Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dolphin49 05-02-07, 10:22 AM	My players have been debating over which mele classes are better so we are having a ultimate fighter championship. Each player gets equal ability ability scores to distribute evenly and. an 18, 2=16, 2=14, and 12. all are human to make sure we get a good account of the battle. Dont want racial abilities throwing off our research. all players will be lv 20. Im building the psywar and my first battle is against a warblade.my only consern in fighting a warblade is the mountain tombstone strike which does 2d6 con and he can use it every other round. Well tell me what you guys think and what power's i should pick. Its a single elimation tourney. I want to prove the supreme power of the psywar! There will be 1 fighter of all mele classes. no prestige classes.
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 11:23 AM	The trick here is to use your powers to tip the balance toward you. Focus on first-strike capacity, lots of suppression fire, and drain/reversal effects. Expansion + Strength of My Enemy + Form of Doom + Psionic Lion's Charge. Max out your attacks, either through TWF or through lots of natural attack powers (or both, taking Multiattack as one of your feats; avoid Claws of the Beast in this case since you're using your hands for weapons. Be sure to get both Bite of the Wolf and SoS' Tail of the Dragon in this case). Add on an augmented Empathic Feedback and be sure to know Hostile Empathic Transfer and Vampiric Blade. Stand Still or Improved Trip going in there somewhere can allow you to trip someone before they get in reach if they aren't using a reach weapon. Offensive and Defensive Precognition can boost your attacks, AC, and saves to the points they need to be. Strength of My Enemy will be one of your best damage effects in general as well -- you want to hit a *lot* with it, so be sure to grab Combat Reflexes and possibly the Prowess power. If you're still worried about HP, take EK: Share Pain and share it with, say, a psicrystal, if you know Vigor this is even stronger. Finally, although I hate to suggest it, Complete Psionic has Stygian Weapon, which bestows 1d4 short-lived negative levels on the target (or stuns them if they're too weak to survive it, no save). What equipment do you have available? A psicrown would be very, very nice to help conserve your power points. Also, how much buff time do you have available?
dolphin49 05-02-07, 11:34 AM	The trick here is to use your powers to tip the balance toward you. Focus on first-strike capacity, lots of suppression fire, and drain/reversal effects. Expansion + Strength of My Enemy + Form of Doom + Psionic Lion's Charge. Max out your attacks, either through TWF or through lots of natural attack powers (or both, taking Multiattack as one of your feats; avoid Claws of the Beast in this case since you're using your hands for weapons. Be sure to get both Bite of the Wolf and SoS' Tail of the Dragon in this case). Add on an augmented Empathic Feedback and be sure to know Hostile Empathic Transfer and Vampiric Blade. Stand Still or Improved Trip going in there somewhere can allow you to trip someone before they get in reach if they aren't using a reach weapon. Offensive and Defensive Precognition can boost your attacks, AC, and saves to the points they need to be. Strength of My Enemy will be one of your best damage effects in general as well -- you want to hit a *lot* with it, so be sure to grab Combat Reflexes and possibly the Prowess power. If you're still worried about HP, take EK: Share Pain and share it with, say, a psicrystal, if you know Vigor this is even stronger. Finally, although I hate to suggest it, Complete Psionic has Stygian Weapon, which bestows 1d4 short-lived negative levels on the target (or stuns them if they're too weak to survive it, no save). What equipment do you have available? A psicrown would be very, very nice to help conserve your power points. Also, how much buff time do you have available? We get 1 round buff time. The only equipment available is 1 plus 6 item for key ability score, plus 4 weapon, armor, shield, plus 3 ring of protection, plus 6 braces of armor. plus 4 gloves of dex, and 2 plus 4 items for ability scores. The other advantage i have is that the tob classes dont get a lot of feats compared to me.
dolphin49 05-02-07, 12:00 PM	The person building the swordsage i know exactly how he is going to play. he is going to have dodge , mobility, and spring attack. he likes to attack and move so that hard hitters only get one attack while his maneuvers will sometimes do damage of full attacks. If you don't come to him he uses his range touch maneuvers if you do he hits and runs
Deekin 05-02-07, 12:04 PM	The person building the swordsage i know exactly how he is going to play. he is going to have dodge , mobility, and spring attack. he likes to attack and move so that hard hitters only get one attack while his maneuvers will sometimes do damage of full attacks. If you don't come to him he uses his range touch maneuvers if you do he hits and runs Please note that sprint attack lets you move, make a single attack, and then keep moving. You can't use strikes with it, as they are standard actions.
