Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Katash 10-14-07, 07:00 AM	Okay, from another thread worked out that save or suck and no save and still suck powers also have the effect of saving pp as opposed to DD powers which chew pp to be effective. Can we make a list of the best Save or Suck powers that remain good at all levels without needing much in the way of augmenting. Cheers.:D
hovnarr 10-14-07, 04:21 PM	Well, you need to augment to increase the save so... Anyway, the best ones are: Reflex: Mass Ecto Cocoon (use the non-mass one before you get it, obviously) Will: Dominate (best suck effect) or Ego Whip (works partially on a save). You also have Time Hop for utility anyway, but meh. Fort: Depends. You will (should) always have Disintegrate for its utility uses (take down Force effects etc.) anyway, but my favorite is Fuse Flesh because it does well what a Fort save-or-suck should do well - kill casters. There's something to be said for Decerebrate and Crystallize too. Then you'll also want Assimilate for the +4 bonus, but it has little offensive use (use it to finish off the BBEGs thug so you're all buffed for the climatic final battle). In a level 20 build, these are what I'd have in my 32 powers as far as offense goes: SAVE OR SUCK *Ego Whip (Dominate if Telepath, maybe otherwise too) *Mass Coccoon (get it through feat, research or Chirurgery if you're not a shaper) *Fuse Flesh (Disintegrate, Time Hop, Assimilate - though these wont really be used for direct offense) DIRECT DAMAGE *Swarm of Crystals (against AMF/NPF, swarm type foes) *Energy Conversion (against weak foes to save PP) *Tornado Blast (if kineticist, maybe otherwise too) *(Su) Jet (pyro/cryohydra) for 36d6 (Su) damage (Metamorphosis+Transfer/Greater Metamorphosis) MELEE DAMAGE *Astral Construct *Metamorphosis (Greater if Egoist)
Katash 10-17-07, 03:27 PM	I Looovvvee disintegrate. I love hyperconscious more since it has the continual power feat which lets you repeat an unaugmented ray every round as long as you concentrate. Now THAT saves PP. But I'll hve to go thru EPHB and CPsi and Hyper to find all the Save or suck and especially the save and still suck powers. Cheers. (Why do I get the feeling Psions are underpowered?) A Dual progression TOB Prc would have been lovely. WOTC why didn't we get one? The Diamond Mind Prc was pretty good but had balance issues. Sigh......
ToastedAmphibian 10-20-07, 01:33 AM	Wait, what? Did you say that there is a feat in existence that lets you continualy re-manifest a power for as long as you CONCENTRATE? Where is this bloody thing at, and who thought this was a good idea? Had they ever looked at the skill tricks in complete scoundrel? Him, ill spend a feat and 2 skill points. Then ill cast disitegrate first thing when i wake up, and blast something every 6 seconds for the rest of the day. Fun times where had by all! (Or do I mean me?) Sorry, scatch that. MANIFEST disintegrate
Mercurius 10-20-07, 01:15 PM	The feat existed long before Complete Scoundrel, so I don't think Skill Tricks were taken into account, and it's not made by WotC, so I doubt Skill Tricks took it into account, either. That said, one of my favorite low level Save or Suck powers is Disable. By the rules, a failed will save just makes a character retreat/stand around doing nothing for several rounds. My psion used it to amazing effect in the World's Largest Dungeon, helping my party of 2nd level characters defeat four ogres in one encounter with liberal use of the power.
Friendlyfish 10-26-07, 04:29 AM	An analysis of the queer niche that psions fill in the world of save-or-sucks follows. A psion's save-or-suck list is mostly mind-affecting, and this is somewhat limiting. I will list some powers that I like. THOSE I LIKE: 1.) Disable was mentioned; that's pretty good. Let's compare that to the wizard's sleep and color spray. Cower vs. completely incapacitate. Points to the wizard as the low-level kings of offense. 2.) Brain Lock is actually good vs. one foe; downside is concentration, taking you out of the fight as well. No augmenting the DC is bad. This is on my list because it's really the first auto-kill power. If you got them locked, you got them dead. Discard later with psychic reformation when the DC becomes untenable. 3.) Id Insinuation - Confusion for many foes is not bad. DC augments. 4.) Psionic Blast - Stun is excellent and ends encounters. Lacks an augmentable DC which is meh. 5.) Crisis of Breath - A very nice DC-augmentable save-or-suck. 6.) Death Urge- Not bad with augmenting DC. 7+++.) Psionic Dominate - the Mother of all save-or-sucks for the psion. Once you have this, there's no reason not to use any of the others unless you really want to kill something, or, more likely, it's flat-out immune to mind-affecting...like so much is. 8.) Crystallize - Not mind-affecting, wherein lies the chief advantage, and importance, of this power. Worth taking expanded knowledge to get this for a telepath save-or-die psion. A solid analog to flesh-to-stone, with all the psionic advantages. 9.) Decerebrate - Not EXPLICITLY mind-affecting, although if it's immune to mind-affecting it likely doesn't have a brain. RAW, this works on anything alive - meaning no undead or constructs. Throw in a nitpicky DM however, and you might find that this won't work on plants or oozes either, leaving you effectively gaining vermin over mind-affecting and nothing else. 10.) Eyes of the Basilisk - A very nice 1/round flesh-to-stone power. 11.) Microcosm/Urge extermination - Not bad, a PW:kill option for the psion. 12.) Intellect Bomb - ostensibly only for ardents with the destruction mantle, this could be researched for a psion's 9th level powers. Untyped effect kills everything except for constructs. Sort of like a psion's implosion spells. Take this into epic levels to flat-out kill what you can't mind-affect. 13.) Psionic charm - I forgot to mention this one above, not bad at all; it's also a meat-and-drink save-or-suck for psions until psionic dominate comes into play. 14.) Ecto Cocoon, Mass ecto Cocoon - I mention these for completeness, as others swear by them. On one hand, they're reflex save, and they DO take foes out of play. On the other hand, they're shaper only (I prefer telepaths for save-or-suck focused psions) and I already take enough expanded knowledge feat choices. Also, they only remove the foe from battle momentarily; you'll still have to take care of them when they're out of the cocoon. I personally like to drop the foe when my powers take. THOSE THAT ARE A JOKE AND SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS: 1.) Psychic Crush - What the hell is this crap? A 5th level power with a 1st level DC. That said, if you do decide to take it and you want to crush retard barbarians and meatbeasts with it all day long, knock yourself out. 2.) Fuse Flesh - I hate to contradict an above poster, but I think fuse flesh sucks donkey. It requires range of touch, and touch for squishy, scrawny mentalists is a bad thing. Also, it allows two saves to achieve its full effect; that too is bad. I much prefer crystallize. 3.) Cranial deluge - This is a fun power, flavor-wise. However, save-or-get-damaged is an awful mechanic. After all, crystallize is a save-or-petrified. 4.) Crisis of Life - Basically, this is a decerebrate with limitations, or at best a crappy recall death. 5.) Recall death - This is mind-affecting; why wouldn't you use decerebrate instead, or just psionic dominate? THOSE THAT FOCUS INSTEAD ON ABILITY DAMAGE: 1.) Ego Whip - A tutelary psion power. 'Nuff said. It dazes and it deals unavoidable CHA damage. 2.) Larval Flayers - If you don't like dealing CHA damage with Ego Whip, go for the brain and the INT with pre-attached larval flayers. A wizard's worst nightmare; it's grappled AND losing spellpower. COMMENTARY ON PSIONS AND SAVE-OR-SUCKS: The variety and potence of a psion's save-or-die selection falls woefully short of the arcane caster's selection. Unfortunately, the large majority of psionic save-or-dies are mind-affecting, and many creature types, specifically undead, constructs, oozes, plants and vermin, are immune to mind-affecting effects. That being said, these five types aren't as populous as the remaining groups: aberrations, animals, beasts, (monstrous) humanoids, outsiders, elementals, dragons, fey, giants. So if you decide to focus on save-or-sucks as a psion, you'll get plenty of time to wield your mental wrath. In addition, the power of the psionic save-or-suck-master stems from psionic charm and dominate at higher levels, thus inflating the size of your warband with powerful beasts; whenever you defeat a foe, it doesn't die, but becomes fodder for defeating the NEXT foe, ad infinitum (or until a dispel magic ruins your party). SO: with these two caveats, one being that arcane save-or-sucks are better and more diverse and that psions are mostly limited to mind-affecting, is it not worth playing a psionic save-or-suck character? No, because the psion has a few MORE advantages. The first of these being repetition. A psion can keep hammering his save-or-suck at a foe until it fails its roll; with a wizard, a prepared spell is gone after being cast once, and a sorcerer is usually limited in slots as well. Arcanists can't hammer save-or-dies until one takes like a psion can. The second advantage is the power penetration and greater power penetration feats- this grants +8 to overcoming spell resistance on a regular basis, increasing the likelihood of a successfully implemented save-or-suck, when compared to the arcanist's +4. Third is metaconcert; with psionic friends nearby, you can boost your save DCs to sick levels. Fourth is overchannel; combined with vigor, you're outputting the suck at a higher DC than you deserve to. In my experience, a telepath psion focused on save-or-sucks will pretty much steamroller anything that's susceptible to its powers. At high levels, a menagerie of dominated thralls provides increased meatshield and party versatility. When the foe isn't susceptible to mind-affecting, that's why you took Astral Construct as an expanded knowledge feat, along with a blasting power like Energy Stun (or energy missile.) I might also recommend the Call Beast of the Id power from Hyperconscious, which I think should be adopted into official D&D. These are all viable builds in their own right, allowing the psion to more than contribute even in the midst of a zombie attack or myconid incursion.
AntiDjinn 10-27-07, 01:21 AM	There are a couple of "make the save, and suck anyway" powers to note. Ego Whip is often cited as overpowered because with augmentation you can routinely drop an uncharismatic grunt even if he makes the save. Even throwing it at its base cost over several rounds will eventually take down anything that has a Cha score and is not immune to stat damage or mind-affecting. Against someone using Damp Power as a defense, throwing a 1 dice Ego Whip round after round forces him to pay for his defense each time, and it still does 1 point of Cha damage each time. Inflict Pain is a debuff that is often overlooked, and is one of the few augmentable powers where it is generally better not to augment. If I have sized up an opponent and figure it will cost me 11 points to generate a DC that has a good chance of beating his Will save and inflicting a -4 penalty, then why would I bother when I can inflict an automatic -2 penalty for a mere 3 points? If he happens to flub the save and take -4, then it is a bonus, but a reliable -2 for base cost is all I need to count on. Power resistance may be an issue, but augmentation doesn't affect the manifester level check anyway. And where does he take the penalty? Ability checks, attack rolls (as in, that is 2 less points he is putting into power attack), and skill checks (hey, the Concentration check to manifest a power, get focused, or cast a spell is a skill check). The target is also under the effect of a second level distracting power even if he makes the save. At higher level, when it is no longer worth an action to inflict a -2 on a single target, it is still a good power for my Schism mind to toss around; no worries about the lower manifester level because it only needs to spend 3 points each time it uses the power. If your opponent is a Truenamer or one of the ToB classes, then open with Inflict pain for an automatic -2 on his all-important skill checks.
Katash 10-28-07, 12:44 AM	Have to mention even though it's from Hyperconscious the Brutalise Wounds power, fail your save and now every attack, spell, power you are affected by does MAXIMUM damage for the duration. Sorry, open up one the BBEG in round 1 and your party will love you for it. Cheers.
Zathress 11-10-07, 09:14 PM	Inflict pain is a great power, the real reason to augment it is not for DC but to effect multiple targets. One interesting power is crystal storm a 2nd level ray. It deals 2d4 slashing damage and on a failed fort save 1d4 con