Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 10-08-07, 11:14 AM	Yes yet another quick question. I was reading on the 4e boards and I was reading a thread entitled “ please don’t put psionics in 4e core” or something like that. I put in my two cents on letting Psionics in. I came across another post, which caught my interest, however I have forgotten the name of the poster. He posed an interesting question. Can psionics do anything that arcane/devine magic can’t? Are there things that a psionics wielding character can do better? I know that this is a dead horse that has probably been kicked to death. I am just curious to see what people think.
Vharuck 10-08-07, 11:33 AM	Yes yet another quick question. I was reading on the 4e boards and I was reading a thread entitled “ please don’t put psionics in 4e core” or something like that. I put in my two cents on letting Psionics in. I came across another post, which caught my interest, however I have forgotten the name of the poster. He posed an interesting question. Can psionics do anything that arcane/devine magic can’t? There's augmentation, which is an amazing thing both mechanically and flavorfully. However, I'm thinking the poster's question was aimed more at what the individual powers do. Before I look at the powers list to pick out psionic powers that do things arcane/divine magic can't (at least not well enough to even warrant comparison), let me guess an answer: No. Why? Because psionics is optional. Arcane magic isn't; it's core. What does this mean? It means that there's a good chance that if an idea for an ability, it was made into a spell. Spells get all the attention, so I doubt that any idea was not made into a spell because "it has more of a psionic power feel." In all, I'd say the only psionic powers without a similar magical analogue are psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), mind seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm), and a few Psychic Warrior powers (mostly because spells are limited to non-melee classes). Are there things that a psionics wielding character can do better? Oh yeah. Blasting is better with psionics. Astral constructs are better in combat that summon monster spells (however, summon monster kicks butt for its non-combat utility).
Bacris 10-08-07, 11:48 AM	Yes, there are things psionics can do that divine / arcane can't. But they're few and far between and divine / arcane can come up with similar, if not identical, options.
Tempest Stormwind 10-08-07, 12:02 PM	He posed an interesting question. Can psionics do anything that arcane/devine magic can’t? Are there things that a psionics wielding character can do better? I know that this is a dead horse that has probably been kicked to death. I am just curious to see what people think. Yes. Not many, but they're there. (If you limit the sources the mages can draw from, it's a bit easier.) Currently, the real winners are time control and low-level information gathering / telekinesis. Thematically, mind control, fire (and possibly electricity) control, and body control should probably be on that list as well. Blasting probably shouldn't be, and I'm not sure I agree with time control. However, I think the person you're speaking of is laying a trap. One of two traps, actually. 1) This was a 4e discussion thread. "Is there anything psionics can do that magic can't?" is a 3.5 mechanical question. 4e's mechanics are being designed. There's really no reason to limit what COULD be designed by what HAS been designed. A better question would have been "What SHOULD psionics be able to do that magic shouldn't?" -- But you'll never find a D&D traditionalist ask this, because of course there's nothing that the mighty magic shouldn't be able to do, even in the name of game balance. 2) He's asking a simple question that itself suggests horrible bias. Again, mechanically, there SHOULD be things psionics can do that magic can't. Just as there's things magic can do that psionics can't (manipulate the dead, for instance, and I'm not talking in a speak-with-dead sense, I'm talking in the zombie sense). If this is the trap he's laying, he's skipping over the fact that there is nothing wrong with this -- it makes things mechanically distinct and reinforces the differences between classes. Could you imagine if this logic were applied to the PHB? "Oh noes the cleric can heal better than the wizard nerf it quick!" "My cleric isn't as good with weapons as the fighter something is wrong." "I'm playing a sorcerer but other characters can do things better than me it's not fair." ...Man, what a whiner*. So you see, there's no problem with psionics doing things that magic can't (which it does, mechanically and thematically), just as there's nothing wrong with magic doing things psionics can't. They're just different. In 4e, they should also be of similar power levels, although this isn't the case in 3.5 (hence hoping for it to be fixed). * I actually consider the definition of the word "munchkin" to be "someone with an immature attitude toward the game." Whining that magic can't do everything sure sounds like that, doesn't it?
Scion of Coldshard 10-08-07, 01:29 PM	I think that, in general, all of the forms of magic/psionics should be able to do pretty much everything.. but that different types of each should have things that they are much better at than the others and things that they are much worse at. If you are powerful enough and put enough effort into it then you should be able to get any effects.. but a guy fresh out of school in a different style of magic might be able to pull off that effect already because their form is better suited to it.
Haldrik 10-08-07, 02:01 PM	Scion: All forms of magic/psionics should be able to do everything, but different types should have things that they are better at and things that they are worse at. If you put enough effort into it then you should be able to get any effects .. but a guy fresh out of school in a different style of magic might be able to pull off that effect already because their form is better suited. I agree exactly. Focus but not prohibition.
