Soulknife As Challenging Opponent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Soulknife As Challenging Opponent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pukunui
07-10-07, 07:40 PM Hi guys,

What with the general consensus around here being that soulknives are miserably underpowered, I was wondering if it's possible to build a challenging opponent for my PCs using the soulknife class as written in the XPH.

Three PCs are level 6 and one is level 7. They're going to get attacked by some bandit thugs working for one of the BBEGs in my campaign. Most of the bandits will just be fodder, but I was hoping that maybe their "champion" could be a soulknife.

Any thoughts on how I could make a challenging soulknife opponent for a party of 6th-7th level PCs? There's a human fighter, an aasimar paladin, an aasimar cleric, and an old elan transmuter/egoist.

Partly I want to do this so I can use my "soulknife infiltrator" mini but I also am having lots of fun creeping them out with stuff they've never seen in the game before (last session I hit them with a redspawn arcaniss) and a soulknife would certainly fit the bill .... It would also help introduce psionics to some of the other players who aren't so sure about it.

If someone can help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Jonny
Deekin
07-10-07, 08:30 PM Soulknife build guide and Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372176&)

That should help a bit. A spring attack Psionic weapon soulknife with good stealth skill can really put a crimp in some PC's plans.
pukunui
07-10-07, 08:41 PM Soulknife build guide and Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372176&)

That should help a bit. A spring attack Psionic weapon soulknife with good stealth skill can really put a crimp in some PC's plans.Thanks. I had a look at that build guide already but I was hoping for something more along the lines of your suggestion. So thanks for that.

Here's a question: in order to make the soulknife a decent challenge, should I make him higher level than the PCs? Or would roughly the same level as the PCs along with some low level minions be good enough?

I'm just wondering whether a soulknife of equal level as the PCs would really be enough of a challenge or not. This guy won't be the BBEG but I want him to be able to at least get a few good hits in so the PCs are wary of him.
CrimsonDeath
07-10-07, 08:44 PM You could try a sniper. Max out Hide/Move Silently, high Dex, maybe a Goblin or Whisper Gnome, with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Able Sniper. At level 6, he'll be faster than the party (speed 40 for a Goblin or Whisper Gnome), have a range increment of 60', and have a great Hide modifier (13+Dex for the Goblin, 17+Dex for the Whisper Gnome, with another +4 when sniping which nearly offsets the -20, and both races have a Dex bonus). If you bump him up to level 7, his Psychic Strike goes up to +2d8, although both the psychic strike and the hide check after sniping will take move actions, so that'll slow you down. However, it'll give you a chance to move so the party won't get a fix on you (and either version will have 13+Dex to Move Silently at level 6). You might consider outfitting him with some Smokesticks to gain concealment if the party does spot him-- but not too many because you don't want the players to get too frustrated.
pukunui
07-10-07, 09:04 PM That sounds interesting. The goblin's definitely an option but would it be better to use a blue or a regular gobbo?

The old wizard/psion in the group has taken the Quick trait, so he's got a base speed of 40ft himself. I might have to give the soulknife the same trait.

I take it by sniper you mean a soulknife who throws his mindblade?
runestar
07-10-07, 11:31 PM At lower lvs (maybe around lv6?), a soulknife should still be able to make for a viable npc. Around higher lvs, it seems much too weak for its cr...

You could try the soulbow prc though. Free viewing on the wotc site.:)
SlanderPanic
07-10-07, 11:42 PM I had a lot of fun with a soulknife/blackguard NPC I made about a year ago. I may dust her off for the next storyline, given that she survived all her encounters with the PCs. The entire party roster has changed a couple of times since then, so it'll all be fresh to the PCs, if not the players.
InkBlot
07-11-07, 01:31 AM I made a trio of gestalt manifester/soulknife NPCs for a game that ended up not lasting long enough for the Crystal Sisters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsXdEceUhWI&mode=related&search=) to see use. Maybe I'll rewrite them as normal characters for my current game. If I can do their inspiration justice, they'll be a blast.
pukunui
07-11-07, 03:33 AM Thanks for the comments, guys. Keep 'em coming.
CrimsonDeath
07-11-07, 05:48 AM That sounds interesting. The goblin's definitely an option but would it be better to use a blue or a regular gobbo?

