Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kri69 08-23-07, 02:28 PM	Can anyone use a spell or power like gate to travel to the demiplane that a shaper created?
InkBlot 08-23-07, 03:04 PM	Yes, but they have to know about he demiplane first. So don't tell anybody where your demiplane is if you don't want them to go there.
Racinante 08-23-07, 04:58 PM	It also depends on what campaign setting you are using, which determines the relationship between the prime material and astral planes. The demiplane you create with genesis is coterminous with the astral, which means you have to be at a specific place on the astral plane to planeshift to your plane. Your demiplane is separate from all other planes, so planeshift from any plane except the astral will not take you to your demiplane. To get to your plane from any specific point on any specific (non-astral) plane, you need to do one of the following two processes. Planeshift to the astral, teleport or travel to the coterminous location, then planeshift to your plane. Build a portal from where you are to where you want to go. A Gate spell acts like a planeshift, but with exact results, and creates a passage as opposed to depositing you on the plane. Based on that, you cannot gate to your plane from anywhere, only at the location on the astral plane where the two are coterminous. Your mileage with your DM may vary, of course. Hope this helps.
munin 08-24-07, 10:34 AM	...Your demiplane is separate from all other planes, so planeshift from any plane except the astral will not take you to your demiplane... Neither plane shift nor gate require that the destination plane be coterminous or coexistent with the originating plane. You (and anybody else who knows about it) can plane shift to the demiplane from anywhere (well, definitely anywhere from the Material Plane, and I assert that you can from anywhere else). Plane Shift...From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination. Gate...Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire... The 5 to 500 miles thing might be an issue when the diameter of the destination plane is probably measured in hundreds of feet. What happens is not defined and is up to your DM. Since the genesis power specifically says that you can travel to the created plane by plane shift, it should be allowed (without dumping you into the astral plane or some other spatially illogical result -- there are no points in the astral plane which are 5 to 500 miles from an intended destination in the demiplane). I would make the arrival point random (or plot-serving).
Racinante 08-24-07, 11:49 AM	Neither plane shift nor gate require that the destination plane be coterminous or coexistent with the originating plane. You (and anybody else who knows about it) can plane shift to the demiplane from anywhere (well, definitely anywhere from the Material Plane, and I assert that you can from anywhere else). None of the planar travel spells/powers or teleportation spells/powers mention coterminous or coexistance of planes. However all of these spells, in the standard cosmology, touch the astral plane. Planes that are separate from the astral generally state that planar and teleportation effects do not function. Planes that are coterminous state that planar travel and teleporation effects only work in locations on that plane that are coterminous with the astral. Reference the Manual of the Planes for specific examples. The 5 to 500 miles thing might be an issue when the diameter of the destination plane is probably measured in hundreds of feet. What happens is not defined and is up to your DM. Since the genesis power specifically says that you can travel to the created plane by plane shift, it should be allowed (without dumping you into the astral plane or some other spatially illogical result -- there are no points in the astral plane which are 5 to 500 miles from an intended destination in the demiplane). I would make the arrival point random (or plot-serving). Actually, using the Genesis power to create a demiplane requires you to be physically on the Astral plane and from there you can plane shift to that plane. How Planes Interact Separate Planes: Two planes that are separate do not overlap or directly connect to each other. They are like planets in different orbits. The only way to get from one separate plane to the other is to go through a third plane. Coterminous Planes: Planes that touch at specific points are coterminous. Where they touch, a connection exists, and travelers can leave one reality behind and enter the other. Coexistent Planes: If a link between two planes can be created at any point, the two planes are coexistent. These planes overlap each other completely. A coexistent plane can be reached from anywhere on the plane it overlaps. When moving on a coexistent plane, it is often possible to see into or interact with the plane it coexists with. Layered Planes Infinities may be broken into smaller infinities, and planes into smaller, related planes. These layers are effectively separate planes of existence, and each layer can have its own planar traits. Layers are connected to each other through a variety of planar gates, natural vortices, paths, and shifting borders. Access to a layered plane from elsewhere usually happens on a specific layer: the first layer of the plane, which can be either the top layer or the bottom layer, depending on the specific plane. Most fixed access points (such as portals and natural vortices) reach this layer, which makes it the gateway for other layers of the plane. The plane shift spell also deposits the spellcaster on the first layer of the plane. So basically you cannot gate or plane shift to the 50th level of the abyss from the material plane because it does not connect with the astral. If you try, you will end up on the first layer as that is the layer that is coterminous with the astral. I stand by my original response.
Tempest Stormwind 08-24-07, 12:02 PM	None of the planar travel spells/powers or teleportation spells/powers mention coterminous or coexistance of planes. However all of these spells, in the standard cosmology, touch the astral plane. Planes that are separate from the astral generally state that planar and teleportation effects do not function. Planes that are coterminous state that planar travel and teleporation effects only work in locations on that plane that are coterminous with the astral. Reference the Manual of the Planes for specific examples. That's because [Teleportation] effects take you through the Astral Plane, and if a plane isn't touching the astral you can't teleport, any more than you could Shadow Walk without the shadow plane or take an Ethereal Jaunt without the ethereal plane. However... Plane Shift isn't [teleportation]. Neither is Gate. Thus, the rule on teleportation doesn't apply. Now, go back to the Manual of the Planes and check the guidelines for going between planes. While it does say that teleportation effects don't function on planes that don't touch the astral plane... it doesn't say *anything* about planar travel, and thus you can use it regardless of the Astral Plane's presence. Furthermore, this is all moot in the case of genesis, since that plane *is* coterminous with the astral. So basically you cannot gate or plane shift to the 50th level of the abyss from the material plane because it does not connect with the astral. If you try, you will end up on the first layer as that is the layer that is coterminous with the astral. Ahem. It gives no reason, whatsoever, for why Plane Shift puts you on the first layer of the plane. You can generalize nothing from there. Furthermore, it says nothing about Gate. If I'm trying to Gate in an outsider that only lives on the 6th level of a plane, NOTHING in the rules ever suggests it can't be done, and in fact everything in the rules suggests that it CAN be done. Conclusion: Gate doesn't bother with the layer distinction. This isn't AD&D. The rules here are clear -- Plane Shift can work from any plane to any other plane, so long as it deposits you on the first layer, and Gate does similar except it ignores the layers. It doesn't require the astral plane, nor does it require any form of coterminous connection. It functions at any point on the plane at any time, barring odd planar phenomena that are explicitly undefined in the rules. Final conclusion: Your original claim was wrong.
munin 08-24-07, 01:22 PM	Racinante, now that you've pointed out the rules for moving from plane to plane, I think your interpretation is a reasonable one. I don't think it's the correct answer, but I think it's a correct answer: the rules for How Planes Interact tell you where you can move from one plane to the other and plane shift provides the means to do it. So, if I understand your interpretation correctly, you can only plane shift if you are at a point which is coexistent or coterminous with your destination plane. But, because of the exception given in the plane shift description, when you originate from the Material Plane, you can go to any plane (at least, its top level). Can you go through a third plane with a single manifestation, say from the Shadow Plane to the Ethereal Plane, since they're both coexistent with the Material Plane at any given point though not with each other, or would that require two plane shifts? I think, by your interpretation, it would take two. Although the astral plane is coexistent with all planes, it's not coexistent with all planes at every point -- to get from one outer plane to another (or even back to the Material Plane), would you have to plane shift to the astral plane, travel for days to reach a point coexistent with the destination plane, and then plane shift in? By your interpretation, I think you would have to. Otherwise, if plane shift can thread from one coexistent space to another, then I would think it could thread from a coexistent space to a coterminous point as well. Even if your interpretation is correct, the Material Plane sentence in plane shift is clear: if you originate from the Material Plane, you can plane shift to any plane. I still think that plane shift was intended to allow you to move from any plane to any plane, and the rules for How Planes Interact are only supposed to apply to things like ethereal jaunt. I don't have other texts in front of me, but I think there are other effects which might become useless with your interpretation, like maybe spells which bring the planar traits of another plane into your plane -- if that could only be done from a coexistent plane, it could pretty much only be done from the astral plane.
Racinante 08-24-07, 01:46 PM	That's because [Teleportation] effects take you through the Astral Plane, and if a plane isn't touching the astral you can't teleport, any more than you could Shadow Walk without the shadow plane or take an Ethereal Jaunt without the ethereal plane. However... Plane Shift isn't [teleportation]. Neither is Gate. Thus, the rule on teleportation doesn't apply. Actually: Plane Shift Conjuration (Teleportation) and Gate Conjuration (Creation or Calling) Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Plane Shift is a teleportation effect, granted Gate is not, although since it references plane shift to describe the planar travel function, it probably should be. Now, go back to the Manual of the Planes and check the guidelines for going between planes. While it does say that teleportation effects don't function on planes that don't touch the astral plane... it doesn't say *anything* about planar travel, and thus you can use it regardless of the Astral Plane's presence. Actually it does discuss planar travel but not with a specific method of travel. See my previous post on separate, coterminous and coexistent planes. Furthermore, this is all moot in the case of genesis, since that plane *is* coterminous with the astral. If it was coexistent, then the point would be moot, however I will review the Manual of the Planes this weekend to determine if my understanding is in error. It so, then I will retract, reclarify, and apologize. Ahem. It gives no reason, whatsoever, for why Plane Shift puts you on the first layer of the plane. You can generalize nothing from there. Well you can, but it does not make for an iron clad argument. Furthermore, it says nothing about Gate. If I'm trying to Gate in an outsider that only lives on the 6th level of a plane, NOTHING in the rules ever suggests it can't be done, and in fact everything in the rules suggests that it CAN be done. Conclusion: Gate doesn't bother with the layer distinction. Again, I'll have to review my Manual of the Planes.
