Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StruckingFuggle 09-15-07, 04:03 PM	I'm almost sure in reading it that it does; and I'm sure I've read other threads on the subject here, even if a search doesn't turn anything up. But the wording is a bit ambiguous. It never really says so. So I turn to the experts here to make sure. And if that is how it works, can you point out how the rules text does say so? Also, if it works like that, does it let you walk on surfaces that aren't 'flat' / are ceilings, walls, etc to other people, or just hover near them? And as a flavor question, if you're 'standing' on the ceiling using it as a floor, how does your possessions 'hang'? Towards everyone else's floor or their ceiling?
CrimsonDeath 09-15-07, 05:29 PM	And as a flavor question, if you're 'standing' on the ceiling using it as a floor, how does your possessions 'hang'? Towards everyone else's floor or their ceiling? I suppose it depends on how you are oriented. Scorn Earth never states that your feet have to be within a foot of a flat surface.
Yeti_Abitibi 09-15-07, 06:16 PM	From my understanding of the Scorn Earth power is that you levitate above the ground or any other surface. So you could walk on a liquid, over caltrops or something similar. I don't think it ignores gravity though. If you want to walk on ceilings/walls etc... you need something like the "Up the Walls" feat, a spider climb or something similar.
StruckingFuggle 09-15-07, 09:26 PM	From my understanding of the Scorn Earth power is that you levitate above the ground or any other surface. So you could walk on a liquid, over caltrops or something similar. But that's the kicker, innit? Walls and ceilings are (generally) flat surfaces. It doesn't say "floor".
yrogerg 09-16-07, 01:38 AM	But that's the kicker, innit? Walls and ceilings are (generally) flat surfaces. It doesn't say "floor". It says "above", though. Looking at the entire text in context, it pretty obviously means that the user is intended to be at a higher altitude than the surface they're gliding 'above' and 'higher than'. Seriously, if you managed to walk "above" the ceiling, the natural interpretation is that you're somewhere on the roof or in the attic.
sooperspook 09-16-07, 02:09 AM	Actually it was answered in one of those Sage Answers. yes, you can 'walk' on the ceiling. In fact, you can even sleep on the ceiling. As for your possesions , I'd say they hang in whichever direction gravity is pulling. Another fun tidbit is, you can never fall. As soon as you get within 2' of a surface, you slow down and never actually hit the ground. Also in te same Sage answer thing.
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-16-07, 03:37 AM	Actually it was answered in one of those Sage Answers. yes, you can 'walk' on the ceiling. In fact, you can even sleep on the ceiling. As for your possesions , I'd say they hang in whichever direction gravity is pulling. Another fun tidbit is, you can never fall. As soon as you get within 2' of a surface, you slow down and never actually hit the ground. Also in te same Sage answer thing. Wait, seriously? Link me.
carnivore 09-16-07, 08:20 AM	from the FAQ here: D&D® Frequently Asked Questions Version 3.5: Date Updated 07/13/07 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq) Does the scorn earth class feature of the elocator prestige class (Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 142) allow her to avoid taking damage from a fall? Actually, the character wouldn’t fall at all. An elocator is effectively in a constant state of levitation (as the psionic levitate power). An elocator could walk out over an open pit without falling (though her speed would be reduced to 10 feet per round). Even a trap door opening beneath her feet wouldn’t drop her—she’d just hang in space, levitating as if she’d intentionally stepped out over the pit. The class feature suggests strongly that its effect is created voluntarily: “she can float a foot above the ground” (EPH 143, italics added). Thus, if for some reason she didn’t have this effect active, she’d be as vulnerable to falling as anyone else. As a supernatural ability, it requires a standard action to activate scorn earth, so she probably wouldn’t have time to save herself from a (short) fall. but it doesnt mention walking on walls or sleeping on the ceiling ...... in fact the Elocator is just as affected as anyone else by Gravity ...... :D
yrogerg 09-16-07, 09:06 AM	from the FAQ here: D&D® Frequently Asked Questions Version 3.5: Date Updated 07/13/07 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq) but it doesnt mention walking on walls or sleeping on the ceiling ...... in fact the Elocator is just as affected as anyone else by Gravity ...... :D It's worth pointing out that that's a different interpretation than sooperspook gave: it's not that they're immune to falling damage, it's just that they don't fall under normal conditions.
yrogerg 09-16-07, 09:12 AM	Actually it was answered in one of those Sage Answers. yes, you can 'walk' on the ceiling. In fact, you can even sleep on the ceiling. As for your possesions , I'd say they hang in whichever direction gravity is pulling. Another fun tidbit is, you can never fall. As soon as you get within 2' of a surface, you slow down and never actually hit the ground. Also in te same Sage answer thing. A quick search of the Wizards site shows no relevant matches for "scorn earth" or "elocator", so it's not listed anywhere in the current Sage Advice archives. *Can* you provide a link? It wouldn't be the first time the Sage as contradicted himself (cf the FAQ), but it would be nice to know whether that's what's going on here or not.
StruckingFuggle 09-16-07, 02:41 PM	It says "above", though. Looking at the entire text in context, it pretty obviously means that the user is intended to be at a higher altitude than the surface they're gliding 'above' and 'higher than'. Seriously, if you managed to walk "above" the ceiling, the natural interpretation is that you're somewhere on the roof or in the attic. Natural interpretation for people who can only walk on the floor. If all surfaces are validly 'floors', than floating a foot above your floor / my floor is no different than floating a foot 'above' your ceiling / my floor. Because towards my feet is down, it's 'a foot below' for you, but it becomes 'a foot above' for me, y'know?
CrimsonDeath 09-16-07, 03:09 PM	Maybe Elocators should make life easier for everyone and just all move to Limbo. (Most of them ought to know Plane Shift, after all.)
necrosnoop110 09-16-07, 03:18 PM	Just do a handstand within one body length of the ceiling. :D
yrogerg 09-16-07, 11:03 PM	Natural interpretation for people who can only walk on the floor. If all surfaces are validly 'floors', than floating a foot above your floor / my floor is no different than floating a foot 'above' your ceiling / my floor. Because towards my feet is down, it's 'a foot below' for you, but it becomes 'a foot above' for me, y'know? Except when you consider, y'know, *gravity*. Then, "Up" tends to be somewhat non-relative. Seriously. Up means the same thing to creatures that can fly as it does to creatures that can swim as it does to land-bound creatures. Not being able to float in mid-air has nothing to do with it. Look at the planar traits: the only one where individuals get to *choose* which way "down" is in Subjective Directional Gravity. Otherwise, up, down, above, and below, are definite, objective directions, even if you can fly, levitate, or do handstands.
sijigs 09-16-07, 11:34 PM	It lets you scorn earth. Not scorn ceiling/wall. :P (my 2c's anyhow)
Artector 09-17-07, 12:02 AM	It lets you scorn earth. Not scorn ceiling/wall. :P (my 2c's anyhow) By that logic you can't Scorn Water (despite being an example) Scorn Floor, Scorn Roof.....etc. Only Scorn Earth (IE dirt/rock)
sijigs 09-17-07, 01:33 AM	By that logic you can't Scorn Water (despite being an example) Scorn Floor, Scorn Roof.....etc. Only Scorn Earth (IE dirt/rock) Maybe it's referring to the direction where the scorning would be pointing towards?? ->>> earth? Hahaha.. I don't know. But I would say no to ceiling and walls.
StruckingFuggle 09-17-07, 02:00 AM	Except when you consider, y'know, *gravity*. Then, "Up" tends to be somewhat non-relative. Unless you consider "Scorn Earth" to be "Scorn Gravity" or something. NEW QUESTION: Would it be overpowered to let Scorn Earth work like that?
Sagetim 09-17-07, 02:16 AM	Unless you consider "Scorn Earth" to be "Scorn Gravity" or something. NEW QUESTION: Would it be overpowered to let Scorn Earth work like that? not really. But to answer the old question: I do remember the Sage advice being along the lines of 'the scorner cannot fall, unless their scorn earth is turned off, which is impossible. In fact, scorn earth is active constantly. Meaning that never again can the person touch the freaking ground. They drop a coin, they'd better well have some damn long arms or something. I'll look up the place where I found it. Then edit this post. Note: the scorner could probably weigh themselves to the ground until they have enough weight carried that they cannot move. At which point they would be forced to be on the ground...but then they wouldn't be able to move...so you see the problem there.
