Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldariel 03-14-08, 06:02 AM	Well, XPH specifically states that if my Schismed mind activated Temporal Acceleration, I would get the benefit and the second mind would be left outside. This left me wondering, how can a Schismed mind, which can only take Standard Actions, activate a Swift Action? Is there some Metapsionics I don't know of that can be used to make the casting time longer, or something that allows the Schismed mind to take Swift Actions?
Racinante 03-14-08, 04:07 PM	Generally speaking, anytime you can take a standard action, you can substitute a move action, a swift action, or an immediate action.
InkBlot 03-14-08, 04:14 PM	That's just not true. Standard actions can only be subbed for move actions. The part about a schismed mind manifesting temporal acceleration is an error.
Racinante 03-14-08, 04:47 PM	That's just not true. Standard actions can only be subbed for move actions. The part about a schismed mind manifesting temporal acceleration is an error. You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. Yes it is true. As for the rest Swift Action: You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. Therefore you can take a swift action using the schismed mind, however you are still limited to one per round, and you can choose not to do a standard action, or any action, during your turn. Immediate Action:Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time-even if it's not your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.Therefore you can take an immediate action using the schismed mind, however you are still limited to one per round replacing the swift action, and you can still choose not to do a standard action, or any other action, during your turn. What you cannot do is do two or more swift actions or immediate actions in any combination.
Eldariel 03-14-08, 07:04 PM	So wait, is the Schismed mind entitled to a Swift Action each turn then? Basically, if I've got a turn that's composed only of Standard Action (like the Schismed mind, or e.g. Celerity-turn), does that actually qualify me for a Swift Action?
AntiDjinn 03-14-08, 07:10 PM	If you allow the secondary mind to activate items then it can manifest Temporal Acceleration. A dorje, for example, is a standard action (or more, but the dorje rules don't allow for less) to activate. So even though TA is normally a swift action to manifest, using it from the item will be a standard action. If you allow for the fact that a dorje, which takes at least a standard action to activate, can contain a power that is normally a swift action to manifest (of all powers only Bestow Power is specifically barred from being place in an item) then you should allow for the notion that a standard action can subsume a swift action. Note, however, that I don't allow a secondary mind to use dorjes, or other in-hand items because Schism says it has no control over the body and can't take physical actions. It can't retrieve the dorje from a belt pouch and ready it for use. In fact, it can't even close the fingers around the dorje to keep it in hand. Holding onto an item would take attention from the primary mind. Other items require physical actions to activate: Tattoos need to be touched, Boots of Stomping require the uses to move his foot, etc., and should also not be of use to a mind that can't even wiggle a toe. Items that are activated by thought alone are probably fair game.
Lycanthromancer 03-14-08, 07:28 PM	A schism can use an item already to hand, which is why a dorje-specialist should always take EK: schism (or do research) if not a telepath. Using Dorje Mastery and Dual Dorje can make for an awesome combo when combined with schism, and since activating a dorje is a purely mental action, it's specifically allowed. Since the secondary mind is treated like a second character in your body, it can do anything you can do, so long as it's purely mental, so a full-round action to activate both dorjes should qualify.
