Shadowmind [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Shadowmind [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LordFlatulence
01-23-08, 02:02 AM The shadowmind, found in the complete adventurer gains mass cloud mind to their known powers list for free at level 9 of the class. However, throughout the class up to that point one only gains 6 manifesting levels and only 3 are required to take the class. Thus when you get this ability you only need to have access to level 5 powers. Mass cloud mind is a level 6 power.

I'm restricted by my manifester level of 9 to the amount of power points I can spend on a power and mass cloud mind costs 11. Does this mean that I would just get the power on my list but not be able to use it? Are there any methods to get around this that don't require more levels in my manifesting class (psion)? Regardless, shouldn't a class not give access to a power that I can't manifest?

The alternate option here is that I've misread something, but checking over it several times hasn't shed any new light. There's no errata on this either. Anyone have any ideas?
CrimsonDeath
01-23-08, 02:08 AM Well, there's a precedent. Elocater grants a couple of powers known and explicitly states that you can't use them until your ML is high enough to manifest powers of that level. Assuming Shadowmind lacks that clause, your DM might let you get away with Overchanneling. Otherwise, you might need more levels of Psion (or another PrC that advances manifesting).
InkBlot
01-23-08, 02:58 AM Overchannel should definitely work.

Although Practiced Manifester would work better, both mechanically and in the spirit of the rules. It doesn't require psionic focus, and it's designed to help make up lost manifester levels. Practiced Manifester is in Complete Psionic, but if you don't want to buy the book (can't blame you), just do the following:

Get your copy of Complete Arcane. Open a new text document in your favorite word processor. Transcribe Practiced Spellcaster into the document. Use the find/replace function to replace: spellcaster with manifester; spell with power; cast with manifest; and spell slots with power points.

Practiced Manifester is seriously nothing more than a bad find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster. Seriously.:nonono:
AntiDjinn
01-23-08, 03:50 AM The Shadowmind pretty much bites as a PrC even if you overlook this problem, at least for a psion.

The 3rd level special is you get Cloud Mind for free. Whoopie. It is on the psion/wilder general list anyway. You may also reduce the cost to manifest this power once per day by a number of points equal to your Shadowmind level. But the power has no augmentation options. It has a set cost of 3 points. So your special lets you save 2 points (minimum cost is 1) once per day. If you metapsionic the power (you might want to quicken it, extend it, or link another power to it) you can save more than 2 points, but the unadjusted cost must still be at or below your ML. Seriously, that is all the ability does: It saves you a few points once per day. It does not make the power work any better; the DC is still capped so eventually you will be facing foes of a CR sufficient to simply blow it off. To add insult to injury, the point savings doesn't even cover the points you lost by loosing manifester levels.

At 9th level you gain Mass Cloud Mind and the same once per day cost break. Again, the power is capped and has a set cost of 11. So once per day you can save 10 points. And again, the power doesn't actually function better, it is just cheaper once per day. Worth giving up 3 (or more) manifester levels? I think not.

The PrC might be OK for a psychic warrior. Neither Cloud Mind nor its Mass cousin are on your class list, so you save 2 feats by getting them for free. Your better BAB and hit points can help you in close combat when you are trying to use your sneak attacks. But going straight psychic warrior is still a better option. The Shadowmind is an interesting idea, but whoever wrote it up probably thought the Metamind was cool.
The_Mess
01-23-08, 12:09 PM Overchannel should definitely work.

I'm not sure. For the Ardent, certainly. However, the others have a set limit. Of course, that limit is "maximum power level known" not "maximum power level manifested"...
LordFlatulence
01-25-08, 04:20 PM Well, there's a precedent. Elocater grants a couple of powers known and explicitly states that you can't use them until your ML is high enough to manifest powers of that level. Assuming Shadowmind lacks that clause, your DM might let you get away with Overchanneling. Otherwise, you might need more levels of Psion (or another PrC that advances manifesting).

Indeed it does lack that clause, even in the errata. It seems to pretty solidly avoid suggesting anything limiting along those lines, so practiced manifester / overchannel should work fine.

Overchannel should definitely work.

Although Practiced Manifester would work better, both mechanically and in the spirit of the rules.

I was personally thinking along the lines of practiced manifester, myself. I was planning to take it anyway, just to cope with the loss of ML from the levels of the class that don't advance it.

The Shadowmind pretty much bites as a PrC even if you overlook this problem, at least for a psion.

Pretty obviously, yeah. I'm aware that the class is significantly sub-par. However, I was toying around with character ideas for our next campaign and the two areas that interested me for a character were psionics and rogues. A comination of the two, though not necessarily powerful, is extremely interesting to me.

