Rule Question: Energy Current and Line of Effect [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rule Question: Energy Current and Line of Effect [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jhaelen
03-22-07, 08:34 PM I've looked in the FAQ and searched the boards with google but couldn't find an answer to this (and some other aspects of the power):
1) It's clear that the manifester requires line of effect to the primary target of an Energy Current power. But how about the secondary target?
2) Does she require line of effect to it as well or is line of sight sufficient?
3) And/or does there have to be a line of effect between the primary and the secondary target?
4) Does the manifester get to choose the secondary target or is it determined randomly?
5) The description states the power will randomly retarget a new primary and/or secondary target if the old one falls below 0 hp. Does it also retarget if a target moves out of range?
6) Does it matter if line of effect or line of sight exists in later rounds when the manifester maintains concentration?
7) Is it possible to maintain concentration on the power if no targets are in range, i.e. waiting for potential targets to reenter the range of effect?

I'd greatly appreciate any help on any of these issues.
Red12
03-22-07, 08:44 PM Just my interpretation:

1. No, just need a line of effect to the primary.
2. Line of sight
3. Yes, there needs to be a line of effect from primary to secondary.
4. Chooses upon casting.
5. Yes, though one could argue against that.
6. Yes.
7. Don't know about that one. I don't think I would take issue with it, some might.
Jhaelen
03-23-07, 04:55 AM Thanks for your interpretation Red12!

Any other opinions/confirmations/objections?
Tsuul
03-23-07, 05:30 PM 7) I would start building up circumstance bonuses every 10 rounds after the first 10 rounds to negate the "I go on watch and concentrate on my Personal Area Defense System(P.A.D.S.)." But there are no rules for it.
Jhaelen
03-23-07, 06:44 PM 7) I would start building up circumstance bonuses every 10 rounds after the first 10 rounds to negate the "I go on watch and concentrate on my Personal Area Defense System(P.A.D.S.)." But there are no rules for it.
Interesting take on this situation, thanks Tsuul!
I'm currently inclined to err on the side of safety (i.e. disallow this completely), since the power is arguably one of the more powerful ones.
Also, iirc, effects that target a creature and have a continous effect requiring concentration normally end if the target leaves the effect's range.

I'm still interested in other opinions/suggestions! :cool:

Especially the first four questions (determination of valid secondary targets) seem to be a grey area in the rules although there are other effects that use a similar mechanism (e.g. the chain lightning spell).
The last three questions are more specific to this particular power. At least off the top of my head I cannot think of any similar effects.

Anyone else care to share his/her thoughts on these matters?
ravidubey
03-23-07, 11:17 PM My take...

1) It's clear that the manifester requires line of effect to the primary target of an Energy Current power. But how about the secondary target?

Needs to be able to pinpoint (ie some kind of line of sight or other detection) both targets and needs line of effect to both (no walls of force in between). The target of the power is two creatures, and by definition targeted powers can't affect targets the manifester can't pinpoint. I can understand why it's a question, but IMO best not to change the targeting rules unless a spell description specifically says so.

2) Does she require line of effect to it as well or is line of sight sufficient?
3) And/or does there have to be a line of effect between the primary and the secondary target?

Yes and yes by extension of previous answer.

4) Does the manifester get to choose the secondary target or is it determined randomly?

Unless the spell says otherwise, the manifester gets to choose. That's how targeted spells work.

5) The description states the power will randomly retarget a new primary and/or secondary target if the old one falls below 0 hp. Does it also retarget if a target moves out of range?

Technically it does not because the description does not say so. Targeted spells always need a target unless the description specifically says otherwise.

6) Does it matter if line of effect or line of sight exists in later rounds when the manifester maintains concentration?

Yes

7) Is it possible to maintain concentration on the power if no targets are in range, i.e. waiting for potential targets to reenter the range of effect?

No. Same answer as 5)-- targeted powers always need a target. This spell always needs a primary target chosen by the manifester unless (by variation specific to his power only) the primary target hits 0 hp. That's the only condition by which the spell keeps going, otherwise standard rules apply.
Jhaelen
03-24-07, 07:58 AM Thanks a lot, ravidubey! Your reasoning makes sense to me.
I am now pretty confident you got the correct answers to questions 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7.

