schism location charge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

schism location charge! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ninja_bob
02-10-08, 08:05 PM OK this has probable been asked before but i googled it and got nada so here it goes:

If in the first round of combat (or just prior to combat) I manifest schism

Then in the second round i have my partitioned mind manifest inconsistent location and my primary mind manifest psionic lions charge and charge/full attack....

Can I have my partitioned mind port me at the start of the third round (as a swift action) and manifest PLC again?

Or do I have to port with MY swift action and have my schism manifest the PLC?

I'm hoping the first is true (but thinking it it's not) because that means 6 less damage/ attack... not a world breaking amount I'll admit but it'll add up in drawn out combat and could mean I waste more pp in an extra turn or two of combat.

thats all thanks for any responses and such :)
Sithobi1
02-11-08, 01:50 AM Technically, Schism only gives you a standard action, so you cannot use something that requires a swift action.
ninja_bob
02-11-08, 12:34 PM That's even worse than I thought...
I knew it let me manifest powers and I didn't think it would let me control them like the way I wanted to port around but yes you are very correct. It won't let me use quickened powers at all:(

Is their any other way I can get to use PLC every turn? I thought it would be cool to be able to move away from what every I was attacking and charge it each turn. Every thing I can think of uses to many swift actions or takes a psionic focus each turn.
InkBlot
02-11-08, 01:12 PM You could get a mount, and take Ride By Attack. Then when you charge you'll keep moving afterwards.

You could take Leadership, and have your cohort teleport you around.
ninja_bob
02-11-08, 05:19 PM nice! I was just thinking of powers. Completely forgot about mundane answers.

next time I go shopping I'm buying a lance :)

ouch!...

thanks again both of you :D
AzraelNoir
02-11-08, 10:47 PM When you think about it, it does not make logical sense to not be able to use a swift action as a standard action. A swift action takes up less time and effort than a standard action. It is like saying you cant walk to the store in 10 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes to get there. You just walk slower.

I actually started a thread on this very subject a long time ago. People argued against it but there is nothing in the rules saying you cant, and logically, it would make sense that you can.

It also makes sense that you could theoretically take 2 swift actions in a round if one of them is taken by your schismed mind. Since the only thing limiting you from taking more swift actions in a turn is because they take a small amount of time and effort since your schismed mind is making the effort for you it shouldn't interfere with anything you would do. Basically, any actions your schismed mind takes do not interfere with any of your characters actions. It is the same as if two separate characters are taking separate actions.

Now, what I wouldn't allow is a schismed mind to take a standard and a swift action all by itself. If a schismed mind were able to take a full round action by itself that would make sense, but it cannot.
Sithobi1
02-11-08, 11:37 PM D&D's rules are exclusive: If they do not say that you can, then you cannot.
AzraelNoir
02-11-08, 11:53 PM Well its a logical houserule that you would be able to. It does not make sense that you cant do something that takes less time if given more time.
ninja_bob
02-12-08, 12:07 AM That's very true :D I can run from my front door to a town not far away in little under half an hour.... it almost kills me but I can do it. I can also decide to walk.
ninja_bob
02-12-08, 12:10 AM D&D's rules are exclusive: If they do not say that you can, then you cannot.

Having said the above... it's also true that I wouldn't want any one playing a fighter at my table saying "well it doesn't say I can't cast time stop infinite times a day!" :(
AzraelNoir
02-12-08, 12:19 AM Actually, what he said is not necessarily true. I would like to see text documentation of what he is saying. I don't remember reading that anywhere. It sounds like something that would be in the books (and makes sense) but it could just be him stating his opinion not the facts; like so many people do.
ninja_bob
02-12-08, 02:52 AM He's not making it up. I did some routing around for alternatives and came up with loads of things.... that didn't work. Mostly involving things like hustle or chain power.... while I was there i noted that schism does in fact say 1 standard action.

I feel the RAI would have been "manifest one extra power"
but RAW says 1 purely mental standard action each round starting after the turn you manifested schism

it's a shame to because that would have caused some serious pain :(

but I think I'm going to buy myself a good horse and flip a coin over using a psychic scimitar or a lance on account of the fact that psychic scimitar is a poor mans dusk blade substitute and a blatant psi-equivalent of the flame-blade (:confused: ) spell (1d8 +1per two CL fire damage touch attacks ect) and also lets me attack at range for some reason (but isn't fire damage hich makes it even better)....
AzraelNoir
02-12-08, 04:19 PM Its really not a question of what schism says, its what the rules say about using a swift action as a standard action. It does not say anything currently about this issue. I think it makes perfect logical sense. The reason they probably never mentioned it in the rules was because they assumed people would never want to. Honestly, in most normal situations who would want to take longer to cast a spell/manifest a power/whatever. However, doing so does not really break the game in any way. I consider it a very fair use of an action and untill I see official errata on the issue anyone in my game will be allowed to do so.

Also, psychic scimitar and dissipating touch is nice.
kalstrand
02-12-08, 06:19 PM The reason you can't use a Swift Action as a Standard Action has nothing to do with the time and effort of each action. It is because Swift Actions are balanced at 1/turn.
AzraelNoir
02-12-08, 07:00 PM Actually, it says...

"A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift aciton per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."

The way I read this, using a swift action is like using a free action that takes up a little more time thus you cant perform more than one in a turn since they take up a little more time than a free action. However, there is no reason whatsoever that you shouldnt be able to take what is essentially a free action in place of a standard action.

Its all about the effort and energy put forth.

A wizard is able to lower his CL when casting a spell, there is not much reason for doing so (save for a few special circumstances) but he is able.

So therefore, a Wizard, or Psion should be able to turn any spell or power that takes up less time into something that takes up more time.

I can drink a glass of water in about 10 seconds if I really wanted to; I am able. However, I can also drink it slower causing me to take 10 minutes to finish the glass. Its essentially the SAME thing.

Sorry, but it does say in the rules that if there isnt a rule for something you should make it up to the best of your logical ability (or something like that.) What I am saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense so unless you can show me a rule proving me otherwise or beat my logic then you cannot argue with this notion.
deadkoo
02-12-08, 07:13 PM Well said...

but sense when does logic and DnD go together?
Sithobi1
02-12-08, 10:55 PM Actually, what he said is not necessarily true. I would like to see text documentation of what he is saying. I don't remember reading that anywhere. It sounds like something that would be in the books (and makes sense) but it could just be him stating his opinion not the facts; like so many people do.
The very way the rules are written "You can do this, you can do that, you have the ability to do this..." implies that if it does not say you can, then you cannot.
Its really not a question of what schism says, its what the rules say about using a swift action as a standard action. It does not say anything currently about this issue. I think it makes perfect logical sense. The reason they probably never mentioned it in the rules was because they assumed people would never want to. Honestly, in most normal situations who would want to take longer to cast a spell/manifest a power/whatever. However, doing so does not really break the game in any way. I consider it a very fair use of an action and until I see official errata on the issue anyone in my game will be allowed to do so."It makes perfect logical sense that a level 20 fighter should have picked up the ability to cast spells as well as a level 10 wizard, since a level 20 wizard can fight as well as a level 10 fighter. Thus, until I see official errata on the issue, any fighters have the ability to cast spells as a wizard of half their level."

Its all about the effort and energy put forthIt does not say that the effort or energy required for a swift action is less than a standard action, and even if it were, they're not necessarily interchangeable. As an example, take a USB 2.0 bus, a USB 1.1 mouse, and a PS/2 mouse.
In this example, the USB 2.0 bus is a standard action. The USB 1.1 mouse is a move action, which works because the USB 2.0 specs specifically say that it is backwards compatible. The PS/2 mouse requires a completely different port, which uses simpler drivers and less power, but is still not compatible with a USB 2.0 bus.
AzraelNoir
02-13-08, 12:55 AM "It makes perfect logical sense that a level 20 fighter should have picked up the ability to cast spells as well as a level 10 wizard, since a level 20 wizard can fight as well as a level 10 fighter. Thus, until I see official errata on the issue, any fighters have the ability to cast spells as a wizard of half their level."

You really need to learn how to use logic properly, this is just.....poor.
Sithobi1
02-13-08, 03:05 AM The point there is that you're making a house rule and waiting for WotC to issue errata against it. They're not going to do it, because...it's a house rule.
AzraelNoir
02-13-08, 12:56 PM I believe this is an issue that needs clarity. Its still at least slightly ambiguous to me and the way that I read it, it makes sense. Yes, I would like someone more official to post here. Anything you guys say is merely speculation, same as me.

