Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesiolan 12-01-07, 02:21 AM	With the Energy Conversion power, you may discharge the stored energy with ray attacks. These deal up to ML x3 energy damage. What manifester level we are talking about? Is it the ML the character currently has, when he actually attacks with the rays? Or is it the ML the character had, when he manifested the Energy Conversion power? As we all know, this can be a difference (wild surge; overchannel feat; EC was manifested from an item for a fixed ML...) I think, since the rays come from the EC power, the ML you had when you manifested the EC power is used. This makes the combination of Overchannel/Wild Surge+EC very appealing - manifest it off combat and charge yourself with energy. Dish out (ML+3)x3 energy attacks for a long time. Do you agree?
hovnarr 12-01-07, 04:19 AM	Yes. You can also slap other boosting effects on EC upon manifestation, such as Split Psionic Ray. That gives you 2 rays instead of one, for only 2 more pp that are probably free for a wilder anyway. Also share it with your psicrystal and have it fire 2 rays too if your DM allows.
CrimsonDeath 12-01-07, 12:08 PM	Also note that your Schism (if you have one) can shoot rays as well, and although its ML is lower than your normal ML, I believe the rays still use your ML when you manifested the power.
hovnarr 12-01-07, 09:47 PM	Oooh, and let's not forget Fission. Yet another thing that could be shared with the psicrystal. Fissioned, schismed, split, shared. That's like 2^4 = 16 rays, each at 3*ML if interepreted strictly, each round. That's a lot.
Scion of Coldshard 12-01-07, 11:44 PM	I agree that the manifester level that it cares about is what it was manifested at ;) The split ray and schism uses are a bit more questionable though.
hovnarr 12-02-07, 11:47 AM	I think sharing is the most questionable of the four. What specifies that a psicrystal is competent to fire an energy ray? Has it had psionic training or does it know the power in question (no). Only the rationale that it's a fragment of its master seems to apply, but that's not enough to let it manifest powers on its own. What's to say it's enough to let it discharge psionic rays? Just to play with the idea of using all four: *Split, shared EC for 15 pp. Energy Wall for 5 pp to charge it in advance. *First round of combat: -Extended Temporal Acceleration: 13 pp (2 rounds free time). --TA rd1: Schism --TA rd2: Fission -First round standard actions: 16 rays at 3xML damage = 48xML damage PER ROUND for a total of 33 pp. Even counting only the first round, that's cheaper than 1pp per ML damage you dish out. Pretty awesome considering that 1pp typically nets you 1d6+1 damage, once.
Jaid 12-02-07, 12:09 PM	the psicrystal can do it because the rules allow it. the schism would have to have it's own energy conversion power running, and presumably it would have to be of a different type of energy (or else it would overlap, and have no function, including an inability to absorb energy to release in ray form). this still allows the possibility of (for example) standing in a wall of energy while holding a torch against yourself. also, afaict, both iterations of energy conversion could be shared with the psicrystal (though the psicrystal doesn't gain any actions to use the second iteration, so it would only be useful if it required a specific type of energy damage).
Zathress 12-02-07, 12:56 PM	the psicrystal can do it because the rules allow it. the schism would have to have it's own energy conversion power running, and presumably it would have to be of a different type of energy Of course energy conversion grants resistance to all energy types as per Energy Adaptation.
hovnarr 12-02-07, 01:04 PM	Energy conversion affects your body, not your mind. It seems perfectly reasonable that if your normal mind can tap into this energy reservoir, the schismed fragment can too. You do share the same body, after all. I'm still not at all convinced that a psicrystal can discharge a ray. Where in the rules does it state as much? Even the assumption that it can make an attack at all seems questionable, as is being debated in another thread on this board. On a similar note - if a druid shares Produce Flame with his bear animal companion, does this suddenly make the bear competent to hurl flames at targets?