Toxic_Shaman 05-02-07, 12:14 PM	Look into using EK to get Entangling Ectoplasm. That power is a nice way to slow down mobile opponents. Spend one power point for a ranged touch attack with no saving throw that limits the opponent so that he moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity.
brahmin 05-02-07, 01:12 PM	how far do the two start apart? what's the size of the battlefield in 3 dimensions? what obstacles exist if any? what's the battlefield made of? earth, stone, force, diamonds, pirates? (joke) also, a round robin tourney (where everyone fights eachother once) is a much more suitable test of skills imo. stuff like this is really fun...keep us posted on how it turns out.
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 01:13 PM	Single fight where the psychic warrior knows more or less what he is fighting and does not have to worry about pp conservation? I would put my money down on the psychic warrior. You can be effectively unhittable or you can make your opponent cry like a baby because everything they do hurts them as much, or more, as it hurts you. But in a normal game I have found that the psychic warrior needs more pp each day and have increased their base pp pool.
CrimsonDeath 05-02-07, 03:09 PM	Would EK: Schism be useful? It'd let him continue buffing/healing himself without interfering with his swift-action buffs or his full attacks. And a PsyWar doesn't really have to worry about spring-attack cheese if he has Psionic Lion's Charge. Isn't there a PsyWar Nova thread on the CO boards?
Azoriel 05-02-07, 03:58 PM	my only consern in fighting a warblade is the mountain tombstone strike which does 2d6 con and he can use it every other round. One 5th level psychic warrior power can render mountain tombstone strike utterly useless: Oak Body. Before you Oak Body up, though, I'd recommend you Psychofeedback away your Int and Cha to ensure stronger swings. (This is assuming you don't think he'll pick up any of those shadow hand maneuvers via feats. EDIT: wait a sec, here; if you're immune to ability score damage from Oak Body, it doesn't matter if he tries to damage your junked out mental stats!) Expanded Knowledge: Schism can let you buff up twice as fast (as well as let you continuously buff in middle of the fight). I'd consider taking something like Inconstant Location if you think mobility will be an issue (though it probably won't be). You'll have more feats than he will, and the list of bonus feats you can pick from will be considerably larger than his. The shock trooper feat, combined with leap attack, Psionic Lion's Charge, and a spiked chain (or natural reach) can be quite deadly. However, this combination leaves your guard down, so it may be better as a finisher than an opener. There's even the possibility of taking maneuver and stances feats to get your own ToB tricks (but I suppose that may conflict with the intentions of the exercise). If you have a high enough wisdom, I would weigh the benefits of heavy armor vs. bracers of armor with a monk's belt. I think anything else I would advise has already been said (especially making mention of Form of Doom), so...
dolphin49 05-02-07, 04:05 PM	Please note that sprint attack lets you move, make a single attack, and then keep moving. You can't use strikes with it, as they are standard actions. My dm allows you to spring attack and use a maneuver that is a standard action. One attack is a standard action, so he ruled that the spirit of the rule for spring attack should apply, u move make 1 attack.
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 04:15 PM	My dm allows you to spring attack and use a maneuver that is a standard action. One attack is a standard action, so he ruled that the spirit of the rule for spring attack should apply, u move make 1 attack. Wow.. he really beefed up spring attacks power! Now it is like flyby attack but incredibly better! I hope that many casters are picking spring attack up, it is incredible for them!
primemover003 05-02-07, 04:23 PM	Wow.. he really beefed up spring attacks power! Now it is like flyby attack but incredibly better! I hope that many casters are picking spring attack up, it is incredible for them! It's probably still not as good as Mobile Spellcasting (like shot on the run, but you get a double move). This sounds like a very interesting contest... keep us posted with the Results.
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 04:24 PM	Prep round: Psychic warrior Form of doom, steadfast perception, activate boots of speed. Share the first two with your psicrystal (who is on your shoulder in a little saddle thing, not for the ride skill!) Psicrystal Ready an action to manifest entangling ectoplasm on the opponent just before the psychic warrior or the opponent are going to enter one or the others threat range 1st round (opponent wins initiative): Opponent likely charges, virtually assured to be hit by the entangling ectoplasm, turn over! 1st round (psychic warrior wins initiative): Activate psionic lions charge pumped up all of the way and charge in to kill the guy Or delay until after the opponent goes, swift action power such as expansion or psychofeedback, full attack the guy and have your psicrystal full attack the guy I'll have to look over the warblade stuff to see if he has any decent answers to this ;)
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 04:25 PM	It's probably still not as good as Mobile Spellcasting (like shot on the run, but you get a double move). Unfortunately I am not familiar with this feat.
primemover003 05-02-07, 04:26 PM	It's in CV...