CrimsonDeath 09-17-07, 03:52 AM	Maybe it's referring to the direction where the scorning would be pointing towards?? ->>> earth? I love the idea of scorning in a general direction. I may try it sometime.
Nom 09-17-07, 04:11 AM	I'd say "no, it won't let you walk on the ceiling". (1) "can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking she glides along ..." It's quite clearly viewed as a substitute for normal walking, not for spider climb. (2) "within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid" I put it that "flat" here is a synonym with "horizontal", not merely "planar". This (as has already been mentioned) is reinforced by the wording "more than 1 foot above ...". So if it's not "flat to other people", all you can do is hover near it, subject to the levitation / 10 ft. movement rules.
yrogerg 09-17-07, 07:05 AM	Unless you consider "Scorn Earth" to be "Scorn Gravity" or something. Umm, no. The Gravity planar trait *defines* down for you. In subjective directional gravity, it leaves it for individual characters to define down as their own whim, but every other gravity trait *tells you* which way down is (as a general rule, except for Objective Directional Gravity, it's *towards the main surface of the plane*, and up is *away from the main surface from the plane, usually in the direction of the sky*). Down is *definitely not* defined as "the direction below my feet," because if it were, then I could "fall" to the ceiling by doing a mundane handstand. See how that's problematic? As far as whether it's overpowered or not, I dunno. But since it's already a free, at-will, Levitate effect that specifically says what happens if you're more than one foot away from the "ground", I'm less than inclined to let someone move their full speed next to a wall or ceiling. At that point, it's both a free, at-will Levitate effect and a free, at-will, more powerful version of Spider Climb. Definitely not what the designers intended. @Sagetim: The current FAQ opine that an Elocator *can* turn off Scorn Earth, as reinforced by the word "can" in ability description. It's free, at-will, and infinite duration, but the Elocator can suppress it. Personally, I'm kinda okay with this, because otherwise it'd make a lot of roleplaying encounters much more difficult.
Vloorshad 09-17-07, 09:21 AM	Once upon a time many moons back we got an official answer on the boards that, apparently, never made it to the FAQ. The answer was that "a flat surface" meant exactly that: "a flat surface". Seeing how cliffs, ceilings, walls, et al can all be flat surfaces, the Elocator is able to move at full speed over any of them. In the same stroke it was stated that Scorn Earth cannot be "turned off". As an aside, allowing all flat surfaces to be scorned goes along with the Elocator's flavor of making direction relative. While up and down may be fixed for most of us, and even flyers, the Elocator's abilities all go towards making it relative, and the only thing that matters is distance from something. Alas, I don't have the link for the thread that included this, and I'm sure that it's been pruned by now.
Yeti_Abitibi 09-17-07, 12:14 PM	Once upon a time many moons back we got an official answer on the boards that, apparently, never made it to the FAQ. The answer was that "a flat surface" meant exactly that: "a flat surface". Seeing how cliffs, ceilings, walls, et al can all be flat surfaces, the Elocator is able to move at full speed over any of them. So by that logic, and elocator cannot float over water on a windy day right? 'Cause once the wind kicks up, the water is no longer "flat", his power no longer applies and he falls in the water. As a DM, I could have a lot of fun with that.:D Also, how do you define flat? Is a gravel road "flat enough", what about a grassy plain? Rolling hills aren't very flat are they? Defining the power with respect to "Any flat surface" may let you walk on ceilings (though stucko isn't very flat) but most outdoor terrains wouldn't qualify.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-07, 12:24 PM	Here is something from an old thread on Elocaters (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-428075): *Sigh*... I am the Elocater, more or less. I have tried to find out a billion things about them. Here's some help for you folks... About 5/6ths of the way down this page (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=615132) is this post by Northguard... “I just got this official response from Wotc gaming support: An elocator can scorn ANY surface, horizontal or vertical, not just flat ground. The elocator can "walk" and even "run" (move at 4x speed) on ceilings at no penalty. No climb checks or jump checks are necessary or even allowed anymore. In regards to balancing, the size or width of a surface must be sufficient