Sonic energy damage question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sonic energy damage question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GeminiDreams
05-28-07, 11:11 PM Say if I have a group of raged barbarians running towards me and I have a couple Astral Constructs built but they would lose against them.

If I put up a Sonic Energy Wall, or a couple. Once the barbarians run through, would all their equipment and stuff essentially get sonically destroyed, leaving them without armor or weapons?
Deekin
05-28-07, 11:40 PM Not unless they roll a 1 on the saving throw. Gear is not effected except then.
GeminiDreams
05-30-07, 03:53 PM What would happen if you cast Sonic Energy Missile and directed each missile into five pieces of equipment, such as armor, one sword, other sword, floating shield, and something else. Would the items be destroyed then?
Tempest Stormwind
05-30-07, 03:57 PM What would happen if you cast Sonic Energy Missile and directed each missile into five pieces of equipment, such as armor, one sword, other sword, floating shield, and something else. Would the items be destroyed then?

You can't target attended items with a spell or power unless the spell or power specifically says so.
crizhII
05-30-07, 05:30 PM You can't target attended items with a spell or power unless the spell or power specifically says so.

Umm, since when?
Millenia
05-30-07, 05:40 PM According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafte raSavingThrow): "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack."
crizhII
05-30-07, 05:56 PM According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafte raSavingThrow): "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack."

On that creature.

Energy Missile lists objects in its target line. The target section of the PHB lists no exclusion for attended objects. If the spell can target objects it can target objects.

To be fair it should have an (object) tag in the saving throw line but that's neither here nor there.

Shoddy editing in a Psionics supplement, perish the thought...
GeminiDreams
05-30-07, 08:01 PM I figured it would work. Possibly using the Reflex save of the equiped character or monster I would assume, still thinking that the missile was directed at them.

I didn't see anything specific about not being able to target items either. I mean you can Acid Splash a lock. So what if a person had that lock tied around their neck? Can you suddenly not target it?
Kiklio
05-31-07, 11:33 AM crizhII, the Saving Throw (object) line is indeed the critical piece of information in determining whether or not a power can target attended objects. You cannot assume that that line should be in the power description. One cannot make assumptions on the absence or prescence of game text unless something else implies that it should be there.
crizhII
05-31-07, 03:45 PM crizhII, the Saving Throw (object) line is indeed the critical piece of information in determining whether or not a power can target attended objects. You cannot assume that that line should be in the power description. One cannot make assumptions on the absence or prescence of game text unless something else implies that it should be there.

(object) The spell can target objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater.

PHB p177

Energy Missile has object in it's target line and has a saving throw. By definition it must have (object) in its saving throw line. The fact that it does not is an 'error' and should have been errata'd by now.

Regardless, (object) does not say, at any point, that some spells may be targeted on un-attended objects but not attended ones. It says that attended ones get saves and unattended ones do not.

Incidentally, by a strict reading of that text, an attended object targeted by an Energy Missile that does not also target its owner (and by looking at it sideways even one that does) does not get any saving throw at all unless it is magical.

To get a save an object must be 'attended by a creature resisting the spell.'

If the creature attending an object is not also targeted by the spell it can't be construed as resisting it and the object does not get a save.
Ogg
05-31-07, 04:25 PM Wow! I never thought of that, yeah it looks like you could. Not that I'm big into destroying potential treasure but this would come in handy when I know they've got non-magical stuff (I have a permenant Detect Magic running on me all the time).

Thanks!
Kiklio
05-31-07, 09:18 PM I started to make an expansion of my argument in this post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11985532#post11985532

However, the more I looked, the more internally inconsistent Wizards is. Heck, Disintegrate doesn't list a character saving throw in its spell block. You'd think they'd at least use the important "attended" language somewhere beyond the Exploration section. Maybe I just didn't look in the right places. Not the best way to make a rulebook.

Anyways, due to the obfuscated nature of the written rule, one can come to the conclusion that Energy Missile should be able to target attended objects. There will be no definite limit on what you can target, from armor straps to stirrups, staffs to dorjes. From a metagame perspective, this is madness.
CrimsonDeath
05-31-07, 09:20 PM I'd say that trying to yank my sword out of the way of your energy missile constitutes "resisting" the power.
Mattarias
05-31-07, 09:40 PM this is madness.

...Madness? This. Is. PSIONICS!!

... Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

I kid! I kid the psionic-ers! Pyro is one of my favorite classes. :)

...But on a more serious note, yeah, WoTC needs to retool their editing team, a bit, it looks like. Personally, I'd say "why not just use Shatter?", but that's just me.
CrimsonDeath
06-01-07, 02:34 PM Personally, I'd say "why not just use Shatter?", but that's just me.
There's a Psionic Shatter? Where?
InkBlot
06-01-07, 03:48 PM There is no psionic shatter. The closest thing to it is control sound, which lets you focus all the sound to shatter one object or crystal creature. Doing so ends the power.
Ogg
06-01-07, 05:12 PM I'd say that trying to yank my sword out of the way of your energy missile constitutes "resisting" the power.

Which is why it uses your save not the default. I don't see it being any huge deal. I mean you're either blowing up regular or *gasp* masterwork items or magic items (less loot for you).

You're still limited to 5 objects/targets max and you must have line of sight to them so you can't blow up stuff not visible. Great you blew up the barbarians weapons. They are now using your halfling/gnome ally as an improvised weapon against you. They'll take the -4 to hit.
CrimsonDeath
06-02-07, 03:25 AM Which is why it uses your save not the default. I don't see it being any huge deal. I mean you're either blowing up regular or *gasp* masterwork items or magic items (less loot for you).

You're still limited to 5 objects/targets max and you must have line of sight to them so you can't blow up stuff not visible. Great you blew up the barbarians weapons. They are now using your halfling/gnome ally as an improvised weapon against you. They'll take the -4 to hit.
Yeah, I know. I was arguing against crizhII's apparent interpretation of the rules-- an interpretation stating that, if he targets a nonmagical sword I'm holding (but not me, personally) then there is no save at all because I'm not "resisting the power".
Ogg
06-02-07, 02:37 PM Oh! Sorry yeah carry on legitimate gripe! :cool:

Yeah if you have your sword in your hand it gets to use your save.
crizhII
06-03-07, 03:57 AM Oh! Sorry yeah carry on legitimate gripe! :cool:

Yeah if you have your sword in your hand it gets to use your save.

(Don't get me wrong, I agree, that's how it should be.)

RAW that's not what it says.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that the missing (object) tag may be deliberate.

ALL energy effects damage unattended objects by default. The only ones that don't are the ones that can't target unattended objects. I'm not sure there are any energy powers that can't target unattended objects, haven't checked them all, but I don't think that's really very important.

The important thing is that the (object) tag is intended to show that even attended objects have to make a save against the power if it targets the attendee.

The default behaviour is that they don't unless the attendee throws a natural 1 on his save.

A sonic wave does not need to have object in its target line or (object) in its save line to damage an attended object who's attendee has fumbled his save.

Does any of that make sense?

Or should I just get some sleep?
crizhII
06-03-07, 04:03 AM RAW that's not what it says.

I'll answer my own question, PHB p166 seems fairly conclusive that attended objects always receive a save, there's no fluff there about 'resisting' just a straight 'attended objects get saves.'

