Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meikle_641 07-19-07, 09:53 AM	Hello there, this is my first time posting in the Psionics forum, so please be gentle. This past weekend at ConnectiCon I managed to buy a copy of the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, as I wanted to know how the Talents worked seeing as XPH did away with them. Now, I have a few questions about the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 for Psionics, so please bear with me. 1: If I'm going to change some of the crappier 3.5 level 1 powers back down to level 0, should I just go by their 3.0 classifications if applicable? 2: I happened to stumble upon the fact that 3.0 psions actually used different stats for manifesting for each discipline, which to me (and my friend) sounds very interesting. We like the idea that it makes all the different psions more varied, rather than just all smart people. Egoists are tough due to high Con, Nomads are dexterous, Telepaths are charming, etc. So, why did they change it exactly? Was it to simplify things by using a unified manifesting stat? If I change it back to the old method for my eventual homebrew campaign and go back to 4+Int skill points, will it negatively affect the game? 3: The Psionic feat Inertial Armour seems interesting to me so I figured I'd also ask about it. On first glance it made me think it was rather broken, "What? +4 AC at all times as long as you have at least 1 PP?!", but then I thought a little more. While yes, you are benefiting from a free AC boost, it goes away if you run out of PP, which is easy given how PsyWars and Psions can hemorrhage the stuff. And besides, there are other precedents for keeping (or bringing back, rather) such a thing. Such as the Dragonscale Husk class ability from Dragon Magic , the newer Reserve Feats from CAr, the Body feats for Warforged, or even the lowly Shield/Light Armour Proficiency feats. So, my thought is that it and similar feats could [I] potentially be brought back, but would they need some more tweaks? Such as maybe 4+ PP for it to be up, or perhaps only while psionically focused, or both? 4: Is there a power that approximates the Stone Shape spell? I'd hope there is, given psionic folks use a helluva lot of crystals and what have you in their daily lives. Maybe there is, but I'm sometimes selectively blind and deaf. >_> 5: If I bring Talents back, should the feat Hidden Talent from the XPH be modified for Talents only, rather that a 1st level power? And if so, should be it grant more powers, or merely 1 and 2 PP? The latter seems to put it on par with the cantrip SLAs feats in CAr, or Dragonmarked feats from Eberron. I think that's everything I wanted to ask at the moment. Thanks in advance.
Tempest Stormwind 07-19-07, 10:58 AM	This past weekend at ConnectiCon I managed to buy a copy of the 3.0 Psionics HandbookOh, you poor thing. Seek a priest ASAP. ;) 1: If I'm going to change some of the crappier 3.5 level 1 powers back down to level 0, should I just go by their 3.0 classifications if applicable?I'd do a quick search for how we've interpreted talents. The simplest one I've seen is manifesting a 1st level power that you know at the equivalent of 1pp, locked at ML 1, by expending focus instead of spending a power point. There were very few talents in 3.0 that were actually worth using in general; the best were ones like Detect Psionics, Inkling (if you were indecisive and/or high-level), and the Mind's Eye's Ectoplasmic Strand (which is really almost good enough for a 1st level power). 2: I happened to stumble upon the fact that 3.0 psions actually used different stats for manifesting for each discipline, which to me (and my friend) sounds very interesting. We like the idea that it makes all the different psions more varied, rather than just all smart people. Egoists are tough due to high Con, Nomads are dexterous, Telepaths are charming, etc. So, why did they change it exactly? Was it to simplify things by using a unified manifesting stat? If I change it back to the old method for my eventual homebrew campaign and go back to 4+Int skill points, will it negatively affect the game? Not only was it to simplify things, it was to remove the worst MAD this game has ever seen. Here's a quick example. When I made my favorite character, a shaper, in 3.0, her ability score array was rolled as 10/13/14/18/11/12. This character pretty much could only use metacreativity effects. She was limited to level 3 effects in psychoportation (so no teleporting, not even Dimension