Recharged Power Stones [Archive] - Wizards Community

Recharged Power Stones [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Andramadus
06-30-07, 01:31 AM Just like the title, how much would the cost of rechargeable power stones be? Anyone care to take a stab at this? They should be cheaper than once a day items, sinse you use your own power points to power them. For the adventurer who wants to save time, and energy.
Everdreaming
06-30-07, 02:52 AM Just like the title, how much would the cost of rechargeable power stones be? Anyone care to take a stab at this? They should be cheaper than once a day items, sinse you use your own power points to power them. For the adventurer who wants to save time, and energy.

Quick Question. Do you mean 1/day items, or one use items? Big difference.
But as for a pricing scheme, I would price them as regular power stones, with the price doubled(one of these is effectivly an expanded knowledge feat that you can lose).
Andramadus
06-30-07, 02:58 AM Once a day. Double normal cost seems fair....
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 03:30 AM The item should be much more that a normal power stone; the guy who is crafting them for sale will sell fewer if they can be re-used, and so will need to charge more. It should, however, be cheaper than a Cognizance Crystal with the same power point total since a Cog Crystal can be used to throw any power of that cost or lower while the points the item you are proposing can only be used to throw that specific power.

The other thing to take into consideration: powers with an XP cost. It must be paid by the crafter of a power stone if applicable. In the case of a rechargeable stone then reasonably only the initial XP cost is paid by the crafter, and must be paid by the user each time the stone is recharged (e.g., a stone of Greater Metamorphosis would initially come with the 200 XP cost included, adding 1000 gold to the cost of the item. Thereafter, the XP cost would have to be recharged along with the power points to ready the item for re-use). Or perhaps the XP would be charged when the power is used rather than when the item is recharged; the person charging he power points and the one spending the XP would not have to be the same, I suppose, but all costs associated with a power would have to be paid for each use.
Andramadus
06-30-07, 03:38 AM I'm not talking about an item that cost's xp every time you want to use it. Simply there are already once a day costs for items or even 3 times a day cost items, and they don't cost xp. What I am trying to create are items that you must charge with your own points thus making them cheaper than the normal versions. The idea of going back to some crafter every time you want to use an item is complicated. I think paying xp every time you use an item is counter productive.
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 03:50 AM You are talking about an item that costs every time you use it if the power stored costs XP. Read the XPH. There are powers (Greater Metamorphosis, Mind Switch, True Mind Switch, Mind Seed, a few others) that cost XP to manifest. If you have an item with one of these powers then it costs XP. If it can be used to throw the power multiple times then someone has to pay that cost. Just that simple.

Either that, or powers that carry a separate XP cost must simply be verboten for this particular item.

If you are trying to make a re-usable item, then it need to take these specific instances into account (the one-shot power stone has rules already written for handling power that have XP cost as part of the manifesting cost) and figure it out or you are not ready to write up the item.
Andramadus
06-30-07, 03:53 AM Those xp costs are fine and would be paid by the user when stored. But powers that don't cost xp shouldnt take xp in the said item usage or rechargeing.
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 04:06 AM I never said they should. And it can not be assumed that the XP is paid when the power points are stored (although the item could be written that way). It is also possible for the XP cost for a particular power to be paid when the power is used.

Example: Item that can manifest True Mind Switch. It has a power point cost of 17 (it shares the augmentation of Mind Switch, so it could be higher). It has an XP cost of 10,000 (wow, that's expensive).

Option 1: To recharge the item the user must invest 17 power points and 10,000 XP. That hurts. If he goes a year or more without using the item or gives it to someone else or it gets stolen, he will be unhappy.

Option 2: To recharge the item the user must invest 17 power points. He doesn't need to worry about the XP cost until he actually activates the item. This means he keeps his XP until he needs to spend it. It also means someone else could actually use the item and the user, not the recharger is responsible for the XP cost. This is more versatile and should carry a higher market price.

Option 3: Powers that carry an XP cost are excluded from this type of item. This is easiest to price, but harder for characters to comprehend without using metagaming terms.
Andramadus
06-30-07, 04:16 AM Your post makes sense as far as xp. I think number 2 is best just pay the points when you use the power wham you lose the xp.
So the cost for these said stones would be?
Double? + Double xp for creation?
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 04:23 AM The next question to answer: What character resources are required?