AntiDjinn 10-08-07, 02:41 PM	Something psionics can do that magic can't? Sure, have a metapsionic feat with an odd point cost. This would be equivalent to having a metamagic with a 1/2, 1&1/2, or 2&1/2 point which is not mechanically possible. With 2 points being equivalent to 1 level, splitting the difference is possible. So if the advantage of a feat is equivalent to a half level you can have it without rounding up or down. Metapsionic feats with odd point costs, if they are accurately priced, could not be converted to metamagic without altering the effect or rounding up or down to result in an overpowered or overpriced feat. Just because the authors have not demonstrated enough grasp of the mechanical implications of their own system to publish such feats does not mean they could not exist given the current rules.
Nephlite 10-08-07, 07:28 PM	Oh yeah. Blasting is better with psionics. Astral constructs are better in combat that summon monster spells (however, summon monster kicks butt for its non-combat utility). Only if Tank/deal damage are only combat usage. Spiders can web (read entangle that is hard to get out/uses up standard action), Centipedes grapple, many have spells, etc. Many of the SM can't beat Astral Constricts in damage except the Voor in MM 4 as a summon monster 3 is pretty awesome so it can for SM 3. They mostly just use abilities to hamper enemy.
Salla 10-08-07, 07:33 PM	I interpret it more that divine and arcane magic does too much. :)
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 07:46 PM	Is there a way, using only arcane and divine magic, to breathe lava? I did some calculations once. Adapt Body lets you breathe regardless of your environment, or removes the need to breathe if there's nothing available to breathe. It also cuts environmental damage dice in half. Throw Energy Adaptation on that, and you're looking at about 10 damage/round, which True Metabolism takes care of.
The Ubbergeek 10-08-07, 08:08 PM	I'd add myself that psionic surely do Body control/Morphing/Alteration and such stuff BETTER than anything Divine or Arcane could ever do. Biofeedback and all. Purely, litteraly-mind powers. I'd say the same exact stuff, because the 'mind is all' matter.
Bacris 10-08-07, 10:51 PM	Polymorph Any Object is far superior to Metamorphosis / Greater Metamorphosis
ElyasRavenwood 10-12-07, 10:58 PM	Gentlemen, thank you for all of your thoughts. Tempest Stormwind I have dug up the post which got me started on this thread. Here it is. I apologize, I do not know how to use the quote feature everyone else is using, so I am cutting and pasting. Hebitsuikaza “I don't like Psionics, but I'll be a bit more specific about why they are bad. They don't actually DO anything unique. Sure, they had a somewhat 'unique' power point pool, but that's just the magic system they way it should have been anyway. Beyond that, Arcane and Divine have pretty clear structures. Arcane is used for offensive damage spells, mind-affecting controling spells and to temprarily adopt aspects of various other classes. Divine is used to protect, support, buff and heal. So Arcane is Control/Damage and Divine is Support/Anti-Damage. Now, there have always been spells in each aspect that stole a bit of the other's aspect, even did so by quite a lot. Also, there was a bit of trouble with the concepts once it was somehow necessary to roll all Nature-based magic into Divine magic. However, the core concept has always remained the same. But Psionics don't actually do anything unique or useful or really necessary. Anything they do simply doubles exactly what the Wizard already does. Yes, in the fluff they are doing it by a different method and on some level I respect that, however it would have been just as good to explain that your Wizards cast magic through their mind in your campaign world just as well as having a duplicate Wizard class just to capture that fluff angle. If you can really explain to me in some reasonable fashion what exactly a Psionic is meant to do in terms of game play beyond simply duplicating what already exists, I might change my mind. But, I've really never seen a good reason for them to exist as a unique class rather than simply being a branch-off of the Wizard (or perhaps Sorcerer).” I have also included my own plug for putting psionics in the “core” part of 4th edition. I was a little disappointed when no one reacted to my two cents. The majority of the posters just continued firing salvos back and forth saying psionics should be in no out of core etc. The reasoned arguments for or against were few and far between. My plug for allowing psionics in 4th edition. Zifnab25 I understand that you do not wish to see psionics in 4e core. I also understand that psionics to you has a sci-fi feel to it in terms of flavor or “crunch”. This is understandable with powers like “Ego whip” and Id insinuation”. However I respectfully disagree with your point of view. I do think that these boards are big enough for us both to have our differing opinions. I think that psionics have just as much a place as magic does weather defined as arcane magic or divine magic in the D%D game. I would like to put forward the Dyreni series by Katherine Kurtz, which Suutar mentioned. In this setting that is very medieval in nature, it has kings which rule by divine right, and the catholic church. The magic described within these books conceptually is just like psionics. Someone else mentioned Yogis. If the “fantasy Europe” world extends and borders a “fantasy India” then why not include psionics? As for the issue of game balance and psionics I suggest that people either believe psionics is unbalanced or it is not. It would be near to impossible to convince people otherwise once they have decided. The question of whether psionics is balanced is one that people can go back and forth on for ever, they can marshal statistical arguments as weather a psion Kenetisists or and evoker has a better damage output and everyone can trot out anecdotal stories of how the psion ran over every other PC's foot with his mac truck full of Psionic Strength Points- (Woops wrong edition, Power Points). I have plenty of personal experience with the psionics system from both sides of the DM screen. I would like to put forward that whether something is “unbalanced” like psionics is entirely in the hands of the player and DM. If the player is a cheesy munchkin power gamer, then he will be able to play judo with the rules and twist it into whatever shape he desires. IF the DM has a firm grasp on the rules as written, and is fair accurate and balanced with his rulings, then things won’t get out of hand. I have watched people “break” the game with wizards, clerics, spiked chains, bluff skills, and yes psionics. This can happen in any gaming system. All 4E will do is clean some things up and provide some people a new set of rules to exploit but I digress. From my experience on both sides of the DM screen I have not found psionics to be either overpowered nor unbalancing. And yes I agree with you about the cleric being unbalanced. I remember in the spring of 2003 I went to the I-Con convention in Stoney Brook New York. I attended a panel hosted by Skip Williams, Monte Cook, and Bill Slavicsek. They were hosting a Q&A session and promoting the release of 3.5 later that year in July. I asked Skip Williams point blank if the cleric was more powerful then any of the other basic classes i.e. fighter rogue and mage. Skip Williams answered yes. He elaborated by saying that the last character role to be filled in a gaming group is usually the cleric, and often the DM ends up NPCing one. He said they were made more powerful and given more goodies to make them more attractive to play. In my opinion, I think players's reluctacne to play clerics is much more a function of their world view rather then anything else. Well, by the time I have finished my rant, my two coppers seem to have become four coppers. Take care.
awaken_D_M_golem 10-13-07, 03:35 PM	well ... Divines with Miracle can do up to 7th level powers. Arcanes with Wish can do up to 6th level powers. Erudites with Spell to Power can do up to 8th level spells, 2 levels late, and have no free leveling up. hmm ... so ... Psionics can do 8th and 9th level powers, differently and maybe better than magic. and Almost all Arcane spells are now "broken", cause you know Psionics is Broken. ;) 4th Edition, here we come !
Sagetim 10-13-07, 04:01 PM	Psionics does do some things that Magic can't. If you look at the prestige classes, you'll find some of those things: A psion can prc to pyrokinetic and throw out bolts of fire all day long. Only the warlock (or a wizard with the reserve feat of fire burst) could come close to the damage he can do on a round by round basis. A psion going into thrallherd could have a vast army, as well as lower cost domination powers. Sure, a wizard can get mindbender, but it doesn't lower the level of any of his domination spells, and he doesn't get a freaking army of mindslaves. A psion going into elocator can 'fly' (scorn earth) limitlessly. Sure, the warlock can do it better, but he's not a wizard. Elocators also get lower cost transport powers, which wizards never get. A wizard might be able to cast teleport 2 or 3 times at level 9. A psion (if they really feel like it) could manifest it 11 times. That's assuming they both have 20 int. A cleric can raise the dead. The psion can revivify, which doesn't have level loss (I don't think). And it's limited to within a few rounds of death. Clerics do beat out psions in healing. The wizard can throw a fireball, however, the psion can use energy ball and switch up their damage on the fly. As well, certain energy types give extra damage per die of damage. The psionic PRC of the Sagehirn gets fast healing and damage reduction. As well as healing. And they can STILL have offensive powers. A wizard could go green star adept to get DR and tanking, but they aren't going to be nearly as useful, since they won't be gaining any casting for those levels...and they need special components to gain the powers of the class. So yes, psionics CAN do some things better than arcane magic. Most of the time it can't really compare much with divine magic (as in, healing vs healing). One fun note: Psionics has a lesser version of regenerate (a sagehirn power to be precise). It allows you to regen small limbs and stuff. Lose a finger in a horrible accident? 9 pp. Get attacked by Lorena bobbit? 9 pp. Get your eyes stolen by the robot mafia? 9pp. Also, a good number of Sagehirns do healing for free. Clerics require donations to their chruch... also forgot to mention: an elan metamind could concievably stop time for as long as he wants. He could then do anything he really puts his mind to during that time. He could even spend thousands of years in that state, then when he comes out of it he'll have age modifiers and most likely some really nice stuff.