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GeminiDreams 05-28-07, 11:11 PM	Say if I have a group of raged barbarians running towards me and I have a couple Astral Constructs built but they would lose against them. If I put up a Sonic Energy Wall, or a couple. Once the barbarians run through, would all their equipment and stuff essentially get sonically destroyed, leaving them without armor or weapons?
Deekin 05-28-07, 11:40 PM	Not unless they roll a 1 on the saving throw. Gear is not effected except then.
GeminiDreams 05-30-07, 03:53 PM	What would happen if you cast Sonic Energy Missile and directed each missile into five pieces of equipment, such as armor, one sword, other sword, floating shield, and something else. Would the items be destroyed then?
Tempest Stormwind 05-30-07, 03:57 PM	What would happen if you cast Sonic Energy Missile and directed each missile into five pieces of equipment, such as armor, one sword, other sword, floating shield, and something else. Would the items be destroyed then? You can't target attended items with a spell or power unless the spell or power specifically says so.
crizhII 05-30-07, 05:30 PM	You can't target attended items with a spell or power unless the spell or power specifically says so. Umm, since when?
Millenia 05-30-07, 05:40 PM	According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafte raSavingThrow): "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack."
crizhII 05-30-07, 05:56 PM	According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafte raSavingThrow): "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack." On that creature. Energy Missile lists objects in its target line. The target section of the PHB lists no exclusion for attended objects. If the spell can target objects it can target objects. To be fair it should have an (object) tag in the saving throw line but that's neither here nor there. Shoddy editing in a Psionics supplement, perish the thought...
GeminiDreams 05-30-07, 08:01 PM	I figured it would work. Possibly using the Reflex save of the equiped character or monster I would assume, still thinking that the missile was directed at them. I didn't see anything specific about not being able to target items either. I mean you can Acid Splash a lock. So what if a person had that lock tied around their neck? Can you suddenly not target it?
Kiklio 05-31-07, 11:33 AM	crizhII, the Saving Throw (object) line is indeed the critical piece of information in determining whether or not a power can target attended objects. You cannot assume that that line should be in the power description. One cannot make assumptions on the absence or prescence of game text unless something else implies that it should be there.
crizhII 05-31-07, 03:45 PM	crizhII, the Saving Throw (object) line is indeed the critical piece of information in determining whether or not a power can target attended objects. You cannot assume that that line should be in the power description. One cannot make assumptions on the absence or prescence of game text unless something else implies that it should be there. (object) The spell can target objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. PHB p177 Energy Missile has object in it's target line and has a saving throw. By definition it must have (object) in its saving throw line. The fact that it does not is an 'error' and should have been errata'd by now. Regardless, (object) does not say, at any point, that some spells may be targeted on un-attended objects but not attended ones. It says that attended ones get saves and unattended ones do not. Incidentally, by a strict reading of that text, an attended object targeted by an Energy Missile that does not also target its owner (and by looking at it sideways even one that does) does not get any saving throw at all unless it is magical. To get a save an object must be 'attended by a creature resisting the spell.' If the creature attending an object is not also targeted by the spell it can't be construed as resisting it and the object does not get a save.
Ogg 05-31-07, 04:25 PM	Wow! I never thought of that, yeah it looks like you could. Not that I'm big into destroying potential treasure but this would come in handy when I know they've got non-magical stuff (I have a permenant Detect Magic running on me all the time). Thanks!
Kiklio 05-31-07, 09:18 PM	I started to make an expansion of my argument in this post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11985532#post11985532 However, the more I looked, the more internally inconsistent Wizards is. Heck, Disintegrate doesn't list a character saving throw in its spell block. You'd think they'd at least use the important "attended" language somewhere beyond the Exploration section. Maybe I just didn't look in the right places. Not the best way to make a rulebook. Anyways, due to the obfuscated nature of the written rule, one can come to the conclusion that Energy Missile should be able to target attended objects. There will be no definite limit on what you can target, from armor straps to stirrups, staffs to dorjes. From a metagame perspective, this is madness.
CrimsonDeath 05-31-07, 09:20 PM	I'd say that trying to yank my sword out of the way of your energy missile constitutes "resisting" the power.
Mattarias 05-31-07, 09:40 PM	this is madness. ...Madness? This. Is. PSIONICS!! ... Sorry, couldn't resist. :P I kid! I kid the psionic-ers! Pyro is one of my favorite classes. :) ...But on a more serious note, yeah, WoTC needs to retool their editing team, a bit, it looks like. Personally, I'd say "why not just use Shatter?", but that's just me.
CrimsonDeath 06-01-07, 02:34 PM	Personally, I'd say "why not just use Shatter?", but that's just me. There's a Psionic Shatter? Where?
InkBlot 06-01-07, 03:48 PM	There is no psionic shatter. The closest thing to it is control sound, which lets you focus all the sound to shatter one object or crystal creature. Doing so ends the power.
Ogg 06-01-07, 05:12 PM	I'd say that trying to yank my sword out of the way of your energy missile constitutes "resisting" the power. Which is why it uses your save not the default. I don't see it being any huge deal. I mean you're either blowing up regular or gasp masterwork items or magic items (less loot for you). You're still limited to 5 objects/targets max and you must have line of sight to them so you can't blow up stuff not visible. Great you blew up the barbarians weapons. They are now using your halfling/gnome ally as an improvised weapon against you. They'll take the -4 to hit.
CrimsonDeath 06-02-07, 03:25 AM	Which is why it uses your save not the default. I don't see it being any huge deal. I mean you're either blowing up regular or gasp masterwork items or magic items (less loot for you). You're still limited to 5 objects/targets max and you must have line of sight to them so you can't blow up stuff not visible. Great you blew up the barbarians weapons. They are now using your halfling/gnome ally as an improvised weapon against you. They'll take the -4 to hit. Yeah, I know. I was arguing against crizhII's apparent interpretation of the rules-- an interpretation stating that, if he targets a nonmagical sword I'm holding (but not me, personally) then there is no save at all because I'm not "resisting the power".
Ogg 06-02-07, 02:37 PM	Oh! Sorry yeah carry on legitimate gripe! :cool: Yeah if you have your sword in your hand it gets to use your save.
crizhII 06-03-07, 03:57 AM	Oh! Sorry yeah carry on legitimate gripe! :cool: Yeah if you have your sword in your hand it gets to use your save. (Don't get me wrong, I agree, that's how it should be.) RAW that's not what it says. I'm also coming to the conclusion that the missing (object) tag may be deliberate. ALL energy effects damage unattended objects by default. The only ones that don't are the ones that can't target unattended objects. I'm not sure there are any energy powers that can't target unattended objects, haven't checked them all, but I don't think that's really very important. The important thing is that the (object) tag is intended to show that even attended objects have to make a save against the power if it targets the attendee. The default behaviour is that they don't unless the attendee throws a natural 1 on his save. A sonic wave does not need to have object in its target line or (object) in its save line to damage an attended object who's attendee has fumbled his save. Does any of that make sense? Or should I just get some sleep?
crizhII 06-03-07, 04:03 AM	RAW that's not what it says. I'll answer my own question, PHB p166 seems fairly conclusive that attended objects always receive a save, there's no fluff there about 'resisting' just a straight 'attended objects get saves.'