Door), level 4 effects in psychokinesis (so no telekinesis), level 1 clairsentient effects, level 2 telepathy effects, and only talents on psychometabolism. And this was the equivalent of 36 point-buy -- you know, very high power. Now *imagine* making one on just the elite array. This was compounded by other factors (such as powers not scaling) to make psions generally very, very bad. Psychic Warriors were in a similar boat, but they didn't even get bonus power points! If Thoughts Could Kill, an adventure by Bruce Cordell, introduced a concept called "secondary disciplines" to ease this somewhat -- for instance, the shaper I mentioned above could have chosen psychometabolism and telepathy as her "secondary disciplines", meaning that she'd use her Int score (from her primary discipline) to set the DCs and max level available for her psychometabolism and telepathy powers. This *seemed* like a good idea... until you actually looked at effects like Polymorph, which could enable you to gain something like 35, 40, or more Strength. In other words, an egoist who picked telepathy as a secondary could have a DC for all the telepathy save-or-screw powers that was ludicrously high even for 3.0's comparatively higher spell DCs. Do you want this in your game? 3: The Psionic feat Inertial Armor seems interesting to me so I figured I'd also ask about it. On first glance it made me think it was rather broken, "What? +4 AC at all times as long as you have at least 1 PP?!", but then I thought a little more. While yes, you are benefiting from a free AC boost, it goes away if you run out of PP, which is easy given how PsyWars and Psions can hemorrhage the stuff. And besides, there are other precedents for keeping (or bringing back, rather) such a thing. Such as the Dragonscale Husk class ability from Dragon Magic , the newer Reserve Feats from CAr, the Body feats for Warforged, or even the lowly Shield Armor/Light Armor Proficiency feats. So, my thought is that it and similar feats could [I] potentially be brought back, but would they need some more tweaks? Such as maybe 4+ PP for it to be up, or perhaps only while psionically focused, or both?It was only made a feat because psions got so few power points that it couldn't be justified forcing them to spend a power known on Mage Armor. (Note that this was also somewhat due to the MAD effect -- assuming it would have been a psychokinesis effect, this would have meant that *only* savants could have learned it at level 1!). Furthermore, the thought of making psionic powers scale was alien to 3.0, meaning that Inertial Armor was always +4 armor at the cost of you not using your last power point (essentially, you'd have 1 fewer power point to use, if you look at it that way -- you've spent a feat to have always manifested a particular power, and that power only scales if you spend more feats, which in turn drain *more* power points!). Furthermore, in 3.0, there was no way to be a (Psionic) character without having a level in psion or psychic warrior, or one of the templates in the back (including the Psionic template, which renders the *entire* book moot since it was strictly better and easier to use than either of the classes!). In 3.5, there's naturally psionic races and Wild Talent. If Inertial Armor were a feat in this system, it could show up just about anywhere. I'm also willing to bet that it wouldn't, except in low-money games with monklike characters, since the feat's generally a bad choice. 4: Is there a power that approximates the Stone Shape spell? I'd hope there is, given psionic folks use a helluva lot of crystals and what have you in their daily lives. Maybe there is, but I'm sometimes selectively blind and deaf. >_>None directly, no, although there is Fabricate, which can do similar. 5: If I bring Talents back, should the feat Hidden Talent from the XPH be modified for Talents only, ratehr that a 1st level power? And if so, should be it grant more powers, or merely 1 and 2 PP? The latter seems to put it on par with the cantrip SLAs feats in CAr, or Dragonmarked feats from Eberron. Hidden Talent already only shows up if you've got a high-psi game (a la Dark Sun or a psi-focused Eberron game). Choosing between talents and the original version is dependent on how heavy you want that focus. I'd suggest leaving it as is, but if you insist on talents, implement them as I mentioned above, which Hidden Talent would enable by default. Hope that helps. And go wash your hands; the 3.0 psi handbook is the physical incarnation of a natural 1.