The old wizard/psion in the group has taken the Quick trait, so he's got a base speed of 40ft himself. I might have to give the soulknife the same trait.

I take it by sniper you mean a soulknife who throws his mindblade?
By a sniper, I mean someone who makes a ranged attack (in this case, throwing his mind blade) and then immediately makes a Hide check at -20 as a move action (as described in the Hide skill).

The biggest reason not to use a Blue is because of their +1 LA (which I don't think they deserve anyway). However, if you use the Hidden Talent variant Soulknife (that is, he has the Hidden Talent feat instead of Wild Talent), using a Blue will let him use the power he knows one more time per day. Skate might be a good choice, to help him outrun your Quick wizard/psion.
pukunui
07-11-07, 06:07 AM The biggest reason not to use a Blue is because of their +1 LA (which I don't think they deserve anyway).But how much impact does LA have on a more or less one-shot NPC anyway? It's not like he's going to be a long-term party member or anything.

You never hear people complaining that drow are weak opponents because they've got LA +2 ...
runestar
07-11-07, 06:21 AM You never hear people complaining that drow are weak opponents because they've got LA +2 ...
That is because they make weak opponents due to their cr+1 adjustment, which makes a racial con penalty all the more a bitter pill to swallow.:(
pukunui
07-11-07, 06:26 AM That is because they make weak opponents due to their cr+1 adjustment, which makes a racial con penalty all the more a bitter pill to swallow.:(Touché

I thought drow were popular opponents. Hell, they've even had their very own book in just about every edition of the game!

I was just operating under the assumption (delusion?) that LA doesn't matter for NPCs as much as it does for PCs. How good an opponent is a blue in relation to its CR?
Toxic_Shaman
07-11-07, 07:34 AM I've used a Soulknife assassin in a game before. Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Soulknife 3/Soulbow X can make a great assassin. The ability to meditate for a while to change his weapon enhancements is quite potent for an assassin. He'll make his Mind Blade a XXX-bane weapon where xxx is the race of his target. He is a one shot one kill sniper.

A Bane Mind Arrow fired with the Greater Psionic Shot Feat one round after he casts Hunter's Mercy from a Wand is a pretty awesome attack.

Of course if he's not prepared he's much less devastating an opponent, but as an assasin it works pretty well.
Fafnir
07-11-07, 07:44 AM I've used a Soulknife assassin in a game before. Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Soulknife 3/Soulbow X can make a great assassin. The ability to meditate for a while to change his weapon enhancements is quite potent for an assassin. He'll make his Mind Blade a XXX-bane weapon where xxx is the race of his target. He is a one shot one kill sniper.

A Bane Mind Arrow fired with the Greater Psionic Shot Feat one round after he casts Hunter's Mercy from a Wand is a pretty awesome attack.

Of course if he's not prepared he's much less devastating an opponent, but as an assasin it works pretty well.

I could be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't use wands as a Ranger until level 4.
runestar
07-11-07, 07:45 AM I thought drow were popular opponents. Hell, they've even had their very own book in just about every edition of the game!
Popular, yes. Powerful? Not necessarily.

I was just operating under the assumption (delusion?) that LA doesn't matter for NPCs as much as it does for PCs. How good an opponent is a blue in relation to its CR?
LA is not applied on npcs at all, you use cr instead.
Blues are cr+0, comparable to other base races such as humans or elves. Their strengths are their small size and +2int, but that is really about it.
pukunui
07-11-07, 03:51 PM Thanks for all that, guys.

