classed Soulknife qualifies for Pyrokineticist extremely easily. Fighter2/Barbarian2/Ranger2 also qualifies extremely easily. If you can make a flame lash for each hand, then you can use both rapid shot and two weapon fighting with it (like a thrown weapon). This can get insane with a thri-kreen pyro (like in the picture). Now that makes them sound less lucky. I dunno, I guess I was just trying to take advantage of every single one of their class skills. Especially Conflagration, just seemed cool to me. Anyways, thanks for your ideas everyone. Dan