Meikle_641 07-19-07, 11:19 AM	Whoa, wait a second here... So say I'm an Egoist, which means I have Str as my manifester stat. So you (and the book) say that unlike with the Int thing in 3.5... This means that I need a sufficiently high Cha score for Telepathy powers or High dex for Nomad powers? Ouch. What if i did away with such silliness for my psionic setting? Simply using your discipline's stat for everything, like Int does for 3.5. Would that break things or merely make it usable? I just like the idea of a person's discipline varying like that but yeah... (As an aside, I'd classify it kinda like Eberron, in that lots of people have minor psionic ability, but most people are rather low level. Levels 1-5 being average.)
Tempest Stormwind 07-19-07, 11:42 AM	Whoa, wait a second here... So say I'm an Egoist, which means I have Str as my manifester stat. So you (and the book) say that unlike with the Int thing in 3.5... This means that I need a sufficiently high Cha score for Telepathy powers or High dex for Nomad powers? Ouch.That's how it worked in 3.0, yep. Every single discipline -- not type of psion, but individual SCHOOL of powers -- had a separate key ability score. What if i did away with such silliness for my psionic setting? Simply using your discipline's stat for everything, like Int does for 3.5. Would that break things or merely make it usable? I just like the idea of a person's discipline varying like that but yeah...See my note for "secondary disciplines". What you are asking essentially adds all five other disciplines to that list. It means, in short, that everyone would play an egoist, picking up the occasional EK for powerful save-or-die powers off of the telepath or shaper lists. Let me put it another way. A level 13 egoist could turn into a Firbolg, which has a Strength score of 36. He could then further enhance this to 40 with Animal Affinity or +4 gauntlets of ogre power. These would both last minutes per level, or longer. The save DC of any power he has -- which can include any 5th level power or lower off of any list thanks to his 12th level feat being Expanded Knowledge -- would be 25+Power level + anything extra. Even at level 13 that's just a tad high. (Hell, my illusionist gets 9+spell level, and his DCs are considered absurdly high for their level.) This is what would happen if you brought back differing ability scores and included physical ones. A person's discipline already varies somewhat like that. Egoists have access to a lot of powers that turn them into melee beasts (Str). Telepaths have powers that assert control over other beings (Cha). Shapers have powers that bring things into being a la Craft (Int). Nomads have tons of mobility powers (Dex). Seers are perceptive (Wis). All of these work off of Intelligence. This is furthered more by the class skills each discipline gives you -- telepaths get social skills, for instance, while nomads get mobility skills. And the class still manifests off of Int.
Meikle_641 08-09-07, 05:25 PM	Is there any logical reason why the poor, poor blue goblin gets saddled with a +1 LA for his 2 PP and slightly shuffled stats, while my lovely kalashtar gets LA +1 PP for every HD? Seriously, it makes no sense. Is it simply WotC hatin' on monsters again? The LA has to be a mistake.
CrimsonDeath 08-09-07, 08:01 PM	Is there any logical reason why the poor, poor blue goblin gets saddled with a +1 LA for his 2 PP and slightly shuffled stats, while my lovely kalashtar gets LA +1 PP for every HD? Seriously, it makes no sense. Is it simply WotC hatin' on monsters again? The LA has to be a mistake. I believe Bruce Cordell mentioned, in an interview or something, that it was because he believed a bonus to a mental ability score was always worth an increase in LA. (Apparently, his copy of the Monster Manual is missing page 104, which presents the Gray Elf subrace.) Note that the Blue's CR is still "as character level", just like any PC race. Personally, if I were ever to run a game in which a player wanted to play a Blue, I'd house-rule them to +0 LA, since I don't think one bonus PP is all that game-breaking.
Thakowsaizmu 08-10-07, 09:16 AM	I was sad to see Inertial Armour go as a feat. I really thought that it was nifty. I know why they did it, but still And (I don't remember if the feat version said this or not, but) if it can stack with armour worn or anything like that, really it is no more powerful than a chainshirt, and most low level characters can afford that nayway, so I don't really think it was broken. Then again there is nothing saying I can't bring it back...
Lycanthromancer 08-10-07, 01:49 PM	Inertial Amour? Shouldn't that be telepathy?
Tempest Stormwind 08-10-07, 02:15 PM	Inertial Amour? Shouldn't that be telepathy? There's an R in there (Times blends the R and the M together), and "Armour" is technically how it's spelled in English (the Americans seem to be unable to spell a wide range of words without dropping key letters, occasionally as many as half of them).
Lycanthromancer 08-10-07, 02:32 PM	I blame it on mass psychic chirurgery. Also, you appeared to miss your Spot check against that humor (or humour, if you must). In addition: DEATH TO ALUMINIUM! And crumpets. And biscuits. And earl grey tea.
Tempest Stormwind 08-10-07, 03:04 PM	I blame it on mass psychic chirurgery. Also, you appeared to miss your Spot check against that humor (or humour, if you must). In addition: DEATH TO ALUMINIUM! And crumpets. And biscuits. And earl grey tea. It must be said.To the citizens of the United States of America: In the light of your failure to elect a suitable President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Che! ck the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just howÊincorrectly you have been pronouncing it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour', skipping the letter 'U' is nothing more than laziness on your part. Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. You will end your love affair with the letter 'Z' (pronounced 'zed' not 'zee') and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise". You will learn that the suffix 'burgh is pronounced 'burra' e.g. Edinburgh. You are welcome to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you can't cope with correct pronunciation. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". There will be no ! more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you shouldn't have chat shows. When you learn to develop your vocabulary then you won't have to use bad language as often. 2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of "-ize". 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to Cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). You will also have to learn how to understand regional accents - Scottish dramas such as "Taggart" will no longer be broadcast with subtitles. While we're talking about regions, you must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon". If you persist in calling ! it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire, Floridashire, Louisianashire. 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. Hollywood will be required to cast English actors to play English characters. British sit-coms such as "Men Behaving Badly" or "Red Dwarf" will not be re-cast and watered down for a wishy-washy American audience who can't cope with the humour of occasional political incorrectness. 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through. 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "! American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005. You should stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.15% of you are aware that there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders" which is baseball without fancy team strip, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs. 7. You should declare war on Quebec! and France, using nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 97.85% of you who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "5hit". You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because we don't believe you are sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you will require a permit if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public. 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day". 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts. You wi! ll start driving on the left with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour. 10. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't even French, they are Belgian though 97.85% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called "crisps". Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat. Waitresses will be trained to be more aggressive with customers. 11. As a sign of penance 5 grams of sea salt per cup will be added to all tea made within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this quantity to be doubled for tea made within the city of Boston itself. 12. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all, it is lager. From November 1st only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer", and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as "Lager". The substances formerly known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Knat's Urine", with the exception of the product of the American Budweiser company whose product will be referred to as "Weak Near-Frozen Knat's Urine". This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion. 13. From December 1st the UK will harmonise petrol (or "Gasoline" as you will be permitted to keep calling it until April 1st 2005) prices with the former USA. The UK will harmonise its prices to those of the former USA and the Former USA will, in return, adopt UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon - get used to it). 14. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not adult enough to be independent. Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist then you're not grown up enough to handle a gun. 15. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776). Thank you for your cooperation. ...And I'm not even British!
Scion of Coldshard 08-10-07, 06:42 PM	That's how it worked in 3.0, yep. Every single discipline -- not type of psion, but individual SCHOOL of powers -- had a separate key ability score. I actually really liked that aspect of it. Unfortunately for it to work out properly all of the stats would have to be balanced with one another. Or at least a lot closer than they are right now. There are ways to make it work, and ways to ignore the pitfalls, but it really does seem like a fun way to go even if it is next to impossible to balance with the normal d&d game. :( I could go for a well done, intuitive, and deep skill+feat+stat+other based system for psionics. Use a skill, roll well and succeed, roll poorly and have to, for instance, take damage of some type to make up for the difference.. it makes you capable of doing things very tough but at the risk of seriously hurting or killing yourself in the process.. Ah dreams...
Thakowsaizmu 08-10-07, 07:23 PM	Tempest Stormwind, thank you. Thank you so much for that post from Mr. Cleese.
Tempest Stormwind 08-10-07, 07:35 PM	Tempest Stormwind, thank you. Thank you so much for that post from Mr. Cleese. In truth, I haven't been able to actually confirm it was from John Cleese. That does appear to be the popular theory on the myriad websites that hold it or similar versions of it (several of which are not written in Cleese's conversational style), but it hasn't been confirmed by him or anyone else associated with him (sort of like the incredible number of false George Carlin quotes out there).
CrimsonDeath 08-10-07, 08:16 PM	Inertial Amour? Shouldn't that be telepathy? It's a desperately needed defensive buff. It prevents your attitude toward other characters from being altered by any effects, ranging from Charm Person to Intimidate to Diplomacy.
Thakowsaizmu 08-11-07, 08:12 AM	In truth, I haven't been able to actually confirm it was from John Cleese. That does appear to be the popular theory on the myriad websites that hold it or similar versions of it (several of which are not written in Cleese's conversational style), but it hasn't been confirmed by him or anyone else associated with him (sort of like the incredible number of false George Carlin quotes out there). Either way, it was most ammusing.
Meikle_641 08-11-07, 09:04 PM	Well, I'm back with another question. As we all know, the text for a Soulknife's Mindblade has this to say: Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. Well, we see in various pics in standard psionics books showing it as the typical lightsabre-ish look, but in Eberron that seems different. We usually see the Inspired/Kalashtar forming their blades into more metal or crystal like forms. Now, my question is this: since this has only an aesthetic effect, does that mean the appearance is simply up to that of the creator? Would it require a Conentration check or would it be automatic, or for some strange reason take a move or standard action to do? Personally, I kinda like the idea of the solid looking blades to the Protoss like mindblades. What is your take, people?
Tempest Stormwind 08-11-07, 09:15 PM	Well, I'm back with another question. As we all know, the text for a Soulknife's Mindblade has this to say: Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. Well, we see in various pics in standard psionics books showing it as the typical lightsabre-ish look, but in Eberron that seems different. We usually see the Inspired/Kalashtar forming their blades into more metal or crystal like forms. Now, my question is this: since this has only an aesthetic effect, does that mean the appearance is simply up to that of the creator? Would it require a Conentration check or would it be automatic, or for some strange reason take a move or standard action to do? Personally, I kinda like the idea of the solid looking blades to the Protoss like mindblades. What is your take, people? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a
InkBlot 08-12-07, 02:31 AM	The visual appearance of your character's mind blade is completly up to you. It's just like how you can describe your character having red, brown, black, blonde, or blue hair. Many people chose to have their PC's mind blade look like a shard of crystal, or a blade of suspended water, or simply like a normal sword. Infamously, some even have mind blades which look like rubber chickens.
Meikle_641 08-12-07, 02:49 AM	...That has to be one of the most awesome things I have ever heard. A blade that looks like a rubber chicken? HELL YEAH!
CrimsonDeath 08-12-07, 04:08 AM	Infamously, some even have mind blades which look like rubber chickens. And if such characters gain levels in Soulbow, their mind arrows often resemble pies.
Meikle_641 08-12-07, 01:59 PM	As much as I hate and loathe clowns (See my Kalashtar Shaper's "Evil Clown" series of ACs), that...that is so awesome I have to smile. PIE TO THE FACE FOR 1D8 DAMAGE!
Meikle_641 08-16-07, 10:33 PM	Why is it that both kinds of Gith have counter-intuitive ability scores? Wis penalty for a races that likes PsyWars, and an Int penalty for a race that likes psions? Seriously, that's like saying orcs make great wizards and sorcerers. I had more questions, but they always seem to disappear after I come home from work. Blast.
Thakowsaizmu 08-17-07, 01:59 AM	Why is it that both kinds of Gith have counter-intuitive ability scores? Wis penalty for a races that likes PsyWars, and an Int penalty for a race that likes psions? Seriously, that's like saying orcs make great wizards and sorcerers. I had more questions, but they always seem to disappear after I come home from work. Blast. Because Gith like a challenge?
Tempted0 08-19-07, 04:21 PM	Reality Revision will probably work for stone shape. :plotting: