Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Infinitum 03-22-07, 08:56 PM	I have two questions, if anyone would be so kind as to oblige by (helping) to answer them. 1) Can you in some manner induce an elemental element to the demiplane? For example, can I inhabit the plane with negative energy? 2) What is the real purpose of having a demiplane? Is there anything particularly creative I can do with one? Give suggestions =) Thanks in advance.
Lokiyn 03-22-07, 09:14 PM	Can you in some manner induce an elemental element to the demiplane? For example, can I inhabit the plane with negative energy?No, however you can control the gravity and general shape as well as a few other features allowing you to manipulate quite a few things What is the real purpose of having a demiplane? Is there anything particularly creative I can do with one? Give suggestions =)Anything you want, you can really do anything you want in your pocket universe, kidnap children and raise a group of loyal people who believe you a god, breed tribbles, use it as a beach house, feed the universe. there is quite a bit you can do with it, if your dm lets you have a slight technical bent your demiplane (with looping borders) can have an electrical generation device powered by an everfalling lodestone http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/images/prodicons/mirror.gif (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D399911)
Infinitum 03-22-07, 09:30 PM	"...there is quite a bit you can do with it, if your dm lets you have a slight technical bent your demiplane (with looping borders) can have an electrical generation device powered by an everfalling lodestone." Interesting. If you don't mind, could you elaborate on what could be done with such a configuration? It sounds interesting. =) Thanks for the info. Greatly appreciated.
Lokiyn 03-22-07, 10:01 PM	Well the basic idea is that a Lodestone (a natural magnet) has been known since roughly 400 bc. the idea is that, if allowd by the dm, your character knows of electical induction, maybe not the formulas but the basic idea and effect. (moving lodestone around metal makes small shocks) Your character after creating a pocket universe to test this proceeds to send a large lodestone down a tube, since the borders wrap once it reaches the bottom of your plane it loops back to the top. The idea is that the wizard has a cylinder of some sorts to guide the stone and has metal wrapped around it, experimenting with the effects. Eventually (given enough time and a bit of luck) your character "might" legitimatly have developed a gravity based generator of electricity. What your character does with that is up to you or the dm. If you have acess to the underdark book, one of the portals allows the passage of non living unattended material. The idea here is to have one genesis set up a plane with as high a gravity as the dm will let you. then use the portal to snake cables out to the material plane to produce an infinite electrical source. Another possible effect is that water is magnetic as well as many other substances. With a sufficiently powerful magnetic field it is possible to literally destroy the world, or at the minimum cause all sorts of problems as magnetic materials are drawn to a field positioned in the right place. however all this involves a high level of science normally unknown to your character. Of course if you've run expedition to the barrier peaks and have the salvage remaining you might be able to power up the pieces with enough trial and error. I'm trying to remember if there was a computer in the remains, i don't think there were but i could be wrong.
kyeudo 03-22-07, 10:13 PM	Actualy, since you can control the planar traits of the plane, excepting the time trait, you could probably make the plane negative dominant, either minorly or majorly. Theoreticly, since sentience is a planar trait listed in the DMG, you could create a plane so unsurvivable that it even scares demons and devils. A plane that rivals all nine hells. All you'd need to do is create a majorly negative dominant, majorly fire dominant, heavy gravity plane with impeded magic that actively seeks to kill its inhabitants. Use it as a prison for your worst enemies.
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-07, 10:15 PM	Actualy, since you can control the planar traits of the plane, excepting the time trait, you could probably make the plane negative dominant, either minorly or majorly. Theoreticly, since sentience is a planar trait listed in the DMG, you could create a plane so unsurvivable that it even scares demons and devils. A plane that rivals all nine hells. All you'd need to do is create a majorly negative dominant, majorly fire dominant, heavy gravity plane with impeded magic that actively seeks to kill its inhabitants. Use it as a prison for your worst enemies. And the answer is.... Unicron.
