Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 07-20-07, 09:09 PM	Hi all, I'm a psionics devotee - have been ever since the AD&D 2nd Ed Complete Book of Psionics. However, this is my first real experience DMing with a 3.5 psionic character. I'm currently running Red Hand of Doom and the psion in the group is using a number of powers such as inflict pain and entangling ectoplasm to great effect ... so much so that it makes a number of the encounters a little too easy, in my opinion. I'm beginning to feel that entangling ectoplasm is a little too good, especially against flying creatures. Since it's a ranged touch attack, it's a virtual guaranteed hit, and although it does no damage, it slows enemies down and makes them that much more vulnerable to attack, so many of them cannot get away. Is there anything I can do on behalf of my monsters to resist this power? Also, inflict pain seems a little unfair as well. Even if you make your save, you still get a penalty ... The combination of the two powers makes for some massive penalties and has enabled the party to very easily kill several creatures that should have been tough - including a dragon and a hydra. I'm not trying to punish my players for good tactics and such. What I'm trying to do is make for more challenging encounters. These tactics are simply making things too easy. I also have concerns about psychic reformation. The psion wants to take that next time he levels up and I don't have a problem with it ... but I'm just wondering whether 50XP per level reformed is too little. Shouldn't it be a bigger XP cost? I mean, he would probably be reforming 4 levels' worth of skills, feats, and powers, so that's only 200XP. That doesn't seem like a very big cost for what basically amounts to getting a new character! Any thoughts would be appreciated (as would refraining from insulting me, should you feel so inclined). Thanks, Jonathan
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-20-07, 09:43 PM	Hi all, I'm a psionics devotee - have been ever since the AD&D 2nd Ed Complete Book of Psionics. However, this is my first real experience DMing with a 3.5 psionic character. I'm currently running Red Hand of Doom and the psion in the group is using a number of powers such as inflict pain and entangling ectoplasm to great effect ... so much so that it makes a number of the encounters a little too easy, in my opinion. I'm beginning to feel that entangling ectoplasm is a little too good, especially against flying creatures. Since it's a ranged touch attack, it's a virtual guaranteed hit, and although it does no damage, it slows enemies down and makes them that much more vulnerable to attack, so many of them cannot get away. Is there anything I can do on behalf of my monsters to resist this power? Also, inflict pain seems a little unfair as well. Even if you make your save, you still get a penalty ... The combination of the two powers makes for some massive penalties and has enabled the party to very easily kill several creatures that should have been tough - including a dragon and a hydra. I'm not trying to punish my players for good tactics and such. What I'm trying to do is make for more challenging encounters. These tactics are simply making things too easy. I also have concerns about psychic reformation. The psion wants to take that next time he levels up and I don't have a problem with it ... but I'm just wondering whether 50XP per level reformed is too little. Shouldn't it be a bigger XP cost? I mean, he would probably be reforming 4 levels' worth of skills, feats, and powers, so that's only 200XP. That doesn't seem like a very big cost for what basically amounts to getting a new character! Any thoughts would be appreciated (as would refraining from insulting me, should you feel so inclined). Thanks, Jonathan Entangling ectoplasm doesn't paralyze flying creatures or pin ground creatures. You aren't treating it like a tanglefoot bag, right? It also has size restrictions that you must augment to get around. Finally, its range is Close, which means that the psion will have trouble hitting anything up in the air. If a flying creature has Fly-By Attack, this psion is going to have to ready actions for a chance to hit it. Inflict pain is hardy a difficult power. It just imposes a small penalty to attack rolls (and a few other things), which on a successful save are easily mitigated by a bull's strength buff. Again, it's a Close-range power, anything this is useful against is also capable of killing the psion with a full attack or a few rounds of focused attacks. Psychic reformation is necessary because psions can't pick up new spells like wizards can (and don't get me started on divine casters). However, just "feeling" wrong isn't significant, this power can be abused for item creation feats and other weird things. The player probably has only been using it to reform away low-level spells for utilities, right? This is what wizards do too, they just don't do it so spectacularly. Looks like your biggest problem is ranges. This psion's big debuff tricks also entail great risk, because the psion has to be close to use them effectively. While entangling ectoplasm makes it easy to run away after using these abilities, they also only affect single targets. The psion can't use these tactics against larger groups of melee fighters, or a big tough monster with several weaker monsters for backup. One of the mistakes intermediate DMs make is throwing big scary monsters at the party without any backup (this is not a psionics issue, in my opinion a well-optimized psion is nothing compared to a well-optimized wizard or generally-optimized cleric). Follow the organization entries, and add weak fodder to "boss fights" to keep combat more interesting and varied.