CrimsonDeath 03-14-08, 08:59 PM	Therefore you can take a swift action using the schismed mind, however you are still limited to one per round, and you can choose not to do a standard action, or any action, during your turn. Therefore you can take an immediate action using the schismed mind, however you are still limited to one per round replacing the swift action, and you can still choose not to do a standard action, or any other action, during your turn. What you cannot do is do two or more swift actions or immediate actions in any combination. So, you can use a Swift action with your primary mind but not your Schism mind, or you can use a Swift action with your Schism mind but not your primary mind? In that case, there's not much point in having your Schism mind use a Swift or Immediate action... If you allow the secondary mind to activate items then it can manifest Temporal Acceleration. A dorje, for example, is a standard action (or more, but the dorje rules don't allow for less) to activate. So even though TA is normally a swift action to manifest, using it from the item will be a standard action. If you allow for the fact that a dorje, which takes at least a standard action to activate, can contain a power that is normally a swift action to manifest (of all powers only Bestow Power is specifically barred from being place in an item) then you should allow for the notion that a standard action can subsume a swift action. I don't have a copy, but I'm told the Rules Compendium clarified that a spell completion or spell trigger item takes as long to activate as it would take to cast the spell it stores. I'm not sure if this is explicitly extended to powers, but that would seem like a reasonable thing to do. Items that are activated by thought alone are probably fair game. But a dorje is activated by thought alone, unless I'm mistaken. Yes, you have to hold it, but holding an item you've already drawn isn't an action at all (not even a free action), and it's possible to draw an item without using it. Since the secondary mind is treated like a second character in your body, it can do anything you can do, so long as it's purely mental, so a full-round action to activate both dorjes should qualify. Except that the Schism mind is specifically restricted to one standard action per round only. It might be able to use the Begin Full Round Action and Complete Full Round Action standard actions (which are available only when restricted to a single standard or move action each round), but if you're using that to activate two Dorjes, you might as well just have it activate a dorje each round as a standard action.
Lycanthromancer 03-14-08, 09:12 PM	Schism is badly written; there's no telling what it can and can't do. So it's all a toss-up.
AzraelNoir 03-15-08, 02:32 AM	True, it is poorly written... However, the real argument is whether you can take a swift action in the time alloted for a standard action. If this is true, no matter what, you should be able to do so with schism; since it allots you a standard (mental) action. Now, I have made this argument SEVERAL times and its funny. Because usually whenever I make this argument people mostly disagree with me....I wonder why that is. Now, since the rule is not completely clarified; we must turn to logic. Logic dictates that it is perfectly reasonable to do something that takes less time if more time is alloted. So therefore, you should, by all means, be able to take a swift action as a standard action and thus take any swift (mental) action with your schismed mind. You cannot refute my logic and most of you have already agreed with this premise, so I beg of you not to argue against it. You know what I would like to hear for once (if there are any replys at all)...I would like to hear people say that I am right and my logic is infallible, because when you really think about it...it is. I hope we can end this "taking a swift action as a standard action" debate once-and-for-all right here. And hopefully people like Anti, and Lycanthro will support me on this (since they already appear to) because people actually seem to respect their opinions.
MnemonicSV 03-15-08, 02:38 AM	Items that are activated by thought alone are probably fair game. I agree for the most part, except for this bit on activating Dorjes: ...Additionally, to activate a dorje, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area to be affected. Unfortunately, that's something that the schismed mind can't actually do, at least if it's a dorje that affects a target or area. One could argue that the primary mind could aim the dorje for the schismed mind, but that's venturing into a grey realm of rules adjucation (Even if you're already holding the dorje). If one were to say that aiming the dorje was considered a physical part of the act of activating it as RAW suggests, then no, the schismed mind just can't do that. The schismed mind simply cannot move the dorje in any direction at all. On the other hand, if one were to think of that SRD quote as "flavour text" then there's nothing wrong with the primary mind (as a free action during his turn) aiming the wand in a general direction on his turn. DM fiat, as usual I guess. (Apologies to the OP for straying off topic.) EDIT: Now that I think on it, I would allow the primary mind to aim for the Schismed mind. For the simple reason that we already allow the primary mind to "aim his eyes" in order to grant line of sight to the schismed mind so it can target certain powers. Pointing a dorje in a general direction is probably no different.
CrimsonDeath 03-15-08, 02:59 AM	Now, since the rule is not completely clarified; we must turn to logic. Except that the rules are pretty clear. The rules tell you what you can do, and how. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't. If the rules don't say you can do it in a certain way, then you can't. And the rules don't mention performing a Swift action instead of a Standard action. So you can't. Maybe it isn't logical, but a lot of the rules aren't exactly logical.