The standard one-shot power stone requires only one feat: Imprint Stone. If this rechargeable stone can be made with only this one feat, then all you need to do is increase the base cost (and all other costs derived from that: Market price, crafting XP cost, and time to craft). This is easy, just a matter of determining how much more to charge. Again, the guy who make the item will ask a lot more for a re-usable item. This option will make the item very common, and may make normal power stones rarer.

You could make a new feat (with Imprint Stone as a prereq) or since the item features some elements of a cog crystal, decide that you can only make this item if you have both Imprint Stone and Craft Cog Crystal. This option would jack the price up quite a bit (and make the item fairly rare); the guy who has to learn an extra feat to make an item is going to expect to get paid for his effort. This option works out OK for the users of the item, but is a raw deal for the one who crafts it.
Andramadus
06-30-07, 04:40 AM Here's a list of standard market costs for power stones
1: 25gp
2: 150gp
3: 375gp
4: 700gp
5: 1,125gp
6: 1,650gp
7: 2,275gp
8: 3000gp
9: 3,825gp

I think getting a new feat is just more work. In my opinion Craft Power Stone should be enough.
For example Boot's of Stomp 600gp is a first level power and can be used three times daily. The normal power stones of first level cost's 25gp. making them once daily would raise that price I think to 200gp.
Now to recharge with your own power would lower the cost to maybe 100gp which is X3 normal price. How does that sound?
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 04:41 AM For base cost, you might have to do the math at several power levels.

To start, try: Normal base cost for the power stone in question plus half the base cost of a Cog Crystal with that number of storage points (you are making a dedicated cog crystal). If the crafter needs a feat other than Imprint Stone then boost the cost by 25% (that puts the market price up another 50%, more than reasonable for the added character investment).

If the power imprinted has an XP cost, then the standard rate is 5 gold per XP, the guy who makes the stone pays for the first use of the power. If, instead, the user pays the XP cost, then I would still boost the base cost by 50 gp per power level because it is added versatility and increases the utility of the stone.
Zarreth_Nessad
06-30-07, 11:16 AM Just a couple thoughts of my own on this idea:

Alternative Feat requirements: either a new feat requiring Imprint Stone (like Power Stone Master, along the lines of Portal Master), or instead of Craft Cognizance Crystal use Craft Universal Item (in conjunction with Imprint Stone).

XP Requirements: increase cost like with consistent use magical items: 100 x XP cost of the power during creation (which will then increase the overall cost of the item, so no other cost modifications would need to be made). Then no XP would need to be spent when activating it.

Any thoughts to these?
AntiDjinn
06-30-07, 11:26 AM Cog crystals do not regenerate their power points. They are recharged by the user (well, they can be recharged by anyone who has power points) similar to the item in question.
Zarreth_Nessad
06-30-07, 11:59 AM My mind is out of the office today.. I'm starting to miss it. That's the second or third time just today I've missed a simple rule. Not sure why I thought they regenerated power points.
Andramadus
06-30-07, 01:47 PM POWER STONE CHALLENGE!

Someone care to make a CHEAP first level power stone rechargable example?

~Remember Boots of stomp are 3 a day at 600gp market price, and don't even need rechargeing~
Radijs
07-01-07, 10:41 AM I know of an example that you can use to compare these power stones with.
They are called knowstones. They give the sorceror who holds them an equivalent of 1 extra spell known.
They have the same price scale as pearls of power.

Another item that compares nicely are the runestaffs which are a lot like knowstones. They are from the Magic Item Compendium.
Andramadus
07-01-07, 11:00 AM Pearl of power is 1000gp and it recharges on it's own. That's for a one use item and it recharges any spell/power you want.

Remember boots of stomp are 600gp for 3/day and you also don't need to recharge them.

Also keep in mind that the item should be for only a spefic power, limiting the price further.

What I could use is a cheap chart of 1-9th level power stones cost for a rechargable version.
Radijs
07-01-07, 11:12 AM I said the price of a knowstone scales like the price of a pearl of power.

Boots of stomping do something drastically diffrent then what you want. At least I think so.

What I think you want is an item that when held by a psion allows him to expend PP to activate a specific power that he doesn't know but is provided by the item.

Like so:

A Power Stone provides its bearer with the knolwedge of the inscribed power, wich he can then use his power points to manifest normally (as if the power were among his known powers).
The bearer does not need to make any concious decision to activate the power stone aside from selecting the power to manifest.

Price: (Power level X Power level) X 1000

Comparing them to the boots of stomping is not effective because the boots are something completely diffrent.
Where the boots allow you to create 1 effect 3/day the DC of the effect is set etc.