Also I believe that in the DMG it states that if something is ambiguous feel free to make up whatever you want as long as it makes logical sense.

At the very least, one should allow a feat that allows mages/psions to increase the casting time of their spells/powers. Its a pretty useless feat except in circumstances like this so I think its VERY fair; especially since feats are VERY precious.
ninja_bob
02-14-08, 11:57 PM Sorry for afk-ing the last few days...

I especially liked the comment about tenth level wizard fighters :) I am hopping that was sarcasm though :).

I had a few ideas of fixes although none were ideal... like magic items (read psionic items) that consume pp on use (but are use activated and thus free actions) or trying to squeeze a "slow manifesting" feat past the DM on the same principle that delay power feat.

I decided against the feat for slower manifesting though as I feel the one swift/immediate action per round was an obvious attempt at balancing the huge mistake they made in the epic level handbook (allowing casters to fire off 10-20 spells per round is just to evil) the way I see it if you have learnt how to manifest a power a particular way then that's how you have to manifest it (as a kind of "belief in how it works" kind of way) like how harry Dresden has to use blue play dough for his defensive magic because he was taught that blue = defense. he could use red play dough but he wouldn't believe it would work and wouldn't be able to work the spell properly (for those of you who don't read Tim Butcher just ignore my ramblings)

If you tried to manifest a power in a different way part of you would freak out and go "wait that's not right I'm meant to do it this way"

you could argue that feats are a method of learning minor ways to change how you work your miracles and yes that would work just the same in manifesting them longer than required but if we do that then it's just a matter of time before some one uses that feat to say "hey i still have a move action to manifest another power this turn" on top of the swift action and the schism action and the standard action.... that's just a bit too much for me...

So yeah long story short I think swift actions should stay swift actions (as much as it bugs me)

I figure I could develop an entirely new power ridiculously similar to another power with a longer manifesting time or some "boot's of lions charge" or something.... just some ideas i don't know if they work or which is the best fix though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ninja_bob 02-10-08, 08:05 PM	OK this has probable been asked before but i googled it and got nada so here it goes: If in the first round of combat (or just prior to combat) I manifest schism Then in the second round i have my partitioned mind manifest inconsistent location and my primary mind manifest psionic lions charge and charge/full attack.... Can I have my partitioned mind port me at the start of the third round (as a swift action) and manifest PLC again? Or do I have to port with MY swift action and have my schism manifest the PLC? I'm hoping the first is true (but thinking it it's not) because that means 6 less damage/ attack... not a world breaking amount I'll admit but it'll add up in drawn out combat and could mean I waste more pp in an extra turn or two of combat. thats all thanks for any responses and such :)
Sithobi1 02-11-08, 01:50 AM	Technically, Schism only gives you a standard action, so you cannot use something that requires a swift action.
ninja_bob 02-11-08, 12:34 PM	That's even worse than I thought... I knew it let me manifest powers and I didn't think it would let me control them like the way I wanted to port around but yes you are very correct. It won't let me use quickened powers at all:( Is their any other way I can get to use PLC every turn? I thought it would be cool to be able to move away from what every I was attacking and charge it each turn. Every thing I can think of uses to many swift actions or takes a psionic focus each turn.
InkBlot 02-11-08, 01:12 PM	You could get a mount, and take Ride By Attack. Then when you charge you'll keep moving afterwards. You could take Leadership, and have your cohort teleport you around.
ninja_bob 02-11-08, 05:19 PM	nice! I was just thinking of powers. Completely forgot about mundane answers. next time I go shopping I'm buying a lance :) ouch!... thanks again both of you :D
AzraelNoir 02-11-08, 10:47 PM	When you think about it, it does not make logical sense to not be able to use a swift action as a standard action. A swift action takes up less time and effort than a standard action. It is like saying you cant walk to the store in 10 minutes when it only takes 2 minutes to get there. You just walk slower. I actually started a thread on this very subject a long time ago. People argued against it but there is nothing in the rules saying you cant, and logically, it would make sense that you can. It also makes sense that you could theoretically take 2 swift actions in a round if one of them is taken by your schismed mind. Since the only thing limiting you from taking more swift actions in a turn is because they take a small amount of time and effort since your schismed mind is making the effort for you it shouldn't interfere with anything you would do. Basically, any actions your schismed mind takes do not interfere with any of your characters actions. It is the same as if two separate characters are taking separate actions. Now, what I wouldn't allow is a schismed mind to take a standard and a swift action all by itself. If a schismed mind were able to take a full round action by itself that would make sense, but it cannot.
Sithobi1 02-11-08, 11:37 PM	D&D's rules are exclusive: If they do not say that you can, then you cannot.
AzraelNoir 02-11-08, 11:53 PM	Well its a logical houserule that you would be able to. It does not make sense that you cant do something that takes less time if given more time.
ninja_bob 02-12-08, 12:07 AM	That's very true :D I can run from my front door to a town not far away in little under half an hour.... it almost kills me but I can do it. I can also decide to walk.
ninja_bob 02-12-08, 12:10 AM	D&D's rules are exclusive: If they do not say that you can, then you cannot. Having said the above... it's also true that I wouldn't want any one playing a fighter at my table saying "well it doesn't say I can't cast time stop infinite times a day!" :(
AzraelNoir 02-12-08, 12:19 AM	Actually, what he said is not necessarily true. I would like to see text documentation of what he is saying. I don't remember reading that anywhere. It sounds like something that would be in the books (and makes sense) but it could just be him stating his opinion not the facts; like so many people do.
ninja_bob 02-12-08, 02:52 AM	He's not making it up. I did some routing around for alternatives and came up with loads of things.... that didn't work. Mostly involving things like hustle or chain power.... while I was there i noted that schism does in fact say 1 standard action. I feel the RAI would have been "manifest one extra power" but RAW says 1 purely mental standard action each round starting after the turn you manifested schism it's a shame to because that would have caused some serious pain :( but I think I'm going to buy myself a good horse and flip a coin over using a psychic scimitar or a lance on account of the fact that psychic scimitar is a poor mans dusk blade substitute and a blatant psi-equivalent of the flame-blade (:confused: ) spell (1d8 +1per two CL fire damage touch attacks ect) and also lets me attack at range for some reason (but isn't fire damage hich makes it even better)....
AzraelNoir 02-12-08, 04:19 PM	Its really not a question of what schism says, its what the rules say about using a swift action as a standard action. It does not say anything currently about this issue. I think it makes perfect logical sense. The reason they probably never mentioned it in the rules was because they assumed people would never want to. Honestly, in most normal situations who would want to take longer to cast a spell/manifest a power/whatever. However, doing so does not really break the game in any way. I consider it a very fair use of an action and untill I see official errata on the issue anyone in my game will be allowed to do so. Also, psychic scimitar and dissipating touch is nice.
kalstrand 02-12-08, 06:19 PM	The reason you can't use a Swift Action as a Standard Action has nothing to do with the time and effort of each action. It is because Swift Actions are balanced at 1/turn.
AzraelNoir 02-12-08, 07:00 PM	Actually, it says... "A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift aciton per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take." The way I read this, using a swift action is like using a free action that takes up a little more time thus you cant perform more than one in a turn since they take up a little more time than a free action. However, there is no reason whatsoever that you shouldnt be able to take what is essentially a free action in place of a standard action. Its all about the effort and energy put forth. A wizard is able to lower his CL when casting a spell, there is not much reason for doing so (save for a few special circumstances) but he is able. So therefore, a Wizard, or Psion should be able to turn any spell or power that takes up less time into something that takes up more time. I can drink a glass of water in about 10 seconds if I really wanted to; I am able. However, I can also drink it slower causing me to take 10 minutes to finish the glass. Its essentially the SAME thing. Sorry, but it does say in the rules that if there isnt a rule for something you should make it up to the best of your logical ability (or something like that.) What I am saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense so unless you can show me a rule proving me otherwise or beat my logic then you cannot argue with this notion.
deadkoo 02-12-08, 07:13 PM	Well said... but sense when does logic and DnD go together?
Sithobi1 02-12-08, 10:55 PM	Actually, what he said is not necessarily true. I would like to see text documentation of what he is saying. I don't remember reading that anywhere. It sounds like something that would be in the books (and makes sense) but it could just be him stating his opinion not the facts; like so many people do. The very way the rules are written "You can do this, you can do that, you have the ability to do this..." implies that if it does not say you can, then you cannot. Its really not a question of what schism says, its what the rules say about using a swift action as a standard action. It does not say anything currently about this issue. I think it makes perfect logical sense. The reason they probably never mentioned it in the rules was because they assumed people would never want to. Honestly, in most normal situations who would want to take longer to cast a spell/manifest a power/whatever. However, doing so does not really break the game in any way. I consider it a very fair use of an action and until I see official errata on the issue anyone in my game will be allowed to do so."It makes perfect logical sense that a level 20 fighter should have picked up the ability to cast spells as well as a level 10 wizard, since a level 20 wizard can fight as well as a level 10 fighter. Thus, until I see official errata on the issue, any fighters have the ability to cast spells as a wizard of half their level." Its all about the effort and energy put forthIt does not say that the effort or energy required for a swift action is less than a standard action, and even if it were, they're not necessarily interchangeable. As an example, take a USB 2.0 bus, a USB 1.1 mouse, and a PS/2 mouse. In this example, the USB 2.0 bus is a standard action. The USB 1.1 mouse is a move action, which works because the USB 2.0 specs specifically say that it is backwards compatible. The PS/2 mouse requires a completely different port, which uses simpler drivers and less power, but is still not compatible with a USB 2.0 bus.
AzraelNoir 02-13-08, 12:55 AM	"It makes perfect logical sense that a level 20 fighter should have picked up the ability to cast spells as well as a level 10 wizard, since a level 20 wizard can fight as well as a level 10 fighter. Thus, until I see official errata on the issue, any fighters have the ability to cast spells as a wizard of half their level." You really need to learn how to use logic properly, this is just.....poor.
Sithobi1 02-13-08, 03:05 AM	The point there is that you're making a house rule and waiting for WotC to issue errata against it. They're not going to do it, because...it's a house rule.
AzraelNoir 02-13-08, 12:56 PM	I believe this is an issue that needs clarity. Its still at least slightly ambiguous to me and the way that I read it, it makes sense. Yes, I would like someone more official to post here. Anything you guys say is merely speculation, same as me. Also I believe that in the DMG it states that if something is ambiguous feel free to make up whatever you want as long as it makes logical sense. At the very least, one should allow a feat that allows mages/psions to increase the casting time of their spells/powers. Its a pretty useless feat except in circumstances like this so I think its VERY fair; especially since feats are VERY precious.
ninja_bob 02-14-08, 11:57 PM	Sorry for afk-ing the last few days... I especially liked the comment about tenth level wizard fighters :) I am hopping that was sarcasm though :). I had a few ideas of fixes although none were ideal... like magic items (read psionic items) that consume pp on use (but are use activated and thus free actions) or trying to squeeze a "slow manifesting" feat past the DM on the same principle that delay power feat. I decided against the feat for slower manifesting though as I feel the one swift/immediate action per round was an obvious attempt at balancing the huge mistake they made in the epic level handbook (allowing casters to fire off 10-20 spells per round is just to evil) the way I see it if you have learnt how to manifest a power a particular way then that's how you have to manifest it (as a kind of "belief in how it works" kind of way) like how harry Dresden has to use blue play dough for his defensive magic because he was taught that blue = defense. he could use red play dough but he wouldn't believe it would work and wouldn't be able to work the spell properly (for those of you who don't read Tim Butcher just ignore my ramblings) If you tried to manifest a power in a different way part of you would freak out and go "wait that's not right I'm meant to do it this way" you could argue that feats are a method of learning minor ways to change how you work your miracles and yes that would work just the same in manifesting them longer than required but if we do that then it's just a matter of time before some one uses that feat to say "hey i still have a move action to manifest another power this turn" on top of the swift action and the schism action and the standard action.... that's just a bit too much for me... So yeah long story short I think swift actions should stay swift actions (as much as it bugs me) I figure I could develop an entirely new power ridiculously similar to another power with a longer manifesting time or some "boot's of lions charge" or something.... just some ideas i don't know if they work or which is the best fix though.