Racinante 08-24-07, 02:22 PM	Racinante, now that you've pointed out the rules for moving from plane to plane, I think your interpretation is a reasonable one. I don't think it's the correct answer, but I think it's a correct answer: the rules for How Planes Interact tell you where you can move from one plane to the other and plane shift provides the means to do it. Thank you. I agree that different interpretations can be made. So, if I understand your interpretation correctly, you can only plane shift if you are at a point which is coexistent or coterminous with your destination plane. But, because of the exception given in the plane shift description, when you originate from the Material Plane, you can go to any plane (at least, its top level). Close, but not quite. If your origin and destination planes connect to the astral plane at the same point, and you are in the origin plane at that point, then you can plane shift between the two. If not, then you will need to plane shift, travel, then plane shift again, or travel to a point where both the origin and destination are connected to the astral at the same point and use one plane shift there. Most planes are coexistent with the astral, so plane shift takes you directly to your destination plane. Plane shift may actually act more like the planar travel aspect of Gate when transporting to demiplanes that are coterminous with the Astral (assuming you are at the point of coexistence on the origin plane to the astral). Plane shift could not leave you miles from your target since it can only drop you in a coterminous location (unless that coterminous section were miles in diameter). Can you go through a third plane with a single manifestation, say from the Shadow Plane to the Ethereal Plane, since they're both coexistent with the Material Plane at any given point though not with each other, or would that require two plane shifts? I think, by your interpretation, it would take two. The answer is based on whether the Astral is coexistant with both the Shadow and Ethereal Planes. If it is, then one. If not, then two. I could not find the definitive answer in the SRD, but the implication is that neither (and in other sections of the SRD, both) is connected to the astral. Although the astral plane is coexistent with all planes, it's not coexistent with all planes at every point -- to get from one outer plane to another (or even back to the Material Plane), would you have to plane shift to the astral plane, travel for days to reach a point coexistent with the destination plane, and then plane shift in? By your interpretation, I think you would have to. Otherwise, if plane shift can thread from one coexistent space to another, then I would think it could thread from a coexistent space to a coterminous point as well. Actually the astral plane is not necessarily coexistent with every plane. If it has a limited overlap, then it is coterminous. If it were coexistent, then travel from one to any other would be a given with a single plane shift. Coexistence means that travel between any point in plane A is possible to any point in plane B. You basically route through a single point on the Astral to get there. Coterminous means that travel between plane A and B can only occur at specific points. If you are not at one of those points, then you cannot travel between the two. Separate planes means that travel between plane A and B can only occur if both are connected to C and you travel to C first. To go from an inner plane to an outer plane and vice versa, you need to find a point where the inner plane is connected to the astral, plane shift there, then travel (via teleport if necessary) to the point where the outer plane is connected to the astral and plane shift again to get to your destination plane. Even if your interpretation is correct, the Material Plane sentence in plane shift is clear: if you originate from the Material Plane, you can plane shift to any plane. Plane shift was printed in 3e before any information on planes was published for that edition. For simplicities sake and for games that uses only the core rules, yes it works exactly that way. If you introduce the optional planar information into a campaign, then the interaction of the planes will alter any spell that uses those planes and then plane shift will be restricted by those rules. I still think that plane shift was intended to allow you to move from any plane to any plane, and the rules for How Planes Interact are only supposed to apply to things like ethereal jaunt. I don't have other texts in front of me, but I think there are other effects which might become useless with your interpretation, like maybe spells which bring the planar traits of another plane into your plane -- if that could only be done from a coexistent plane, it could pretty much only be done from the astral plane. I agree partially. Yes plane shift was meant to allow you to travel between any two planes. The planar interaction rules were added as optional rules to restrict these abilities and provide a framework for planar adventuring. Ethereal jaunt only works on the material plane unless your DM has added planes or demiplanes that are connected to the ethereal.
munin 08-24-07, 04:39 PM	The answer is based on whether the Astral is coexistant with both the Shadow and Ethereal Planes...I could not find the definitive answer in the SRD... It's not in the SRD because it's cosmology dependent. In the D&D Cosmology the astral plane is coexistent with all planes, including ethereal and shadow [DMG150] (though genesis specifies an exception to this, of course). It then goes on to say that the Astral Plane envelops the whole cosmology like a cloud, which sounds to me like coterminous connections, but whatever. I think that image had led me to believe that it was possible for plane A to be coexistent with plane B (any point in A could connect to plane B), but for plane B to be only coterminous with plane A (only a subregion of B connects to A). But you're right -- the definition clearly requires coexistence to be both ways. If that's the case, I'm not sure why astral caravan talks about reaching your destination plane. As soon as you're on the astral plane, you're immediately coexistent with the destination plane. Despite all the wording, it must be talking about reaching a point coexistent with your spatial destination on the destination plane. astral projection doesn't require travel time.
Racinante 08-24-07, 05:01 PM	If that's the case, I'm not sure why astral caravan talks about reaching your destination plane. As soon as you're on the astral plane, you're immediately coexistent with the destination plane. Despite all the wording, it must be talking about reaching a point coexistent with your spatial destination on the destination plane. astral projection doesn't require travel time. Astral projection Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter. Seems time is implied but not stated. Regardless, most of the astral spells and powers seem to be ports or adaptations from previous editions where you had to find color pools on the Astral plane to your destination plane, which would allow you to enter that plane without manifesting plane shift or some other planar traveling spell/power. Finding the correct pool was sometimes more an art than a science and could take significant amounts of time. The wordings of all of the astral powers / spells seem to imply coterminous with all of the other planes (although to most of them it would appear to be a coexistent subset, like your description above).
DracoPhoenix 08-25-07, 06:15 AM	Don't think this has popped up, apologies if it has: Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately. Well, plane shift definitely works, as gate is a similar mechanism - i.e. interplanar transport, I would be inclined to say a gate would work. It does not explicitly mention where you must planeshift from, so I don't think "From the Astral Plane" could be inferred. However: 1) As mentioned, you must know where it is. (or the minimum needed for gate to locate the demi-plane) 2) The plane must not be in someway warded against uauthorised intrusion. I believe the Divine variant allows the creator to set locks on it so only certain people can access it and that there are powers, spells etc that could also prevent detection or access. The power says it works best on the Astral, not only. While it is clear on what happens on the material plane, what happens when manifested on any other plane? Would it take on the minor plane traits for the plane it was manifested on?
Racinante 08-25-07, 01:26 PM	Furthermore, this is all moot in the case of genesis, since that plane *is* coterminous with the astral. If it was coexistent, then the point would be moot, however I will review the Manual of the Planes this weekend to determine if my understanding is in error. It so, then I will retract, reclarify, and apologize. Because they are so small, demiplanes have several access restrictions. First, they can only be accessed from a specific spot on the larger plane. [the coterminous plane mentioned in the previous paragraph - the Astral plane in the case for the power genesis]..... Second, characters cannot use plane shift or similar spells to travel to or from a demiplane, except at the specific locations where the demiplane is close to its coterminous plane. as for astral projection Access: Most demiplanes have only one access portal, or they have a weak spot where spells such as astral projection function. I stand by my original statements.
Racinante 08-25-07, 01:41 PM	Don't think this has popped up, apologies if it has: Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately. Well, plane shift definitely works, as gate is a similar mechanism - i.e. interplanar transport, I would be inclined to say a gate would work. It does not explicitly mention where you must planeshift from, so I don't think "From the Astral Plane" could be inferred. However: 1) As mentioned, you must know where it is. (or the minimum needed for gate to locate the demi-plane) 2) The plane must not be in someway warded against uauthorised intrusion. I believe the Divine variant allows the creator to set locks on it so only certain people can access it and that there are powers, spells etc that could also prevent detection or access. In the absence of an established cosmology of the planes, no problem. In the standard D&D cosmology, only from the point of creation on the Astral. Astral caravan would work regardless, however. The power says it works best on the Astral, not only. While it is clear on what happens on the material plane, what happens when manifested on any other plane? Would it take on the minor plane traits for the plane it was manifested on? The divine and arcane versions work only on the ethereal. So potentially the power could be cast on any transitive plane with similar results. However, based on the position of the statement in the power description, I would say that it works best on the Astral, but can be used on the material plane to create the anti-genesis effect, and no other planes. Genesis Conjuration (Creation) Level: Creation 9 Effect: A demiplane on the Ethereal Plane centered on your location Genesis Conjuration (Creation) Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9, Creation 9 Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location