Reddopsi: What. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reddopsi: What. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FeceMan
04-28-07, 02:14 AM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/reddopsi.htm

I'm trying to understand how this power works, exactly. If I'm reading this correctly, the manifester is immune to pretty much any power that doesn't "produce an effect," or target an area. So what happens if one kineticist who has manifested reddopsi throws some kind of energy ray at a kineticist who has manifested reddopsi? Does it just keep bouncing back and forth until the power ends?
InkBlot
04-28-07, 02:20 AM From your own link:
Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you.
In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out.

E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage.
FeceMan
04-28-07, 02:32 AM From your own link:

In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out.

E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage.
I don't see how that means they cancel each other out. It's logical to assume that, but it doesn't really state it.
Ra-Tiel
04-28-07, 02:37 AM From your own link:

In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out.

E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage.
But wouldn't exactly energy ray not be affected as it is an "Effect: Ray" power? :thinks:
Second
04-28-07, 02:37 AM E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage.

Bad example. Rays are effects:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#effect

FeceMan: Read the last line under Reddopsi

Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you.

This is to prevent infinite loops of powers bouncing back and forth. Think of it as Reddopsi not having enough time to recover from bouncing back the same power it just rebounded.
FeceMan
04-28-07, 04:04 AM Right, I understand what you are saying. But, saying that it "rebounds once more upon you" doesn't mean that the reddopsi stops working--it just means that it bounces back on one again. Now, one could read this two ways: the power bounces back a single more time, or the power bounces back again ("once more" being up for interpretation).

God, I hate English sometimes.

EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent...
Celsun
04-28-07, 06:37 AM I don't see how that means they cancel each other out. It's logical to assume that, but it doesn't really state it.

If you look at Reddopsi in the XPH, the duration mentiones "Until discharged."

If you look at Reddopsi in the Psionics Handbook, it mentions that "Reddopsi can reverse any power, but ends as soon as it has done so, no matter how minor the power."
AntiDjinn
04-28-07, 10:03 AM No ray of any sort will bounce because a ray is an effect.
dolphin49
04-28-07, 10:23 AM once reddopsi rebounds the power it is discharged.

player A has reddopsi on himself. Player B has reddopsi on himself

and then manifest some power on player A. Player A reddopsi will

rebound power back to player b. Player A reddopsi is now

discharged. Power reflected back to player B. His reddopsi will

now reflect the power back to player A. Player B reddopsi is now

discharged. Player A is affected by the power because now he

has no defense against it.
Ulandorf_TheBlue
04-28-07, 10:28 AM Isn't it basically 'spell turning' for psionics...?
Tempest Stormwind
04-28-07, 12:27 PM EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent...Look at the power parameters -- if it says "Effect:" in it, it's an effect power, while if it says "Target:" it's a targeted one. Mind Thrust has a target (the power is manifest on a particular creature), Energy Ray is an effect (the power creates a ray which is fired off somewhere).
PhaedrusXY
04-28-07, 01:09 PM Isn't it basically 'spell turning' for psionics...?Yes
InkBlot
04-28-07, 02:19 PM once reddopsi rebounds the power it is discharged.

Reddopsi was updated in errata. It's duration has been changed from "until discharged, or 10 min./level" to just "10 min./level (D)."

Reddopsi
Psychokinesis
Level: Kineticist 7
Display: Auditory, mental, and olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Power Points: 13

When you manifest reddopsi, powers targeted against you rebound to affect the original manifester. This effect reverses powers that have only you as a target (except dispel psionics and similar powers or effects). Powers that affect an area and those that produce effects can’t be reversed. Reddopsi also can’t reverse any power with a range of touch.

Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you.

slight tanget;
Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against.
Tempest Stormwind
04-28-07, 02:42 PM slight tanget;
Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against.My Latin's rusty, but I'm pretty sure that "cata" isn't Latin ("against" in Latin is "contra"). My Greek vocabulary is absolutely atrocious, so I can't confirm whether or not it's Greek.