Toxic Shaman - what are the level dips in ranger and psychic warrior for with your soulknife assassin build?
CrimsonDeath
07-11-07, 04:44 PM Ranger is probably for wand access, Psychic Warrior for a bonus feat and possibly a power known.

Toxic Shaman raises another good point: Psionic Shot may also be a good feat for a Soulknife sniper, although it'll slow down his damage output even more.
Toxic_Shaman
07-12-07, 07:42 AM I could be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't use wands as a Ranger until level 4.

No, all you have to do is have a single level in a class that has the spell on their class list:

Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)

Crimson Death is right. Ranger one was for Track and access to Hunter's Mercy Wands, Psychic Warrior was for the Extra Feat and future Dorje access. I took one level of each. The build is somewhat Feat intensive, but I was playing in a game that allowed Flaws which helped out considerably.

The build progression was Ranger 1, then 3 levels of Soulknife, then Psychic Warrior 1, then Soulbow.

The game also used Fractional BAB which helped alleviate the BAB hit. If I were going to play the build in a game that didn't use fractional BAB I'd probably swap the Psychic Warrior level for a second Ranger Level or a level in Fighter.
Fafnir
07-12-07, 08:59 AM I stand corrected.
pukunui
07-12-07, 03:43 PM No, all you have to do is have a single level in a class that has the spell on their class list:

Crimson Death is right. Ranger one was for Track and access to Hunter's Mercy Wands, Psychic Warrior was for the Extra Feat and future Dorje access. I took one level of each. The build is somewhat Feat intensive, but I was playing in a game that allowed Flaws which helped out considerably.

The build progression was Ranger 1, then 3 levels of Soulknife, then Psychic Warrior 1, then Soulbow.

The game also used Fractional BAB which helped alleviate the BAB hit. If I were going to play the build in a game that didn't use fractional BAB I'd probably swap the Psychic Warrior level for a second Ranger Level or a level in Fighter.
OK. Thanks for clearing that up, Toxic Shaman.