Whereas the Power Stone you want is limited in use only by the amount of power points you posess and since you manifest the power yourself the DC scales as your relevant ability score modifier increases and/or augment the power.
Andramadus
07-01-07, 11:39 AM Here's basically what I was thinking.

The stone has the power within it, you then use the power as per a normal power stone, then when you have some free time when your about to rest for the day you recharge the stone 1 for 1 basis. You don't use your power points to manifest the power every time, but you use the stored power in the stone.

My logic with the boots of stomp are that they are an example of a first level power. Very cheap and able to be used 3 times daily. I was thinking that once a day would divide the cost to 1/3 making it 200gp. Having to charge the stone with your own points in your down time should further cut the cost to 100gp-150gp. Or if you wanted you could just leave it at 200gp for once a day and you don't need to charge it at all.
Radijs
07-01-07, 12:35 PM Without having to recharge it such an item would depend on the spell level but it would come close to the concept of an eternal wand (magic item compendium pag. 159)
Putting your PP's in it at the end of the day isn't going to matter much. Since you're very likely to rest & regain your PP's after that action. So it wouldn't warrant a price reduction.
Andramadus
07-01-07, 01:08 PM Putting your PP's in it at the end of the day isn't going to matter much. Since you're very likely to rest & regain your PP's after that action. So it wouldn't warrant a price reduction.

But normal items recharge on their own, if your power points are expended you wont be able to use the item. I think double or triple normal price is fair.
Radijs
07-01-07, 01:45 PM Think what you like. I still stand by my argument.
Racinante
07-01-07, 03:14 PM This functionality is virtually identical to the ring of spell storing, and as such the cost would be (Power^2)*2,000 gp.

1 = 2,000 gp
2 = 8,000 gp
3 = 18,000 gp
4 = 32,000 gp
5 = 50,000 gp
6 = 72,000 gp
7 = 98,000 gp
8 = 128,000 gp
9 = 162,000 gp

Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus, or pay an XP cost to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action.

For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the three-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it. (Not every newly discovered ring need be fully charged.)

A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.

The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it.

Faint evocation; CL 5th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 18,000 gp.

Spell Storing: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to five levels of spells.

Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 50,000 gp.

Spell Storing, Major: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to ten levels of spells.

Strong evocation; CL 17th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 200,000 gp.