(Strictly speaking, though, "reddo" means "to give back". "Return" has connotations of a location, while "reddo" carries no such connection (and can, in truth, be used for "to repeat" or "to imitate" as well, now that I look it up.))

From what I remember from my astrophysics courses, "apo" is Greek for "from", as in separation from an entity (you've probably heard of 'apogee'). This might explain apopsi as well.

Given that the PHB uses "telekinesis" and "polymorph" and even "teleport", though, I'm not concerned about composite words. Even the Mind's Eye had a similar problem (Psychoapotosis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021122a) -- a quick Google search shows that "apotosis" is programmed cell death), except there they provided a pronunciation guide.
Omen_of_Peace
04-29-07, 07:49 AM [continuing OT]
'cata' is indeed Greek (the primary meaning is 'down from', but it has a slew of alternate translations depending on context : 'according to', 'against'...)
[/continuing OT]
ArcTan
04-29-07, 11:19 PM Right, I understand what you are saying. But, saying that it "rebounds once more upon you" doesn't mean that the reddopsi stops working--it just means that it bounces back on one again. Now, one could read this two ways: the power bounces back a single more time, or the power bounces back again ("once more" being up for interpretation).

God, I hate English sometimes.

Given that no sensible designer would actually *want* the latter explanation, why not take the former one instead? Unless you *want* to make things difficult?

"Rebounds once more" means it rebounds *once* more, not that it keeps on rebounding an indefinite number of times.

EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent...

Nope. Backwards.

An "effect" means the power makes a thing -- a ray, a summoned astral creature, whatever -- rather than targeting a person. Mechanically, it means it has an "Effect:" line rather than a "Target:" line.
ArcTan
04-29-07, 11:25 PM Reddopsi was updated in errata. It's duration has been changed from "until discharged, or 10 min./level" to just "10 min./level (D)."

Yeah. It's a lot better than people have been saying -- it doesn't just reflect one power and stop, it reflects *all* targeted powers until its duration runs out. It just can't reflect the same manifestation of the same power twice.

It's better than spell turning, which craps out after reflecting a certain number of spell levels, and which has stupid rules for two spell turning castings interacting rather than reddopsi's nice clean rules.

slight tanget;
Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against.

Nah. The same happens with real-life words all the time.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason for the weird names reddopsi, catapsi, apopsi, etc. is that they *are* real-life words from parapsychology.
MnemonicSV
04-30-07, 03:35 AM I personally interpret "once more upon you" as it's maximum rebound limit, not that it rebounds indefinitely. That seems the most reasonable at least.

What I find most interesting is that the revision actually makes this power more powerful, as opposed to less powerful. (Most power revisions are more "damage control" than anything else).

When you think about it, the revision actually repaired an undesirable oversight in how Reddospi operates. Before the revision, Reddopsi would effectively be discharged by any power that targets you... including powers that you manifest with yourself as target! That's right, look it up... the power does not differentiate who the "original" manifester is.

(Incidentally, Spell Turning in the PHB suffers the same drawback... but most DMs overlook it. Even WOTC hasn't clarified that minor issue in the FAQ, likely because it simply isn't "frequently asked.")

For example: If you manifested Reddopsi (pre-errata), then subsequently manifested Inertial Barrier, you would effectively discharge the Reddopsi to no effect. The Inertial Barrier would still affect you (bouncing off you to... well... you), but it blows the Reddopsi in the process. And of course, since most manifesters would use this power at the beginning of (or before) a battle, it would force the manifester to avoid most self-buffing powers, or lose the Reddopsi effect completely. An ugly situation at best.