I'll let you guys know what I end up deciding to do. I'll probably need this guy for next week's session if not the one after that, so I've got a bit of time to create him.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 07-10-07, 07:40 PM	Hi guys, What with the general consensus around here being that soulknives are miserably underpowered, I was wondering if it's possible to build a challenging opponent for my PCs using the soulknife class as written in the XPH. Three PCs are level 6 and one is level 7. They're going to get attacked by some bandit thugs working for one of the BBEGs in my campaign. Most of the bandits will just be fodder, but I was hoping that maybe their "champion" could be a soulknife. Any thoughts on how I could make a challenging soulknife opponent for a party of 6th-7th level PCs? There's a human fighter, an aasimar paladin, an aasimar cleric, and an old elan transmuter/egoist. Partly I want to do this so I can use my "soulknife infiltrator" mini but I also am having lots of fun creeping them out with stuff they've never seen in the game before (last session I hit them with a redspawn arcaniss) and a soulknife would certainly fit the bill .... It would also help introduce psionics to some of the other players who aren't so sure about it. If someone can help, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Jonny
Deekin 07-10-07, 08:30 PM	Soulknife build guide and Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372176&) That should help a bit. A spring attack Psionic weapon soulknife with good stealth skill can really put a crimp in some PC's plans.
pukunui 07-10-07, 08:41 PM	Soulknife build guide and Compendium (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372176&) That should help a bit. A spring attack Psionic weapon soulknife with good stealth skill can really put a crimp in some PC's plans.Thanks. I had a look at that build guide already but I was hoping for something more along the lines of your suggestion. So thanks for that. Here's a question: in order to make the soulknife a decent challenge, should I make him higher level than the PCs? Or would roughly the same level as the PCs along with some low level minions be good enough? I'm just wondering whether a soulknife of equal level as the PCs would really be enough of a challenge or not. This guy won't be the BBEG but I want him to be able to at least get a few good hits in so the PCs are wary of him.
CrimsonDeath 07-10-07, 08:44 PM	You could try a sniper. Max out Hide/Move Silently, high Dex, maybe a Goblin or Whisper Gnome, with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Able Sniper. At level 6, he'll be faster than the party (speed 40 for a Goblin or Whisper Gnome), have a range increment of 60', and have a great Hide modifier (13+Dex for the Goblin, 17+Dex for the Whisper Gnome, with another +4 when sniping which nearly offsets the -20, and both races have a Dex bonus). If you bump him up to level 7, his Psychic Strike goes up to +2d8, although both the psychic strike and the hide check after sniping will take move actions, so that'll slow you down. However, it'll give you a chance to move so the party won't get a fix on you (and either version will have 13+Dex to Move Silently at level 6). You might consider outfitting him with some Smokesticks to gain concealment if the party does spot him-- but not too many because you don't want the players to get too frustrated.
pukunui 07-10-07, 09:04 PM	That sounds interesting. The goblin's definitely an option but would it be better to use a blue or a regular gobbo? The old wizard/psion in the group has taken the Quick trait, so he's got a base speed of 40ft himself. I might have to give the soulknife the same trait. I take it by sniper you mean a soulknife who throws his mindblade?
runestar 07-10-07, 11:31 PM	At lower lvs (maybe around lv6?), a soulknife should still be able to make for a viable npc. Around higher lvs, it seems much too weak for its cr... You could try the soulbow prc though. Free viewing on the wotc site.:)
SlanderPanic 07-10-07, 11:42 PM	I had a lot of fun with a soulknife/blackguard NPC I made about a year ago. I may dust her off for the next storyline, given that she survived all her encounters with the PCs. The entire party roster has changed a couple of times since then, so it'll all be fresh to the PCs, if not the players.
InkBlot 07-11-07, 01:31 AM	I made a trio of gestalt manifester/soulknife NPCs for a game that ended up not lasting long enough for the Crystal Sisters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsXdEceUhWI&mode=related&search=) to see use. Maybe I'll rewrite them as normal characters for my current game. If I can do their inspiration justice, they'll be a blast.
pukunui 07-11-07, 03:33 AM	Thanks for the comments, guys. Keep 'em coming.
CrimsonDeath 07-11-07, 05:48 AM	That sounds interesting. The goblin's definitely an option but would it be better to use a blue or a regular gobbo? The old wizard/psion in the group has taken the Quick trait, so he's got a base speed of 40ft himself. I might have to give the soulknife the same trait. I take it by sniper you mean a soulknife who throws his mindblade? By a sniper, I mean someone who makes a ranged attack (in this case, throwing his mind blade) and then immediately makes a Hide check at -20 as a move action (as described in the Hide skill). The biggest reason not to use a Blue is because of their +1 LA (which I don't think they deserve anyway). However, if you use the Hidden Talent variant Soulknife (that is, he has the Hidden Talent feat instead of Wild Talent), using a Blue will let him use the power he knows one more time per day. Skate might be a good choice, to help him outrun your Quick wizard/psion.
pukunui 07-11-07, 06:07 AM	The biggest reason not to use a Blue is because of their +1 LA (which I don't think they deserve anyway).But how much impact does LA have on a more or less one-shot NPC anyway? It's not like he's going to be a long-term party member or anything. You never hear people complaining that drow are weak opponents because they've got LA +2 ...
runestar 07-11-07, 06:21 AM	You never hear people complaining that drow are weak opponents because they've got LA +2 ... That is because they make weak opponents due to their cr+1 adjustment, which makes a racial con penalty all the more a bitter pill to swallow.:(
pukunui 07-11-07, 06:26 AM	That is because they make weak opponents due to their cr+1 adjustment, which makes a racial con penalty all the more a bitter pill to swallow.:(Touché I thought drow were popular opponents. Hell, they've even had their very own book in just about every edition of the game! I was just operating under the assumption (delusion?) that LA doesn't matter for NPCs as much as it does for PCs. How good an opponent is a blue in relation to its CR?
Toxic_Shaman 07-11-07, 07:34 AM	I've used a Soulknife assassin in a game before. Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Soulknife 3/Soulbow X can make a great assassin. The ability to meditate for a while to change his weapon enhancements is quite potent for an assassin. He'll make his Mind Blade a XXX-bane weapon where xxx is the race of his target. He is a one shot one kill sniper. A Bane Mind Arrow fired with the Greater Psionic Shot Feat one round after he casts Hunter's Mercy from a Wand is a pretty awesome attack. Of course if he's not prepared he's much less devastating an opponent, but as an assasin it works pretty well.
Fafnir 07-11-07, 07:44 AM	I've used a Soulknife assassin in a game before. Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Soulknife 3/Soulbow X can make a great assassin. The ability to meditate for a while to change his weapon enhancements is quite potent for an assassin. He'll make his Mind Blade a XXX-bane weapon where xxx is the race of his target. He is a one shot one kill sniper. A Bane Mind Arrow fired with the Greater Psionic Shot Feat one round after he casts Hunter's Mercy from a Wand is a pretty awesome attack. Of course if he's not prepared he's much less devastating an opponent, but as an assasin it works pretty well. I could be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't use wands as a Ranger until level 4.
runestar 07-11-07, 07:45 AM	I thought drow were popular opponents. Hell, they've even had their very own book in just about every edition of the game! Popular, yes. Powerful? Not necessarily. I was just operating under the assumption (delusion?) that LA doesn't matter for NPCs as much as it does for PCs. How good an opponent is a blue in relation to its CR? LA is not applied on npcs at all, you use cr instead. Blues are cr+0, comparable to other base races such as humans or elves. Their strengths are their small size and +2int, but that is really about it.
pukunui 07-11-07, 03:51 PM	Thanks for all that, guys. Toxic Shaman - what are the level dips in ranger and psychic warrior for with your soulknife assassin build?
CrimsonDeath 07-11-07, 04:44 PM	Ranger is probably for wand access, Psychic Warrior for a bonus feat and possibly a power known. Toxic Shaman raises another good point: Psionic Shot may also be a good feat for a Soulknife sniper, although it'll slow down his damage output even more.
Toxic_Shaman 07-12-07, 07:42 AM	I could be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't use wands as a Ranger until level 4. No, all you have to do is have a single level in a class that has the spell on their class list: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) Crimson Death is right. Ranger one was for Track and access to Hunter's Mercy Wands, Psychic Warrior was for the Extra Feat and future Dorje access. I took one level of each. The build is somewhat Feat intensive, but I was playing in a game that allowed Flaws which helped out considerably. The build progression was Ranger 1, then 3 levels of Soulknife, then Psychic Warrior 1, then Soulbow. The game also used Fractional BAB which helped alleviate the BAB hit. If I were going to play the build in a game that didn't use fractional BAB I'd probably swap the Psychic Warrior level for a second Ranger Level or a level in Fighter.
Fafnir 07-12-07, 08:59 AM	I stand corrected.
pukunui 07-12-07, 03:43 PM	No, all you have to do is have a single level in a class that has the spell on their class list: Crimson Death is right. Ranger one was for Track and access to Hunter's Mercy Wands, Psychic Warrior was for the Extra Feat and future Dorje access. I took one level of each. The build is somewhat Feat intensive, but I was playing in a game that allowed Flaws which helped out considerably. The build progression was Ranger 1, then 3 levels of Soulknife, then Psychic Warrior 1, then Soulbow. The game also used Fractional BAB which helped alleviate the BAB hit. If I were going to play the build in a game that didn't use fractional BAB I'd probably swap the Psychic Warrior level for a second Ranger Level or a level in Fighter. OK. Thanks for clearing that up, Toxic Shaman. I'll let you guys know what I end up deciding to do. I'll probably need this guy for next week's session if not the one after that, so I've got a bit of time to create him.