Bedeverekm 03-15-08, 03:49 AM	Except that the rules are pretty clear. The rules tell you what you can do, and how. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't. If the rules don't say you can do it in a certain way, then you can't. And the rules don't mention performing a Swift action instead of a Standard action. So you can't. Maybe it isn't logical, but a lot of the rules aren't exactly logical. The rules are far less clear than you suggest. Many times, things that are clearly possible, or indeed, impossible, are not mentioned in the rules, and as such, absurd effects is the end result. As an example of how bad an idea it can be to follow rules blindly, I highlight the Geneva Convention, which states a soldier committing War crimes cannot use the defence "I was only following orders". So, International law recognises that following the instructions of someone who is meant to know better, is NOT always a good idea. Same for D&D. Rules are not perfect. Rules makers HAVE made mistakes, omissions, etc. Here's a quick thought experiment for you. A wizard has for some reason prepared ALL his spells for the day as quickened spells. All his low level spell slots he's put swift / immediate casting time spells in. As a result, ALL his spells prepared now require a swift or immediate action to cast. Would he then only be able to cast one spell a round, because all of them are FASTER to cast than normal? This clearly goes against the whole point of quickened spells, and indeed the whole purpose of swift and immediate actions. In such circumstances, I have always allowed my players to cast a spell that was prepared as a quickened spell, but if they have used their swift action, then it will STILL TAKE A STANDARD ACTION. This maintains game balance, as they are not getting an extra swift action, and it maintains the most important thing about the game. Fun. Seriously. The game is about having fun. If you take a rule intended to place a reasonable limit on power use in a round, and take that rule to stop people using the exact amount of power it says they should be able to, in a LESS efficient manner than it allows for, then you are imposing an extra limit on the players, in a way which IMO adds nothing to the game.
CrimsonDeath 03-15-08, 04:33 AM	As an example of how bad an idea it can be to follow rules blindly, I highlight the Geneva Convention, which states a soldier committing War crimes cannot use the defence "I was only following orders". So, International law recognises that following the instructions of someone who is meant to know better, is NOT always a good idea. And this is clearly on the same scale as playing a tabletop RPG. But still, to draw from your example since you brought it up in the first place: That is a rule. A soldier is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions from committing a war crime, regardless of whether a superior officer ordered him to do it. Here's a quick thought experiment for you. A wizard has for some reason prepared ALL his spells for the day as quickened spells. All his low level spell slots he's put swift / immediate casting time spells in. As a result, ALL his spells prepared now require a swift or immediate action to cast. Would he then only be able to cast one spell a round, because all of them are FASTER to cast than normal? This clearly goes against the whole point of quickened spells, and indeed the whole purpose of swift and immediate actions. Nevertheless, it's what happens. Note that the Wizard can use his standard actions to do other things, like activating magic items, making skill checks, or performing attack actions. And this isn't necessarily just a thought experiment. Knowing nothing but Swift spells is a reasonable tactic for a Gish, who's going to want to use his full round action to make weapon attacks. Also, for something that's not merely a thought experiment, consider the spell Arcane Spellsurge from Dragon Magic. It reads, in part, "You can't choose to ignore this effect; that is, you can't opt to cast a spell using its normal casting time. Thus, if all your spells normally have casting times of 1 standard action, they take 1 swift action instead, and because you can't take more than one swift action in a round, you won't be able to cast multiple spells per round while under the effect of arcane spellsurge." If it were normally possible to use a Standard action to activate a Swift action ability, those two sentences would be both superfluous and inaccurate. Of course, that's less of a problem for psionic characters because very few powers are Swift actions by default; most of them can only become Swift actions by using an augment or a metamagic feat. In such circumstances, I have always allowed my players to cast a spell that was prepared as a quickened spell, but if they have used their swift action, then it will STILL TAKE A STANDARD ACTION. This maintains game balance, as they are not getting an extra swift action, and it maintains the most important thing about the game. Fun. Which is a reasonable house rule, and one I wouldn't object to. But it's still a house rule, so it doesn't really have any bearing on how the rules work in general. Seriously. The game is about having fun. If you take a rule intended to place a reasonable limit on power use in a round, and take that rule to stop people using the exact amount of power it says they should be able to, in a LESS efficient manner than it allows for, then you are imposing an extra limit on the players, in a way which IMO adds nothing to the game. And in my opinion, it forces players to maintain a balance between Swift and non-Swift actions among abilities they can use. It's similar to the exercize of stacking bonuses of different types for the most desirable effect, on the grounds that bonuses of the same type typically don't stack.
