Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Exner 03-16-07, 12:54 AM	1st question: when using telekinetic manuever for grapple, is there a size modifier involved? if so, what size do you use, the manifesters? if so, would enlarging yourself, enlarge your size for telekinetic manuever grapples? 2nd question: what is the purpose of a kineticist getting disable device if you are a pure psion? is it even worth taking? the only think i can think of is that a kineticist has an inate ability to take things apart...but the partical use of this skill without search/trapfinding is next to useless,,,or am i missing something?
cymbolik 03-16-07, 07:41 AM	1.Telekinetic Maneuver Psychokinesis [Force] Level: Psion/wilder 4 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: One creature Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 7 You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts. So, a change in your size would alter your bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm check accordingly, as would any feats that you've taken to improve your ability to bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm, but at the end of the day what it really means is that you can bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm at range without provoking attacks of opportunity or reactive attacks from the target. 2. It's fairly pointless for high-end traps with a 20+ DC, unless you've taken the find traps, psionic power located in the Mind's Eye articles of the past or you've multiclassed rogue or another class that grants trap finding as an ability.
JayceMD 03-16-07, 10:27 AM	1. So, a change in your size would alter your bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm check accordingly, as would any feats that you've taken to improve your ability to bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm, but at the end of the day what it really means is that you can bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm at range without provoking attacks of opportunity or reactive attacks from the target. I'm not entirely sure I agree with the size modifiers. A halfling psion shouldn't be at a penalty to psychokinetic grapple checks, just like a giant shouldn't get a bonus just because his body is bigger. It's completely mental (no pun intended). If I were the DM, I would rule that psychokinetic maneuver does not get any size penalties or bonuses; essentially, the grappling force is treated as a Medium creature. Now, I would allow a player to develop augments and negative augments to the power that grant size modifiers. The negative augment would represent the manifester not putting as much mental energy towards the psychokinetic entity (it's treated as smaller), while the positive augments would represent the manifester putting more mental energy into it (treat it as larger).
cymbolik 03-16-07, 11:23 AM	I'm not entirely sure I agree with the size modifiers. A halfling psion shouldn't be at a penalty to psychokinetic grapple checks, just like a giant shouldn't get a bonus just because his body is bigger. It's completely mental (no pun intended). If I were the DM, I would rule that psychokinetic maneuver does not get any size penalties or bonuses; essentially, the grappling force is treated as a Medium creature. Think of it in terms of you still have to brace the opposing force against something in order to produce the desired effect, using your own body as a counterweight to the kinetic force you're exerting. Remember that whatever you exert force against also exerts force back against you. If you've read the Belgariad by David Eddings you'll recall one scene in the Vale where Garion experiments with the Will and the Way by moving an extremely large boulder as he had heard his grandfather had done. Instead of just pushing at the tip of the boulder with a small application of his Will and forcing it to roll over he lifts the boulder and turns it on its side in the air. Unfortunately the weight of the boulder still weighed down on him physically, driving his body into the ground and trapping him there for some time, since he had forgotten that while he was lifting the boulder, the boulder was pushing back against him, pushing him against the soft earth he was standing on. Had he also been applying an equal amount of kinetic pressure against the earth as was being exerted on him by the boulder he would have remained where he was. Additionally, by substituting your Int modifier for your Str/Dex modifier is how the power makes an allowance for mental strength over brute strength.
Exner 03-16-07, 01:17 PM	I actually think this ranged grapple is pretty neat and has a lot of potential. from the wording it seems that you would use size mods even though it does not make sense. this brings up another question about the telekinetic disarm. is it based on what you are holding (like a staff). would feats like improved grapple modify a telekinetic grapple? would feats like earth's embrace work?
cymbolik 03-16-07, 01:37 PM	It does make sense. Think about it. Just because you're using your mind doesn't mean that it's an easier exercise. Imagine lifting up a pebble with your hand. Now imagine lifting a bowling ball with your dominant hand. You can still do both, but you have to use more force from your arms and hands to lift the bowling ball than you did to lift the pebble and you have to exert less force with your dominant hand/arm since the muscles in that hand/arm are stronger and better developed. Now imagine that the kinetic force supplied by this power is the same as your hand and that your mind is stronger and better developed. As I said above, any feats and powers (yes, grip of iron would work) and whatever else you have that affects your ordinary physical bull rush/grapple/disarm/trip will also affect this power.
Exner 03-16-07, 04:02 PM	It does make sense. Think about it. Just because you're using your mind doesn't mean that it's an easier exercise. Imagine lifting up a pebble with your hand. Now imagine lifting a bowling ball with your dominant hand. You can still do both, but you have to use more force from your arms and hands to lift the bowling ball than you did to lift the pebble and you have to exert less force with your dominant hand/arm since the muscles in that hand/arm are stronger and better developed. Now imagine that the kinetic force supplied by this power is the same as your hand and that your mind is stronger and better developed. As I said above, any feats and powers (yes, grip of iron would work) and whatever else you have that affects your ordinary physical bull rush/grapple/disarm/trip will also affect this power. i guess it could make sense if you you see if from a certain point of view (ala, the belgarion stuff). but if you look at it from the star wars perspective, size matters not, as yoda would say. i guess it is perspective since dnd does not elaborate. would you explain the telekinetic disarm the same way?
cymbolik 03-16-07, 05:30 PM	Absolutely. See, the Belgarion stuff was really just an example of physics applied in a fantasy setting. Now, I'm no pysicist, so what I'm explaining here is extremely simplified and drawn from high school physics of a good 9 years ago. You have to overcome the force that the holding creature is exerting on the item in its grip. This requires prying its fingers/claws apart, essentially using your mental strength against its physical strength, hence the substitution of your Int mod against its Str mod. Imagine yourself trying to pry something from another person's hands. They're not just going to stand still while you calmly loosen their grip finger by finger. Instead they're going to counter your actions by moving bodily and using their own mass as leverage to pry their hand from your grip, representing a greater expenditure of force from you while you try to also maintain your balance and use your own body as a counter balance of force to negate their struggling. D&D does make reference to the fact that even though combat is represented in rounds it is certainly not a static representation of time. There is ducking, weaving and reactive actions in the form of attacks of opportunity or, in this case, opposing bull rush/grapple/trip/disarm checks. What this power does is negate their ability to affect you directly with counter attacks since you are essentially doing at range what you would have had to close into melee range to do. This would be another Yoda-ism, in its way. Size matters not, only use of Force. That said it's not really accurate to compare the two systems, since psionics is a mental action, whereas use of the Force is an exploitation of the energy that binds all of creation, making it more like magic than psionics. If you're familiar with both systems, the use of Force is broken down into use of skills, representing training you have undergone to improve your ability to affect the Force in specific ways.