pukunui 07-21-07, 12:13 AM	Thanks for the response, Thomar. I think it's more the combination of entangling ectoplasm and inflict pain. Together they slow down the baddies and make it harder for them to hit anything, which enables the two heavily armored warrior PCs to come in close and hack their enemies to bits without having to worry about them getting away or even retaliating really. RE: psychic reformation - I don't have a problem with what the power can do at all. What I'm wondering is whether charging only 50XP per level's worth of stuff changed is really balanced. It seems a bit cheap to me. The psion doesn't have access to it yet but his player has told me that he's going to get it and use it once he reaches 7th level (which will be next level for him). The other thing about the psion is he's taken the Quick trait, boosting his speed, plus I (perhaps foolishly) allowed him to modify the Mobile Spellcasting feat from Complete Adventurer (he calls it Mobile Manifesting), so he can get in close, use things like entangling ectoplasm, and get far away all in one go. When he's not doing that, he's entangling/inflicting pain from behind the big tough warrior dudes. Regarding your last comment - I am using the Red Hand of Doom module. I have made up a couple of encounters myself, but for the most part I am using what's written in the module. The fight we had last night was against a lone chimera, and I felt it was killed way too easily (in great part due to inflict pain and entangling ectoplasm, which made it so it basically couldn't even hit the warriors and they couldn't not hit it -- slight exaggeration there, but that's what it felt like to me ... :P). The encounter that I made up myself - which involved an ambush by several hobgoblin regulars, two hell hounds, and a redspawn arcaniss - proved to be quite spectacular and possibly the highlight of the adventure so far ... for both me and for my players. I have had the NPC cleric decide to leave the party to do some soulsearching (it fit with the story but it also enabled me to get rid of her so I can see how they fair without her uber-maximized healing abilities ... If the chimera encounter is anything to go by, they'll fair all too well without her. I may have to start beefing up the bad guys in Red Hand of Doom.)
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-21-07, 12:44 AM	Thanks for the response, Thomar. I think it's more the combination of entangling ectoplasm and inflict pain. Together they slow down the baddies and make it harder for them to hit anything, which enables the two heavily armored warrior PCs to come in close and hack their enemies to bits without having to worry about them getting away or even retaliating really. RE: psychic reformation - I don't have a problem with what the power can do at all. What I'm wondering is whether charging only 50XP per level's worth of stuff changed is really balanced. It seems a bit cheap to me. The psion doesn't have access to it yet but his player has told me that he's going to get it and use it once he reaches 7th level (which will be next level for him). The other thing about the psion is he's taken the Quick trait, boosting his speed, plus I (perhaps foolishly) allowed him to modify the Mobile Spellcasting feat from Complete Adventurer (he calls it Mobile Manifesting), so he can get in close, use things like entangling ectoplasm, and get far away all in one go. When he's not doing that, he's entangling/inflicting pain from behind the big tough warrior dudes. Regarding your last comment - I am using the Red Hand of Doom module. I have made up a couple of encounters myself, but for the most part I am using what's written in the module. The fight we had last night was against a lone chimera, and I felt it was killed way too easily (in great part due to inflict pain and entangling ectoplasm, which made it so it basically couldn't even hit the warriors and they couldn't not hit it -- slight exaggeration there, but that's what it felt like to me ... :P). The encounter that I made up myself - which involved an ambush by several hobgoblin regulars, two hell hounds, and a redspawn arcaniss - proved to be quite spectacular and possibly the highlight of the adventure so far ... for both me and for my players. I have had the NPC cleric decide to leave the party to do some soulsearching (it fit with the story but it also enabled me to get rid of her so I can see how they fair without her uber-maximized healing abilities ... If the chimera encounter is anything to go by, they'll fair all too well without her. I may have to start beefing up the bad guys in Red Hand of Doom.) Woah, Spring Attack manifesting? That's nasty! He's got to sink three feats into it, right? And those aren't psion bonus feats, right? Ugh, wow. That's your problem right there. Why didn't he just invest in Enlarge Power and Psionic Meditation? I know how to handle that (5' steps each round only, you have an immobilized manifester). Well, anyways... I wouldn't recommend stronger bad guys, I'd just recommend more of them. Remember that the 3.5 system favors available actions, something the party gets a monopoly on when they're fighting a single monster. This is why the Colossal Red Dragon mini and other Iconic Miniatures get multiple actions, otherwise they'd get slaughtered by equivalent warbands. A stronger BBEG just means he's that much closer to killing PCs in one hit, whereas more enemies force the party to think and strategize.