AntiDjinn 03-15-08, 04:56 AM	Unfortunately, that's something that the schismed mind can't actually do, at least if it's a dorje that affects a target or area. One could argue that the primary mind could aim the dorje for the schismed mind, but that's venturing into a grey realm of rules adjucation (Even if you're already holding the dorje). That was my point: When it comes to in-hand items you can't even hold them without cooperation from the primary mind. If the mind is not functioning (such as when it is stunned) then everything in-hand is dropped, barring a locking gauntlet. And as far as actually pointing it, that is not going to happen. You should always be able to target yourself though. There are many other examples though: A secondary mind can manifest Claws of the Beast, but can't make claw attacks, can manifest Dissolving Touch, but can't make touch attacks. In many cases the effect simply waits until the one driving the hand gets around to using it.
AzraelNoir 03-16-08, 12:24 AM	Except that the rules are pretty clear. The rules tell you what you can do, and how. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't. If the rules don't say you can do it in a certain way, then you can't. And the rules don't mention performing a Swift action instead of a Standard action. So you can't. Maybe it isn't logical, but a lot of the rules aren't exactly logical. Again, this just seems like your interpretation. Can you tell me where exactly in the DMG or anywhere else it specifically states that "if the rules don't say you can do something in a certain way, you cant." Ive never seen this declaration. For instance, (and this may be a rather weak example, but you get my point) it does not specifically say under shapechange that I can transform into a rainbow rabbit (since no rabbit exists that is rainbow colored) but does that mean that I cannot. I think it would be rather reasonable to assume that since shapechange is a powerful enough spell to transform into a dragon I could be a normal rabbit with an odd coloration. It does not specifically mention anything in the shapechange spell about changing your color but I cannot see any reason why you shouldn't be able to.
CrimsonDeath 03-16-08, 12:49 AM	Can you tell me where exactly in the DMG or anywhere else it specifically states that "if the rules don't say you can do something in a certain way, you cant." Off the top of my head, I can't think of a place where it says that. But let's look at the alternative: "You can do anything the rules don't expressly forbid." I assume you're sufficiently creative to figure out why such a stance would be extremely problematic. Typically, the list of things a creature can do is far shorter than the list of things it can't do. (Pun-pun is the only exception that springs readily to mind...) For instance, (and this may be a rather weak example, but you get my point) it does not specifically say under shapechange that I can transform into a rainbow rabbit (since no rabbit exists that is rainbow colored) but does that mean that I cannot. I think it would be rather reasonable to assume that since shapechange is a powerful enough spell to transform into a dragon I could be a normal rabbit with an odd coloration. It does not specifically mention anything in the shapechange spell about changing your color but I cannot see any reason why you shouldn't be able to. From Shapechange: "This spell functions like polymorph, except..." From Polymorph: "This spell functions like alter self, except..." From Alter Self: "You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind." That clause from Alter Self is not overridden by Polymorph or Shapechange. So, when using Shapechange to become a rabbit, you can freely designate your fur, skin, and eye colors within normal ranges for a rabbit. So, yes, Shapechange inherits a method of changing your color from Alter self, and no, you can't transform into a rainbow rabbit.
Lycanthromancer 03-16-08, 01:34 AM	"Silly rabbit; that trick is for kids."