Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ecalsneerg 02-23-08, 04:07 PM	I'm aware that, when using Shed body, a Psion Uncarnate doesn't get his charisma as a deflection bonus. But, when he becomes permanently incorporeal, does he then get it? Thanks in advance.
Zappy 02-23-08, 07:40 PM	I believe so. At the point when you get there you gain the Incorporeal subtype. Although someone else may need to correct me.
Tedronai 02-24-08, 03:09 AM	Uncarnate (Ex): At 10th level, a psion uncarnate becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness. This ability is similar to shed body, except the character is permanently incorporeal (and gains that subtype). It would appear that a Psion Uncarnate does not gain the deflection bonus, even at 10th level. He can, however wear armour via his Assume Equipment and Uncarnate Armour abilities, and can still, of course, wear a simple Ring of Protection.
InkBlot 02-24-08, 04:32 AM	All creatures with the incorporeal subtype have a deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma. It's part of the incorporeal subtype. So the Psion Uncarnate does as well. Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). ...
Zappy 02-24-08, 07:12 AM	Uh Oh. I just realized something. That means that an uncarnate would not get the normal 10 that everyone else starts with. In stead he'd get: DEX bonus, CHA bonus, Armor bonus, any other magic bonuses. Oh well I don' know that's a big deal after all the incorporeal bonuses are added in.
InkBlot 02-24-08, 11:57 AM	What makes you think that the uncarnate's AC wouldn't be 10 + modifiers?
Zappy 02-24-08, 01:16 PM	Isn't the 10 the natural bonus for everything? Or am I miss understanding natural bonus in this case.
Tedronai 02-24-08, 01:24 PM	All creatures with the incorporeal subtype have a deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma. It's part of the incorporeal subtype. So the Psion Uncarnate does as well. Except that the Psion Uncarnate specifically states that it does NOT... Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no physical body. He can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. He is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, he has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no natural armor bonus - and, unlike other incorporeal creatures, does not gain a deflection bonus from his Charisma modifier. bolding, of course, mine
Zappy 02-24-08, 02:44 PM	Except that the Psion Uncarnate specifically states that it does NOT... But that's only until level ten when they become Uncarnate and actually gain the subtype. At which point I suggest someone contact customer service since we seem to be talking in very valid logical circles. EDIT 2/24 15:36 eastern US time: Email sent now we wait.
Lycanthromancer 02-24-08, 02:53 PM	I'm sure contacting CustServ will clear up all our problems. Especially once we get three different answers to the same question.
CrimsonDeath 02-24-08, 04:25 PM	Isn't the 10 the natural bonus for everything? Or am I miss understanding natural bonus in this case. The starting 10 isn't a "bonus" of any kind, nor have I ever seen it described as "natural". It's just the base AC to which bonuses and penalties are applied.
InkBlot 02-24-08, 04:59 PM	Isn't the 10 the natural bonus for everything? Or am I miss understanding natural bonus in this case. No, that's not what that is. The "natural armor bonus" is the bonus that some creatures have due to possessing a thick hide, hard scales, thick course fur, stony skin, et cetera. Incorporeal creatures lose their natural armor bonus because their skin isn't any harder than thin air. The starting ten points of AC isn't any kind of bonus. It isn't named. It's just there. I guess you could call it "base armor class."
Zappy 02-24-08, 09:07 PM	Good for a second there I got really scared.
Slagger the Chuul 02-24-08, 09:14 PM	The 10 base AC is the average result of a d20 roll (10.5) flattened to a round number. I can't remember whether or not it is in 3.5, but there's actually a variant where you roll a d20 for your AC instead. In the interest of making the game run faster, they just decided not to have two random rolls worked out at the same time, so we have a flat 10.
Zappy 02-25-08, 02:06 AM	Well I got the answer from customer service: As the Uncarnate class bonus states, you unlike Shed Body, you actually become Incorporeal and permanently gains that subtype, this will include all the benefits and penalties. So from levels 3 to 9 while using shed body you get no CHA deflection bonus. At level 10 when you go full uncarnate you do.
Lycanthromancer 02-25-08, 09:38 AM	At least we got a pretty good answer (spelling and grammar notwithstanding).
Tedronai 02-25-08, 11:06 AM	Well I got the answer from customer service: So from levels 3 to 9 while using shed body you get no CHA deflection bonus. At level 10 when you go full uncarnate you do. Can we get a quote of the question that was asked? From what I've seen that can significanly impact the answer.
Zappy 02-25-08, 04:10 PM	I'm at work right now but when I get home I'll post it. I saved the email.
Zappy 02-26-08, 01:33 AM	Ok here it is. I sent this: I have a question regarding the Psion Uncarnate Prestige Class. At level 10 it says that they become permanently incorporeal and gain the subtype. At this point do they gain a deflection bonus from their Charisma bonus as all incorporeals do or is it still like the shed body class skill. And got this back: As the Uncarnate class bonus states, you unlike Shed Body, you actually become Incorporeal and permanently gains that subtype, this will include all the benefits and penalties.
Tedronai 02-26-08, 02:03 AM	Shed Body (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or “uncarnate”) once per day as a standard action. The character can remain uncarnate for up to 1 minute. During this time, the character’s body fades into an immaterial form that retains the character’s basic likeness. While uncarnate, the character gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). bolding mine, of course So, the ONLY difference actually pointed out in the 'similar...except...' section of Uncarnate is the duration, and the question is biased and leading towards an answer suggesting that they would gain Cha as Deflection.
Zappy 02-26-08, 07:34 PM	I don't quite understand your statement, but it sounds like your saying I biased my question in some way, but I'm not sure. I think the whole problem is that the word similar is being used too many times. To nail it down I will repost some things from the SRD with as little editing as possible At second level you get the shed body ability: Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or "uncarnate") once per day as a standard action. While uncarnate, the character gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). The bold is mine it later prints the text from the incorporeal subtype. The text is the same as that but puts a quaifier at the end: An incorporeal psion uncarnate has no natural armor bonus—and, unlike other incorporeal creatures, does not gain a deflection bonus from his Charisma modifier. Now at tenth level they become incorporeal and here is the text: Uncarnate (Ex): At 10th level, a psion uncarnate becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness. This ability is similar to shed body, except the character is permanently incorporeal (and gains that subtype). If the character desires, he can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute, but he spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world. Now it says that it is like the shed body ability but it is permanent. It also says that they gain the subtype. If you look at the original text for the incorporal in either the MM or the SRD it says: Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. That means at level 10 Uncarnate's get a deflection bonus as everything with the subtype does. If you want them not to get it in your campaign go ahead. If you want to ask a more "unbiased" question help me out here and let me know. I don't mean to sound confronational it's just I can't understand what you mean.
Tedronai 02-27-08, 12:05 AM	Your question pointed out a difference between the abilities, that does not actually exist, as justification for why the answer would be what you want. Shed Body grants the Incorporeal subtype, but changes the subtype on one point. Uncarnate is 'like Shed Body'. Thus, Uncarnate stating that you gain the Incorporeal subtype is not 'unlike Shed Body' as your question postulated. So, yes, your question was biased by false information.
Zappy 02-27-08, 06:25 PM	Well then you can ask your own "unbiased" question to customer service, and get the answer you want. Or we could just handle it the way we want in our respective games.
Zappy 03-04-08, 12:26 AM	Tedroni any word from Customer Service?