NoldorForce 07-21-07, 01:11 AM	@ pukunui: You've witnessed the Ackbar Strategy in action. Even with published adventures, you may still want to throw some mooks into the battle (potentially recycling some from other battles?). The problem is that multiple characters with actions can quickly overwhelm someone with one set of actions, even if he's stronger. @ Thomar_of_Uointer: He never mentioned Spring Attack. Mobile Spellcasting, for what it's worth, does not require any other feats. And Mobile Manifesting is a straight port of that feat. That's just one feat, and a decent one at that.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-21-07, 01:20 AM	@ pukunui: You've witnessed the Ackbar Strategy in action. Even with published adventures, you may still want to throw some mooks into the battle (potentially recycling some from other battles?). The problem is that multiple characters with actions can quickly overwhelm someone with one set of actions, even if he's stronger. @ Thomar_of_Uointer: He never mentioned Spring Attack. Mobile Spellcasting, for what it's worth, does not require any other feats. And Mobile Manifesting is a straight port of that feat. That's just one feat, and a decent one at that. That's a very decent feat. I don't think I'd allow it at my table, psionics already has powers that let you move around quickly. I might allow it if it required you to expend focus.
InkBlot 07-21-07, 01:33 AM	Mobile Spellcasting requires you to make a Concentration check in order to cast the spell while moving. I believe it was DC 20 + spell level. It's still a very strong feat. I would probably houserule it to require Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites, but lower or remove the Concentration check.
pukunui 07-21-07, 06:05 AM	Well, anyways... I wouldn't recommend stronger bad guys, I'd just recommend more of them. Remember that the 3.5 system favors available actions, something the party gets a monopoly on when they're fighting a single monster. This is why the Colossal Red Dragon mini and other Iconic Miniatures get multiple actions, otherwise they'd get slaughtered by equivalent warbands. A stronger BBEG just means he's that much closer to killing PCs in one hit, whereas more enemies force the party to think and strategize.Yes, I had forgotten about that, so thanks for reminding me. Adding more little guys could definitely help. It'll also give them a better sense of being attacked by a huge army ... because now that I'm actually running Red Hand of Doom, I'm getting the sense that most of the encounters are actually quite small and the huge army is just in the background as this menacing force looming over the PCs' shoulders ... I don't want to say too much because one of my players has been reading this thread (the player of the psion). @ pukunui: You've witnessed the Ackbar Strategy in action. Even with published adventures, you may still want to throw some mooks into the battle (potentially recycling some from other battles?). The problem is that multiple characters with actions can quickly overwhelm someone with one set of actions, even if he's stronger.I am not familiar with the term "Ackbar Strategy." I tried googling it and got a whole lot of Star Wars references ... I'm guessing it's referring to having lots and lots of little guys ganging up on one big guy or something? That's a very decent feat. I don't think I'd allow it at my table, psionics already has powers that let you move around quickly. I might allow it if it required you to expend focus.Hmm. Yes, I like the expending focus idea. Mobile Spellcasting requires you to make a Concentration check in order to cast the spell while moving. I believe it was DC 20 + spell level. It's still a very strong feat. I would probably houserule it to require Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites, but lower or remove the Concentration check.Hmm. That's an option too. I will talk to my player about it. Thanks guys.
hovnarr 07-21-07, 08:35 AM	I think the XP cost for Psychic Reformation is appropriate. Using it a few times shouldn't punish you anymore than that, xp-wise. Using it liberally (for item creation cheese or day-to-day power selection) should be restricted, I think. If player abuse would be a problem, house rule the manifesting time to days rather than minutes, or state that a person can only benefit from it a limited number of times (such as once per level).