Restricting this to a particular power should not reduce the cost by more than 50%.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andramadus 06-30-07, 01:31 AM	Just like the title, how much would the cost of rechargeable power stones be? Anyone care to take a stab at this? They should be cheaper than once a day items, sinse you use your own power points to power them. For the adventurer who wants to save time, and energy.
Everdreaming 06-30-07, 02:52 AM	Just like the title, how much would the cost of rechargeable power stones be? Anyone care to take a stab at this? They should be cheaper than once a day items, sinse you use your own power points to power them. For the adventurer who wants to save time, and energy. Quick Question. Do you mean 1/day items, or one use items? Big difference. But as for a pricing scheme, I would price them as regular power stones, with the price doubled(one of these is effectivly an expanded knowledge feat that you can lose).
Andramadus 06-30-07, 02:58 AM	Once a day. Double normal cost seems fair....
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 03:30 AM	The item should be much more that a normal power stone; the guy who is crafting them for sale will sell fewer if they can be re-used, and so will need to charge more. It should, however, be cheaper than a Cognizance Crystal with the same power point total since a Cog Crystal can be used to throw any power of that cost or lower while the points the item you are proposing can only be used to throw that specific power. The other thing to take into consideration: powers with an XP cost. It must be paid by the crafter of a power stone if applicable. In the case of a rechargeable stone then reasonably only the initial XP cost is paid by the crafter, and must be paid by the user each time the stone is recharged (e.g., a stone of Greater Metamorphosis would initially come with the 200 XP cost included, adding 1000 gold to the cost of the item. Thereafter, the XP cost would have to be recharged along with the power points to ready the item for re-use). Or perhaps the XP would be charged when the power is used rather than when the item is recharged; the person charging he power points and the one spending the XP would not have to be the same, I suppose, but all costs associated with a power would have to be paid for each use.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 03:38 AM	I'm not talking about an item that cost's xp every time you want to use it. Simply there are already once a day costs for items or even 3 times a day cost items, and they don't cost xp. What I am trying to create are items that you must charge with your own points thus making them cheaper than the normal versions. The idea of going back to some crafter every time you want to use an item is complicated. I think paying xp every time you use an item is counter productive.
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 03:50 AM	You are talking about an item that costs every time you use it if the power stored costs XP. Read the XPH. There are powers (Greater Metamorphosis, Mind Switch, True Mind Switch, Mind Seed, a few others) that cost XP to manifest. If you have an item with one of these powers then it costs XP. If it can be used to throw the power multiple times then someone has to pay that cost. Just that simple. Either that, or powers that carry a separate XP cost must simply be verboten for this particular item. If you are trying to make a re-usable item, then it need to take these specific instances into account (the one-shot power stone has rules already written for handling power that have XP cost as part of the manifesting cost) and figure it out or you are not ready to write up the item.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 03:53 AM	Those xp costs are fine and would be paid by the user when stored. But powers that don't cost xp shouldnt take xp in the said item usage or rechargeing.
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 04:06 AM	I never said they should. And it can not be assumed that the XP is paid when the power points are stored (although the item could be written that way). It is also possible for the XP cost for a particular power to be paid when the power is used. Example: Item that can manifest True Mind Switch. It has a power point cost of 17 (it shares the augmentation of Mind Switch, so it could be higher). It has an XP cost of 10,000 (wow, that's expensive). Option 1: To recharge the item the user must invest 17 power points and 10,000 XP. That hurts. If he goes a year or more without using the item or gives it to someone else or it gets stolen, he will be unhappy. Option 2: To recharge the item the user must invest 17 power points. He doesn't need to worry about the XP cost until he actually activates the item. This means he keeps his XP until he needs to spend it. It also means someone else could actually use the item and the user, not the recharger is responsible for the XP cost. This is more versatile and should carry a higher market price. Option 3: Powers that carry an XP cost are excluded from this type of item. This is easiest to price, but harder for characters to comprehend without using metagaming terms.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 04:16 AM	Your post makes sense as far as xp. I think number 2 is best just pay the points when you use the power wham you lose the xp. So the cost for these said stones would be? Double? + Double xp for creation?
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 04:23 AM	The next question to answer: What character resources are required? The standard one-shot power stone requires only one feat: Imprint Stone. If this rechargeable stone can be made with only this one feat, then all you need to do is increase the base cost (and all other costs derived from that: Market price, crafting XP cost, and time to craft). This is easy, just a matter of determining how much more to charge. Again, the guy who make the item will ask a lot more for a re-usable item. This option will make the item very common, and may make normal power stones rarer. You could make a new feat (with Imprint Stone as a prereq) or since the item features some elements of a cog crystal, decide that you can only make this item if you have both Imprint Stone and Craft Cog Crystal. This option would jack the price up quite a bit (and make the item fairly rare); the guy who has to learn an extra feat to make an item is going to expect to get paid for his effort. This option works out OK for the users of the item, but is a raw deal for the one who crafts it.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 04:40 AM	Here's a list of standard market costs for power stones 1: 25gp 2: 150gp 3: 375gp 4: 700gp 5: 1,125gp 6: 1,650gp 7: 2,275gp 8: 3000gp 9: 3,825gp I think getting a new feat is just more work. In my opinion Craft Power Stone should be enough. For example Boot's of Stomp 600gp is a first level power and can be used three times daily. The normal power stones of first level cost's 25gp. making them once daily would raise that price I think to 200gp. Now to recharge with your own power would lower the cost to maybe 100gp which is X3 normal price. How does that sound?