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 04:32 PM	It's in CV... Champions of Valor? That is definately not very far up my 'to buy' list.
InkBlot 05-02-07, 04:44 PM	CV stands for Complete Adventurer. Mobile Spellcasting is in Complete Adventurer. I saw it myself. It requires you to make a concentration check, IIRC.
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 04:50 PM	CV = Complete Adventurer. CA was already taken by Complete Arcane. Do note that the last posted strategy won't work until epic, since it involves the psicrystal manifesting a power and the presence of boots of speed (which aren't listed in the standard equipment for either side).
dolphin49 05-02-07, 04:52 PM	One thing im interested in seeing is the swordsage has a lot of counters that make u miss, and a stance that gives them one free counter a round, and they will also have pearl of black doubts which means every time i miss there AC goes up.
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 04:55 PM	CV = Complete Adventurer. CA was already taken by Complete Arcane. If you guys say so. I have always seen CAd as complete adventurer and it is listed as such on the wizards site. CV is champions of valor, whatever that is. Do note that the last posted strategy won't work until epic, since it involves the psicrystal manifesting a power and the presence of boots of speed (which aren't listed in the standard equipment for either side). The psicrystal manifesting a power takes only a single 'improved psicrystal' feat. I did miss that the equipment list available sucks though. The lack of prebuffing plus the short equipment list favors the warblade, I dont know about the swordsage.
Rageheart 05-02-07, 04:57 PM	I always use the abbreviation "CAdv"
Lycanthromancer 05-02-07, 05:08 PM	Psychic warriors are buff-monkeys, so I'd suggest getting your be-claw'd little hands on the following: Schism Temporal Acceleration Dispelling Buffer (pay someone to psychic chirurgery it!) Metamorphosis (share with your psicrystal, turning it into either a 12-headed hydra or some wacked-out construct to ride, but see below) I'd also suggest taking Psicrystal Affinity, and an Improved Psicrystal or two. Since you're 20th level, you now have an epic-level psicrystal that can manifest its own powers. If you get a Skin of Proteus and some equipment, you can give your crystalline-buddy a huge amount of versatility. It can be your mount, your tag-teamer, your flanker, and so on (and it can turn into constructs with up to 7 HD - which is nice). If you give YOURSELF a Skin of Proteus too, that can free up some time and power points to use with other things - though it's not as powerful. Anyway, make sure you buff yourself out the wazoo, then up with the Dispelling Buffer. Since you (hopefully) have either Boots of Acceleration or you know the Temporal Acceleration power, that gives you plenty of time to buff yourself before each combat. Schism can help you by manifesting powers that don't scale but are still extremely useful - like Psionic Grease, Entangling Ectoplasm, and so on. If you manage to find a way to take Energy Conversion, you can always load up on energy damage prior to the fight, then have your Schism and psicrystal blast away while you make your opponents' lives miserable. Also don't forget to take some battlefield control powers so that you can restrict your foes' movement. It's amazing what a few well-placed Walls of Ectoplasm can do when your foes' primary tactics require massive amounts of mobility. Anyway, I hope I've given you some food for thought.
primemover003 05-02-07, 05:33 PM	Yeah abbreviations never match from one place to the next... I have to agree with an earlier post that round robin format would better judge each classes overall strength. I don't have the ToB so I'm not really up to date on the classes or their strengths. Another good idea is to have a couple standard battle maps, small and large, Dungeon and Wilderness, so you guys can use tactics, skills, feats and the environment to good use. I mean what good is bullrush if there are no lava pits or cliffs to fall into or off of!?!?! Combat is always about who has the better ground.
Lycanthromancer 05-02-07, 05:40 PM	Also, a good idea is to have Psychic Reformation handy. Prepare specifically for your opponent by switching out powers and feats. If you know who you're going up against 15 minutes in advance, you're golden. Got a pesky spellcaster? Manifest Null Psionics Field on your psicrystal. Got a mobility-based character? Wall of Ectoplasm. Grappler? Metamorphosis into a tyrannosaur.
wolfie-kun 05-02-07, 06:58 PM	People keep mentioning the entangling ectoplasm power. Sounds like Iron Heart Surge will get any good Warblade right out of there (and he can use at least one counter against any attacks you try, such as Manticore Parry, which will throw your attack either back at you or at your psicrystal). So I'd say try to avoid anything with a long duration, unless you're going to be stacking effects on like crazy, or there's a possibility you'll be hurting yourself much more than hurting him. Schism is almost always a good choice for a psywar (as pretty much everyone has said already). Try to avoid any powers that would give the warblade a save; he has a large number of counters available (six or seven) devoted solely to making successful saving throws--meaning you might be wasting actions. Instead focus on buffs that will make the Warblade's amazing damage potential less significant. Also, don't bother with your AC unless you can make it ridiculous. If it's anything less than 60, a Warblade will be able to hit you with most attacks (unless you convince your DM to nerf the martial discipline weapon property--it gives massive attack bonuses). Scion of Coldshard mentioned that the Warblade will probably charge, which may or may not be true. More often than not, charging is actually detrimental to a martial adept, as they're forced to make a normal attack and can't use a strike that round (unless your DM ruled you could initiate strikes while charging too). Everything I'm saying here makes it sound like the Warblade's better...I must not have enough experience with psywars >.>
Scion of Coldshard 05-02-07, 07:09 PM	wolfie-kun, warblades have a limited set of readied maneuvers, level 20 is their highest amount for their entire carear and it is still only 7 readied and only 13 known. While it is possible that a warblade could be made to counter many different situations any given warblade is unlikely to be able to do much against many of them. Try building one that can do massive damage and overcome any set of conditions that may befall it. ;) My experience is with them a bit lower in level though where only having 4 or 5 maneuvers readied at once 'really' hurts. Maybe with the extra two it becomes easier.
Kiklio 05-02-07, 07:49 PM	We get 1 round buff time. The only equipment available is 1 plus 6 item for key ability score, plus 4 weapon, armor, shield, plus 3 ring of protection, plus 6 braces of armor. plus 4 gloves of dex, and 2 plus 4 items for ability scores. Take Expanded Knowledge: Fly. He's not going to have Boots of Flying. The only way he can get to you is via enchanted armor or if he's a thrown weapon kind of warblade. If he can't get to you, fill his body full of crystal shards. The great thing about the psychic warrior is that you can blow two feats to facilitate this tactic and still create a kickin' melee build. You can finish the job with a flying Psionic Lion's Charge.
wolfie-kun 05-02-07, 09:26 PM	wolfie-kun, warblades have a limited set of readied maneuvers, level 20 is their highest amount for their entire carear and it is still only 7 readied and only 13 known. While it is possible that a warblade could be made to counter many different situations any given warblade is unlikely to be able to do much against many of them. Try building one that can do massive damage and overcome any set of conditions that may befall it. ;) My experience is with them a bit lower in level though where only having 4 or 5 maneuvers readied at once 'really' hurts. Maybe with the extra two it becomes easier. *sigh* Sorry for going a little off-topic and being the devil's advocate here, but... All? No. A good number of them? Not that tough. 13 known is enough for at least one 9th level maneuver (hm...Time Stands Still comes to mind), IHS, all four Diamond Mind save boosters. That's six. Stances and seven more. Easily enough for the counter I spoke of. 7 readied: Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, Diamond Defense, Avalanche of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Manticore Parry, Quicksilver Motion. The thing is, he'll only be able to counter, save boost, or Iron Heart Surge once--assuming he does what I did there--before he needs to recover maneuvers (at which point he can only make a full attack). There are only three actually offensive maneuvers readied there, but they can rack up to incredible amounts of damage rather quickly with Stormgaurd Warrior.
carnivore 05-02-07, 09:29 PM	will post somthing later :D
Second 05-03-07, 02:07 AM	Well if you don't mind being cheap get a good bow and EK(Fly, Psionic) and snipe him from 80 ft up or so. Speaking of which, watch out for one of them to take that one stance that gives them a fly speed. Consider EK(Metamorphosis) and Metamorphic Transfer. Im sure they won't be expecting to fight some exotic monster. Anything with Swallow Whole (i.e. Purple Worm) and massive grapple checks will effectively disable any melee character without some form of teleportation magic or a small slashing weapon. It looks like they're getting one weapon each and usually a frontline melee fighter like most martial adepts chooses something fairly sizable. Some kind of grappling build, possibly using metamorphosis, could seriously ruin their day. But these tactics may not be in the spirit of the contest. In such a case, a build centered on reach weapons (Spiked chain) and tripping may prove effective depending on what maneuvers they'll have readied. I might come up with something more specific in the morning. :zzz:
Rageheart 05-03-07, 02:30 AM	...Anything with Swallow Whole (i.e. Purple Worm) and massive grapple checks will effectively disable any melee character without some form of teleportation magic or a small slashing weapon. It looks like they're getting one weapon each and usually a frontline melee fighter like most martial adepts chooses something fairly sizable. Don't forget Freedom of Movement (and the Psionic version) makes you immune to grapples. "The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin." -RSRD
JulesCARV 05-03-07, 02:56 AM	If you're going for fly or metamorphosis, see if you can take the Mind's Eye mantled warrior variant with the natural world or freedom mantles instead of taking expanded knowledge. It's more efficient that way, probably.
Azoriel 05-03-07, 04:44 AM	If you're going for fly or metamorphosis, see if you can take the Mind's Eye mantled warrior variant with the natural world or freedom mantles instead of taking expanded knowledge. It's more efficient that way, probably. The efficiency of a mantle vs. expanded knowledge depends entirely on whether or not you: want the mantle ability or plan on taking more than one power on the mantle's list. For a psychic warrior, both cost a feat. One actually tacks on an additional power known, whereas the other just lets you learn them normally. If you just plan on taking one power off of the mantle list and/or aren't in love with the mantle's granted ability, you might be better off just taking Expanded Knowledge. Since we're on the topic of mantles and cheap tricks, one can easily pick up the magic mantle, and then convert either Extraordinary Spell Aim or Selective Spell to psionic powers. The end result of this would be a null psionics field that effects the people nearby, but completely ignores you (and your stuff). As paltry as the magical items in this contest may be, your opponent would still be left at a severe disadvantage by this. However, I suspect this would once again detract from the intentions of this contest, being psychic warrior vs. Tome of Battle class, not character with magic items vs. character effectively without magic items (not to mention the reputational black-eye it would earn any character class and player that actually demonstrates this trick).
Scion of Coldshard 05-03-07, 04:09 PM	*sigh* I started going through to build the guy to see if he was possible and what he would look like but then I stopped, the sigh just turned me off of the project. If you would like to actually build him so that he could be compared that would be cool ;)
wolfie-kun 05-03-07, 05:05 PM	I started going through to build the guy to see if he was possible and what he would look like but then I stopped, the sigh just turned me off of the project. If you would like to actually build him so that he could be compared that would be cool ;) What I typed in that post is more than possible for any Warblade 20... The prereqs are easy to get when you include the fact you can use stances as maneuver prereqs, then you have completely free reign on feats. It's pretty much the quintessential TWFing Warblade that doesn't want to get dominated a lot.
Scion of Coldshard 05-03-07, 05:12 PM	So you dont want to write the guy up? That is unfortunate.
wolfie-kun 05-04-07, 10:06 AM	So you dont want to write the guy up? That is unfortunate. There shouldn't be any need for a write-up, and I don't want to be giving the OP a greater possible challenge than he might really be facing. The entire point I've been trying to make is the Warblade isn't going to act like most other melee types that existed pre-ToB. ToB Build Compendium ToB Tricks/Combos/Library What I said there is already in at least one of the builds in the Compendium (check the very first, and the very last posts). My own Warblade 20 build in that compendium is an AoO nightmare, and something that is almost completely untouchable in direct melee combat. (Send me a PM sometime. If I have time, I'll write this guy up, put him in the Compendium as well, then show you both the TWFing and the AoO monsters ToB has created). EDIT: On the note of me being the devil's advocate here, a Warblade's not too badly off if he gets stuck in an AMF. Most of his damage boosting maneuvers are Extraordinary, and uneffected.
Scion of Coldshard 05-04-07, 11:00 AM	There shouldn't be any need for a write-up I have seen far too many people propose builds for warblades that are simply not possible to not require an actual warblade build to be made if a claim is made about its abilities ;) Especially at higher levels. I think that dolphin49 should get all of the info he can for this type of fight! The entire point I've been trying to make is the Warblade isn't going to act like most other melee types that existed pre-ToB. Then why are you argueing with me? That point is definately true. A trivial example is that they use swift and immediate actions a lot more than most any other melee type that existed before it. EDIT: On the note of me being the devil's advocate here, a Warblade's not too badly off if he gets stuck in an AMF. Most of his damage boosting maneuvers are Extraordinary, and uneffected. That is definately interesting though. I wonder if there are little hidden things somewhere about the abilities not working in antimagic fields even though they are extraordinary. Such a thing is not without precident sadly. But if they do work in antimagic fields that is an incredible boost! Every cleric should pick up a couple of levels of warblade once they can cast antimagic field. Hit to the spellcasting but who cares, you are nearly invincible ;)
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 11:08 AM	Ummm.... Scion? There are a few supernatural abilites in the ToB, but most are extraordinary and continue to function in AMFs. However, just a few levels will NOT make anyone invincible, and the cleric itself is *far* too strong to justify taking levels in a mere melee class (unless you're doing a Ruby Knight Vindicator, but if that's the case you're most likely NOT a primary cleric). If I had more time right now, I'd comb this thread again and build the warblade they're talking about. In the meantime, though, I have nothing to do but suggest that you pick up the book. It's the best expansion book I've bought since the XPH, and is pretty much on the same level as it.