NoldorForce 07-21-07, 02:02 PM	Mobile Spellcasting requires you to make a Concentration check in order to cast the spell while moving. I believe it was DC 20 + spell level. It's still a very strong feat. I would probably houserule it to require Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites, but lower or remove the Concentration check.Indeed, the original feat is where the power's coming from. Spellcasters can do the same sort of thing; requiring an expended focus won't change that. Adding prerequisites to both versions in this manner would be best. (That is, I'm favoring InkBlot's solution over that of Thomas_Of_Uointer.) I am not familiar with the term "Ackbar Strategy." I tried googling it and got a whole lot of Star Wars references ... I'm guessing it's referring to having lots and lots of little guys ganging up on one big guy or something?I'd first heard of this on the Malhavoc boards. Somewhere in Return of the Jedi, Admiral Ackbar utters the following:There's too many of them! Focus all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer!
Antendren 07-21-07, 03:10 PM	"We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer."
Jhaelen 07-21-07, 05:23 PM	I think the XP cost for Psychic Reformation is appropriate. Using it a few times shouldn't punish you anymore than that, xp-wise. Using it liberally (for item creation cheese or day-to-day power selection) should be restricted, I think. If player abuse would be a problem, house rule the manifesting time to days rather than minutes, or state that a person can only benefit from it a limited number of times (such as once per level).Agreed. If you're using the optional rule about retraining from PHB2, psychic reformation isn't that powerful at all.
pukunui 07-21-07, 09:01 PM	I think the XP cost for Psychic Reformation is appropriate. Using it a few times shouldn't punish you anymore than that, xp-wise. Using it liberally (for item creation cheese or day-to-day power selection) should be restricted, I think. If player abuse would be a problem, house rule the manifesting time to days rather than minutes, or state that a person can only benefit from it a limited number of times (such as once per level).OK. I don't think the player has any intention of abusing it. He just wants to reformat some poor choices he made early on. He was under the impression that you could do more with it than just shuffle skill points and replace feats and powers, though ... Indeed, the original feat is where the power's coming from. Spellcasters can do the same sort of thing; requiring an expended focus won't change that. Adding prerequisites to both versions in this manner would be best. (That is, I'm favoring InkBlot's solution over that of Thomas_Of_Uointer.)OK. I'll talk to him about making Dodge & Mobility prerequisites. Should Spring Attack be a prerequisite as well? I'd first heard of this on the Malhavoc boards. Somewhere in Return of the Jedi, Admiral Ackbar utters the following: "We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer." Aha. I remember that quote. Thanks. Agreed. If you're using the optional rule about retraining from PHB2, psychic reformation isn't that powerful at all.Right. Fair enough. No changes to psychic reformation then.
InkBlot 07-22-07, 02:25 AM	OK. I'll talk to him about making Dodge & Mobility prerequisites. Should Spring Attack be a prerequisite as well? Nah. Spring Attack isn't a prerequisite for Shot On The Run after all, and it's not like he can spend his bonus feats on this.
pukunui 07-22-07, 04:30 AM	Nah. Spring Attack isn't a prerequisite for Shot On The Run after all, and it's not like he can spend his bonus feats on this. OK. Thanks. If I make this Mobile Manifesting feat require Dodge and Mobility, then should I also make Mobile Spellcasting require them as well?
InkBlot 07-22-07, 11:20 AM	That would only be fair.
Fleem 07-22-07, 02:08 PM	If we're talking about 6th level adventurers, the 21 concentration check should be far from certain, I would think.
pukunui 07-22-07, 04:11 PM	That would only be fair. OK thanks. You mentioned earlier doing that and then either lowering or removing the Concentration check. Which would be better? I kind of favor lowering it rather than removing it altogether because it keeps the flavor of having to Concentrate on spellcasting/manifesting when moving. If we're talking about 6th level adventurers, the 21 concentration check should be far from certain, I would think.The psion is 7th level and has a tunic of steady spellcasting. His Concentration modifier is currently +16. If he had a higher Constitution modifier, it could easily be closer to +20.