Thanks for the responses. Still, I've got to say, is it just me or is it a bit strange that there's a class that gives you powers that you can't use, without suggesting so (as elocater does)?
SkipSandwich
01-27-08, 01:25 AM well, if you want to combine psionics and rogues, why not just play a psychic rogue, from the mind's eye article?
LordFlatulence
01-28-08, 04:00 PM I've looked into that as well, but I was trying out multiple things and the question in regard to the too early accessed power came up. Besides, I quite like the Mind Stab ability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordFlatulence 01-23-08, 02:02 AM	The shadowmind, found in the complete adventurer gains mass cloud mind to their known powers list for free at level 9 of the class. However, throughout the class up to that point one only gains 6 manifesting levels and only 3 are required to take the class. Thus when you get this ability you only need to have access to level 5 powers. Mass cloud mind is a level 6 power. I'm restricted by my manifester level of 9 to the amount of power points I can spend on a power and mass cloud mind costs 11. Does this mean that I would just get the power on my list but not be able to use it? Are there any methods to get around this that don't require more levels in my manifesting class (psion)? Regardless, shouldn't a class not give access to a power that I can't manifest? The alternate option here is that I've misread something, but checking over it several times hasn't shed any new light. There's no errata on this either. Anyone have any ideas?
CrimsonDeath 01-23-08, 02:08 AM	Well, there's a precedent. Elocater grants a couple of powers known and explicitly states that you can't use them until your ML is high enough to manifest powers of that level. Assuming Shadowmind lacks that clause, your DM might let you get away with Overchanneling. Otherwise, you might need more levels of Psion (or another PrC that advances manifesting).
InkBlot 01-23-08, 02:58 AM	Overchannel should definitely work. Although Practiced Manifester would work better, both mechanically and in the spirit of the rules. It doesn't require psionic focus, and it's designed to help make up lost manifester levels. Practiced Manifester is in Complete Psionic, but if you don't want to buy the book (can't blame you), just do the following: Get your copy of Complete Arcane. Open a new text document in your favorite word processor. Transcribe Practiced Spellcaster into the document. Use the find/replace function to replace: spellcaster with manifester; spell with power; cast with manifest; and spell slots with power points. Practiced Manifester is seriously nothing more than a bad find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster. Seriously.:nonono:
AntiDjinn 01-23-08, 03:50 AM	The Shadowmind pretty much bites as a PrC even if you overlook this problem, at least for a psion. The 3rd level special is you get Cloud Mind for free. Whoopie. It is on the psion/wilder general list anyway. You may also reduce the cost to manifest this power once per day by a number of points equal to your Shadowmind level. But the power has no augmentation options. It has a set cost of 3 points. So your special lets you save 2 points (minimum cost is 1) once per day. If you metapsionic the power (you might want to quicken it, extend it, or link another power to it) you can save more than 2 points, but the unadjusted cost must still be at or below your ML. Seriously, that is all the ability does: It saves you a few points once per day. It does not make the power work any better; the DC is still capped so eventually you will be facing foes of a CR sufficient to simply blow it off. To add insult to injury, the point savings doesn't even cover the points you lost by loosing manifester levels. At 9th level you gain Mass Cloud Mind and the same once per day cost break. Again, the power is capped and has a set cost of 11. So once per day you can save 10 points. And again, the power doesn't actually function better, it is just cheaper once per day. Worth giving up 3 (or more) manifester levels? I think not. The PrC might be OK for a psychic warrior. Neither Cloud Mind nor its Mass cousin are on your class list, so you save 2 feats by getting them for free. Your better BAB and hit points can help you in close combat when you are trying to use your sneak attacks. But going straight psychic warrior is still a better option. The Shadowmind is an interesting idea, but whoever wrote it up probably thought the Metamind was cool.
The_Mess 01-23-08, 12:09 PM	Overchannel should definitely work. I'm not sure. For the Ardent, certainly. However, the others have a set limit. Of course, that limit is "maximum power level known" not "maximum power level manifested"...
LordFlatulence 01-25-08, 04:20 PM	Well, there's a precedent. Elocater grants a couple of powers known and explicitly states that you can't use them until your ML is high enough to manifest powers of that level. Assuming Shadowmind lacks that clause, your DM might let you get away with Overchanneling. Otherwise, you might need more levels of Psion (or another PrC that advances manifesting). Indeed it does lack that clause, even in the errata. It seems to pretty solidly avoid suggesting anything limiting along those lines, so practiced manifester / overchannel should work fine. Overchannel should definitely work. Although Practiced Manifester would work better, both mechanically and in the spirit of the rules. I was personally thinking along the lines of practiced manifester, myself. I was planning to take it anyway, just to cope with the loss of ML from the levels of the class that don't advance it. The Shadowmind pretty much bites as a PrC even if you overlook this problem, at least for a psion. Pretty obviously, yeah. I'm aware that the class is significantly sub-par. However, I was toying around with character ideas for our next campaign and the two areas that interested me for a character were psionics and rogues. A comination of the two, though not necessarily powerful, is extremely interesting to me. Thanks for the responses. Still, I've got to say, is it just me or is it a bit strange that there's a class that gives you powers that you can't use, without suggesting so (as elocater does)?
SkipSandwich 01-27-08, 01:25 AM	well, if you want to combine psionics and rogues, why not just play a psychic rogue, from the mind's eye article?
LordFlatulence 01-28-08, 04:00 PM	I've looked into that as well, but I was trying out multiple things and the question in regard to the too early accessed power came up. Besides, I quite like the Mind Stab ability.