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 04:41 AM	For base cost, you might have to do the math at several power levels. To start, try: Normal base cost for the power stone in question plus half the base cost of a Cog Crystal with that number of storage points (you are making a dedicated cog crystal). If the crafter needs a feat other than Imprint Stone then boost the cost by 25% (that puts the market price up another 50%, more than reasonable for the added character investment). If the power imprinted has an XP cost, then the standard rate is 5 gold per XP, the guy who makes the stone pays for the first use of the power. If, instead, the user pays the XP cost, then I would still boost the base cost by 50 gp per power level because it is added versatility and increases the utility of the stone.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-30-07, 11:16 AM	Just a couple thoughts of my own on this idea: Alternative Feat requirements: either a new feat requiring Imprint Stone (like Power Stone Master, along the lines of Portal Master), or instead of Craft Cognizance Crystal use Craft Universal Item (in conjunction with Imprint Stone). XP Requirements: increase cost like with consistent use magical items: 100 x XP cost of the power during creation (which will then increase the overall cost of the item, so no other cost modifications would need to be made). Then no XP would need to be spent when activating it. Any thoughts to these?
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 11:26 AM	Cog crystals do not regenerate their power points. They are recharged by the user (well, they can be recharged by anyone who has power points) similar to the item in question.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-30-07, 11:59 AM	My mind is out of the office today.. I'm starting to miss it. That's the second or third time just today I've missed a simple rule. Not sure why I thought they regenerated power points.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 01:47 PM	POWER STONE CHALLENGE! Someone care to make a CHEAP first level power stone rechargable example? ~Remember Boots of stomp are 3 a day at 600gp market price, and don't even need rechargeing~
Radijs 07-01-07, 10:41 AM	I know of an example that you can use to compare these power stones with. They are called knowstones. They give the sorceror who holds them an equivalent of 1 extra spell known. They have the same price scale as pearls of power. Another item that compares nicely are the runestaffs which are a lot like knowstones. They are from the Magic Item Compendium.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 11:00 AM	Pearl of power is 1000gp and it recharges on it's own. That's for a one use item and it recharges any spell/power you want. Remember boots of stomp are 600gp for 3/day and you also don't need to recharge them. Also keep in mind that the item should be for only a spefic power, limiting the price further. What I could use is a cheap chart of 1-9th level power stones cost for a rechargable version.
Radijs 07-01-07, 11:12 AM	I said the price of a knowstone scales like the price of a pearl of power. Boots of stomping do something drastically diffrent then what you want. At least I think so. What I think you want is an item that when held by a psion allows him to expend PP to activate a specific power that he doesn't know but is provided by the item. Like so: A Power Stone provides its bearer with the knolwedge of the inscribed power, wich he can then use his power points to manifest normally (as if the power were among his known powers). The bearer does not need to make any concious decision to activate the power stone aside from selecting the power to manifest. Price: (Power level X Power level) X 1000 Comparing them to the boots of stomping is not effective because the boots are something completely diffrent. Where the boots allow you to create 1 effect 3/day the DC of the effect is set etc. Whereas the Power Stone you want is limited in use only by the amount of power points you posess and since you manifest the power yourself the DC scales as your relevant ability score modifier increases and/or augment the power.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 11:39 AM	Here's basically what I was thinking. The stone has the power within it, you then use the power as per a normal power stone, then when you have some free time when your about to rest for the day you recharge the stone 1 for 1 basis. You don't use your power points to manifest the power every time, but you use the stored power in the stone. My logic with the boots of stomp are that they are an example of a first level power. Very cheap and able to be used 3 times daily. I was thinking that once a day would divide the cost to 1/3 making it 200gp. Having to charge the stone with your own points in your down time should further cut the cost to 100gp-150gp. Or if you wanted you could just leave it at 200gp for once a day and you don't need to charge it at all.
Radijs 07-01-07, 12:35 PM	Without having to recharge it such an item would depend on the spell level but it would come close to the concept of an eternal wand (magic item compendium pag. 159) Putting your PP's in it at the end of the day isn't going to matter much. Since you're very likely to rest & regain your PP's after that action. So it wouldn't warrant a price reduction.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 01:08 PM	Putting your PP's in it at the end of the day isn't going to matter much. Since you're very likely to rest & regain your PP's after that action. So it wouldn't warrant a price reduction. But normal items recharge on their own, if your power points are expended you wont be able to use the item. I think double or triple normal price is fair.
Radijs 07-01-07, 01:45 PM	Think what you like. I still stand by my argument.
Racinante 07-01-07, 03:14 PM	This functionality is virtually identical to the ring of spell storing, and as such the cost would be (Power^2)*2,000 gp. 1 = 2,000 gp 2 = 8,000 gp 3 = 18,000 gp 4 = 32,000 gp 5 = 50,000 gp 6 = 72,000 gp 7 = 98,000 gp 8 = 128,000 gp 9 = 162,000 gp Spell Storing, Minor: A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus, or pay an XP cost to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action. For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the three-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it. (Not every newly discovered ring need be fully charged.) A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing. The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it. Faint evocation; CL 5th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 18,000 gp. Spell Storing: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to five levels of spells. Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 50,000 gp. Spell Storing, Major: As the minor ring of spell storing, except it holds up to ten levels of spells. Strong evocation; CL 17th; Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Price 200,000 gp. Restricting this to a particular power should not reduce the cost by more than 50%.