Readying Actions vs. Displayless Psionics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Readying Actions vs. Displayless Psionics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AaonGraywolf
10-06-07, 01:19 PM Quick question. Is there any particular way to justify readying an action to disrupt a psionic character's manifesting, assuming that character is able to pass the "Dispense with Displays" concentration check? By the rules as written, I suppose there's little to disallow it (since manifesting even without displays provokes AoO), but logically, it seems that an archer 30 ft. away would have no perceivable clues to tell him when the Psion is manifesting.

Ergo, a Psion who can reliably pass DC 15ish concentration checks (Manifest Defensively and Dispense with Displays) should NEVER have to worry about having a power disrupted by damage.

Anyway, was just wondering about this. I'm running a fairly low-magic campaign with a psion in the party, and the vast majority of the non-magical NPCs (which is most...thus far, the party has only fought two or three enemy casters in their 5 levels) that come up against him have no discernible way of preventing him from manifesting no matter what they do. With the exception of grapple monkeys, of course, but those get very old and annoying very quickly.
hovnarr
10-06-07, 01:32 PM I'm with you on this one. The AoO system is imperfect to begin with, but really, common sense dictates that you can't take advantage of an opportunity that you can't perceive.

An psion can manifest a power even while in astral seed form. Still, if that seed was threatened while he did so, it would draw an AoO. What's the rationale there?
Saedar
10-06-07, 01:37 PM My stance on this is that he still would provoke AoO, if there was a way to detect he was doing something. There is no rule that says that provoking mandates a response.

As for the initial question, if you can't see your target doing something, then you can't respond. Just like if you ready an action to shoot the first thing that walks around a given corner: if the target is invisible then you can't detect the presence of your criteria.
Tsuul
10-06-07, 02:51 PM What I do is simple. If he's in melee, manifesting does drop his defenses so he still provokes the AoO unless he can combat cast.

If you're readying an action to do *something* when he manifests, but he doesn't show any displays, then you get a psicraft check at penalties to figure out what's going on.

I derived these rules for wizards with still/silent spells, and just carried them over.
Scribbler
10-06-07, 03:38 PM The psion stops moving and seems to focus inwardly for a second or two, then something blows up.
I ready an action to shoot him if he does that again. I don't really need to know that he's manifesting a psionic power to know that I don't want him to do that.
Slagger the Chuul
10-06-07, 06:24 PM As for the initial question, if you can't see your target doing something, then you can't respond. Just like if you ready an action to shoot the first thing that walks around a given corner: if the target is invisible then you can't detect the presence of your criteria.

Which is a good example of how common sense governs readied actions. A readied action actually occurs before the action that triggers it, which would mean you shoot the person while they're still out of sight behind the corner. :)

Luckily, common sense usually prevails.
IceFractal
10-07-07, 05:27 PM The psion stops moving and seems to focus inwardly for a second or two, then something blows up.
Works fine in melee, which I why I would agree it provokes an AoO. However, when the Psion in question isn't in melee combat (readying an action to shoot him, for instance), there's no reason he couldn't continue standing still when not manifesting powers, which would seem to make it indistinguishable when he actually manifests something.
Nirid
10-07-07, 05:41 PM Even if you dispense with displays you still have that moment of focus when you actually manifest. Within 5ft or 30ft, if I see you get that distant look for a moment I'm going to want to hit you. That would be where the AoO comes for melee and it's just as reasonable to say that it's also a reasonable criteria for a readied action.

The displays aren't what people are AoOing off of. It's the actual act of manifesting.
calronmoonflower
10-07-07, 05:48 PM The Expanded Psionics Handbook states that a power with no displays still gives a hint that it happens. Stopping for a second to think and thus dropping your guard is visual no different from manifesting a power without any displays. Would you say that doesn't leave you open to attack?
Ovistavin
10-08-07, 12:21 PM The OP is asking about a psionic character who manifest defensively and hides the displays of the power and what effect that would have on a readied action to attack when the character starts to manifest a power.
Tsuul
10-08-07, 04:09 PM Anyway, was just wondering about this. I'm running a fairly low-magic campaign with a psion in the party, and the vast majority of the non-magical NPCs (which is most...thus far, the party has only fought two or three enemy casters in their 5 levels) that come up against him have no discernible way of preventing him from manifesting no matter what they do.The psion in question has been able to roll 16+ on each of these concentration checks? 15 + power level is the formula. You do not add in the +4 bonus from the combat casting feat to this check.
HamHam
10-08-07, 04:26 PM Works fine in melee, which I why I would agree it provokes an AoO. However, when the Psion in question isn't in melee combat (readying an action to shoot him, for instance), there's no reason he couldn't continue standing still when not manifesting powers, which would seem to make it indistinguishable when he actually manifests something.

Except that the rules assume he is moving around, ducking, weaving, etc, even when his miniature/symbol/location on a grid might not be moving at all.

If he's standing around not moving, that counts as being flat-footed. So:

Yes, he could completely hide his manifestation by appearing to be focused all the time. But this would mean he was flat-footed the whole time.
CrimsonDeath
10-08-07, 05:08 PM Except that the rules assume he is moving around, ducking, weaving, etc, even when his miniature/symbol/location on a grid might not be moving at all.

If he's standing around not moving, that counts as being flat-footed. So:

Yes, he could completely hide his manifestation by appearing to be focused all the time. But this would mean he was flat-footed the whole time.