turalisj 10-13-07, 05:21 PM	Is there a way, using only arcane and divine magic, to breathe lava? I did some calculations once. Adapt Body lets you breathe regardless of your environment, or removes the need to breathe if there's nothing available to breathe. It also cuts environmental damage dice in half. Throw Energy Adaptation on that, and you're looking at about 10 damage/round, which True Metabolism takes care of. Which is at level 15, and arcane/divine casters have a whole splatbook full of options. Psionics does do some things that Magic can't. If you look at the prestige classes, you'll find some of those things: A psion can prc to pyrokinetic and throw out bolts of fire all day long. Only the warlock (or a wizard with the reserve feat of fire burst) could come close to the damage he can do on a round by round basis. A psion going into thrallherd could have a vast army, as well as lower cost domination powers. Sure, a wizard can get mindbender, but it doesn't lower the level of any of his domination spells, and he doesn't get a freaking army of mindslaves. A psion going into elocator can 'fly' (scorn earth) limitlessly. Sure, the warlock can do it better, but he's not a wizard. Elocators also get lower cost transport powers, which wizards never get. A wizard might be able to cast teleport 2 or 3 times at level 9. A psion (if they really feel like it) could manifest it 11 times. That's assuming they both have 20 int. A cleric can raise the dead. The psion can revivify, which doesn't have level loss (I don't think). And it's limited to within a few rounds of death. Clerics do beat out psions in healing. The wizard can throw a fireball, however, the psion can use energy ball and switch up their damage on the fly. As well, certain energy types give extra damage per die of damage. The psionic PRC of the Sagehirn gets fast healing and damage reduction. As well as healing. And they can STILL have offensive powers. A wizard could go green star adept to get DR and tanking, but they aren't going to be nearly as useful, since they won't be gaining any casting for those levels...and they need special components to gain the powers of the class. So yes, psionics CAN do some things better than arcane magic. Most of the time it can't really compare much with divine magic (as in, healing vs healing). One fun note: Psionics has a lesser version of regenerate (a sagehirn power to be precise). It allows you to regen small limbs and stuff. Lose a finger in a horrible accident? 9 pp. Get attacked by Lorena bobbit? 9 pp. Get your eyes stolen by the robot mafia? 9pp. Also, a good number of Sagehirns do healing for free. Clerics require donations to their chruch... also forgot to mention: an elan metamind could concievably stop time for as long as he wants. He could then do anything he really puts his mind to during that time. He could even spend thousands of years in that state, then when he comes out of it he'll have age modifiers and most likely some really nice stuff. Psions have adaptability, and that's about it. And Sagehirn isn't printed, so most DM's will throw it out.
Jaid 10-13-07, 09:16 PM	ok, hold on a second... if this guy's argument is essentially "psionics is just magic with better mechanics", then shouldn't he be arguing in *favor* of psionics in 4th edition core rulebooks?
Bacris 10-14-07, 07:31 PM	ok, hold on a second... if this guy's argument is essentially "psionics is just magic with better mechanics", then shouldn't he be arguing in *favor* of psionics in 4th edition core rulebooks? But that would be logical, and logic has no place in debates on message boards.
Sagetim 10-15-07, 01:36 AM	But that would be logical, and logic has no place in debates on message boards. aye, haven't you looked at any debates on these boards? :P I'll stand by my previous mention: Psioncs can do something no magic can: it can 'stop time' for a limitless period of time.
Jaid 10-15-07, 05:33 PM	aye, haven't you looked at any debates on these boards? :P I'll stand by my previous mention: Psioncs can do something no magic can: it can 'stop time' for a limitless period of time. i'm sure magic can do that. it's probably a fairly simple variation on the wish and the word, at a guess. (and no, i don't mean using wish to duplicate temporal reiteration either).
DracoPhoenix 10-16-07, 06:09 PM	A cleric can raise the dead. The psion can revivify, which doesn't have level loss (I don't think). And it's limited to within a few rounds of death. Clerics do beat out psions in healing. Check The Spell Compendium. IIRC, it has a Revify spell which is ~the same as Psi Revify :weep: It's funny, clerics are the best at healing, pretty darn good in melee and can pack a large volume of buff spells - not to mention the spontaneous healing, Turn Undead and Domain slots (+1 spell / level more than a wiz). Why do people hate playing these guys again? Oh yeah, that's right, cos most parties (cleric player included) expect you to stay out of the fight & save your spells /:rant: :(
ToastedAmphibian 10-19-07, 10:34 PM	Let a great wyrm grow 2 size categories as a standard action for the cost of 4 class levels and a feat.
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 11:49 PM	Let a great wyrm grow 2 size categories as a standard action for the cost of 4 class levels and a feat. If it's a great wyrm Gem dragon, all it takes is one feat (Expanded Knowledge: Expansion). Combine that with Multisnatch, Snatch and Swallow, and Tail Constrict for Colossal++ fun.