Zathress 12-02-07, 02:48 PM	Energy conversion affects your body, not your mind. It seems perfectly reasonable that if your normal mind can tap into this energy reservoir, the schismed fragment can too. You do share the same body, after all. I'm still not at all convinced that a psicrystal can discharge a ray. Where in the rules does it state as much? Even the assumption that it can make an attack at all seems questionable, as is being debated in another thread on this board. On a similar note - if a druid shares Produce Flame with his bear animal companion, does this suddenly make the bear competent to hurl flames at targets? Well I'd question the bear's ability to hurl the balls of fire as it has an Int score of 2 and wouldn't understand how. However you could teach the animal the trick I suppose Psicrystals gain the ability to deliver touch spells so obviously they can make an attack. Deliver Touch Powers (Su) If the owner is 3rd level or higher, his psicrystal can deliver touch powers for him. If the owner and psicrystal are in contact at the time the owner manifests a touch power, he can designate his psicrystal as the “toucher.” The psicrystal can then deliver the touch power just as the owner could. As usual, if the owner manifests another power before the touch is delivered, the touch power dissipates. If the psion can use the crystal to deliver touch powers then the crystal can make an attack at least when delivering one of the psions abilities. As a psicrystal has an intelligence score of at least six so its smart enough to fire a ray should it be granted the ability. The only question is what would the attack bonus on the crystal be but lets leave that to the other boards.
CrimsonDeath 12-02-07, 02:49 PM	It should be noted that the Psicrystal is unaffected by Schism, being immune to it. You could fix that by manifesting Metamorphosis on it, but that drains seven more PP. I'm still not at all convinced that a psicrystal can discharge a ray. Where in the rules does it state as much? The target of any Personal-range power is "You". Any time such a power states that "you" can do something, any target of the power can do it. Since the power is shared withthe psicrystal, the psicrystal is a target, so it can do anything that "you" can do. On a similar note - if a druid shares Produce Flame with his bear animal companion, does this suddenly make the bear competent to hurl flames at targets? That would probably require teaching it a new Trick (Discharge Spell? It's not something Animals normally do, so the Handle Animal DC would probably be 25 or 30...) A more likely thing to happen would be for the bear to simply add fire damage to attacks with one claw.
InkBlot 12-02-07, 03:08 PM	I'm still not at all convinced that a psicrystal can discharge a ray. Where in the rules does it state as much? Even the assumption that it can make an attack at all seems questionable, as is being debated in another thread on this board. When you share energy conversion with your psicrystal, you're essentially manifesting it twice. Once one you, and once for free on your psicrystal. The psicrystal would get it's own reserve of energy damage to shoot back. As far as I know, there's no debate on whether or not psicrystals can make attack rolls. The only debate was whether or not they have unarmed strikes. So long as they have something to attack with (such as a little longsword), they can make attack rolls. This is assuming that the psicrystal's master let it have limbs. Without limbs it is reasonable to say it can't aim the ray.
Favored Enemy 12-02-07, 03:11 PM	I'm glad I came across this thread as only last night I was considering whether Split Psionic Ray worked with energy conversion. I could see this either way. Is there any official word on this?
Lycanthromancer 12-02-07, 03:36 PM	It produces a ray, so yes. The question isn't really whether or not it will work, but if Split Psionic Ray will double the rate at which you deplete your energy reserves. I say probably, but since using the feat doesn't deplete your pp reserve at a faster rate (other than the 2pp it cost to add the metapsionic effect), possibly not.
Favored Enemy 12-02-07, 03:59 PM	I don't see it as certainly as you. Split Psionic Ray states, "You can split psionic rays you manifest." I'm not sure that just because Energy Conversion produces rays, that it manifests them. A power manifests when the psionic character pays its power point cost. The character pays the cost, and the power manifests immediately. The power description states that you "discharge" the power as a ray, not "manifest" the power as a ray. Perhaps word lawyering, perhaps adherance to definition.
CrimsonDeath 12-02-07, 06:21 PM	Without limbs it is reasonable to say it can't aim the ray. I don't think that's reasonable at all. Would you say that if a Psion didn't have limbs, then he couldn't fire rays?
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 06:30 PM	I don't think that's reasonable at all. Would you say that if a Psion didn't have limbs, then he couldn't fire rays? I suppose that depends on how exacting one wants to treat the rules. You create a ray of energy of the chosen type that shoots forth from your fingertip...
Zathress 12-02-07, 07:16 PM	Energy Conversion makes to mention of a ray being fired from your finger tips. Your looking at the power Energy Ray. Even so many creatures are often capable of casting spells that have a point of origin from a body part they don't have. A Couatl casts spells as a 9th level sorcerer (not spell-like abilities as a 9th level sorcerer). They have no hands or finger tips yet they know ray of frost which is fired from your finger tip. Thus a lack of limbs has no effect on the ability to fire a ray. Limbs are only important for spells when the spell actually effects the limbs. Such as fuse limbs, fins to feet etc. Fangs of the Vampire King and having a mouth. A vorpal sword and the target having a head.
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 07:26 PM	They have no hands or finger tips yet they know ray of frost which is fired from your finger tip. Thus a lack of limbs has no effect on the ability to fire a ray. Note that while I agree in general and in my own games I am pretty loose about it I can certainly see where a person could be well within the rules to say that creatures without appropriate limbs as mentioned in any specific spell/power description might not be able to use the spell/power properly or even at all. Also, just because a monsters entry mentions that they are able to do something doesnt necessarily mean that the rules agree with that. There are too many monster and sample character entries that are in error after all ;/ But even if a creature could use it that doesnt mean that it is a general rule about all circumstances the effect could be used in.
Zathress 12-02-07, 07:30 PM	Even if that is so, Energy Conversion makes to mention of the ray being fired from any one limb.
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 07:36 PM	Even if that is so, Energy Conversion makes to mention of the ray being fired from any one limb. Not really important to my point though ;) The two are similar enough in function that if a dm wanted to figure out how to rule it then it would be perfectly reasonable to check the energy ray power for help.
CrimsonDeath 12-02-07, 07:44 PM	Not really important to my point though ;) The two are similar enough in function that if a dm wanted to figure out how to rule it then it would be perfectly reasonable to check the energy ray power for help. But I can certainly see where a person could be well within the rules to say that a spell/power whose description doesn't mention any specific part of the body could be used by creatures that lack body partis generally associated with humanoids.
Scion of Coldshard 12-02-07, 07:56 PM	But I can certainly see where a person could be well within the rules to say that a spell/power whose description doesn't mention any specific part of the body could be used by creatures that lack body partis generally associated with humanoids. Of course ;) but this little side trip started with talk about what was reasonable.. both can be, depending on which path one wishes to take to the answer.
hovnarr 12-03-07, 03:54 AM	So to sum it up, we arrive at the same conclusion this board has arrived at before: all methods to gain more rays (sharing, splitting, schism and fission) have their issues, and should be discussed with your DM before you go off and base a high level build around them. However, EC is a pretty powerful pp conservation strategy on its own, no matter what your DM allows. It's just a question of it being icing on the psionic cake, or the stripper bursting forth from it.
Suspect_Unusual 12-03-07, 03:54 AM	Another question concerning Energy Conversion: Preface: Many (if not all) of the powers that deal energy damage, and have the option of dealing sonic damage, mention that the sonic damage from this power ignores hardness. This is mentioned, I assume, because sonic damage normally does not ignore hardness (it merely isn't halved or quartered like other energy damage types that aren't acid). For the purposes of my question, let's assume that that is the case, since I'm aware some people disagree with that interpretation. Question: If I use Energy Wall and Energy Conversion to build up a reserve of sonic energy to use as a ray, would that sonic energy ignore hardness (as per Energy Wall's sonic damage description) or not (as per normal rules for sonic damage)? Thanks!
hovnarr 12-03-07, 04:01 AM	And on that note - would choosing electricity give +2 to overcoming PR/SR? Generally, I'd say no, because the EC power doesn't reference the "psionic elements" with their special effects, it references adaptation: attack that deals acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage Notice that acid is in there, which means you could shoot acid EC rays, which you can't do with Energy Ray for instance. So that implies to me that "sonic" means core [sonic] and not the psionic sonic energy alternative.
