So, were the writers of XPH PrCs on crack or what? [Archive] - Wizards Community

So, were the writers of XPH PrCs on crack or what? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Enchanter_Tom
12-03-07, 02:58 AM Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling. Everything stays the same, even in epic-level games; the damage is set, the uses are set, the duration is set. (This, of course, is a problem with a number of other classes, but it seems more prominent in the XPH.)

An elocater of 3rd level or higher can slip psionically between spaces as if using the psionic dimension door power, once per day. ...An elocater of 9th level or higher can use her dimension step ability in conjunction with her Spring Attack feat once per day. ...The use of this ability counts as her use of the dimension step ability on that day (and this ability is not available during a day when she has already used dimension step). ...When she attains 10th level, an elocater can accelerate herself and thereby take more actions than normal. An elocater can accelerate herself for a total of 5 rounds per day.

At 1st level, a metamind can manifest any 1st-level power he knows for free (without spending power points) three times per day. At higher levels, a metamind gains the ability to freely manifest additional higher-level powers: three 2nd-level powers per day at 3rd level; one 3rd-level power per day at 5th level; one 4th-level power per day at 7th level; and one 5th-level power per day at 9th level. ...A 10th-level metamind can act as a living cognizance crystal, producing seemingly endless power points once per day, for up to 1 minute.

Beginning at 1st level, a psion uncarnate can make up to three melee touch attacks per day that each deal 1d6 points of damage if they hit. ...Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or “uncarnate”) once per day as a standard action. ...At 6th level and higher, a psion uncarnate can shed his body twice per day for up to 1 minute each time. ...Even while corporeal, a psion uncarnate can use this ability, but only three times per day (uses while he is uncarnate do not count against this use limit). ...Once per day as a standard action while incorporeal, he can seamlessly enter any living creature with an Intelligence score and pass to another living creature with an Intelligence score that is within line of sight of the first creature. ...If the character desires, he can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute, but he spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world.

[Nimbus] lasts for up to 1 minute per pyrokineticist level and is usable once per day. ...Once per day, as a standard action, she can use [conflagration] to deal 15d6 points of fire damage in a 30-foot-radius burst emanating from herself. Any creature or object caught in the burst can make a Reflex saving throw (DC 15 + pyro’s Cha modifier) for half damage.

Once per day, she can manifest psionic charm at a reduced power point cost. ...Once per day, she can manifest psionic dominate at a reduced power point cost.

Calling upon inner reserves of knowledge and dedication, a war mind can provide himself with a +2 insight bonus to Strength and Constitution for up to 1 minute. A war mind can use this power three times per day. ...Calling upon inner reserves of knowledge and dedication, a war mind can provide himself with a +2 insight bonus to Armor Class for up to 1 minute. A war mind can use this power three times per day. ...The war mind taps into this underlying energy and apply it to a single attack, dealing an extra 10d6 points of damage. A war mind can use this power once per day.
Psionx
12-03-07, 11:39 AM Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling. Everything stays the same, even in epic-level games; the damage is set, the uses are set, the duration is set. (This, of course, is a problem with a number of other classes, but it seems more prominent in the XPH.)

Doesn't surprise me, the XPH was technically the only psionics book out there, the others didn't really fix much. Which says something about how much WotC cares about psionics.
Artector
12-03-07, 11:42 AM Most likely it was a lack of foresight. I know everyone doesn't play epic games, the highest level I've played to is 15. So 1/day is reasonable.

If you wanted to fix it for epic I'd suggest making an epic feat for more uses of abilities. It'd have to be tweaked for each class and for certain elvels though.
Enchanter_Tom
12-03-07, 12:51 PM It's just...argh. Uses, damage, DC, and everything else need to scale with level. It's almost maddening to think of how useless these PrCs are made by this simple oversight.
CrimsonDeath
12-03-07, 12:54 PM Or just build it into the Epic progression. Every 5 or 10 levels, gain one or more additional uses of the abilities.
Bacris
12-03-07, 01:22 PM It's an easy trap to fall into during PrC design... but yeah, I try to avoid those types of static benefits and much prefer PrCs that have earlier features that get better.

Now, that being said, the Chakra Savant from Hyperconscious suffers the opposite - it's back-loaded, where all its class features get better at the end of the class, but are negligible at the beginning.
Suspect_Unusual
12-03-07, 02:32 PM I want the crack the XPH writers were using. Must've been dy-no-mite. :)
hovnarr
12-03-07, 03:47 PM So the answer is, yes, they were on crack, but a lot better sh-t than those writing the PrCs for, say, Complete Divine or CPsi for that matter.
Suspect_Unusual
12-03-07, 04:09 PM Complete Psionics was clearly written by drunkards. Loss of inhibition is the only possible explanation for "Illithid Heritage" feats. :eek:
wonlee76
12-03-07, 04:20 PM A lot of things in epic level games is DM's discretion or creation. Its very rare to see in any book "epic progressions" for the prestige classes in the books. They give "guidelines" on how to create epic progressions though.

When it comes to X/day abilities in a prestige class with 10 levels, I would simply give an additional X uses at level X minus 10 of the ability. I believe this is written down somewhere in the Epic Handbook when it comes to prestige classes or maybe I saw it in Complete Warrior or something.

Example:
An elocater of 3rd level or higher can slip psionically between spaces as if using the psionic dimension door power, once per day. An elocator can use this ability once more per day at every 10 levels above leverl 3 (Level 13, 23, 33, etc.).

When she attains 10th level, an elocater can accelerate herself and thereby take more actions than normal. An elocater can accelerate herself for a total of 5 rounds per day. At every 10 levels above level 10, she can accerlate herself for an additional 5 rounds per day (level 20, level 30, etc.).

Psionic Prestige Classes aren't the only class that has X/day abilities you know (Arcane trickster's sudden sneak attack ability is another prestige class that has an X/day limitation).
CrimsonDeath
12-03-07, 05:49 PM Psionic Prestige Classes aren't the only class that has X/day abilities you know (Arcane trickster's sudden sneak attack ability is another prestige class that has an X/day limitation).

Yeah, but Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack aren't introduced at the maximum number of uses per day. The character gets each ability 1/day at first and then gains more uses as the class progresses, pre-Epic.
Sagetim
12-04-07, 02:41 AM Just felt that it was funny that you mentioned the metamind. Especially since there's the unlimited power points for life trick that was mentioned a while back. I think it was something like get font of power and use temporal reiteration, along with schism. Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can blow **** up for free all day long.
ArcTan
12-04-07, 02:53 AM Epic was already being phased out by the time of the 3.5 transition, which pre-dates the XPH. Notice how little anyone says about anything Epic now, and the stated intention to get rid of the concept of open-ended Epic games in 4e (where there will be a hard level cap of 30).
Bacris
12-04-07, 09:32 AM Just felt that it was funny that you mentioned the metamind. Especially since there's the unlimited power points for life trick that was mentioned a while back. I think it was something like get font of power and use temporal reiteration, along with schism. Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can blow **** up for free all day long.

Yay! So I get 9 levels of complete crap to pull off an infinite PP trick that my DM will slam with the nerfbat as soon as I try it! Hooray for me!

I'm sorry, but I have to wonder about people who think that such a justification makes those 9 levels of complete suck worth it.
zuul88
12-08-07, 03:01 AM Yay! So I get 9 levels of complete crap to pull off an infinite PP trick that my DM will slam with the nerfbat as soon as I try it! Hooray for me!

I'm sorry, but I have to wonder about people who think that such a justification makes those 9 levels of complete suck worth it.

Words of Wisdom!!!!!! The only poster more spot on then Bacris is Tempest Himself.

Respect
Nathan
Nom
12-08-07, 09:01 AM Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling.Actually, it's a flaw in many other 3.5 game mechanics as well. 3.5 is a mish-mash of constant, linearly scaling and quadratically scaling abilities.
Lycanthromancer
12-08-07, 11:39 AM Take metamind once you hit epic.

Then it's made of EPIC WIN.
AntiDjinn
12-08-07, 04:30 PM I think a big problem with 3.5 PrC design is that the authors are not always thinking in terms of overall character level. So a designer might give a PrC a 4th level special, usable 3X/day, that is a good, balanced ability for a 4th level character, but forget that the average character will be 9th or 10th level when he actually gains it. For example, Font of Power probably seemed, on paper, to be a strong ability for a 10th level metamind. But by the time you get it, you are 16th level (and only manifesting at 11th level, only knowing powers up to 6th level) assuming psion5/metamind10. More importantly, the rest of your party is also around level 16 and facing challenges in the 14-18 CR range. So you are starting to see effects like Power Word: Kill, Body of Iron, Mind Blank, and Disjunction being tossed around and the best you can do in response is suck for free for one minute out of each day. I would rather go psion for all those levels and pay full price for powers that actually get the job done.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
12-08-07, 07:39 PM Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can suck for free all day long.

Fixed it for you. Unlimited uses don't make you incredibly powerful. Take the warlock for example. Or reserve feats. Using that trick, the metamind is just a complicated warlock. Who still sucks. He just sucks for free all day long, rather than for one minute. Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind.
CrimsonDeath
12-08-07, 08:15 PM Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind.
Well, for one thing, each of the six disciplines had a different primary manifesting ability score, giving psions and psychic warriors the worst case of MAD in the history of D&D.

For another thing, psionic combat.
AntiDjinn
12-08-07, 09:28 PM Fixed it for you. Unlimited uses don't make you incredibly powerful. Take the warlock for example. Or reserve feats. Using that trick, the metamind is just a complicated warlock. Who still sucks. He just sucks for free all day long, rather than for one minute. Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind.
The warlock is the master of sustained mediocrity; he can maintain a middling level of output all day. He can keep plugging away with the same average damage and can eventually bring anything down, if it isn't able to shoot back or he has some means to deal with the returning fire.This a strategy that can work well at low to mid levels, but at higher levels, when you are routinely facing opposition that can take you down in one shot, you really don't have all day.

The metamind, on the other hand, is sucktastic for most of the day, and sucktastic for free for one minute out of the day (assuming he even survives the 9 lower levels of the PrC to get Font of Power).

And the 3.0 metamind did not have it better: Powers did not have augmentation options to get a better effect from a lower level power. So the only way to get a better output from a given power was to learn a higher level version. Not getting full ML meant often simply not knowing the power you needed to get the job done, having a poor DC with what you could manifest, and not being able to punch through a target's power resistance. Then as now: If you get killed because the power you manifest failed to affect or simply failed to impress an opponent who was more than capable of producing an effective and final response, then the power wasn't really "free" no matter what the point cost. Add to that psionic combat and MAD and there is no more need to wax nostalgic over the 3.0 metamind than over cholera.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enchanter_Tom 12-03-07, 02:58 AM	Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling. Everything stays the same, even in epic-level games; the damage is set, the uses are set, the duration is set. (This, of course, is a problem with a number of other classes, but it seems more prominent in the XPH.) An elocater of 3rd level or higher can slip psionically between spaces as if using the psionic dimension door power, once per day. ...An elocater of 9th level or higher can use her dimension step ability in conjunction with her Spring Attack feat once per day. ...The use of this ability counts as her use of the dimension step ability on that day (and this ability is not available during a day when she has already used dimension step). ...When she attains 10th level, an elocater can accelerate herself and thereby take more actions than normal. An elocater can accelerate herself for a total of 5 rounds per day. At 1st level, a metamind can manifest any 1st-level power he knows for free (without spending power points) three times per day. At higher levels, a metamind gains the ability to freely manifest additional higher-level powers: three 2nd-level powers per day at 3rd level; one 3rd-level power per day at 5th level; one 4th-level power per day at 7th level; and one 5th-level power per day at 9th level. ...A 10th-level metamind can act as a living cognizance crystal, producing seemingly endless power points once per day, for up to 1 minute. Beginning at 1st level, a psion uncarnate can make up to three melee touch attacks per day that each deal 1d6 points of damage if they hit. ...Starting at 2nd level, a psion uncarnate can become incorporeal (or “uncarnate”) once per day as a standard action. ...At 6th level and higher, a psion uncarnate can shed his body twice per day for up to 1 minute each time. ...Even while corporeal, a psion uncarnate can use this ability, but only three times per day (uses while he is uncarnate do not count against this use limit). ...Once per day as a standard action while incorporeal, he can seamlessly enter any living creature with an Intelligence score and pass to another living creature with an Intelligence score that is within line of sight of the first creature. ...If the character desires, he can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute, but he spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world. [Nimbus] lasts for up to 1 minute per pyrokineticist level and is usable once per day. ...Once per day, as a standard action, she can use [conflagration] to deal 15d6 points of fire damage in a 30-foot-radius burst emanating from herself. Any creature or object caught in the burst can make a Reflex saving throw (DC 15 + pyro’s Cha modifier) for half damage. Once per day, she can manifest psionic charm at a reduced power point cost. ...Once per day, she can manifest psionic dominate at a reduced power point cost. Calling upon inner reserves of knowledge and dedication, a war mind can provide himself with a +2 insight bonus to Strength and Constitution for up to 1 minute. A war mind can use this power three times per day. ...Calling upon inner reserves of knowledge and dedication, a war mind can provide himself with a +2 insight bonus to Armor Class for up to 1 minute. A war mind can use this power three times per day. ...The war mind taps into this underlying energy and apply it to a single attack, dealing an extra 10d6 points of damage. A war mind can use this power once per day.
Psionx 12-03-07, 11:39 AM	Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling. Everything stays the same, even in epic-level games; the damage is set, the uses are set, the duration is set. (This, of course, is a problem with a number of other classes, but it seems more prominent in the XPH.) Doesn't surprise me, the XPH was technically the only psionics book out there, the others didn't really fix much. Which says something about how much WotC cares about psionics.
Artector 12-03-07, 11:42 AM	Most likely it was a lack of foresight. I know everyone doesn't play epic games, the highest level I've played to is 15. So 1/day is reasonable. If you wanted to fix it for epic I'd suggest making an epic feat for more uses of abilities. It'd have to be tweaked for each class and for certain elvels though.
Enchanter_Tom 12-03-07, 12:51 PM	It's just...argh. Uses, damage, DC, and everything else need to scale with level. It's almost maddening to think of how useless these PrCs are made by this simple oversight.
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 12:54 PM	Or just build it into the Epic progression. Every 5 or 10 levels, gain one or more additional uses of the abilities.
Bacris 12-03-07, 01:22 PM	It's an easy trap to fall into during PrC design... but yeah, I try to avoid those types of static benefits and much prefer PrCs that have earlier features that get better. Now, that being said, the Chakra Savant from Hyperconscious suffers the opposite - it's back-loaded, where all its class features get better at the end of the class, but are negligible at the beginning.
Suspect_Unusual 12-03-07, 02:32 PM	I want the crack the XPH writers were using. Must've been dy-no-mite. :)
hovnarr 12-03-07, 03:47 PM	So the answer is, yes, they were on crack, but a lot better sh-t than those writing the PrCs for, say, Complete Divine or CPsi for that matter.
Suspect_Unusual 12-03-07, 04:09 PM	Complete Psionics was clearly written by drunkards. Loss of inhibition is the only possible explanation for "Illithid Heritage" feats. :eek:
wonlee76 12-03-07, 04:20 PM	A lot of things in epic level games is DM's discretion or creation. Its very rare to see in any book "epic progressions" for the prestige classes in the books. They give "guidelines" on how to create epic progressions though. When it comes to X/day abilities in a prestige class with 10 levels, I would simply give an additional X uses at level X minus 10 of the ability. I believe this is written down somewhere in the Epic Handbook when it comes to prestige classes or maybe I saw it in Complete Warrior or something. Example: An elocater of 3rd level or higher can slip psionically between spaces as if using the psionic dimension door power, once per day. An elocator can use this ability once more per day at every 10 levels above leverl 3 (Level 13, 23, 33, etc.). When she attains 10th level, an elocater can accelerate herself and thereby take more actions than normal. An elocater can accelerate herself for a total of 5 rounds per day. At every 10 levels above level 10, she can accerlate herself for an additional 5 rounds per day (level 20, level 30, etc.). Psionic Prestige Classes aren't the only class that has X/day abilities you know (Arcane trickster's sudden sneak attack ability is another prestige class that has an X/day limitation).
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 05:49 PM	Psionic Prestige Classes aren't the only class that has X/day abilities you know (Arcane trickster's sudden sneak attack ability is another prestige class that has an X/day limitation). Yeah, but Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack aren't introduced at the maximum number of uses per day. The character gets each ability 1/day at first and then gains more uses as the class progresses, pre-Epic.
Sagetim 12-04-07, 02:41 AM	Just felt that it was funny that you mentioned the metamind. Especially since there's the unlimited power points for life trick that was mentioned a while back. I think it was something like get font of power and use temporal reiteration, along with schism. Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can blow **** up for free all day long.
ArcTan 12-04-07, 02:53 AM	Epic was already being phased out by the time of the 3.5 transition, which pre-dates the XPH. Notice how little anyone says about anything Epic now, and the stated intention to get rid of the concept of open-ended Epic games in 4e (where there will be a hard level cap of 30).
Bacris 12-04-07, 09:32 AM	Just felt that it was funny that you mentioned the metamind. Especially since there's the unlimited power points for life trick that was mentioned a while back. I think it was something like get font of power and use temporal reiteration, along with schism. Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can blow **** up for free all day long. Yay! So I get 9 levels of complete crap to pull off an infinite PP trick that my DM will slam with the nerfbat as soon as I try it! Hooray for me! I'm sorry, but I have to wonder about people who think that such a justification makes those 9 levels of complete suck worth it.
zuul88 12-08-07, 03:01 AM	Yay! So I get 9 levels of complete crap to pull off an infinite PP trick that my DM will slam with the nerfbat as soon as I try it! Hooray for me! I'm sorry, but I have to wonder about people who think that such a justification makes those 9 levels of complete suck worth it. Words of Wisdom!!!!!! The only poster more spot on then Bacris is Tempest Himself. Respect Nathan
Nom 12-08-07, 09:01 AM	Because I'm noticing a single prevalent flaw throughout all of them: there is no scaling.Actually, it's a flaw in many other 3.5 game mechanics as well. 3.5 is a mish-mash of constant, linearly scaling and quadratically scaling abilities.
Lycanthromancer 12-08-07, 11:39 AM	Take metamind once you hit epic. Then it's made of EPIC WIN.
AntiDjinn 12-08-07, 04:30 PM	I think a big problem with 3.5 PrC design is that the authors are not always thinking in terms of overall character level. So a designer might give a PrC a 4th level special, usable 3X/day, that is a good, balanced ability for a 4th level character, but forget that the average character will be 9th or 10th level when he actually gains it. For example, Font of Power probably seemed, on paper, to be a strong ability for a 10th level metamind. But by the time you get it, you are 16th level (and only manifesting at 11th level, only knowing powers up to 6th level) assuming psion5/metamind10. More importantly, the rest of your party is also around level 16 and facing challenges in the 14-18 CR range. So you are starting to see effects like Power Word: Kill, Body of Iron, Mind Blank, and Disjunction being tossed around and the best you can do in response is suck for free for one minute out of each day. I would rather go psion for all those levels and pay full price for powers that actually get the job done.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 12-08-07, 07:39 PM	Instead of sucking for free for one minute per day, you can suck for free all day long. Fixed it for you. Unlimited uses don't make you incredibly powerful. Take the warlock for example. Or reserve feats. Using that trick, the metamind is just a complicated warlock. Who still sucks. He just sucks for free all day long, rather than for one minute. Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind.
CrimsonDeath 12-08-07, 08:15 PM	Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind. Well, for one thing, each of the six disciplines had a different primary manifesting ability score, giving psions and psychic warriors the worst case of MAD in the history of D&D. For another thing, psionic combat.
AntiDjinn 12-08-07, 09:28 PM	Fixed it for you. Unlimited uses don't make you incredibly powerful. Take the warlock for example. Or reserve feats. Using that trick, the metamind is just a complicated warlock. Who still sucks. He just sucks for free all day long, rather than for one minute. Out of curiosity, I once checked the 3.0 srd for psionics to see just what was so bad (I was bored and curious about psionic combat). It looks like 3.0 psionics actually had a better metamind. The warlock is the master of sustained mediocrity; he can maintain a middling level of output all day. He can keep plugging away with the same average damage and can eventually bring anything down, if it isn't able to shoot back or he has some means to deal with the returning fire.This a strategy that can work well at low to mid levels, but at higher levels, when you are routinely facing opposition that can take you down in one shot, you really don't have all day. The metamind, on the other hand, is sucktastic for most of the day, and sucktastic for free for one minute out of the day (assuming he even survives the 9 lower levels of the PrC to get Font of Power). And the 3.0 metamind did not have it better: Powers did not have augmentation options to get a better effect from a lower level power. So the only way to get a better output from a given power was to learn a higher level version. Not getting full ML meant often simply not knowing the power you needed to get the job done, having a poor DC with what you could manifest, and not being able to punch through a target's power resistance. Then as now: If you get killed because the power you manifest failed to affect or simply failed to impress an opponent who was more than capable of producing an effective and final response, then the power wasn't really "free" no matter what the point cost. Add to that psionic combat and MAD and there is no more need to wax nostalgic over the 3.0 metamind than over cholera.