InkBlot 07-22-07, 07:20 PM	Since his Concentration modifier is so high, lowering the DC to 15 + Power Level would mean he could only fail the check on a 1 or a 2 (if manifesting a 3rd or 4th level power). This makes lowering the DC practically the same as removing the check. Lowering, removing, or keeping the check is up to you. Was the constant use of this tactic bothering you? Or was it the use of this tactic in combination with other things? If the former, then keep the check as is. If the later, then remove or lower the check.
pukunui 07-22-07, 07:38 PM	Since his Concentration modifier is so high, lowering the DC to 15 + Power Level would mean he could only fail the check on a 1 or a 2 (if manifesting a 3rd or 4th level power). This makes lowering the DC practically the same as removing the check. Lowering, removing, or keeping the check is up to you. Was the constant use of this tactic bothering you? Or was it the use of this tactic in combination with other things? If the former, then keep the check as is. If the later, then remove or lower the check. He's actually only used the feat once. It's more the entangling ectoplasm and inflict pain tactic that bothers me. However, the player has informed me that he intends to get rid of entangling ectoplasm when he uses psychic reformation on his character next time he levels up. I only mentioned the Mobile Manifesting thing as a response to comments that the two powers are only Close Range. I was pointing out that this psion can get into Close Range and then out again thanks to the feat and a 40ft base speed.
Jaid 07-22-07, 08:24 PM	consider this: that's 2 powers, which means 2 actions spent, allowing other party members to excel. a wizard using effective their more effective spells will tend to spend 1 action removing an opponent from the fight entirely, while leaving the other party members no more useful than a portable wall. which one sounds worse? to clarify: your players are using teamwork to form an effective strategy for defeating opponents. this is not a bad thing. concern about a power/spell/ability is justified, imo, when it leaves the other players useless.
InkBlot 07-22-07, 10:08 PM	He's actually only used the feat once. If he's not breaking it, then are you sure it's worth upsetting him to nerf it?
Tsuul 07-23-07, 12:57 AM	I'm beginning to feel that entangling ectoplasm is a little too good, especially against flying creatures. Since it's a ranged touch attack, it's a virtual guaranteed hit, ...Soft cover and firing into melee penalties apply to this?
pukunui 07-23-07, 03:41 AM	consider this: that's 2 powers, which means 2 actions spent, allowing other party members to excel. a wizard using effective their more effective spells will tend to spend 1 action removing an opponent from the fight entirely, while leaving the other party members no more useful than a portable wall. which one sounds worse? to clarify: your players are using teamwork to form an effective strategy for defeating opponents. this is not a bad thing. concern about a power/spell/ability is justified, imo, when it leaves the other players useless. I agree, it's a good tactic. I would probably do something similar were I the player. However, from the DM's perspective, I feel it has rendered a number of encounters too easy. They should have been more challenging - which is not to say that there can't ever be any easy encounters, or that all encounters should bring the PCs to the brink of death. But rather, it made things less fun for me. I just don't like how there's no way to resist either of those powers. If he's not breaking it, then are you sure it's worth upsetting him to nerf it?No. But I do wonder about how broken the feat is to begin with ... I mean, it basically allows you to take a standard action and two move actions. Most other feats in a similar vein (Shot on the Run, Flyby Attack) only allow you to interject a standard action in the middle of a move action. EDIT: What if we made Combat Casting a prerequisite instead of Dodge and Mobility? Soft cover and firing into melee penalties apply to this?Um, yes? But I don't think a situation has ever come up where he's manifested either power when the bad guys are actually meleeing some of the other PCs.
Tsuul 07-23-07, 12:08 PM	Um, yes? But I don't think a situation has ever come up where he's manifested either power when the bad guys are actually meleeing some of the other PCs.I guess it's a difference of group playstyles. Those modifiers often pop into play in my groups games.
pukunui 07-23-07, 03:18 PM	I guess it's a difference of group playstyles. Those modifiers often pop into play in my groups games. Oh, they come into play in ours as well - just not when the psion is entangling baddies in ectoplasm ... :rolleyes: