Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 03:51 AM	Hey all. I have a player who will eventually be taking the Elocator class, and asked if Up the Wall would be at all useful. Pondering the idea of it, I delved into the boards, and wound up more confused than I began. Here's my question. Out of these scenarios, which one is correct? Supporting data for each in quotes. Also, I'd like official ruling, if possible. From the books, from a FAQ, from errata, etc. Not an "I think", or "Customer Service told me", heck, that's what led to the confusion in the first place. Scenario A: The Elocator can float within a foot of the ground. Any higher, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit. From the Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 143 "From now on, she can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking she glides along, unconcerned with the hard earth or difficult terrain. While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, she can make normal attacks and take normal actions, and move at her normal speed (she can even "run" at four times her normal speed). However, at distances higher than 10 feet, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round. While she remains within 1 foot of a surface, she can make melee and ranged attacks normally, but if she moves any higher, she incurs the penalties on melee and ranged attack rolls as if she were the subject of the psionic levitate power." Emphasis mine. All the bolded words imply that this ability is only useful above the ground, and the 'within 1 foot of a surface' does imply that it can be used within 1 foot a wall, but the 'higher' part kind of throws it. Scenario B: The Elocator can only float within a foot of a surface. Any farther, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit. This penalty is negated if the Elocator is still within 1 foot of a wall, or other surface. The Elocator cannot jump. From various threads about this question, supposedly customer service: "An elocator can scorn ANY surface, horizontal or vertical, not just flat ground. The elocator can "walk" and even "run" (move at 4x speed) on ceilings at no penalty. No climb checks or jump checks are necessary or even allowed anymore. In regards to balancing, the size or width of a surface must be sufficient enough to move upon without having to make a balance check otherwise it is not considered a surface you can "scorn" and you are effectively reduced to the 10 ft. speed. It is up to your DM to adjudicate how an Elocator functions vs. tripping as there are no provisions in the rules as written for tripping a levitating opponent. An elocator cannot fall. The Elocator can not even choose to fall. They cannot "turn off" their scorn earth ability. No free-falling or base jumping to get down quickly. The moment they are more than 1 foot away from a surface they start to levitate at the slower pace. But the elocator can just move down onto the walls of a pit, or the side of a mountain or cliff just fine. They do not go faster when traveling down, so they can't "ski" or "snowboard" at enhanced speeds. They move at their normal speed or move at 4x their speed (like a run) normally. If a surface is so broken or uneven that the Elocator cannot stay within 1 foot of the surface without going up and down dramatically, the DM will have to adjudicate a house rule as to how quickly and far the Elocator can move through such broken terrain. This includes bodies of water that have large waves or are extremely choppy. Keep in mind that an Elocator can still be doused by waves and the like while he's floating there. He does not automatically surf the swells beneath him. If he walks up a rising wave or swell and then it drops from beneath him, he can be left levitating higher than one foot above the current water level, at which time he is slowed to the levitation speed. At heights greater than 1 foot off the surface, the Elocator's speed is 10 rather than their normal speed, so he can use a move action to move 10 feet, hustle to move 20 feet or run at x4 speed (40 feet) as a full round action. The Elocator can become fatigued for "running" as if they were running normally." and "Actually, if you guys have read the current ruling by Cust Serv.. the Elocator cannot jump at all anymore. I just message them myself the other day complaining that not being able to jump seems really awkward, however, they stuck to the ruling presented in this thread. Seems like Elocators no longer are really effected by gravity anymore. They have shunned it and can link themselves to a surface in order to retain normal movement. Truely a Elocator always has subjective gravity." While the source is a bit iffy, as customer service has been wrong on issues in the past, the arguments make a lot of good points. It basically says that the whole 'ground' and 'higher' issue in the XPH is just bad wording. This basically means that Scorn Earth prevents the character from jumping anymore, lets them 'walk up walls' without the 'Up the Walls' feat, etc. etc. So, what do you guys think? Is there an official ruling? I'm leaning towards the second one, but I'd really like it if there was an answer by the Sage somewhere, or anything.
calronmoonflower 06-26-07, 04:12 AM	While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, she can make normal attacks and take normal actions, and move at her normal speed (she can even "run" at four times her normal speed). It looks clear enough to me.
Caterpillar 06-26-07, 08:34 AM	I won't be able to find the link for you, my apologies. I know you wanted something concrete, but I only have memory to go off of. A while back there was alot of fuss about the elocator's ability. After a while the final answer ended up being that they basically have permanent Psionic Levitate on at all times. They can't float using the 1' rule off of a wall, it's meant to be on a horizontal surface. They can even 'will' down the scorn earth ability to walk.
Fafnir 06-26-07, 08:46 AM	As far as I remember, the general consensus was you could use it to move at normal speed alongside walls and ceilings, but the basis of this ruling escapes me at the moment, and I can't check my books or the SRD.
Beefypistolsnipe 06-26-07, 09:24 AM	I had a similar issue when I played an elocater for a short while, but the rules all seemed very clear to me. The scorn earth ability basically allows the elocater to ignore surface irregularitys that would normally prevent him from running, charging, etc., as well as to traverse liquid obstacles with ease. It also gives him a minor flying ability (psionic levatate). The ability is not intended to be an "all surface sticker", it is a minor obstacle avoider. Therefore, any elocater with the up the walls feat may treat any vertical surface that he could move along as a horizontal surface for the purposes of scorn earth, but not otherwise. Scorn earth gets you a permanent psionic levitate, not a permanent spider climb. Also, in regards to surpressing the ability, every monster or class that has a supernatral ability (such as spell resistance) has the ability to surpress it when it would be helpful, and many of these abilities are not even active unless the monster is concious. I see no reason why the elocater would not have a similar capacity to surpress this ability; without it the character is actually more limited imo. I would imagine that a slain elocater under the customer service's ruling would continue to float around! :rolleyes: As a side note, I often find rulings like this to be simply "incorrect" because the rules and intentions behind them seem very clear to me. Something similar happened when an official ruling said that the mindblade had to reshape it every single time it was manifested...*barf*. :pbbbtt:
Tempest Stormwind 06-26-07, 10:20 AM	See the FAQ at the top of the forum.
Racinante 06-26-07, 10:30 AM	Scenario A: The Elocator can only float within a foot of the ground. Any higher, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit. Furthermore, she can float means that she can choose not to float as well. Beefypistolsnipe hit the nail on the head.
Nibbler 06-26-07, 11:07 AM	Up the Walls is useless for an Elocator: Discussion, including WOTC ruling http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615132
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 11:35 AM	A while back there was alot of fuss about the elocator's ability. After a while the final answer ended up being that they basically have permanent Psionic Levitate on at all times. They can't float using the 1' rule off of a wall, it's meant to be on a horizontal surface. They can even 'will' down the scorn earth ability to walk. Unfortunately, this doesn't help. It's just another 'customer service' style response that just directly conflicts with the other one I included. Also, in regards to surpressing the ability, every monster or class that has a supernatral ability (such as spell resistance) has the ability to surpress it when it would be helpful, and many of these abilities are not even active unless the monster is concious. I see no reason why the elocater would not have a similar capacity to surpress this ability; Yes, but in those cases, it usually says so in the description, or somewhere nearby. This is not the case for Scorn Earth. See the FAQ at the top of the forum. Ah, Tempest, I was hoping you'd show. I'm normally a big fan of your posts, their clarity and thought in good amounts, but in this case I am afraid to be at a bit of a loss still. Your FAQ alludes to both of the options up above. From what I understand, you basically say "It's supposed to be B, but use A for simplicity". So, unfortunately, that doesn't clarify anything. The FAQ was the first place I looked for an answer. :) Furthermore, she can float means that she can choose not to float as well. Sorry, I don't subscribe to the "If the rules don't say she can't do something, then she can!" school of thought. It needs to be explicit either way. Also, it says "can only", not just "can". This implies to me, more so, that she "can only" float within a foot of the ground, and "can not" do otherwise. Up the Walls is useless for an Elocator: Discussion, including WOTC ruling http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615132 Been there, read that. It's where I got the quote for Scenario B, and I didn't find anything concrete in there either. Essentially, I understand what it says. The problem is, the rules are not clear either way, and everyone seems to have a differing opinion. For RAW, I'm leaning towards Scenario B, because of the mention of surfaces instead of ground in some places. I'm welcome for anyone to show me otherwise, but, while opinions are useful, I'm afraid they don't help much in this matter. I've read plenty. :) Thanks for all the responses!
