Question about burst powers centered on manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question about burst powers centered on manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hunterc311
10-19-07, 12:54 AM Regarding powers like energy burst, does the power affect a creature that is on the manifester's person? IE a tiny creature attached to a manifester's leg or stuffed in their backpack.

I ask this because a psicrystal is a creature that is on the psion's person but does not get hit when a psion manifests a burst power centered on them.

Is it any different if a different creature is similarly "on" the psion's person? And if so, why would it be?
strenoth
10-19-07, 01:03 AM Any other creature would be considered grappling, as the psion does not want it on him, so after you made the relevant concentration checks, I woudl think you would hit any tiny sized creature on you. Consider it a decision made upon manifesting/casting, just how close to yrou skin does it get?
InkBlot
10-19-07, 02:40 AM Regarding powers like energy burst, does the power affect a creature that is on the manifester's person?
Yes. Even if that creature is the psion's psicrystal.

HOWEVER, a creature in the psion's backpack would have total cover against the energy burst. The backpack provides cover and concealment to things inside it. Since the backpack is an object attended by the psion, it doesn't get damaged by the burst, and the creature inside isn't at risk of losing it's cover. If the psion were desperate, then he might drop the backpack (free action) before manifesting the burst, in order to destroy it and uncover the creature.
cyberpunk
10-19-07, 07:29 AM what if the psicrystal is worn as the center stone of a necklace?
Bacris
10-19-07, 10:01 AM what if the psicrystal is worn as the center stone of a necklace?
Then it's an attended object and is unaffected.
AntiDjinn
10-19-07, 10:18 AM Any "centered on you" effect (be it burst, emanation, or spread) hits every qualifying target in the area except you. Making a hole wide enough to exempt anything else takes a feat. Consider how upset you would be if you were being attacked by stirges or giant ticks and the DM ruled that because they are tiny and in your space they are immune to area blasts centered on you. If your psicrystal is on your person then it is an attended item and only required to make a saving throw if you roll a natch 1 on yours; that will not happen since you are not required to roll a save. If your psicrystal is not on your person, not granted full cover, and in the area, then you could potentially blast it; this is just an issue where you should be paying attention and aware of the positions of friendly targets. It does have evasion, so it is likely to take no damage. If the pet rock is in the area along with multiple foes, you could just use Ultrablast which will ignore the rock because it is 1) not an enemy and 2) immune.
InkBlot
10-19-07, 05:47 PM Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object. It can't be an attended object since it isn't an object. Where are you getting the idea that the psicrystal is somehow an exception to all the normal rules? Is there some clause somewhere that I missed?

If you don't want your psicrystal caught in the blast, then tell it to hop in your backpack (or some other kind of cover).
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 07:30 PM Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object. It can't be an attended object since it isn't an object. Where are you getting the idea that the psicrystal is somehow an exception to all the normal rules? Is there some clause somewhere that I missed?

If you don't want your psicrystal caught in the blast, then tell it to hop in your backpack (or some other kind of cover).

What about an intelligent weapon? Is it a creature, too? It has Wisdom and Charisma scores.
Millenia
10-19-07, 09:29 PM Even if the psicrystal is caught in the blast, as AntiDjinn said, it has numerous ways to reduce the damage to barely a scratch: Improved Evasion (halves or totally negates damage), Power Resistance (25% chance of negation), Hardness 8 (regular damage from sonic/acid, half from electricity and fire and subtracted by 8, one-quarter damage from cold and subtracted by 8). So, even if you threw out a powerful.... power (*rimshot*), most of the damage will be reduced by at least half, to plainly being negated.... Not to mention that you can voluntarily elect to fail your "beat power resistance" ML check... right?
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 10:08 PM Hardness 8 (regular damage from sonic/acid, half from electricity and fire and subtracted by 8, one-quarter damage from cold and subtracted by 8)
Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8.
Bacris
10-19-07, 10:14 PM Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object.

Good point - although if it's part of a necklace or other such device, it could be argued it has cover :)
Millenia
10-19-07, 10:35 PM Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8.
Oh. Meh. Damn technicalities.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that shared powers can help the Psicrystal survive the damage - such as the Energy Adaption line of powers, Power Resistance....
Sagetim
10-19-07, 11:58 PM Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8.

which is why it would be awesome to have a psionic version of hardness. (yes, I realize that matter manipulation can raise and lower, I'm talking raise only, and without that xp cost). Or having a buddy who's a mage...or an artificier....mmmm, raise hardness of target object by 1/2 caster level....mmmm. That's 5 points at level 11. Ten at 20, more the higher ya go.

also, if you were to use, say, share powers and energy conversion...would you get a beam attack of the damage it absorbed from your burst?
CrimsonDeath
10-20-07, 01:10 AM also, if you were to use, say, share powers and energy conversion...would you get a beam attack of the damage it absorbed from your burst?

That's actually a pretty fun tactic. (Or, at least, I'm told it is.) Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Extend Power, then learn the powers Energy Conversion, Energy Wall, and Schism. Now, just before you head into the dungeon, manifest an Extended Energy Conversion, then manifest Energy Wall and spend a few minutes soaking up damage. When you actually run into some enemies, manifest Schism and you have three rays per round (one for you, one for the Schism, and one for the crystal).
Sagetim
10-20-07, 03:47 AM That's actually a pretty fun tactic. (Or, at least, I'm told it is.) Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Extend Power, then learn the powers Energy Conversion, Energy Wall, and Schism. Now, just before you head into the dungeon, manifest an Extended Energy Conversion, then manifest Energy Wall and spend a few minutes soaking up damage. When you actually run into some enemies, manifest Schism and you have three rays per round (one for you, one for the Schism, and one for the crystal).

can the crystal even fire a ray? o.O
CrimsonDeath
10-20-07, 11:08 AM can the crystal even fire a ray? o.O

If you share Energy Conversion with it and it takes energy damage, then it can. It's a creature, which means it can take actions, and Energy Conversion gives it something it can do with those actions. And even if your DM doesn't believe that it has a Construct's BAB, it still stands a pretty good chance of hitting-- +2 Dex and +2 Size vs. Touch AC.

Note that you can't share Schism with it-- It's immune.
Lycanthromancer
10-20-07, 01:46 PM Except if you share metamorphosis with it. That, and the Split Psionic Ray feat would net you 8 rays per round. that's 24 x ML in damage if you hit with all of them. Taking Improved Critical: Ray and Greater Psionic Shot would ramp the damage up considerably, too.

This is assuming, of course, that you don't have feats for your psicrystal. If you gave your little crystalline buddy feats specifically to increase the damage and accuracy on ranged attacks, you could deal some serious hurtage to your foes. Seriously.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hunterc311 10-19-07, 12:54 AM	Regarding powers like energy burst, does the power affect a creature that is on the manifester's person? IE a tiny creature attached to a manifester's leg or stuffed in their backpack. I ask this because a psicrystal is a creature that is on the psion's person but does not get hit when a psion manifests a burst power centered on them. Is it any different if a different creature is similarly "on" the psion's person? And if so, why would it be?
strenoth 10-19-07, 01:03 AM	Any other creature would be considered grappling, as the psion does not want it on him, so after you made the relevant concentration checks, I woudl think you would hit any tiny sized creature on you. Consider it a decision made upon manifesting/casting, just how close to yrou skin does it get?
InkBlot 10-19-07, 02:40 AM	Regarding powers like energy burst, does the power affect a creature that is on the manifester's person? Yes. Even if that creature is the psion's psicrystal. HOWEVER, a creature in the psion's backpack would have total cover against the energy burst. The backpack provides cover and concealment to things inside it. Since the backpack is an object attended by the psion, it doesn't get damaged by the burst, and the creature inside isn't at risk of losing it's cover. If the psion were desperate, then he might drop the backpack (free action) before manifesting the burst, in order to destroy it and uncover the creature.
cyberpunk 10-19-07, 07:29 AM	what if the psicrystal is worn as the center stone of a necklace?
Bacris 10-19-07, 10:01 AM	what if the psicrystal is worn as the center stone of a necklace? Then it's an attended object and is unaffected.
AntiDjinn 10-19-07, 10:18 AM	Any "centered on you" effect (be it burst, emanation, or spread) hits every qualifying target in the area except you. Making a hole wide enough to exempt anything else takes a feat. Consider how upset you would be if you were being attacked by stirges or giant ticks and the DM ruled that because they are tiny and in your space they are immune to area blasts centered on you. If your psicrystal is on your person then it is an attended item and only required to make a saving throw if you roll a natch 1 on yours; that will not happen since you are not required to roll a save. If your psicrystal is not on your person, not granted full cover, and in the area, then you could potentially blast it; this is just an issue where you should be paying attention and aware of the positions of friendly targets. It does have evasion, so it is likely to take no damage. If the pet rock is in the area along with multiple foes, you could just use Ultrablast which will ignore the rock because it is 1) not an enemy and 2) immune.
InkBlot 10-19-07, 05:47 PM	Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object. It can't be an attended object since it isn't an object. Where are you getting the idea that the psicrystal is somehow an exception to all the normal rules? Is there some clause somewhere that I missed? If you don't want your psicrystal caught in the blast, then tell it to hop in your backpack (or some other kind of cover).
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 07:30 PM	Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object. It can't be an attended object since it isn't an object. Where are you getting the idea that the psicrystal is somehow an exception to all the normal rules? Is there some clause somewhere that I missed? If you don't want your psicrystal caught in the blast, then tell it to hop in your backpack (or some other kind of cover). What about an intelligent weapon? Is it a creature, too? It has Wisdom and Charisma scores.
Millenia 10-19-07, 09:29 PM	Even if the psicrystal is caught in the blast, as AntiDjinn said, it has numerous ways to reduce the damage to barely a scratch: Improved Evasion (halves or totally negates damage), Power Resistance (25% chance of negation), Hardness 8 (regular damage from sonic/acid, half from electricity and fire and subtracted by 8, one-quarter damage from cold and subtracted by 8). So, even if you threw out a powerful.... power (rimshot), most of the damage will be reduced by at least half, to plainly being negated.... Not to mention that you can voluntarily elect to fail your "beat power resistance" ML check... right?
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 10:08 PM	Hardness 8 (regular damage from sonic/acid, half from electricity and fire and subtracted by 8, one-quarter damage from cold and subtracted by 8) Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8.
Bacris 10-19-07, 10:14 PM	Even if the psicrystal is hanging around your neck, or sitting on your shoulder, it's still a creature and not an object. Good point - although if it's part of a necklace or other such device, it could be argued it has cover :)
Millenia 10-19-07, 10:35 PM	Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8. Oh. Meh. Damn technicalities. Oh, and I forgot to mention that shared powers can help the Psicrystal survive the damage - such as the Energy Adaption line of powers, Power Resistance....
Sagetim 10-19-07, 11:58 PM	Half fire and electric damage and quarter cold damage don't have anything to do with Hardness. It's a property of objects, which psicrystals aren't. The psicrystal is a creature, so it takes full fire, electric, and cold damage, although Hardness still reduces that damage by 8. which is why it would be awesome to have a psionic version of hardness. (yes, I realize that matter manipulation can raise and lower, I'm talking raise only, and without that xp cost). Or having a buddy who's a mage...or an artificier....mmmm, raise hardness of target object by 1/2 caster level....mmmm. That's 5 points at level 11. Ten at 20, more the higher ya go. also, if you were to use, say, share powers and energy conversion...would you get a beam attack of the damage it absorbed from your burst?
CrimsonDeath 10-20-07, 01:10 AM	also, if you were to use, say, share powers and energy conversion...would you get a beam attack of the damage it absorbed from your burst? That's actually a pretty fun tactic. (Or, at least, I'm told it is.) Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Extend Power, then learn the powers Energy Conversion, Energy Wall, and Schism. Now, just before you head into the dungeon, manifest an Extended Energy Conversion, then manifest Energy Wall and spend a few minutes soaking up damage. When you actually run into some enemies, manifest Schism and you have three rays per round (one for you, one for the Schism, and one for the crystal).
Sagetim 10-20-07, 03:47 AM	That's actually a pretty fun tactic. (Or, at least, I'm told it is.) Take the feats Psicrystal Affinity and Extend Power, then learn the powers Energy Conversion, Energy Wall, and Schism. Now, just before you head into the dungeon, manifest an Extended Energy Conversion, then manifest Energy Wall and spend a few minutes soaking up damage. When you actually run into some enemies, manifest Schism and you have three rays per round (one for you, one for the Schism, and one for the crystal). can the crystal even fire a ray? o.O
CrimsonDeath 10-20-07, 11:08 AM	can the crystal even fire a ray? o.O If you share Energy Conversion with it and it takes energy damage, then it can. It's a creature, which means it can take actions, and Energy Conversion gives it something it can do with those actions. And even if your DM doesn't believe that it has a Construct's BAB, it still stands a pretty good chance of hitting-- +2 Dex and +2 Size vs. Touch AC. Note that you can't share Schism with it-- It's immune.
Lycanthromancer 10-20-07, 01:46 PM	Except if you share metamorphosis with it. That, and the Split Psionic Ray feat would net you 8 rays per round. that's 24 x ML in damage if you hit with all of them. Taking Improved Critical: Ray and Greater Psionic Shot would ramp the damage up considerably, too. This is assuming, of course, that you don't have feats for your psicrystal. If you gave your little crystalline buddy feats specifically to increase the damage and accuracy on ranged attacks, you could deal some serious hurtage to your foes. Seriously.