Scion of Coldshard 05-04-07, 12:18 PM	There are a few supernatural abilites in the ToB, but most are extraordinary and continue to function in AMFs. Hence my general question. I dont have the book on me at the moment and I am far from being an expert of everything that they can do. Which is another reason to ask for a full build when people start talking about what a character can do. However, just a few levels will NOT make anyone invincible Have you lost your sense of humor tempest? :( If I had more time right now, I'd comb this thread again and build the warblade they're talking about. In the meantime, though, I have nothing to do but suggest that you pick up the book. It's the best expansion book I've bought since the XPH, and is pretty much on the same level as it. Are you still talking to me? There is a big gap so perhaps you meant to quote someone else or something. I own the book already and it is great! Between it, psionics, and a slightly modified version of incarnum I am pretty well set as far as games go ;)
RadicalTaoist 05-04-07, 02:27 PM	Spend a pittance of your feats and powers known to optimize grappling like so. Take Dispel Psionics. Whack enemy with Dispel Psionics if they appear immune to grappling. While their items are down, grapple them. Disarm them of any rings or amulets. Have your way with an enemy whose bonus to grapple is a third of yours.
Azoriel 05-04-07, 03:37 PM	EDIT: On the note of me being the devil's advocate here, a Warblade's not too badly off if he gets stuck in an AMF. Most of his damage boosting maneuvers are Extraordinary, and uneffected. As has been noted by several others already, the warblade's class abilities, by and large, will not be directly impacted by the presence of an Antimagic Field. HOWEVER, the purpose is not to eliminate his class abilities. The intention of using such Antimagic Field tricks is negating his magical items while leaving your own intact. Sure, he can still diamond nightmare strike or what-have-you; however, without his strength booster and magic weapon, he's going to be notably less accurate and less damaging in his attacks. Yes, he still has wall of blades to deflect your attacks; however, without magical armor and a dex booster, you're much more likely to hit on those attacks that are not deflected in such a manner (which will only be happening once every other round anyway). You're not going to tell me a fighter 20 without magical items isn't at a significant disadvantage vs. a fighter 20 with 1/2 of his base line in magical items, are you?
CrimsonDeath 05-04-07, 08:29 PM	Won't the warblade just IHS the AMF?
Vharuck 05-04-07, 08:53 PM	Since it's not a campaign and these items and characters will no longer resist after the match... Why not make a Sundering master? Break his weapons, then break his face.
Deep Blue 9000 05-04-07, 10:53 PM	My players have been debating over which mele classes are better so we are having a ultimate fighter championship. Each player gets equal ability ability scores to distribute evenly and. an 18, 2=16, 2=14, and 12. all are human to make sure we get a good account of the battle. Dont want racial abilities throwing off our research. all players will be lv 20. Im building the psywar and my first battle is against a warblade.my only consern in fighting a warblade is the mountain tombstone strike which does 2d6 con and he can use it every other round. Well tell me what you guys think and what power's i should pick. Its a single elimation tourney. I want to prove the supreme power of the psywar! There will be 1 fighter of all mele classes. no prestige classes. I don't know if this has been brought up but I don't think a 1v1 fight is a good way to determine the relative effectiveness of each class. Even if psiwar was perfectly balanced with warblade or even slightly weaker over 4 encounters per day, we would still expect the psiwar to win a single encounter where he gets to blow all his pp. I suspect that they only effective way to test the relative merits of each class is to have two who parties, identical except for their melee class, who try and overcome a variety of obstacles and situations.
Azoriel 05-05-07, 06:29 AM	Won't the warblade just IHS the AMF? Hm... An excellent point which I had completely forgotten about. Most people don't really expect Antimagic Fields to be coming from psychic warriors, but, then again, it's probably safe to assume he'd prepare for contingencies which he might not be able to immediately foresee. In light of this new bit of logic, I would say Antimagic Field against the warblade is probably a waste of power points (a precious commodity) and time (an even more precious commodity). Against the swordsage and crusader, however...
wolfie-kun 05-05-07, 12:21 PM	Since Scion really wants to see the build...I'll just come up with my own real quick. Here's a link to it in the ToB Build Compendium: Scar. And to my AoO monster version of a Warblade 20: Scathe. (If anyone sees something illegal tell me as soon as you find it--I'm pretty bad about that in version 1 of most of my builds).
PhaedrusXY 05-05-07, 12:39 PM	Since it's not a campaign and these items and characters will no longer resist after the match... Why not make a Sundering master? Break his weapons, then break his face.I made a level 30 Psiwarrior for the duels thread on the Epic boards based around Sundering and Karmic strike. It worked quite well. ;)
Harbin_Dunewalker 05-05-07, 01:35 PM	And, as has already been posted, Expanded Knowledge (Fly, Psionic) is just great. Not only does it let you take down those annoying flying wizards, but it lets you do the same thing to groundbound fighters!
Lycanthromancer 05-05-07, 03:42 PM	Metamorphosis would be better, since all you have to do is pick a form that can fly.
periscope 05-05-07, 04:42 PM	You may want something that screw with skill checks, particularly concentration. His save boosting counters require it and there is a nasty set of maneuvers (insightful strike and its big brother) that do damage based on their concentration check. Is there a power that imposes penalties on skill checks? Also, pray he doesnt go for the spank the monkey build (it lets him do 23,546 damage in a round average [no Im not making this up]). Do you have any powers that will affect his int, wis, or cha? His wisdom will be the lowest if he goes for the book definition of the warblade. If not then his charisma will probably be low. If you can nail them both.
Tempest Stormwind 05-05-07, 04:47 PM	Periscope: Spank the Monkey requires him to bring a priming target (like a monkey) into battle with him, which you can easily kill. Furthermore, it relies on two things: 1) White Raven Tactics being able to target yourself 2) Lots of Nightsticks. Besides, it's a single-class warblade -- Spank the Monkey involves cleric and RKB levels, and is thus not present in this combat. The closest a single-class warblade can come to Spank the Monkey (assuming the WRT exploit holds) involves using Avalanche of Blades on Combat Rhythm (Stormguard Warrior maneuver), then WRT on self, then Raging Mongoose, then Time Stands Still. If the WRT ruling doesn't hold, gratz -- you'll move out of the way before he attacks. (Note the similar structure to Spank the Monkey, just without the piles of endless recoveries and reloops.)
Lycanthromancer 05-05-07, 04:50 PM	There's always Expanded Knowledge: Destiny Dissonance. It sickens your foes, touch attack, no save. Entangling Ectoplasm and Psionic Grease are nice (especially if you can manage to up the save DC of Grease). Ego Whip is half damage to Cha on a failed save, so it doesn't matter if he makes his save or not. Demoralize is nice, since fear effects stack. The main problem is it's save negates, and is mind-affecting.
periscope 05-05-07, 04:55 PM	Periscope: Spank the Monkey requires him to bring a priming target (like a monkey) into battle with him, which you can easily kill. Furthermore, it relies on two things: 1) White Raven Tactics being able to target yourself 2) Lots of Nightsticks. Besides, it's a single-class warblade -- Spank the Monkey involves cleric and RKB levels, and is thus not present in this combat. The closest a single-class warblade can come to Spank the Monkey (assuming the WRT exploit holds) involves using Avalanche of Blades on Combat Rhythm (Stormguard Warrior maneuver), then WRT on self, then Raging Mongoose, then Time Stands Still. If the WRT ruling doesn't hold, gratz -- you'll move out of the way before he attacks. (Note the similar structure to Spank the Monkey, just without the piles of endless recoveries and reloops.) Ok sorry I havent had my coffee. (did I just say that? Man Im getting old already). Still that can deal a lot of damage. What if he expanded knowledged that kineticist power that gives him DR (i think ) 15/-? I dont have the book in front of me but that be a good thing to use early on. Then there is that timeless body (probably go it wrong) that makes you invincible for a round (but I dont know if Psywar can get it).
wolfie-kun 05-05-07, 09:01 PM	Ok sorry I havent had my coffee. (did I just say that? Man Im getting old already). Still that can deal a lot of damage. What if he expanded knowledged that kineticist power that gives him DR (i think ) 15/-? I dont have the book in front of me but that be a good thing to use early on. Then there is that timeless body (probably go it wrong) that makes you invincible for a round (but I dont know if Psywar can get it). You need a mere 3 touch attacks to hit in round 1 to completely negate DR 15/-. Getting far out of full attack range right after a Combat Rythm round is a good idea; and one move away isn't good enough either, since a warblade can make a move action as a swift action. One of your best bets is going to be making sure that you force him to use counters one round, then blast him the next round while he's recovering and can't use them. Flight is a good way to stay out of range (though not absolutely perfect, since he can take Martial Study and Martial Stance to get air walk). Avoid effects that he could use Iron Heart Surge on so that you don't waste power points, but any round on which he recovers go in to hit him hard. At least...if he's got a build that looks like Scar. If he's got something that looks like Scathe...just stay out of range, or you'll hurt. Anything that gives you a good reach of 15ft+ will work (though every few rounds he could slam a Burning Brand at you a little further away, it's easily mitigated since it's all fire damage). Just go for a better reach if he uses Dancing Blade Form (which will give that +5ft reach on every attack made during his turn).
Ectoplasmoid 05-08-07, 10:57 PM	I second the Ego Whip plan. Blowing two feats on EK: Ego Whip and Maximize Power will give you the ability to deal 16 Cha damage, save for half. With Overchannel, that's 20 cha damage (3 for first 4, 4 for maximize, 16 points to pump 4 times). Combine that with a Quickened Ego Whip, which gives you an additional 4d4 damage. (3 for first d4, 6 for quicken, 12 to pump d4 3 times) That's a minimum of 12 Cha Damage, an average of 15, and a maximum of 18- if he saves. Assuming he dumps CHA, and leaves it at 12 or 14, you kill him 90% of the time. Use the rest of the feats for a backup plan. Oh, if he somehow survives, hustle+psionic meditation+maximized whip will almost certainly take him down the next turn. Oh- and one last thing- EK: Schism is good for your buff round. You throw out another 4d4 points of CHA damage- or a straight 12 if your second mind can also hold a focus. He will be a gibbering ball of low self-esteem.
CrimsonDeath 05-09-07, 04:53 AM	While I appreciate the efficiency of the Ego Whip plan, that's really more of a Psion strategy. I imagine that everyone would feel better about the exercise if the Psychic Warrior were to win by inflicting hit point damage (or, if he's going to inflict ability damage, to do it using Psychic Warrior powers).
Suldarr'essalar 05-09-07, 06:23 AM	Using dimension hop + combat brute and high sword low axe (total 9 feats) you can use dimension hop to get to the warblade as a swift action then sunder his weapon and thanks to combat brute make another an aditional attack, then hit with your off-hand and gain a free trip. If you could get your hands on fission (psicrown perhaps), and having a psicrystal with form of doom, the battle becomes 3vs1. If you share fission with your psicrystal that's 4vs1. Also, keep in mind, that taking mantled warrior and choosing conflict mantle you add all powers from the mantle to your power list and gain weapon focus. From now on you can use a power stone of spirit of war (+4 to attack & damage + 10 on one save, confirm 1 critical, for all allies (psicrystal + fission)).
Ectoplasmoid 05-09-07, 09:40 AM	In that case, I recommend the King of Smack build, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556 Which does a ton of damage and can prevent a ton more. Or, alternatively, the Psywar20 version of the spiked chain gatling-gun trip build. Use a swift, max augged Expansion and Form of Doom, and glue him to the floor. Also, what does it say about a fighting class which can take enough feats to make a psionic combat style workable, and still have enough left over for a whole combat style?
wolfie-kun 05-09-07, 03:41 PM	In that case, I recommend the King of Smack build, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556 Which does a ton of damage and can prevent a ton more. Or, alternatively, the Psywar20 version of the spiked chain gatling-gun trip build. Use a swift, max augged Expansion and Form of Doom, and glue him to the floor. Also, what does it say about a fighting class which can take enough feats to make a psionic combat style workable, and still have enough left over for a whole combat style? Looking at the King of Smack again after such a long time just makes me wish even more for ToB/Psionic content. Yeah, the King of Smack is a good way to put down either the TWFer or the AoO version (though AoO with readied maneuvers focused on counters might be a little annoying); I haven't looked very far into a single strike focused Warblade yet, though. May start work on one tomorrow, have a test that I need to study for tonight. Speaking of that, though, is the OP keeping up with this thread still?
CrimsonDeath 05-09-07, 05:31 PM	Good question. I imagine the showdown is already over; I'd like to know how it went.
Forgember 05-17-07, 11:17 PM	So who won already?
primemover003 06-01-07, 07:55 PM	Yeah who won???