enough to move upon without having to make a balance check otherwise it is not considered a surface you can "scorn" and you are effectively reduced to the 10 ft. speed. It is up to your DM to adjudicate how an Elocator functions vs. tripping as there are no provisions in the rules as written for tripping a levitating opponent. An elocator cannot fall. The Elocator can not even choose to fall. They cannot "turn off" their scorn earth ability. No free-falling or base jumping to get down quickly. The moment they are more than 1 foot away from a surface they start to levitate at the slower pace. But the elocator can just move down onto the walls of a pit, or the side of a mountain or cliff just fine. They do not go faster when traveling down, so they can't "ski" or "snowboard" at enhanced speeds. They move at their normal speed or move at 4x their speed (like a run) normally. If a surface is so broken or uneven that the Elocator cannot stay within 1 foot of the surface without going up and down dramatically, the DM will have to adjudicate a house rule as to how quickly and far the Elocator can move through such broken terrain. This includes bodies of water that have large waves or are extremely choppy. Keep in mind that an Elocator can still be doused by waves and the like while he's floating there. He does not automatically surf the swells beneath him. If he walks up a rising wave or swell and then it drops from beneath him, he can be left levitating higher than one foot above the current water level, at which time he is slowed to the levitation speed. At heights greater than 1 foot off the surface, the Elocator's speed is 10 rather than their normal speed, so he can use a move action to move 10 feet, hustle to move 20 feet or run at x4 speed (40 feet) as a full round action. The Elocator can become fatigued for "running" as if they were running normally.”
Yeti_Abitibi 09-17-07, 01:43 PM	I agree that an Elocator can scorn any surface, but is he able to scorn a surface he would not otherwise be able to walk on if it weren't for Scorn Earth? I think that in order to "scorn" a wall or ceiling the Elocator needs to have the ability to move on those surfaces normally (when he is not "scorning"). "Up the Wall" feat can do this, a spider climb effect (spell or item) is another option.
Jaid 09-17-07, 03:06 PM	I agree that an Elocator can scorn any surface, but is he able to scorn a surface he would not otherwise be able to walk on if it weren't for Scorn Earth? I think that in order to "scorn" a wall or ceiling the Elocator needs to have the ability to move on those surfaces normally (when he is not "scorning"). "Up the Wall" feat can do this, a spider climb effect (spell or item) is another option. but we know for a fact that the elocater is able to scorn water, which he most likely couldn't walk on before either.
yrogerg 09-17-07, 05:49 PM	Here is something from an old thread on Elocaters (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-428075): And what "offical" resource did this response come from? Did Northguard say? It kinda sounds like this came from Custserv, which would explain why it's contradicted by the FAQ (insofar as whether an Elocator can "turn off" Scorn Earth). Custserv's unreliability and lack of self-consistency WRT rules questions is pretty infamous, and most people around these parts are fairly reluctant to consider their answers "official". The common reference to custserve among boards veterans is, "Ask Custserv the question ten times, each with a slightly different phrasing, and then take the majority ruling," if you're looking for an "official" answer from them.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-07, 06:09 PM	And what "offical" resource did this response come from? Did Northguard say? It kinda sounds like this came from Custserv, which would explain why it's contradicted by the FAQ (insofar as whether an Elocator can "turn off" Scorn Earth). Custserv's unreliability and lack of self-consistency WRT rules questions is pretty infamous, and most people around these parts are fairly reluctant to consider their answers "official". The common reference to custserve among boards veterans is, "Ask Custserv the question ten times, each with a slightly different phrasing, and then take the majority ruling," if you're looking for an "official" answer from them.I didn't say I agreed with it, or anyone else should. Just throwing fuel on the fire. ;) The quote in my first post said it was from "Wotc gaming support", which I'm sure means Customer Service. The section I quoted also provids a link to what I think is the original thread where this was posted in.
sijigs 09-17-07, 08:15 PM	I love the idea of scorning in a general direction. I may try it sometime. Hahaha. How about scornying.. or scornicizing..
yrogerg 09-17-07, 08:29 PM	I didn't say I agreed with it, or anyone else should. Just throwing fuel on the fire. ;) The quote in my first post said it was from "Wotc gaming support", which I'm sure means Customer Service. The section I quoted also provids a link to what I think is the original thread where this was posted in. Of course it's Custserv. Very few other "official sources" that answer direct questions like this wouldn't bother to *read the FAQ* before giving an answer. Unfortunately, another one is Skip Williams. It sometimes creates a pretty lousy situation where the Sage says one thing, Skip Williams says another, Custserv says either, depending on what time of day it is, and all of them seem to contradict a plain reading of the RAW.
sooperspook 09-17-07, 09:15 PM	from the FAQ here: D&D® Frequently Asked Questions Version 3.5: Date Updated 07/13/07 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq) Quote: Originally Posted by FAQ,page 28 Does the scorn earth class feature of the elocator prestige class (Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 142) allow her to avoid taking damage from a fall? Actually, the character wouldn’t fall at all. An elocator is effectively in a constant state of levitation (as the psionic levitate power). An elocator could walk out over an open pit without falling (though her speed would be reduced to 10 feet per round). Even a trap door opening beneath her feet wouldn’t drop her—she’d just hang in space, levitating as if she’d intentionally stepped out over the pit. The class feature suggests strongly that its effect is created voluntarily: “she can float a foot above the ground” (EPH 143, italics added). Thus, if for some reason she didn’t have this effect active, she’d be as vulnerable to falling as anyone else. As a supernatural ability, it requires a standard action to activate scorn earth, so she probably wouldn’t have time to save herself from a (short) fall. but it doesnt mention walking on walls or sleeping on the ceiling ...... in fact the Elocator is just as affected as anyone else by Gravity ...... :D The parts I bolded are the important bits. If standing over an open hole doesn't make you fall, standing on the ceiling doesn't either. Constanly levitating also means you could fall asleep at any height and not fall since you have to consciously deactivate scorn earth for gravity to pull you down.
yrogerg 09-17-07, 09:24 PM	The parts I bolded are the important bits. If standing over an open hole doesn't make you fall, standing on the ceiling doesn't either. Constanly levitating also means you could fall asleep at any height and not fall since you have to consciously deactivate scorn earth for gravity to pull you down. It's not really a question of whether you could hang in mid-air with Scorn Earth, though, it's a question of whether you can move your speed if you're within 1 foot of a wall or ceiling. Which is a very different issue. At any rate, the issue of whether you can sleep in mid-air strikes me as largely irrelevant to most gameplay (unless you're knocked unconscious while "climbing" with this power, But. That. Would. Work. Against. Anyone.), and the rules do seem largely silent on the issue. I'd say it's up to individual DMs.
Moosh Nailo 09-17-07, 09:38 PM	Reading the description for Scorn Earth, the word above does not seem to be used "officially". More descriptive than rules-y. And a couple of sentences further down the words "within 1 foot" are repeated... nay, emphasized. "While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid,... blah blah blah... However, at distances higher than 1 foot above any surface, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round. While she remains within 1 foot of a surface,... blah blah blah" I am copying directly from the book, which is mere inches from my face. The blah blah blah is them talking about you being allowed to attack and such if you remain within one foot of your flat surface. "within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid" basically asks you to glide right up the bloody ceiling! It would have been ridiculously easy to say ground rather than flat surface of any solid or liquid if they in fact meant the ground. Not once do they even mention the word ground in the rules, past the initial description "At level 1 an elocator's feet lift from the ground" This ability fits the idea of the elocator perfectly. Don't be a tyrannical DM and can the ability because you're (me included) too lazy to be more creative in your dungeon-crafting and making allowances so the character of an otherwise-not-particularly-optimized class can shine too! ...Victory!