I am a bit less sure about question 3 since the description doesn't say the energy current cannot 'move around bends'. However one of the basic rules is indeed, if the description doesn't say so, it doesn't work that way (it's not a spread).
It also fits to the answer to questions 1 and 2: A target that moves somewhere where it gets total cover from the manifester becomes an invalid target, thus ending the power's effect on it. I.e. the energy current between manifester and primary target cannot bend, so why should the current between primary and secondary target be able to do so?

Question 5 is more difficult. While the power doesn't explicitly say so, it might have been intended to randomly retarget whenever one of the two targets becomes an invalid one, regardless of the reason (i.e. moving out of range, moving where there is no line of effect, falling below 0 hp, or completely evading the effect.
The easy answer is, of course, the description doesn't say so, so it doesn't.

One additional question just came to my mind:
The description uses the word 'foe' when it explains how retargeting works. I assume this means, the power will not consider allies of the manifester a valid target. But who decides who is a foe and who isn't? Should I ask the manifester's player which creatures in range she considers to be foes for the purpose of this power? If so, would it be possible for the manifester to later change her mind?
Examples:
- The manifester's party is accompanied by an npc who at some point in the fight turns against the party.
- One of the manifester's allies is dominated by an enemy and forced to turn against the party.
- The manifester decides to turn against his former allies (either of his own will or under coercion)

Phew, this sure is some tricky power :)
Lycanthromancer
03-24-07, 11:25 PM If you're going to be making regular use of this power, and you're not a seer, try Expanded Knowledge: Fate Link, then go nuts.
ravidubey
03-25-07, 03:23 PM Thanks a lot, ravidubey! Your reasoning makes sense to me.

Glad you agree.
I am a bit less sure about question 3 since the description doesn't say the energy current cannot 'move around bends'. However one of the basic rules is indeed, if the description doesn't say so, it doesn't work that way (it's not a spread).

Think of it this way, the energy current can take almost any path within power range to reach its secondary target, no matter how circuitous, as long as the manifester maintains LOE and can pinpoint the secondary target.

I can't imagine a case where the manifester has LOE and can pinpoint both targets but the Primary does not have LOE to the secondary target. If nothing else, the energy could loop back through the manifester's own space and arc to the secondary target.

The range and targeting mechanics of the spell might be different than the wierd and arcing path the current takes.

Question 5 is more difficult. While the power doesn't explicitly say so, it might have been intended to randomly retarget whenever one of the two targets becomes an invalid one, regardless of the reason (i.e. moving out of range, moving where there is no line of effect, falling below 0 hp, or completely evading the effect.
The easy answer is, of course, the description doesn't say so, so it doesn't.

I agree, unfortunately since it didn't say so it's best not to assume the case. This is a very powerful ability, so its description should be taken literally, IMO.

One additional question just came to my mind:
The description uses the word 'foe' when it explains how retargeting works.

We come up with this same question all the time regarding Summon Monster, Astral Construct, Energy Missile, Dimension Swap, etc. Bottom line is that part of the magic is to "know" what the manifester knows regarding friends and foes.

The abilities are supposed to be beneficial, but should not discover new relationships the caster/manifester does not already know about-- i.e. the power can not act as an enemy detection ability (unless again the description says so).

So when manifester/caster does not know for certain that an encounter is a foe, best to have the power do nothing.
Jhaelen
03-25-07, 04:54 PM @Lycanthromancer: Hehe, that's nasty :D

I can't imagine a case where the manifester has LOE and can pinpoint both targets but the Primary does not have LOE to the secondary target.Well, there's only one configuration, I can think of, which may be rare but at least not entirely hypothetical ;) :
---+---
o 1|2 o
o o o o m = manifester
o o o o 1 = primary target
o o o o 2 = secondary target
o o o o
o m o o
If the current can bend around the thin barrier that blocks LOE between the targets both can be affected; the distance would be exactly 15'.
This is a very powerful ability, so its description should be taken literally, IMO.In case of doubt, that's my default as well. I'll talk it through with the kineticist's player, anyway. Luckily, he's not a rule-lawyer type of person :)
The abilities are supposed to be beneficial, but should not discover new relationships the caster/manifester does not already know about-- i.e. the power can not act as an enemy detection ability (unless again the description says so).

So when manifester/caster does not know for certain that an encounter is a foe, best to have the power do nothing.I think, I'm going to ask the manifester's player which of the potential targets he considers foes whenever the power is about to retarget and then choose randomly between these.
This might be a useful way to handle similar issues with other spells/powers, as well.

Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out on this one! It's greatly appreciated. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhaelen 03-22-07, 08:34 PM	I've looked in the FAQ and searched the boards with google but couldn't find an answer to this (and some other aspects of the power): 1) It's clear that the manifester requires line of effect to the primary target of an Energy Current power. But how about the secondary target? 2) Does she require line of effect to it as well or is line of sight sufficient? 3) And/or does there have to be a line of effect between the primary and the secondary target? 4) Does the manifester get to choose the secondary target or is it determined randomly? 5) The description states the power will randomly retarget a new primary and/or secondary target if the old one falls below 0 hp. Does it also retarget if a target moves out of range? 6) Does it matter if line of effect or line of sight exists in later rounds when the manifester maintains concentration? 7) Is it possible to maintain concentration on the power if no targets are in range, i.e. waiting for potential targets to reenter the range of effect? I'd greatly appreciate any help on any of these issues.
Red12 03-22-07, 08:44 PM	Just my interpretation: 1. No, just need a line of effect to the primary. 2. Line of sight 3. Yes, there needs to be a line of effect from primary to secondary. 4. Chooses upon casting. 5. Yes, though one could argue against that. 6. Yes. 7. Don't know about that one. I don't think I would take issue with it, some might.
Jhaelen 03-23-07, 04:55 AM	Thanks for your interpretation Red12! Any other opinions/confirmations/objections?
Tsuul 03-23-07, 05:30 PM	7) I would start building up circumstance bonuses every 10 rounds after the first 10 rounds to negate the "I go on watch and concentrate on my Personal Area Defense System(P.A.D.S.)." But there are no rules for it.
Jhaelen 03-23-07, 06:44 PM	7) I would start building up circumstance bonuses every 10 rounds after the first 10 rounds to negate the "I go on watch and concentrate on my Personal Area Defense System(P.A.D.S.)." But there are no rules for it. Interesting take on this situation, thanks Tsuul! I'm currently inclined to err on the side of safety (i.e. disallow this completely), since the power is arguably one of the more powerful ones. Also, iirc, effects that target a creature and have a continous effect requiring concentration normally end if the target leaves the effect's range. I'm still interested in other opinions/suggestions! :cool: Especially the first four questions (determination of valid secondary targets) seem to be a grey area in the rules although there are other effects that use a similar mechanism (e.g. the chain lightning spell). The last three questions are more specific to this particular power. At least off the top of my head I cannot think of any similar effects. Anyone else care to share his/her thoughts on these matters?
ravidubey 03-23-07, 11:17 PM	My take... 1) It's clear that the manifester requires line of effect to the primary target of an Energy Current power. But how about the secondary target? Needs to be able to pinpoint (ie some kind of line of sight or other detection) both targets and needs line of effect to both (no walls of force in between). The target of the power is two creatures, and by definition targeted powers can't affect targets the manifester can't pinpoint. I can understand why it's a question, but IMO best not to change the targeting rules unless a spell description specifically says so. 2) Does she require line of effect to it as well or is line of sight sufficient? 3) And/or does there have to be a line of effect between the primary and the secondary target? Yes and yes by extension of previous answer. 4) Does the manifester get to choose the secondary target or is it determined randomly? Unless the spell says otherwise, the manifester gets to choose. That's how targeted spells work. 5) The description states the power will randomly retarget a new primary and/or secondary target if the old one falls below 0 hp. Does it also retarget if a target moves out of range? Technically it does not because the description does not say so. Targeted spells always need a target unless the description specifically says otherwise. 6) Does it matter if line of effect or line of sight exists in later rounds when the manifester maintains concentration? Yes 7) Is it possible to maintain concentration on the power if no targets are in range, i.e. waiting for potential targets to reenter the range of effect? No. Same answer as 5)-- targeted powers always need a target. This spell always needs a primary target chosen by the manifester unless (by variation specific to his power only) the primary target hits 0 hp. That's the only condition by which the spell keeps going, otherwise standard rules apply.
Jhaelen 03-24-07, 07:58 AM	Thanks a lot, ravidubey! Your reasoning makes sense to me. I am now pretty confident you got the correct answers to questions 1, 2, 4, 6, and 7. I am a bit less sure about question 3 since the description doesn't say the energy current cannot 'move around bends'. However one of the basic rules is indeed, if the description doesn't say so, it doesn't work that way (it's not a spread). It also fits to the answer to questions 1 and 2: A target that moves somewhere where it gets total cover from the manifester becomes an invalid target, thus ending the power's effect on it. I.e. the energy current between manifester and primary target cannot bend, so why should the current between primary and secondary target be able to do so? Question 5 is more difficult. While the power doesn't explicitly say so, it might have been intended to randomly retarget whenever one of the two targets becomes an invalid one, regardless of the reason (i.e. moving out of range, moving where there is no line of effect, falling below 0 hp, or completely evading the effect. The easy answer is, of course, the description doesn't say so, so it doesn't. One additional question just came to my mind: The description uses the word 'foe' when it explains how retargeting works. I assume this means, the power will not consider allies of the manifester a valid target. But who decides who is a foe and who isn't? Should I ask the manifester's player which creatures in range she considers to be foes for the purpose of this power? If so, would it be possible for the manifester to later change her mind? Examples: - The manifester's party is accompanied by an npc who at some point in the fight turns against the party. - One of the manifester's allies is dominated by an enemy and forced to turn against the party. - The manifester decides to turn against his former allies (either of his own will or under coercion) Phew, this sure is some tricky power :)
Lycanthromancer 03-24-07, 11:25 PM	If you're going to be making regular use of this power, and you're not a seer, try Expanded Knowledge: Fate Link, then go nuts.
ravidubey 03-25-07, 03:23 PM	Thanks a lot, ravidubey! Your reasoning makes sense to me. Glad you agree. I am a bit less sure about question 3 since the description doesn't say the energy current cannot 'move around bends'. However one of the basic rules is indeed, if the description doesn't say so, it doesn't work that way (it's not a spread). Think of it this way, the energy current can take almost any path within power range to reach its secondary target, no matter how circuitous, as long as the manifester maintains LOE and can pinpoint the secondary target. I can't imagine a case where the manifester has LOE and can pinpoint both targets but the Primary does not have LOE to the secondary target. If nothing else, the energy could loop back through the manifester's own space and arc to the secondary target. The range and targeting mechanics of the spell might be different than the wierd and arcing path the current takes. Question 5 is more difficult. While the power doesn't explicitly say so, it might have been intended to randomly retarget whenever one of the two targets becomes an invalid one, regardless of the reason (i.e. moving out of range, moving where there is no line of effect, falling below 0 hp, or completely evading the effect. The easy answer is, of course, the description doesn't say so, so it doesn't. I agree, unfortunately since it didn't say so it's best not to assume the case. This is a very powerful ability, so its description should be taken literally, IMO. One additional question just came to my mind: The description uses the word 'foe' when it explains how retargeting works. We come up with this same question all the time regarding Summon Monster, Astral Construct, Energy Missile, Dimension Swap, etc. Bottom line is that part of the magic is to "know" what the manifester knows regarding friends and foes. The abilities are supposed to be beneficial, but should not discover new relationships the caster/manifester does not already know about-- i.e. the power can not act as an enemy detection ability (unless again the description says so). So when manifester/caster does not know for certain that an encounter is a foe, best to have the power do nothing.
Jhaelen 03-25-07, 04:54 PM	@Lycanthromancer: Hehe, that's nasty :D I can't imagine a case where the manifester has LOE and can pinpoint both targets but the Primary does not have LOE to the secondary target.Well, there's only one configuration, I can think of, which may be rare but at least not entirely hypothetical ;) : ---+--- o 1\|2 o o o o o m = manifester o o o o 1 = primary target o o o o 2 = secondary target o o o o o m o o If the current can bend around the thin barrier that blocks LOE between the targets both can be affected; the distance would be exactly 15'. This is a very powerful ability, so its description should be taken literally, IMO.In case of doubt, that's my default as well. I'll talk it through with the kineticist's player, anyway. Luckily, he's not a rule-lawyer type of person :) The abilities are supposed to be beneficial, but should not discover new relationships the caster/manifester does not already know about-- i.e. the power can not act as an enemy detection ability (unless again the description says so). So when manifester/caster does not know for certain that an encounter is a foe, best to have the power do nothing.I think, I'm going to ask the manifester's player which of the potential targets he considers foes whenever the power is about to retarget and then choose randomly between these. This might be a useful way to handle similar issues with other spells/powers, as well. Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out on this one! It's greatly appreciated. :)