That, or it'd take a Bluff check. (Maybe both.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AaonGraywolf 10-06-07, 01:19 PM	Quick question. Is there any particular way to justify readying an action to disrupt a psionic character's manifesting, assuming that character is able to pass the "Dispense with Displays" concentration check? By the rules as written, I suppose there's little to disallow it (since manifesting even without displays provokes AoO), but logically, it seems that an archer 30 ft. away would have no perceivable clues to tell him when the Psion is manifesting. Ergo, a Psion who can reliably pass DC 15ish concentration checks (Manifest Defensively and Dispense with Displays) should NEVER have to worry about having a power disrupted by damage. Anyway, was just wondering about this. I'm running a fairly low-magic campaign with a psion in the party, and the vast majority of the non-magical NPCs (which is most...thus far, the party has only fought two or three enemy casters in their 5 levels) that come up against him have no discernible way of preventing him from manifesting no matter what they do. With the exception of grapple monkeys, of course, but those get very old and annoying very quickly.
hovnarr 10-06-07, 01:32 PM	I'm with you on this one. The AoO system is imperfect to begin with, but really, common sense dictates that you can't take advantage of an opportunity that you can't perceive. An psion can manifest a power even while in astral seed form. Still, if that seed was threatened while he did so, it would draw an AoO. What's the rationale there?
Saedar 10-06-07, 01:37 PM	My stance on this is that he still would provoke AoO, if there was a way to detect he was doing something. There is no rule that says that provoking mandates a response. As for the initial question, if you can't see your target doing something, then you can't respond. Just like if you ready an action to shoot the first thing that walks around a given corner: if the target is invisible then you can't detect the presence of your criteria.
Tsuul 10-06-07, 02:51 PM	What I do is simple. If he's in melee, manifesting does drop his defenses so he still provokes the AoO unless he can combat cast. If you're readying an action to do something when he manifests, but he doesn't show any displays, then you get a psicraft check at penalties to figure out what's going on. I derived these rules for wizards with still/silent spells, and just carried them over.
Scribbler 10-06-07, 03:38 PM	The psion stops moving and seems to focus inwardly for a second or two, then something blows up. I ready an action to shoot him if he does that again. I don't really need to know that he's manifesting a psionic power to know that I don't want him to do that.
Slagger the Chuul 10-06-07, 06:24 PM	As for the initial question, if you can't see your target doing something, then you can't respond. Just like if you ready an action to shoot the first thing that walks around a given corner: if the target is invisible then you can't detect the presence of your criteria. Which is a good example of how common sense governs readied actions. A readied action actually occurs before the action that triggers it, which would mean you shoot the person while they're still out of sight behind the corner. :) Luckily, common sense usually prevails.
IceFractal 10-07-07, 05:27 PM	The psion stops moving and seems to focus inwardly for a second or two, then something blows up. Works fine in melee, which I why I would agree it provokes an AoO. However, when the Psion in question isn't in melee combat (readying an action to shoot him, for instance), there's no reason he couldn't continue standing still when not manifesting powers, which would seem to make it indistinguishable when he actually manifests something.
Nirid 10-07-07, 05:41 PM	Even if you dispense with displays you still have that moment of focus when you actually manifest. Within 5ft or 30ft, if I see you get that distant look for a moment I'm going to want to hit you. That would be where the AoO comes for melee and it's just as reasonable to say that it's also a reasonable criteria for a readied action. The displays aren't what people are AoOing off of. It's the actual act of manifesting.
calronmoonflower 10-07-07, 05:48 PM	The Expanded Psionics Handbook states that a power with no displays still gives a hint that it happens. Stopping for a second to think and thus dropping your guard is visual no different from manifesting a power without any displays. Would you say that doesn't leave you open to attack?
Ovistavin 10-08-07, 12:21 PM	The OP is asking about a psionic character who manifest defensively and hides the displays of the power and what effect that would have on a readied action to attack when the character starts to manifest a power.
Tsuul 10-08-07, 04:09 PM	Anyway, was just wondering about this. I'm running a fairly low-magic campaign with a psion in the party, and the vast majority of the non-magical NPCs (which is most...thus far, the party has only fought two or three enemy casters in their 5 levels) that come up against him have no discernible way of preventing him from manifesting no matter what they do.The psion in question has been able to roll 16+ on each of these concentration checks? 15 + power level is the formula. You do not add in the +4 bonus from the combat casting feat to this check.
HamHam 10-08-07, 04:26 PM	Works fine in melee, which I why I would agree it provokes an AoO. However, when the Psion in question isn't in melee combat (readying an action to shoot him, for instance), there's no reason he couldn't continue standing still when not manifesting powers, which would seem to make it indistinguishable when he actually manifests something. Except that the rules assume he is moving around, ducking, weaving, etc, even when his miniature/symbol/location on a grid might not be moving at all. If he's standing around not moving, that counts as being flat-footed. So: Yes, he could completely hide his manifestation by appearing to be focused all the time. But this would mean he was flat-footed the whole time.
CrimsonDeath 10-08-07, 05:08 PM	Except that the rules assume he is moving around, ducking, weaving, etc, even when his miniature/symbol/location on a grid might not be moving at all. If he's standing around not moving, that counts as being flat-footed. So: Yes, he could completely hide his manifestation by appearing to be focused all the time. But this would mean he was flat-footed the whole time. That, or it'd take a Bluff check. (Maybe both.)