Lokiyn 03-22-07, 10:27 PM	You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on. Planar Traits Each plane of existence has its own properties—the natural laws of its universe. Planar traits are broken down into a number of general areas. All planes have the following kinds of traits. Physical Traits These traits determine the laws of physics and nature on the plane, including how gravity and time function. Elemental and Energy Traits These traits determine the dominance of particular elemental or energy forces. Alignment Traits Just as characters may be lawful neutral or chaotic good, many planes are tied to a particular moral or ethical outlook. Magic Traits Magic works differently from plane to plane, and magic traits set the boundaries for what it can and can’t do. We know we can alter the physical traits as this falls under environment, also noting the reference to time as an exception, time falling under the physical traits of plains, the rest is neither confirmed or denied. Of the Physical traits Gravity Normal Gravity Heavy Gravity Light Gravity No Gravity Objective Directional Gravity Subjective Directional Gravity Time Normal Time Timeless Flowing Time Erratic Time Shape and Size Infinite Finite Shape Self-Contained Shape Morphic Traits Alterable Morphic Highly Morphic Magically Morphic Divinely Morphic Static Sentient I, normally operate that you can only affect the physical traits (- time of course) and ususally place sentience under the "you cannot create life clause". The elemental, Alignment, and magic traits aren't called out in the power so i normally take it on a case by case. For example if the manifester has a subtype, i ususally allow that subtype to bleed over into thier genesis in the form of its corresponding minor trait
kyeudo 03-23-07, 12:50 AM	Golems arnt alive. Undead arn't alive. Elementals arn't alive. See Antilife Shell in the PHB if you dont believe me. So possibly genesis can create them, or minor versions of them.
Lokiyn 03-23-07, 01:39 AM	Oh i won't dispute that, to a degree. However i would point out that such creatures would not be "part of the plane" the power is mainly limited to enviromental effects. In the planes enviromental effects fall under physical traits, since time is include (and then excluded) its safe-ish to say that the power is limited to to a demiplane of the listed size, you can manipulate the physical traits as you wish with the exception of time, and the exception of sentience being blocked out by the "no life" effect. Alignment, Elemental, and Magic traits are separate from enviromental (as a physical trait) so for the most part i assume that the spell does not decide those and that its kept "as the material" Golems undead and elementals are creatures, and while not living are certainly not "enviromental features"
jbsaff 03-23-07, 03:22 PM	Is the environmental determination limited to something like "with weather like Tennessee," or is it more specific? For example, can the manifester will the weather to deviate from a pattern, clearing up rain to make it a sunny day? Or does the weather simply occur in a fashion similar to that visualized at the time of creation? I'm just curious about the RAW interpretation. I realize some of this may fall in the realm of DM permission and interpretation.
Lokiyn 03-23-07, 03:26 PM	I belive you decide the weather patterns at manifestation for example Precipitation every third day, east half of demiplane at an average of 20 Degrees, west half average at 60 degrees. I believe it falls under the line You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis,
AntiDjinn 03-23-07, 03:53 PM	DMs seriously spazed out about this power when it first appeared in 3.0. Yeah, the name is from the Bible, get over it. It does not make you a god within your own plane. It is not a universe in which you are the DM, it is a pocket dimension, a Rope Trick on steroids, an immobile bag of holding that you can actually use as a condo. It does not allow characters to wrest a portion of the cosmos from DM control; think of it more a homesteading on the planes. If you have no problems with the PCs building a stronghold, this power just lets them carve out their niche in one of the transitive planes. The antigenesis version can be a bit of a game wrecker, but assume that in any given world there are powerful beings who will notice such mischief and challenge the manifester. You can set atmospheric effects, but not create life or create ongoing psionic effects. Can it have a constant Catapsi? No, that would be an ongoing psionic effect. If you want it, you have to create it separately after the fact (you can park a large amount of Quintessence there for example). Can it be populated with Astral Constructs? Only if you make them yourself because that is also an ongoing psionic effect. Elementals? Nope, see Elemental Steward. If you want elementals then you need to create your plane, then bring them there. The Genesis power can't create them because it would be an additional ongoing psionic effect that is beyond the listed parameters of the power, whether they are alive or not is irrelevant. Want a living population? You will have to import them initially, but they should be able to reproduce (limited gene pool may make for problems) and keep the population going if the plane has sufficient carrying capacity. Note: The power also does not state that you automatically maintain control of the plane. Just like any location or stronghold, once taken it must be held. If you leave the plane to go adventure and return to find a githyanki raiding party has sacked your stronghold or even taken up residence, there is nothing in the power that says the plane ejects them with a snap of your fingers. You will need to deal with the problem. This is more or less the point of allowing a party to establish a base or stronghold; it gives the DM the opportunity to introduce plot hooks and challenges related to the base. How hard your demiplane is to storm from the astral plane (or wherever) depends on the defenses you have introduced and how well you hide its color pool. The Genesis power itself does not provide for this plane being outside the parameters of any other demiplane in this regard.
Infinitum 03-23-07, 04:25 PM	To what extend can you use a Reality Revision/Wish/Miracle power/spell to alter Genesis?
Racinante 03-23-07, 05:17 PM	Is the environmental determination limited to something like "with weather like Tennessee," or is it more specific? .... Would that be east Tennessee, in the Great Smoky Mountains, middle Tennessee, or the muggy southwest Tennessee area?
Racinante 03-23-07, 05:20 PM	I belive you decide the weather patterns at manifestation for example Precipitation every third day, east half of demiplane at an average of 20 Degrees, west half average at 60 degrees. I believe it falls under the line I would specify something more generic, like temperate, arctic, equatorial, or pick a comparable location the players are familiar with, like southern Florida, Alaskan interior, northern Canada, London, Hong Kong, etc.
Halaku 03-23-07, 06:35 PM	To make my DM happy, and satisfy my own curiosity, would anyone happen to have the errata/custserv reading on what traits you can and cant control/set when using genesis, both the psionic and magical versions?
jbsaff 03-23-07, 07:46 PM	Would that be east Tennessee, in the Great Smoky Mountains, middle Tennessee, or the muggy southwest Tennessee area? Oh the Smokies. My wife keeps telling me we have to visit there, and I'm a big mountains fan anyway. On a more serious note, Genesis states you are limited to rock and dirt. Can you designate a pre-existing river, or is water an esoteric material?
Lokiyn 03-23-07, 08:06 PM	I've always sidestepped the issue with the atmosphere. Initially the rivers and such are empty channels but once the rain cycle kicks in the rivers fill up. As a side not click on the mirror in my first post in this thread or follow the genesis link in my sig.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-23-07, 10:34 PM	You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on. It specifically lists water as a factor you can control, so rivers and lakes aren't an issue. The fun thing about this power is the increasing radius. It can increase its radius by a mile every 100 years (fun for elans and elves, not so fun for humans). In theory, if left to itself long enough, the demiplane will become large enough to be its own world. Otherwise, the text basically says that it's only limited by your imagination (outside of duplicating spell effects).
Lokiyn 03-23-07, 10:49 PM	ONe of the more fun things is that you can force its expansion So you manifest it once. 180 days later its 180 feet in radius, If you manifest genesis a second time you reforce its rapid expansion, that plus the natural expansion means that 362 days later the demiplane is 386 feet in radius. If you continue this process in 6.5 years (13 manifestations) you have spent 13000 xp total (over 6.5 years) Spent 13 weeks, and have a demiplane a mile in diameter.
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:01 PM	Well the basic idea is that a Lodestone (a natural magnet) has been known since roughly 400 bc. the idea is that, if allowd by the dm, your character knows of electical induction, maybe not the formulas but the basic idea and effect. (moving lodestone around metal makes small shocks) Well, it doesn't. The amount of current generated by moving a lodestone around a metal object isn't even close to the amount necessary to feel a shock. That's *why* induction wasn't discovered until well after voltaic piles (batteries) that could generate large amounts of current were discovered (so we could make powerful electromagnets, much more powerful than natural lodestones). Your character after creating a pocket universe to test this proceeds to send a large lodestone down a tube, since the borders wrap once it reaches the bottom of your plane it loops back to the top. The idea is that the wizard has a cylinder of some sorts to guide the stone and has metal wrapped around it, experimenting with the effects. Eventually (given enough time and a bit of luck) your character "might" legitimatly have developed a gravity based generator of electricity. You realize that this is the old "infinite energy from infinite acceleration" cheese, right? And that this has the same problem -- nothing is capable of accelerating indefinitely, and the "infinite energy" will start manifesting as your mechanism heating up until it melts or explodes. What your character does with that is up to you or the dm. If you have acess to the underdark book, one of the portals allows the passage of non living unattended material. The idea here is to have one genesis set up a plane with as high a gravity as the dm will let you. then use the portal to snake cables out to the material plane to produce an infinite electrical source. *sigh* Another possible effect is that water is magnetic as well as many other substances. With a sufficiently powerful magnetic field it is possible to literally destroy the world, or at the minimum cause all sorts of problems as magnetic materials are drawn to a field positioned in the right place. The magnetic field wouldn't extend from the demiplane onto the Material Plane. however all this involves a high level of science normally unknown to your character. Of course if you've run expedition to the barrier peaks and have the salvage remaining you might be able to power up the pieces with enough trial and error. I'm trying to remember if there was a computer in the remains, i don't think there were but i could be wrong. ...This is cheese, I have to say, plain and simple. It's not only "a level of science unknown to your character" but a level of science unknown to the D&D rules, which means the rules don't let you do it. It's nonsense. It's really not how the spell was intended to work, and while a fast and loose DM might allow it to operate if he really wants to reward wacky creativity, the thing is that this wonky physics wouldn't actually work in real life, the D&D rules provide no guarantee that it would work at all. It's one of those things that's impossible by rules physics and real physics and should not be assumed as "One of the things you can do with genesis". When people ask "What can I do with this spell?" the answers should be things that are actually *intended* by the spell, not imaginative things that draw on sources outside of D&D to try to break the game. By the way, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is not canon for 3.5 D&D, in any way, shape or form. It's *supposed* to be non-canon -- it's an imaginative crossover of the kind popular back in the days when not even the creators of D&D took D&D seriously. There was a Web article talking about how you'd convert Barrier Peaks to a 3.5 adventure using d20 Modern rules, but it only had rules for the hostile robots and the weapons, not computers. And just because it exists in Barrier Peaks or some other stupid module Gary Gygax made when he was high doesn't mean it exists in D&D.
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:07 PM	DMs seriously spazed out about this power when it first appeared in 3.0. Yeah, the name is from the Bible, get over it. It's not really "from the Bible". It's just a word for "beginning".
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:09 PM	To what extend can you use a Reality Revision/Wish/Miracle power/spell to alter Genesis? As much as you could use such a spell to alter reality on any other plane. Again, you don't get any special godlike powers over your plane after you create it, only when you manifest the power or cast the spell. I would rule it's beyond the power of a 9th-level spell/power, to augment the power of another 9th-level spell/power. Well, miracle is always up to your deity's discretion ("Integrate this demiplane with my own divine realm, taking control of it forever? Well, sure!") but wish and reality revision can both explicitly duplicate the effects of *8th-level or lower* spells/powers -- making them do something another 9th-level spell does, but better, is the definition of asking for a perversion.
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:12 PM	I, normally operate that you can only affect the physical traits (- time of course) and ususally place sentience under the "you cannot create life clause". The elemental, Alignment, and magic traits aren't called out in the power so i normally take it on a case by case. It never says you can manipulate all planar traits except time. In fact, it specifically says what traits you *can* manipulate, and the usual rule for D&D (that prevents insanity) is that if it doesn't say you can do something that means you can't do it.
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:19 PM	2) What is the real purpose of having a demiplane? Is there anything particularly creative I can do with one? Give suggestions =) Thanks in advance. The main thing is that it's a great fortress and cool toy. Its purpose is mainly to make it harder to find your special bolt-hole -- no one can plane shift to it if they don't know it exists, unless they somehow stumble upon its color pool in the Astral by accident (highly unlikely). Which means it's your own little universe where you're totally safe from attack -- and with enough work you can customize it into anything you want. Note that this is a lot of work, though -- you can't just magically make a full-blown kingdom out of nothing, you have to build a world from the ground up starting with stones and water. (And the intention is to make it still be recognizably a world -- you're supposed to be manipulating mundane traits to make a sealed-off land that looks the way you want it to, not creating super-magical hell dimensions.)
TheDarkLord 03-23-07, 11:20 PM	You realize that this is the old "infinite energy from infinite acceleration" cheese, right? And that this has the same problem -- nothing is capable of accelerating indefinitely, and the "infinite energy" will start manifesting as your mechanism heating up until it melts or explodes. Just a small nit-pick. Saying you cannot infinitly accelerate is a theory not actual fact because there is no way at this point and time to prove that Einstein is wrong. Though from a Scientific Journal that is laying around here at work somewhere, dated sometime at the end of last year it seems more and more scientist's are beginning to disagree with this. I think the title says something like "Theory is not Fact" or some other nonsense.
ArcTan 03-23-07, 11:33 PM	Just a small nit-pick. Saying you cannot infinitly accelerate is a theory not actual fact because there is no way at this point and time to prove that Einstein is wrong. Though from a Scientific Journal that is laying around here at work somewhere, dated sometime at the end of last year it seems more and more scientist's are beginning to disagree with this. I think the title says something like "Theory is not Fact" or some other nonsense. Er, I'm not talking about relativity. Even in a purely Newtonian universe, the fact that the thing you're accelerating is made out of normal matter rather than some imaginary indestructible unobtainium means that if you add enough energy to it, it will heat up and vaporize and your little generator machine will be destroyed.
TheDarkLord 03-23-07, 11:39 PM	Er, I'm not talking about relativity. Even in a purely Newtonian universe, the fact that the thing you're accelerating is made out of normal matter rather than some imaginary indestructible unobtainium means that if you add enough energy to it, it will heat up and vaporize and your little generator machine will be destroyed. Assuming some kind of friction. In a true vaccum, there is nothing to rub against or slow down said object. Edit: As I am not a scientist, I can't attest to how you would accelerate something to an infintesimal speed or anything, I'm assuming Ion sail, or proton sail, propulsion would only accelerate you to the speed of light. Then agian at that speed light might actually cause some sort of friction/heat energy as well. I'm just going on what I read about accelerating past the speed of light and whatnot.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 12:02 AM	Assuming some kind of friction. In a true vaccum, there is nothing to rub against or slow down said object. He's constantly accelerating this lodestone past the induction coils, right? This will constantly increase the current flowing through the induction coils, eventually causing the coils to overheat and melt. If you're getting energy from this in *some* way, you will eventually overheat your device and destroy it, because there is no perfectly efficient means of gathering energy, nor any perfectly indestructible device. (Second Law of Thermodynamics.) Edit: As I am not a scientist, I can't attest to how you would accelerate something to an infintesimal speed or anything, I'm assuming Ion sail, or proton sail, propulsion would only accelerate you to the speed of light. Then agian at that speed light might actually cause some sort of friction/heat energy as well. I'm just going on what I read about accelerating past the speed of light and whatnot. Well, in a relativistic, not Newtonian universe, the object is increasing in mass as it approaches the speed of light. But you claim to disbelieve in relativity because it's "only a theory", so whatever. (We *have* proven the fact that particles travelling at close to C increase in mass, so whatever.)
TheDarkLord 03-24-07, 12:09 AM	He's constantly accelerating this lodestone past the induction coils, right? This will constantly increase the current flowing through the induction coils, eventually causing the coils to overheat and melt. If you're getting energy from this in *some* way, you will eventually overheat your device and destroy it, because there is no perfectly efficient means of gathering energy, nor any perfectly indestructible device. (Second Law of Thermodynamics.) That's why I'm not a Scientist, I'm a business man who can sell science :D. Well, in a relativistic, not Newtonian universe, the object is increasing in mass as it approaches the speed of light. I've heard that. But you claim to disbelieve in relativity because it's "only a theory", so whatever. (We *have* proven the fact that particles travelling at close to C increase in mass, so whatever.) Oh come on, don't be so snippy, I'm not a scientist :D. I just said Theory is not fact, and it isn't given the definition of a theory. That said, link me somewhere they prove that accelerating in a vaccum means increased mass. If it is truly fact I can't deny it. The only way I see a molecule expanding is if something is forcing it to expand, bouncing off of something, going through something, general air resistance or something.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 01:07 AM	I just said Theory is not fact, and it isn't given the definition of a theory. That said, link me somewhere they prove that accelerating in a vaccum means increased mass. If it is truly fact I can't deny it. The only way I see a molecule expanding is if something is forcing it to expand, bouncing off of something, going through something, general air resistance or something. This is a misuse of the way scientists use the word "theory". Theory doesn't mean "fact we're not sure is true". "Theory" and "fact" are different *kinds* of statements, not different degrees of sureness. A fact is a single recorded observation, like "Today I saw a bird flying". A theory is a general statement based on a series of recorded observations, intended to generalize from or explain the facts. If I see birds fly every day, eventually I put together all the *facts* of birds flying and I say "Hey, birds, in general, get around by flying". That's a theory. It can't be proven false or true the way a single fact can -- "Nuh uh, I was there that day and I didn't see a bird flying" -- but it can be proven or disproven based on the weight of a lot of facts -- "Nuh uh, I go out *every* day and I don't see birds flying". So no, "just a theory" is a stupid thing to say. Newton's Theory of Gravitation has been tested uncountable times since it was written down, but it's still a theory. It's not a fact, because a fact is an *individual instance* of something happening, and a theory is something that happens in general. But theories can be very certain, if they have a lot of facts to back them up. "The sun rises every day in the east" is a theory, because it's a general statement. A factual statement could only be a statement like "The sun rose in the east yesterday, and I saw it rise in the east again today." Tangent, sorry. But it really peeves me when people get that wrong. And no, I'm not a scientist either, but I consider it my duty to be minimally educated about the things people know that make my world work. Every time they run a particle accelerator, the increase in apparent mass of a particle can be observed, since a particle accelerator works by accelerating particles close to C. Here, read through the Wikipedia article on particle accelerators: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerator We're not talking about a new or untested theory here, we're talking about a theory that can be observed every day and that is the basis of everything modern physicists do above the quantum level. P.S.: Really, this kind of infinite acceleration trick wouldn't be possible without the Objective Directional Gravity trait and Self-Contained trait, both of which kind of break physics. Which is fine as far as it goes, but my rule is that if you openly embrace parts of the D&D rules that ignore physics, like Objective Directional Gravity, then I get to ignore any physics you try to use, especially stuff like electromagnetic induction.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 01:09 AM	The only way I see a molecule expanding is if something is forcing it to expand, bouncing off of something, going through something, general air resistance or something. None of these things, by the way, actually increase anything's mass in Newtonian physics. You can't make something heavier by touching it, or by stretching it out. To be fair, conservation of mass holds in Special Relativity too. What's being increased is the object's apparent mass or relativistic mass, from our frame of reference. Its invariant mass remains the same, as does its mass from its own point of view. Yes, it's hard to wrap your head around and I don't understand it perfectly myself, which is why I'm not a physicist. I still consider it not that hard to learn the basics so you can talk about it without making a fool of yourself.
Infinitum 03-24-07, 01:30 AM	I wonder if you can use Genesis to create an ultra-dense plane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you determine the physical variables the plane runs by? (In exception to time of course.) Imagine making a plane similar to a giant black hole, literally crushing anything that enters it. You can then use it for any number of things =) Just a thought >.>
ArcTan 03-24-07, 01:48 AM	I wonder if you can use Genesis to create an ultra-dense plane. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you determine the physical variables the plane runs by? (In exception to time of course.) Imagine making a plane similar to a giant black hole, literally crushing anything that enters it. You can then use it for any number of things =) Just a thought >.> I would say that the presence of stuff like Objective Directional Gravity indicates that gravity in D&D does not work like gravity in real life, so no black holes. I would also say that "ultra-dense" matter counts as exactly the kind of "esoteric material" the spell says you can't make. By RAW, although you can manipulate Gravity Traits, there is no Gravity Trait heavier than Heavy Gravity, which merely doubles all item weights, forces a -2 penalty on various checks and increases falling damage to d10s. So no, no Jupiter-like worlds. I would, in general, say that the spell is obviously designed to make a little Earthlike world for you to live in (and the name of the spell obviously comes from the Genesis Device in Star Trek, which makes a little Earthlike world) and trying to make it do other things is cheese.
Infinitum 03-24-07, 02:09 AM	Bleh. I guess it's not a bad spell, just seems restrictive. Gotta deal with it though I guess, I'm sure there has to be *something* that can be actively done with it instead of merely using it as a base of operations or a long project. I dunno, it's late, who knows, maybe I'll get an epiphany.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:31 AM	Well, "Earthlike" might be going too far. You can give the demiplane a toxic atmosphere, make its ambient temperature thousands of degrees, make it consist of a few tiny floating islands of rock in an airless void, etc. You can make it quite lethal, as long as the components you're making the demiplane out of are ordinary atmospheric gases, ordinary minerals, and the standard D&D traits that bind them (gravity, planar borders, etc.) You can't make a prison dimension with the negative energy trait, but you *can* make an airless prison dimension where a bad guy who's unprepared will quickly suffocate, or a prison dimension that's a blastingly hot desert where he'll quickly die of heat damage, or a cold methane sea where he'll quickly die of cold damage (and poison). All this I read as eminently possible with genesis. I mean, who needs the Fire-Dominant descriptor when you can just *say* "This place is several thousand degrees in temperature?" And is Negative-Dominant really better than saying "The whole atmosphere is suffused with toxic methane fumes"? Making a prison or deathtrap out of genesis is just as good as making a home out of it. The problem is, of course, that once you get high-level enough to use it, the bad guys you're fighting are likely to have spellcasting and to be able to plane shift out of a bad situation relatively quickly unless you incapacitate them first. Still, making a horrible dimension and gating someone to it sounds like a fine plan to me.
Lokiyn 03-24-07, 02:52 AM	Ok lets take this point by point InductionCould a reasonably high intelligence wizard with an alchemical background devise an idea of induction?Yes, in my opinion A wizard could learn some basics through serendipity, for example the concept of conduction was discovered by accident. Stephen Gray discovered this, not through painsataking research but by a simple observation that rubbing a glass tube would cause its cork to generate charge that attracted small objects, upon that discovery a littly toying around and Grey discovered that these virtues could be transmited along strings of silk or other materials and that metal bent the virtues, and that the small charges generrated this way were fundementally the same as lightningThe earliest example of magnetics is in the lodestone (as mentioned) If a wizard had installed a lodestone in an orrery, or other some such device he would notice a build up of static and a magnitization of any small metal objects left within reach of the lodestone. (Magnetite varies in strength, some lodestones are more magnetic than others) in fact metal struck by lightning can and will become strongly magnetized, in fact John Henry discovered that lightning will magnetize objects from up to 8 miles from the original lightning strike.Anyway, The idea is that a wizard is most likely to discover static generators first, once a serendipitus discovery of conduction (as per Stephen Gray) a simple acidental discovery such as noticing that the nail your silk and hemp "wire" is wrapped around is sticking to your tongs would put you on the path of electromagnets and induction.Its possible i belive is my main point, they may not understand the science, but then did they really understand the science of gunpowder? or most medicines? no. what is important that they understand an effect and what seems to make it. As for the power generator, The main issue here is that you assume i'm operating outside the bounds of the power, i'm not. Genesis demiplanes are by definition FiniteYou create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Finite has a specific definition in this case Finite Shape A plane with this trait has defined edges or borders. These borders may adjoin other planes or hard, finite borders such as the edge of the world or a great wall. Demiplanes are often finite. What i failed to mention properly is the use of a couple of things to ensure this goes of right. first the tube is at its base containing a portal with the nonlinving enhancement from the underdark book. What this does is allow the portal to pass unattended objects. in this case a lodestone to a destination, in this case the top of the cylinder. The design is such that the top exit is smaller than the bottom, this "centers" the stones as they fall.as an aside you don't really need magnetism for this, you can use a falling collumn of water that works just as well to power large water wheels at near perfect efficiency and before you bring it up yes you can account for that with a decanter of endless water to top off the resevoirAs for heat that isn't really a problem. the coils themselves will not heat up to destruction as long as you discharge the excess energy and anyone smart enough to build this is certainly smart enough to realize a little water or simple chill metal to bleed off the heat would be wise.As for power this system will not run out, period. The system is powered by the gravity of the plane, as long as that keeps working the system keeps working and nothing here will affect the gravity.Furthermore, i never said the magnetic field will extend past the portal, i said that a strong enough magnetic field "would" destroy tissue and cause havoc, the implication were that you use the demiplane as a source of "power" rather than the source of the field.No the system does not need objective directional gravity, standard gravity works fine Planar traitsI made not the claim that the power could manipulate all traits, I made that claim that the power allows you to manipulate the physical traits as part of the "manipulate the enviroment" as well as noting that of the physical sub traits time is excluded from this manipulation. The other traits are neither explicitly allowed nor disallowed, although they are implicitly disallowed i stated thati normally take it on a case by case. And do as a dm allow certain manipulations (mainly only if the manifester has a subtype that makes thematic sense to carry over as a minor trait) Also Genesis planes do not have natural color pools nor portals Genesis planes, as demiplanes, cannot be planeshifted to (although they can be gated too) i'll grab a page number when i get back to my books. Heavy gravity planes can be more than a factor of two, according (if i recall) to the manual of the planes
AntiDjinn 03-24-07, 03:16 AM	It's not really "from the Bible". It's just a word for "beginning". It is the title of the first book of the Bible -- the one that details the creation of the world. It caused a stir (and much panic posting) when the PsiHB first appeared over the implications of "fiat lux" and all that followed. Then, as now, DM's just needed to read the text of the power to see what it actually does instead of just deciding that creating a pocket dimension is god-like power. If it is in the text of the power, then it happens and all that is listed is reasonable for a 9th level effect with an extending manifesting time. If it is not listed, and is meerly inferred, then the DM has full control over any added parameters and how the rest of the game universe treats this pocket paradise.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:56 PM	Manual of the Planes is technically non-core, but whatever: Genesis planes do not have natural color pools nor portals Then how is it that you can get to it with astral caravan? Genesis planes, as demiplanes, cannot be planeshifted to (although they can be gated too) i'll grab a page number when i get back to my books. Then how is it that you can get to it with psionic plane shift? The psionic power specifically calls these two out as normal ways you can travel to your demiplane, by default. Any other method is something you have to arrange for separately. (I.e. in order to install a permanent planar portal in it you have to craft it *yourself* after you cast genesis.) What I take this to mean, using MotP rules, is that the demiplane starts off with one point of access, the place on the Astral or Ethereal Plane where you created it. The rule says that you can't plane shift to a demiplane from just anywhere, but only to and from its access point -- fine, but you can still use plane shift. By default, this is the *only* way to escape a genesis plane after you've made one, because no natural portals exist on it by default. Heavy gravity planes can be more than a factor of two, according (if i recall) to the manual of the planes "You can double or even triple the heavy gravity effect for particular planes." Fine. The fact that it says "or even triple" means that making a 10,000-times-normal gravity plane to do stupid things involving real-world physics is not possible.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 02:58 PM	It is the title of the first book of the Bible -- the one that details the creation of the world. Well, yes, I know that. That doesn't necessarily make it a biblical reference, because it's just the Greek word for "beginning". It caused a stir (and much panic posting) when the PsiHB first appeared over the implications of "fiat lux" and all that followed. Then, as now, DM's just needed to read the text of the power to see what it actually does instead of just deciding that creating a pocket dimension is god-like power. If it is in the text of the power, then it happens and all that is listed is reasonable for a 9th level effect with an extending manifesting time. If it is not listed, and is meerly inferred, then the DM has full control over any added parameters and how the rest of the game universe treats this pocket paradise. Yeah, I agree. When I see the spell I don't think Genesis 1:1, I think the Genesis Device from Star Trek. (Doesn't the original version even reference the Genesis Device, using the word "protomatter"?)
yrogerg 03-24-07, 03:24 PM	P.S.: Really, this kind of infinite acceleration trick wouldn't be possible without the Objective Directional Gravity trait and Self-Contained trait, both of which kind of break physics. Which is fine as far as it goes, but my rule is that if you openly embrace parts of the D&D rules that ignore physics, like Objective Directional Gravity, then I get to ignore any physics you try to use, especially stuff like electromagnetic induction. This is why I just stick to the rulesy rationale for why it doesn't work, rather than the physicsy one: D&D terminal velocity is not defined as a function of air resistence, so all falling damage, atmosphere or not, cap at 20d6 damage in normal gravity. Therefore, it is impossible for things to accelerate infinitely in D&D.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-24-07, 10:00 AM	Can I select the "minor positive energy trait" for my demiplane?
Lycanthromancer 12-25-07, 02:56 AM	The power doesn't say you can't, but then again, it doesn't say you can. I'd rule no, but I'm not your DM. Check my revision for a revised version of it.
hovnarr 12-26-07, 06:33 AM	What I take this to mean, using MotP rules, is that the demiplane starts off with one point of access, the place on the Astral or Ethereal Plane where you created it. The rule says that you can't plane shift to a demiplane from just anywhere, but only to and from its access point -- fine, but you can still use plane shift. By default, this is the *only* way to escape a genesis plane after you've made one, because no natural portals exist on it by default. Wait, wait, wait. So you can't just use Plane shift while on the material plane to travel to your extraplanar condo? You mean to say that you first have to PS to Astral Plane, then teleport to entry point, and THEN planeshift again? I don't think that's what Cordell envisioned in this part of the genesis power description: Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately. Specific trumps generic. MotP states you can't planeshift to a demiplane - be that as it may. Genesis states you can planeshift to your own demiplane, trumping the general case. EDIT: Oh, and btw, just wanted to point out what I feel is the biggest use for Genesis: Keeping your followers safe. If you're a thrallherd, this is less of a concern since fallen herd members respawn. Then, spreading your herd out is probably more beneficial. OTOH, if you go with Leadership instead, consider paying 5-6k gp for Genesis when you hit level 9 and get Planeshift. Start moving your followers there. A home base gives + to your Leadership score, and creates the basis for a self sustaining economy while keeping your mooks safe from harm (at least, a lot more safe than they'd be in a common castle or fort).