Vloorshad 09-17-07, 10:35 PM	So by that logic, and elocator cannot float over water on a windy day right? 'Cause once the wind kicks up, the water is no longer "flat", his power no longer applies and he falls in the water. As a DM, I could have a lot of fun with that.:D Also, how do you define flat? Is a gravel road "flat enough", what about a grassy plain? Rolling hills aren't very flat are they? Defining the power with respect to "Any flat surface" may let you walk on ceilings (though stucko isn't very flat) but most outdoor terrains wouldn't qualify. Congrats, you managed to create the equivalent of "rough terrain" for the Elocator. Considering they're still doing better than most of the rest of the party short a Fly spell or power, I'd say they won't complain too much. However, don't be **** about what is and isn't considered a "flat surface". Use your best judgement, but let the player have some fun with the class. Also, take into account the previously mentioned ruling on balance checks. If the surface is wide enough to go without, or the Elocator passes his balance check, let him scorn it. If not, 10'/round.
yrogerg 09-17-07, 10:40 PM	Reading the description for Scorn Earth, the word above does not seem to be used "officially". More descriptive than rules-y. And a couple of sentences further down the words "within 1 foot" are repeated... nay, emphasized. "While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid,... blah blah blah... However, at distances higher than 1 foot above any surface, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round. While she remains within 1 foot of a surface,... blah blah blah" Definition of selective reading, right there. There's no real grounds to dismisses some of the text as "flavor" and then overemphasize others, here. I'm not saying that the ability isn't poorly worded, but the intent still remains rather clear. I imagine what happened when this feat was being designed was somewhat like this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html That is to say, the designer thought (probably rightly) that players would focus on the word "ground", and thus misunderstand this ability, which is clearly intended to work on earth, city streets, water, tree limbs, and many others. So, he used a more complicated phrasing that, it ends up, leaves some gaping loopholes, and becomes even *more* focused-on than the problem term itself. Simply put, though, a plain reading of the entire text, absent any no-gravity or subjective-gravity "Down is a completely arbitrary direction!" nonsense, would be that it allows you to float above the ground and similar surfaces, and that if you're to far *above* the ground or similar surfaces, you slow down. Yes, it's possible to interpret your full speed as applying when you float next to a wall, just as it's possible to interpret that if you tether a surfboard to your feet, you can move at full speed through the open air a la the Silver Surfer. That doesn't mean that either of these is an intended consequence of this ability, or even a reasonable interpretation that assumes that the text isn't contradicting itself.
mato_hibiki 09-18-07, 04:51 AM	Should we retroactively rename scorn earth "I hover when near flat surfaces, dammit!" then? ;) Frankly, that's what I see it as. And I LIKE it that way. :D
Dead_Weasel 09-18-07, 01:08 PM	Lo, and may he who scorns without regard for gravitation, be made to eat his own cheese. Amen.
Sagetim 09-18-07, 02:21 PM	um...just thought I would mention this, but if you REALLY want to screw the elocator over, don't limit him to the floor. Instead, have the walls be curved. Have the cieling be full of stalagwhachamacallits. It requires a FLAT SURFACE. So make the floor one of the few flat surfaces and call it a day. If they want to float around the cieling they can do it at 10ft per round. If they ever fight someone in a building instead of a cave, they can run along the walls and cieling just fine. But there are few truely Flat surfaces in nature. Especially caves. Also: Domes aren't 'flat'.
Lycanthromancer 09-18-07, 02:33 PM	Technically speaking, unless your characters live on a Discworld, and they live on a gigantic SPHERE, like on Earth, they wouldn't really be able to scorn anything. It's a completely USELESS ABILITY! MUAHAHAHAHA!
Fafnir 09-18-07, 02:42 PM	Technically speaking, unless your characters live on a Discworld, and they live on a gigantic SPHERE, like on Earth, they wouldn't really be able to scorn anything. It's a completely USELESS ABILITY! MUAHAHAHAHA! :rofl:
Tsuul 09-18-07, 07:48 PM	Scorn Earth does not remove the Scorn everything(Ex) ability that ceilings generally have.
CrimsonDeath 09-18-07, 08:38 PM	Just be careful not to Scorn Woman (Ex). That can cause some problems.
Lycanthromancer 09-18-07, 08:40 PM	Just be careful not to Scorn Woman (Ex). That can cause some problems.Some say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I say it's paved with the bodies of those poor bastards that did.
Moosh Nailo 09-19-07, 06:25 PM	In my defense, a bit of selective reading was necessary for my argument not to sound full of holes. But that gives you no reason to focus solely on that single sentence rather than everything else I had to say. I still think I have a valid argument. If they really meant "ground", as in floor, where-everybody-else-walks kinda thing, they would have saved text and said it outright!
Tyler Do'Urden 09-19-07, 07:36 PM	That is to say, the designer thought (probably rightly) that players would focus on the word "ground", and thus misunderstand this ability, which is clearly intended to work on earth, city streets, water, tree limbs, and many others. Here's the text of Scorn Earth. Descriptive text is blue. Mechanical text is underlined.Scorn Earth (Su): At 1st level, an elocater’s feet lift from the ground. From now on, she can float a foot above the ground. Instead of walking she glides along, unconcerned with the hard earth or difficult terrain. While she remains within 1 foot of a flat surface of any solid or liquid, she can take normal actions and make normal attacks, and can move at her normal speed (she can even “run” at four times her normal speed). However, at distances higher than 1 foot above any surface, her speed diminishes to 10 feet per round. While she remains within 1 foot of a surface, she can make melee and ranged attacks normally, but if she moves any higher, she incurs the penalties on melee and ranged attack rolls as if she were the subject of the psionic levitate power. Here's a single word that they could have inserted into the description to completely eliminate any ambiguity. "horizontal" It would've gone somewhere around here: "While she remains within 1 foot of a flat, horizontal surface..."
CrimsonDeath 09-19-07, 08:10 PM	Here's the text of Scorn Earth. Descriptive text is blue. Mechanical text is underlined. Here's a single word that they could have inserted into the description to completely eliminate any ambiguity. "horizontal" It would've gone somewhere around here: "While she remains within 1 foot of a flat, horizontal surface..." What about slopes? Can Elocators float uphill? If so, how steep a slope can they float up? If not, what's the threshold between "horizontal" and "sloped"?
Nom 09-19-07, 08:29 PM	Here's the text of Scorn Earth. Descriptive text is blue. Mechanical text is underlined. ... Here's a single word that they could have inserted into the description to completely eliminate any ambiguity.Or you could, say, assume that the so-called "descriptive" text is the primary definition of the ability, and that everything else just serves to clarify it. The two clarifications are: * by "ground" we include anything reasonably ground-like, including liquids * you actually can go higher than 1 ft., but then you're somewhere between levitating and flying and the ability doesn't work as well.
locustechpriest 09-19-07, 10:03 PM	You do realize, I am sure, that cielings are horizontal. Because it would be absurd if you didn't. Draw for me a horizontal line. Now ask yourself, "Does putting stone on top of the line make it no longer horizontal?" Please, someone, explain to me why "descriptive text" is to be given less weight than "rules text". Nevermind the conundrum of who is defining which is which, and what criteria are used; I want to know why we are doing it to begin with. Rules don't exist except with the purpose of creating a fleshed out character (and world) that is fun to roleplay with and to make sure it doesn't become imblanced, which could remove some of the fun factor. All of the text must be taken into accout in order to get the flavor intended for the character. If you like a different flavor than is explicitly stated, or it you have a different interpretation as to what flavor is being conveyed, then I recommend that you play the way that is most fun, preferably including game balance. That is, as I see it, the intent of the rulebooks as a whole. That in mind, the text as I see it, implies that: gravity is never ignored, the ground, or top of other roughly horizontal surface (that is, one not requiring balance checks, exception being liquids) is open game, and activation and deactivation are at will (standard actions) that last indefinately. I am actually considering the other side, simply by nature of the "flanking from impossible angles" that I am seeing in the rest of the class. If you want to enhance that bit, then any surface that is flat might very well work. But for the moment I am sticking with the "gravity still matters" definition. Yes, I have committed the blasphemy of denying an "absolute truth". If you don't admit that the rules allow for interpretation, and insist that not going RAW makes someone into less of a gamer, then I have little more to add.
yrogerg 09-20-07, 12:15 AM	Or you could, say, assume that the so-called "descriptive" text is the primary definition of the ability, and that everything else just serves to clarify it. The two clarifications are: * by "ground" we include anything reasonably ground-like, including liquids * you actually can go higher than 1 ft., but then you're somewhere between levitating and flying and the ability doesn't work as well. It's worth pointing out that the "descriptive text" is the only thing in the entire ability that states that it lets the character ignore difficult terrain. Alas! I've clearly been playing my elocators incorrectly this whole time.