Racinante 06-26-07, 11:42 AM	Sorry, I don't subscribe to the "If the rules don't say she can't do something, then she can!" school of thought. It needs to be explicit either way. Also, it says "can only", not just "can". This implies to me, more so, that she "can only" float within a foot of the ground, and "can not" do otherwise. You misunderstood me. You quoted the rules as From now on, she can float a foot above the ground It does not say From now on, she floats a foot above the ground. There was no can only in your quote. Furthermore, you quoted she can make normal attacks does this mean then that she must make normal attacks? No, I'm certain she can choose not to make an attack at all. Therefore she has a choice as to whether she floats.
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 11:45 AM	You misunderstood me. You quoted the rules as From now on, she can float a foot above the ground It does not say From now on, she floats a foot above the ground. There was no can only in your quote. Furthermore, you quoted she can make normal attacks does this mean then that she must make normal attacks? No, I'm certain she can choose not to make an attack at all. Therefore she has a choice as to whether she floats. But there was a can only in my quote, at least the one you quoted. Scenario A: The Elocator can only float within a foot of the ground. Any higher, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit. Emphasis mine. I would agree with you on the second part. As it just says 'can' there, and not 'can only', then no, she does not have to make attacks. She may or may not. The part above though, the part you quoted in your initial post, does say 'can only', however.
Racinante 06-26-07, 11:59 AM	But there was a can only in my quote, at least the one you quoted. Emphasis mine. I would agree with you on the second part. As it just says 'can' there, and not 'can only', then no, she does not have to make attacks. She may or may not. The part above though, the part you quoted in your initial post, does say 'can only', however. Therefore my conclusion is that your Scenario A is flawed as there is no rules support for only. Scenario B is flawed for the same reason as well. I propose: Scenario C: The Elocator can float within a foot of the ground. Any higher, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit.
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 12:06 PM	Therefore my conclusion is that your Scenario A is flawed as there is no rules support for only. Scenario B is flawed for the same reason as well. I propose: Scenario C: The Elocator can float within a foot of the ground. Any higher, and his movement drops to 10' per round, and he takes penalties equal to Psionic Levitate on his to hit. My apologies, it seems I've made a bit of an error here (I must still be waking up). When I first looked at what you quoted of mine, I thought that to be what I quoted out of the book. On a second look, this is not the case, so my mistake. We agree on this, at least. Your Scenario C is the same as my Scenario A. I meant to have the 'can't turn it off' part be part of B, as that's where CS goes into detail on it, not part of A. I'll edit that part of my initial post so it's more clear.
Tempest Stormwind 06-26-07, 12:42 PM	If the elocator is within 1 foot of a surface, he's treated normally. If he's higher, use Psionic Levitate's drawbacks. Note that "a surface" technically includes walls. I left the answer as it was because the way it's written, it answers the question in such a way that DMs looking for guidance can figure out whether or not they want the elocator to be able to fight on walls and cielings as well as on land, or if they just want to treat it as an always-on levitate that ignores walls.
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 12:46 PM	If the elocator is within 1 foot of a surface, he's treated normally. If he's higher, use Psionic Levitate's drawbacks. Note that "a surface" technically includes walls. I left the answer as it was because the way it's written, it answers the question in such a way that DMs looking for guidance can figure out whether or not they want the elocator to be able to fight on walls and cielings as well as on land, or if they just want to treat it as an always-on levitate that ignores walls. Right now, I told the player that (eventually, as he won't be taking Elocator for another 5-7 levels or something) I'm going with option B. It shouldn't matter much, as there are a lot of out door encounters, but it's nice to know for reference. I don't *think* this way overbalances things, but I don't know. I have yet to encounter it. Has anyone tried either method, and can you give your experience?
InkBlot 06-26-07, 12:49 PM	Looks like this argument is pretty well covered. I just wanted to throw my hat in for option A. I don't let elocators float up walls. On a similar, but unrelated note, I don't let people with Up The Walls walk on the ceiling either.
Wizard Random 06-26-07, 08:11 PM	Hey guys did not Skip answer such a question recently? Long story short i believe since it is a SU ability the Elocater can turn it off as a standard action.
Karui_Kage 06-26-07, 08:52 PM	If Skip answered a question about it, I'd love to see the relevant article.
Kanachi 06-27-07, 10:52 AM	I'm playing an elocator at the moment (around level 13-14) and to be honest while being able to walk on walls and ceilings makes me look cool, its far from game breaking at this kind of level. Basically its a trick that lets me do something a full caster/manifester could do quite easily without requiring the use of a spell/power for free… its one in a huge line of PRC’s that do follow this example (sacrifice being as powerful as a wizard for being able to do something a wizard can for free, its like PRC making 101). Considering I can’t do half the things a similarly levelled wizard can do I don’t really see a problem here. I think a lot of dm’s worry about their dungeons being beaten by some guy who can run up the walls of their caves or over their lava pit… but really as said before any caster can fracture your dungeon railroading techniques with a simple spell so its not something a competent dm should really be worried about, learn to role with the punches. Besides if your elocator is being stupidly annoying simply have him move into an anti-magic zone while he’s hovering above a vat of acid or something… that will learn him. lol
Nibbler 06-27-07, 01:17 PM	Besides if your elocator is being stupidly annoying simply have him move into an anti-magic zone while he’s hovering above a vat of acid or something… that will learn him. lol Unless your elocator has Iron Heart Surge. Then so much for your AMF.
Lycanthromancer 06-27-07, 05:18 PM	Use your elocator as a human (or elan, or whatever) wheelbarrow! Glue a giant bowl to his back when he's lying face-down, then load him up with the heaviest stuff that the group can't carry. Then, just push him around like a hoverboard.
Racinante 06-27-07, 05:55 PM	:rofl:
theplaidknight 06-28-07, 01:23 AM	Ah, Tempest, I was hoping you'd show. I'm normally a big fan of your posts, their clarity and thought in good amounts, but in this case I am afraid to be at a bit of a loss still. Your FAQ alludes to both of the options up above. From what I understand, you basically say "It's supposed to be B, but use A for simplicity". So, unfortunately, that doesn't clarify anything. The FAQ was the first place I looked for an answer. :) I don't understand how that doesn't clarify anything.
Karui_Kage 06-28-07, 02:00 AM	I suppose it does, in that it says "B is the right way", but it doesn't say where it gets the information from, and suggesting A makes it seem like he wasn't so sure himself. I don't know, I'm probably reaching here. :) Either way, I decided to go with B for the time being, so the point is a little moot. Thanks, everyone, for all the help though!
Nykidemus 07-02-07, 06:58 AM	Right now, I told the player that (eventually, as he won't be taking Elocator for another 5-7 levels or something) I'm going with option B. It shouldn't matter much, as there are a lot of out door encounters, but it's nice to know for reference. I don't *think* this way overbalances things, but I don't know. I have yet to encounter it. Has anyone tried either method, and can you give your experience? B option is pretty similar to slippers of spider climb. Hardly ridiculous, but I rather like the flavor of it just being groundbound.