Mesiolan 12-03-07, 04:45 AM	The EC power is the source of the stored energy. It stores psionic sonic energy. All psionic sonic energy ignores hardnes, perhaps with the exception of some energy powers of ComPSi (energy barrage does not mention it explicitly, but others - I can't tell, AFBN). But ComPSi is that badly edited, that I assume it'd be an editing error. So, since you are using sonic energy from an energy wall, which excludes hardness, I'd say, it ignores hardness. Back to main topic, thank you all for the discussion. There are practical problems creating that many rays: Fission and Schism are discipline powers, requiring feats. To slap schism on your psicrystal, you need to metamorph it (another discipline power). You need a psicrystal, and split psionic ray, which has another metapsi-feat as a prerequisite. So, to get 16 rays, you need about 6 feats, and be 14th level if you are egoist (you need 2 powers 7th level) - or 15th if you are not an egoist (expanded knowledge for fission at 15th level earliest). To make good use of it, the EC should be extended (to last longer). You need to have the time to store thousands of energy HP. Which itself will take some thoughts - how many energy attacks with max. 30 HP/attack can you pile onto yourself during breakfast? Four energy walls charge 2d6+12 (sonic) /2d6+14 (electr) /2d6+16 (fire) /2d6+16 (cold) = 84 HP/rd., for up to Lv. +1 rds = 1260 HP for each of you and your crystal. This costs 20pp alone. If you ask your buddies, they may help you with additional stuff, but they'll burn resources in advance, too. 16 rays 3xML = 672 HP/round will deplete you pretty soon. At 20th level, an overchanneled, split, schismed, fissoned, shared with crystal EC power allows for 16 rays x 3x23 (ML) = 1.104 HP. If you do this nova build, make sure to ask your DM in advance. And watch out - a single dispel magic / dsipel psionics will ruin your day.
Suspect_Unusual 12-03-07, 12:57 PM	Take a closer look at the duration of Energy Wall. Duration: Concentration + 1 round/ level No listed maximum, and it's concentration + 1 round/level, which means the +ML duration only occurs after you stop concentrating. You never have to stop concentrating until you want too. At 14th level, you could be taking in 2d6 +16 cold damage each round, average 23 per round. 1 minute gives you 230 damage. 10 minutes gives you 2300 damage. All for 5 power points... not including the pp for the Split Psionic Ray, Schism, Fission, Share Power, and/or everything else.
InkBlot 12-03-07, 02:43 PM	You can recharge your energy conversion on the cheap by simply building a bonfire, and sitting in the middle of it. That will give you 1d6/round fire damage. If you don't have any wood around (like you're in the middle of a desert), then an ML 13 minor creation can make piles of it for only 1 power point.
Psyrus 12-03-07, 07:19 PM	It looks like Power Penetration (and Greater) can be used with Energy Conversion. If so, then you'd only need to expend your focus when first manifesting the power. Then each ray you shoot gains the +4 or +8 (Greater PP) ML bonus without the need to continually expend/regain focus.
Suspect_Unusual 12-03-07, 07:28 PM	It looks like Power Penetration (and Greater) can be used with Energy Conversion. If so, then you'd only need to expend your focus when first manifesting the power. Then each ray you shoot gains the +4 or +8 (Greater PP) ML bonus without the need to continually expend/regain focus. Albeit a +4 or 8 ML bonus to checks to overcome power resistance, of course. You wouldn't get the extra 12 or 24 energy damage with it, certainly.
hovnarr 12-04-07, 11:46 AM	If you want to add more damage at the time of firing, focus can be expended for greater psionic shot (feat intensive) or wounding (-1 to Con typically "deals" a lot of "damage". Taking another #HD hit to hp every two ray hits isn't too shabby, plus a low Con/#HD target may die from con before dying from hp loss (a vigored psion comes to mind).