Shaper or Ardent for summoner build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shaper or Ardent for summoner build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RtrnofdMax
02-20-08, 01:01 PM I am trying to work up a psionic summoner build for a gestalt campaign and I have two questions:

1) Would it be better to be a shaper or an ardent with the creation mantle? I know the ardent has a much smaller power list, but I can just choose the mantles that have the powers I want, right?

2) Since the game is gestalt, what class would go well with a summoner? I'll need something that shores up the weaknesses of the other class, but doesn't compete for actions.

Thank you for your time.
InkBlot
02-20-08, 01:18 PM You're talking about astral constructs, right? Psions don't summon things; they bring their thoughts into physical form. Look up "tulpa" on the internet.

Are you using the astral construct nerf? If so, are spellcasters being nerfed in the same way?

The Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is the consumate astral construct class. Even with the nerfs, it's still better than the Ectopic Adept (which seemingly only exists to get around the nerf).

1) Since you're playing a Gestalt game, you can get all the benefits of the Ardent (better BAB and hitpoints) from your second class. The only reason to take Ardent would be if you really really want a Wisdom build. You can nab any mantle-only powers you were drooling over with a well-placed Expanded Knowledge.

2) For a summoner, Bard is fantastic because summoned monsters can all benefit from Bardic music. For psionic character who manifests tulpas, that doesn't work since they're immune to mind-affecting things such as Bardic Music. If you have Tome Of Battle, then going Crusader would be fantastic. Throw out some knight-on-horse shaped astral constructs, lead them into battle, and heal them. However, your DM may decide that White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers don't work on mindless constructs.
RtrnofdMax
02-20-08, 01:25 PM I was using "summoner" loosely. I will be using astral construct, but I don't know what this "nerf" is you speak of.
InkBlot
02-20-08, 01:32 PM Complete Psionic page 79. It says you can only ever have one astral construct at a time. Before that, you could have as many astral constructs out as you had power points to manifest with and rounds before the first one vanished.

Meanwhile, a spellcaster can summon five creatures with one action, and CPsi itself added several new powers which can summon (actually summon) multiple creatures.

This is one of the major reasons why Complete Psionics is so maligned.
hogarth
02-20-08, 02:43 PM I would consider taking erudite for an Astral Construct build; you don't need a huge number of unique powers per day if you're going to be using Astral Construct as your main power, and you can use the other side of your gestalt for giving you more versatility.

Also, the 3rd party book Hyperconscious has two prestige classes based around creating Astral Constructs; they're both at least as interesting as the Constructor PrC, in my opinion.
RtrnofdMax
02-20-08, 05:25 PM To use an erudite, I would have to either spend the expanded knowledge feat for astral construct or ask my DM to allow me to say I gained the knowledge from a Shaper since that power is only on the Metacreativity list and not the general list. Right?
InkBlot
02-20-08, 06:19 PM When you roll up a Wizard, and you want your Wizard to start out knowing burning hands, do you have to ask the DM if it's OK if your Wizard learned burning hands from an evoker?

Learning powers from Psions is the Erudites whole schtick. The only thing you should ask have to ask your DM is how much XP you can have towards having learned new powers. XP is a self-renewing resource, the more you use up the better you get at getting more of it, so a reasonable cap has to be set on how much "backstory XP" you have to spend. This same issue arises for anybody playing an item crafter, although then there's the GP/level guidelines to help out.
DracoPhoenix
02-21-08, 09:18 AM How about an (psi-?) artificer with craft construct? (MM3.5 p.303)

All the pets you could want, but they hang around longer.

As for ardent v shaper - shaper, you get way more powers, including the more notable "creation" ones.

Of course, as you're gestalt, you could take both (though I wouldn't bother about the creation mantle) :) You'll have all the creation powers and a silly number of pp by the end of it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RtrnofdMax 02-20-08, 01:01 PM	I am trying to work up a psionic summoner build for a gestalt campaign and I have two questions: 1) Would it be better to be a shaper or an ardent with the creation mantle? I know the ardent has a much smaller power list, but I can just choose the mantles that have the powers I want, right? 2) Since the game is gestalt, what class would go well with a summoner? I'll need something that shores up the weaknesses of the other class, but doesn't compete for actions. Thank you for your time.
InkBlot 02-20-08, 01:18 PM	You're talking about astral constructs, right? Psions don't summon things; they bring their thoughts into physical form. Look up "tulpa" on the internet. Are you using the astral construct nerf? If so, are spellcasters being nerfed in the same way? The Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is the consumate astral construct class. Even with the nerfs, it's still better than the Ectopic Adept (which seemingly only exists to get around the nerf). 1) Since you're playing a Gestalt game, you can get all the benefits of the Ardent (better BAB and hitpoints) from your second class. The only reason to take Ardent would be if you really really want a Wisdom build. You can nab any mantle-only powers you were drooling over with a well-placed Expanded Knowledge. 2) For a summoner, Bard is fantastic because summoned monsters can all benefit from Bardic music. For psionic character who manifests tulpas, that doesn't work since they're immune to mind-affecting things such as Bardic Music. If you have Tome Of Battle, then going Crusader would be fantastic. Throw out some knight-on-horse shaped astral constructs, lead them into battle, and heal them. However, your DM may decide that White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers don't work on mindless constructs.
RtrnofdMax 02-20-08, 01:25 PM	I was using "summoner" loosely. I will be using astral construct, but I don't know what this "nerf" is you speak of.
InkBlot 02-20-08, 01:32 PM	Complete Psionic page 79. It says you can only ever have one astral construct at a time. Before that, you could have as many astral constructs out as you had power points to manifest with and rounds before the first one vanished. Meanwhile, a spellcaster can summon five creatures with one action, and CPsi itself added several new powers which can summon (actually summon) multiple creatures. This is one of the major reasons why Complete Psionics is so maligned.
hogarth 02-20-08, 02:43 PM	I would consider taking erudite for an Astral Construct build; you don't need a huge number of unique powers per day if you're going to be using Astral Construct as your main power, and you can use the other side of your gestalt for giving you more versatility. Also, the 3rd party book Hyperconscious has two prestige classes based around creating Astral Constructs; they're both at least as interesting as the Constructor PrC, in my opinion.
RtrnofdMax 02-20-08, 05:25 PM	To use an erudite, I would have to either spend the expanded knowledge feat for astral construct or ask my DM to allow me to say I gained the knowledge from a Shaper since that power is only on the Metacreativity list and not the general list. Right?
InkBlot 02-20-08, 06:19 PM	When you roll up a Wizard, and you want your Wizard to start out knowing burning hands, do you have to ask the DM if it's OK if your Wizard learned burning hands from an evoker? Learning powers from Psions is the Erudites whole schtick. The only thing you should ask have to ask your DM is how much XP you can have towards having learned new powers. XP is a self-renewing resource, the more you use up the better you get at getting more of it, so a reasonable cap has to be set on how much "backstory XP" you have to spend. This same issue arises for anybody playing an item crafter, although then there's the GP/level guidelines to help out.
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 09:18 AM	How about an (psi-?) artificer with craft construct? (MM3.5 p.303) All the pets you could want, but they hang around longer. As for ardent v shaper - shaper, you get way more powers, including the more notable "creation" ones. Of course, as you're gestalt, you could take both (though I wouldn't bother about the creation mantle) :) You'll have all the creation powers and a silly number of pp by the end of it.