In short... never overlook the errata. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FeceMan 04-28-07, 02:14 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/reddopsi.htm I'm trying to understand how this power works, exactly. If I'm reading this correctly, the manifester is immune to pretty much any power that doesn't "produce an effect," or target an area. So what happens if one kineticist who has manifested reddopsi throws some kind of energy ray at a kineticist who has manifested reddopsi? Does it just keep bouncing back and forth until the power ends?
InkBlot 04-28-07, 02:20 AM	From your own link: Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you. In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out. E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage.
FeceMan 04-28-07, 02:32 AM	From your own link: In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out. E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage. I don't see how that means they cancel each other out. It's logical to assume that, but it doesn't really state it.
Ra-Tiel 04-28-07, 02:37 AM	From your own link: In other words, two manifestations of reddopsi cancel each other out. E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage. But wouldn't exactly energy ray not be affected as it is an "Effect: Ray" power? :thinks:
Second 04-28-07, 02:37 AM	E.G., Bob and Steve are both protected by reddopsi. If Bob manifests energy ray on steve, the ray will bounce off Steve, then bounce off Bob, and then finally strike Steve. Steve takes xd6 damage. Bad example. Rays are effects: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#effect FeceMan: Read the last line under Reddopsi Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you. This is to prevent infinite loops of powers bouncing back and forth. Think of it as Reddopsi not having enough time to recover from bouncing back the same power it just rebounded.
FeceMan 04-28-07, 04:04 AM	Right, I understand what you are saying. But, saying that it "rebounds once more upon you" doesn't mean that the reddopsi stops working--it just means that it bounces back on one again. Now, one could read this two ways: the power bounces back a single more time, or the power bounces back again ("once more" being up for interpretation). God, I hate English sometimes. EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent...
Celsun 04-28-07, 06:37 AM	I don't see how that means they cancel each other out. It's logical to assume that, but it doesn't really state it. If you look at Reddopsi in the XPH, the duration mentiones "Until discharged." If you look at Reddopsi in the Psionics Handbook, it mentions that "Reddopsi can reverse any power, but ends as soon as it has done so, no matter how minor the power."
AntiDjinn 04-28-07, 10:03 AM	No ray of any sort will bounce because a ray is an effect.
dolphin49 04-28-07, 10:23 AM	once reddopsi rebounds the power it is discharged. player A has reddopsi on himself. Player B has reddopsi on himself and then manifest some power on player A. Player A reddopsi will rebound power back to player b. Player A reddopsi is now discharged. Power reflected back to player B. His reddopsi will now reflect the power back to player A. Player B reddopsi is now discharged. Player A is affected by the power because now he has no defense against it.
Ulandorf_TheBlue 04-28-07, 10:28 AM	Isn't it basically 'spell turning' for psionics...?
Tempest Stormwind 04-28-07, 12:27 PM	EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent...Look at the power parameters -- if it says "Effect:" in it, it's an effect power, while if it says "Target:" it's a targeted one. Mind Thrust has a target (the power is manifest on a particular creature), Energy Ray is an effect (the power creates a ray which is fired off somewhere).
PhaedrusXY 04-28-07, 01:09 PM	Isn't it basically 'spell turning' for psionics...?Yes
InkBlot 04-28-07, 02:19 PM	once reddopsi rebounds the power it is discharged. Reddopsi was updated in errata. It's duration has been changed from "until discharged, or 10 min./level" to just "10 min./level (D)." Reddopsi Psychokinesis Level: Kineticist 7 Display: Auditory, mental, and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) Power Points: 13 When you manifest reddopsi, powers targeted against you rebound to affect the original manifester. This effect reverses powers that have only you as a target (except dispel psionics and similar powers or effects). Powers that affect an area and those that produce effects can’t be reversed. Reddopsi also can’t reverse any power with a range of touch. Should you rebound a power back against a manifester who also is protected by reddopsi, the power rebounds once more upon you. slight tanget; Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against.
Tempest Stormwind 04-28-07, 02:42 PM	slight tanget; Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against.My Latin's rusty, but I'm pretty sure that "cata" isn't Latin ("against" in Latin is "contra"). My Greek vocabulary is absolutely atrocious, so I can't confirm whether or not it's Greek. (Strictly speaking, though, "reddo" means "to give back". "Return" has connotations of a location, while "reddo" carries no such connection (and can, in truth, be used for "to repeat" or "to imitate" as well, now that I look it up.)) From what I remember from my astrophysics courses, "apo" is Greek for "from", as in separation from an entity (you've probably heard of 'apogee'). This might explain apopsi as well. Given that the PHB uses "telekinesis" and "polymorph" and even "teleport", though, I'm not concerned about composite words. Even the Mind's Eye had a similar problem (Psychoapotosis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021122a) -- a quick Google search shows that "apotosis" is programmed cell death), except there they provided a pronunciation guide.
Omen_of_Peace 04-29-07, 07:49 AM	[continuing OT] 'cata' is indeed Greek (the primary meaning is 'down from', but it has a slew of alternate translations depending on context : 'according to', 'against'...) [/continuing OT]
ArcTan 04-29-07, 11:19 PM	Right, I understand what you are saying. But, saying that it "rebounds once more upon you" doesn't mean that the reddopsi stops working--it just means that it bounces back on one again. Now, one could read this two ways: the power bounces back a single more time, or the power bounces back again ("once more" being up for interpretation). God, I hate English sometimes. Given that no sensible designer would actually want the latter explanation, why not take the former one instead? Unless you want to make things difficult? "Rebounds once more" means it rebounds once more, not that it keeps on rebounding an indefinite number of times. EDIT: I don't understand...what, exactly, constitutes not being an "effect"? I thought an effect would be something like flesh to stone or the psionic equivalent... Nope. Backwards. An "effect" means the power makes a thing -- a ray, a summoned astral creature, whatever -- rather than targeting a person. Mechanically, it means it has an "Effect:" line rather than a "Target:" line.
ArcTan 04-29-07, 11:25 PM	Reddopsi was updated in errata. It's duration has been changed from "until discharged, or 10 min./level" to just "10 min./level (D)." Yeah. It's a lot better than people have been saying -- it doesn't just reflect one power and stop, it reflects all targeted powers until its duration runs out. It just can't reflect the same manifestation of the same power twice. It's better than spell turning, which craps out after reflecting a certain number of spell levels, and which has stupid rules for two spell turning castings interacting rather than reddopsi's nice clean rules. slight tanget; Does it annoy anyone else that the XPH spells reddopsi and catapsi eah as one word, when it would prevent so many mispronunciations if the were each spelled two (reddo psi and cata psi)? Reddo is latin for return, and cata is greek or latin (I forget) for against. Nah. The same happens with real-life words all the time. Actually, I'm pretty sure the reason for the weird names reddopsi, catapsi, apopsi, etc. is that they are real-life words from parapsychology.
MnemonicSV 04-30-07, 03:35 AM	I personally interpret "once more upon you" as it's maximum rebound limit, not that it rebounds indefinitely. That seems the most reasonable at least. What I find most interesting is that the revision actually makes this power more powerful, as opposed to less powerful. (Most power revisions are more "damage control" than anything else). When you think about it, the revision actually repaired an undesirable oversight in how Reddospi operates. Before the revision, Reddopsi would effectively be discharged by any power that targets you... including powers that you manifest with yourself as target! That's right, look it up... the power does not differentiate who the "original" manifester is. (Incidentally, Spell Turning in the PHB suffers the same drawback... but most DMs overlook it. Even WOTC hasn't clarified that minor issue in the FAQ, likely because it simply isn't "frequently asked.") For example: If you manifested Reddopsi (pre-errata), then subsequently manifested Inertial Barrier, you would effectively discharge the Reddopsi to no effect. The Inertial Barrier would still affect you (bouncing off you to... well... you), but it blows the Reddopsi in the process. And of course, since most manifesters would use this power at the beginning of (or before) a battle, it would force the manifester to avoid most self-buffing powers, or lose the Reddopsi effect completely. An ugly situation at best. In short... never overlook the errata. :D