Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angellis_ater 12-21-05, 05:33 PM	So, last time I was trying to remodel the Soulknife I got some interesting replies, the most interesting proving to be the Mindblade Feat-tree (Check the original out here) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7719774). So, naturally I decided to try to improve on these Feats and add some more "versatility" to the concept. Now I am looking for some feedback on these Feats (some mechanics modelled on the Eberron Shifter Feats). -- Development has continued and you can find the latest Feats nicely done and in a layout here: Mindblade Feats @ toosigma.com (http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade.php) Please take a look at it and comment on our ideas in this thread!
carnivore 12-21-05, 05:57 PM	personally i would love to see it REPLACE the current soulknife class.... i would get rid of this part(bolded): Special: If you have the "Shape Mindblade" feat, as a full attack action, you may throw a mind blade for each of your attacks. Each mindblade that is not shaped at the beginning of your full attack is treated as a newly formed and unshaped mindblade. also this part: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical bow. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid longbow composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a bow of a size appropriate for you. The bow can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the soulbow, it dissipates. A soulbow automatically creates up to two arrows per round, so this limits how many shots you can fire. :D
angellis_ater 12-21-05, 06:04 PM	Why would you remove the bolded areas? The part from Shape Mindblade prevents people from throwing Bastard Swords around them, limiting the damage to 1d6. I think it's a great limiter. On the soulbow I partially used the Umbragen Soulknife Racial Subsitution abilities to mold those two feats AND I feel that it is also a great limiter and a good incentive to get Improved Soulbow.
carnivore 12-21-05, 06:16 PM	this part: Each mindblade that is not shaped at the beginning of your full attack is treated as a newly formed and unshaped mindblade. once you shape your mindblade....it stays shaped until you change it...even if you threw it, when you remanifest it...it should still be in the form you last had it for example.......notice this from the Soulknife entry: Multiple Throw (Ex): At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make. if you shape it into a Bastard sword form...all your attacks will do Bastard sword damage when you throw it it dont think you should manifest arrows....or if you do, manifest 1 for each attack you have.....if your BAB is 16+, you get 4 attacks,+1 for Rapid shot...you should be able to manifest as many arrows as you can fire...the same as the soulknife currently can throw :D
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 04:39 AM	I'd rather use an "Improved Mindblade" feat that allows you to retain the form when throwing it, otherwise it feels damn too powerful. Or I could change it to say that you just can't throw the Greatsword form, meaning you can max out at 1d8 which isn't too powerful. If I allow the Soulbow to fire any number of arrows I will have to downgrade it to a normal shortbow as was first intended, so it'll have a shorter range increment and lesser damage.
Xeviat-DM 12-22-05, 04:44 AM	I'm not sure if I can see spending 18 feats on soul knife feats to get the +9 enhancement mind blade that the soul knife enjoys. I'd much rather see the soul knife as a PrC than a chain of feats; it doesn't seem like something anyone could learn.
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 05:27 AM	I'm not sure if I can see spending 18 feats on soul knife feats to get the +9 enhancement mind blade that the soul knife enjoys. I'd much rather see the soul knife as a PrC than a chain of feats; it doesn't seem like something anyone could learn. Excellent point, I had changed that earlier but got an older version when copying it in here. It's supposed to be +1 / Mindblade Feat. The weaponry maxes out at +5 enhancement bonus and a further +5 in bonus effects, but you still count the total feat bonus since Soul Armor and Shield of Thought give you half that amount as bonii. The point is that anyone with a psionic potential should be able to focus and form a mind blade, not just special classes. Either way, I am looking for feedback on the Soulknife FEATS not on the concept since I've already chosen to use the Feats. With the modified version above, does it sound better?
Xeviat-DM 12-22-05, 05:52 AM	I'd like to see the primary feat a little more restrictive. I'm assuming it requires Wild Talent or power points from some other source? I think the feats may be more balanced if they required focus to be held.
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 05:56 AM	I'd like to see the primary feat a little more restrictive. I'm assuming it requires Wild Talent or power points from some other source? I think the feats may be more balanced if they required focus to be held. How about this, since I don't want to entirely remove the mind blade for loosing focus (that would mean a psychic vampire could destroy this feat-chain entirely since you can't hold focus if you have 0 pp). As long as you hold your Psionic Focus, you get the bonus for the Mindblade. Ie, without the focus, you just have the weapon without bonuses, with focus it becomes "empowered" giving you the +X bonus.
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 02:40 PM	Original post edited and slightly re-written. And yes, it required Wild Talent unless the race is psionic from the very start, since Form Mindblade is a [Psionic] Feat.
Sysane 12-22-05, 02:54 PM	I liked the soulknife concept so much better when it was just a PrC in 3.0. Why they needed to make it a full blown class was always beyond me.
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 04:01 PM	I liked the soulknife concept so much better when it was just a PrC in 3.0. Why they needed to make it a full blown class was always beyond me. Exactly WHAT does this have anything with me asking for feedback on the Soulknife feats above? IF you are going to put forth your opinion about the Soulknife as a PrC, please do so AFTER giving some constructive criticism. Thankyou.
Sysane 12-22-05, 04:22 PM	Exactly WHAT does this have anything with me asking for feedback on the Soulknife feats above? IF you are going to put forth your opinion about the Soulknife as a PrC, please do so AFTER giving some constructive criticism. Thankyou. Chill bro. I was just making a general statement in regards to the soulknife which is, more or less, tied to you turning it into a feat progression. If you want some constructive criticism, I'd advise you to maybe look at how d20 modern deals with martial arts and the progression they use for that. You maybe able to alter some that into a similar feat progression for the soulknife.
starwed 12-22-05, 04:49 PM	A Fighter may take Form Mindblade and all Mindblade Feats as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. This is kind of an issue. A human fighter could have a +2 mindblade at 1st level, increasing it to +5 by 4th level. That's way out of line with what the soulblade gets, and probably too powerful. (Although maybe you just haven't applied prerequisites to some of the feats?) In general, +1/feat is probably too good, while +1/2 feats not good enough. Maybe make it +1/feat, but also capped by your character level to prevent it from getting out of hand.
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 04:54 PM	Yeah, some of the Feats are missing prerequisites, but how do you get it to +2 at first level? A Human needs to spend one feat on Wild Talent, one of Form Mindblade (which is a Psionic Feat, not a Mindblade Feat) and can then get one more, which is at best a +1 short sword at first level. Granted, +2 at level 2 is kinda good but still within the "no more than character level" that you suggested. But I will look into some way to limit it if possible.
drunkenewok 12-22-05, 05:20 PM	A couple thoughts: Even though the Form Mindblade feat is [Psionic], and thus requires a pp reserve, I'd probably add "Must have a power point reserve" as a feat prereq for those people who aren't intimately familiar with the [Psionic] feat descriptor The new version of Throw Mindblade is significantly more powerful than the original - the class version allows you to throw any mindblade that you can shape (and retain the shape on rematerialization), which is also the main reason Multithrow is a L17 ability: you shouldn't be throwing 3-6 bastard swords in a round (but throwing just one usually isn't a big deal). Multithrow also bypasses the normal move-action materialize limit, which your feat technically allows at L1. You'll either need to change the ability from the class version, or add another feat "Multithrow" with a hefty BAB bonus and maybe Soulblade Warrior as a prereq On Shape Mindblade, I'm tempted to allow the character to shape it into any melee or throw weapon he's proficient with - then allow Ranged Mindblade (terrible name, but you get the idea) to shape the mindblade into any ranged weapon he's proficient with With the scaling of Enhancement bonuses, a 10th level Fighter can theoretically get a +10 weapon - while he has to give up everything else, it could be potentially unbalancing. The tree at present is hugely dependent on psionic focus - lose your 1-2 pp and your mindblade loses all enhancement bonuses and special abilities - it also eliminates otherwise logical combinations, like the Psionic Weapon feat tree. Perhaps if you change the bonus to +1 enhancement bonus per mindblade feat while focused, and +1/2 enhancement bonus (round down) per mindblade feat otherwise? You might also consider forcing the character to keep the actual enhancement bonus and the enhancement bonus dedicated to special abilities equal (so you can't get a mindblade +4 unless you have at least +3 bonus worth of special abilities). Would prevent a 6th-level fighter from having a mindblade +5. You could also limit the super-weapon syndrome by limiting the total mindblade enhancement bonus to be no more than 1/2 your character level (round down) - would scale nicely, and would allow a character to take a bunch of feats early in their career and avoid potentially unbalancing side-effects With Monastic Blade - is the Monk Unarmed Damage added to the regular mindblade damage? Or does it merely replace it? The former is potentially overpowering, and the latter is probably not worth 3 feats Shield of Thought doesn't specify what type of shield is created (Light, Heavy, Tower), or can you pick? I'm not a particular fan of the soulbow chain - neither the name nor the ability appeals to me, though I can't quite put my finger on whyAs far as determining whether any builds are potentially overpowering, I'll have to spend more time putting the pieces together. Presuming I have time this weekend, I'll try to do some reformatting and prereq/ability editing.
starwed 12-22-05, 05:39 PM	how do you get it to +2 at first level? Oops, neglected the need for wild talent. Still, a PsiWar could get +2 at first level. 2 levels of Psiwar, 2 levels of fighter, and you've got a +7 blade at 4th level, assuming there are that many [Mindblade] feats available. (While admittedly you're lacking other feats, you can take those later.) By capping by level, I meant something like drunkenwok suggested, max of +1/2 levels. edit: Better than capping by levels, perhaps you should cap by ranks in concentration. Maybe a max of half the ranks you have? That makes +2 at 1st level possible, but I think that'd be ok. It wouldn't escalate out of control, and would work with drunkenwok's idea of having enhancement bonus and abilities split up evenly. (Not more than +1 differance between them.)
drunkenewok 12-22-05, 06:44 PM	edit: Better than capping by levels, perhaps you should cap by ranks in concentration. Maybe a max of half the ranks you have?The problem with that is that it really nerfs classes that don't have Concentration as a class skill. The L20 Fighter, for example, would be limited to only 11 ranks in Concentration, so his mindblade would be capped at +5 by this system. Given that I think angellis_ater wants to make the Fighter soulknife build a feasible one, limiting off concentration probably isn't going to work. I suppose you could add Concentration as a class skill with the Form Mindblade feat... Most non-caster/manifesters wouldn't take the feat just for that bonus, and it would allow those without Concentration as a class skill the option to keep up their blade abilities. My only concern is that is does seem to pack an awful lot of useful abilities into a single base-level feat. Thoughts?
angellis_ater 12-22-05, 09:58 PM	drunkenewok: I'll add "Needs to be able to hold psionic focus or have a power point reserve" This version IS changed, you cannot throw anything but the normal shortsword version, the last sentence adds that and thereby differs from the class ability. But perhaps I need to make that clear. I'd possibly allow the Form Mindblade feat to allow all melee weapons that the user is proficient with or add a feat which allows the user to Form ANY kind of weaponry but having to spend a feat on it. This could include the "bow" in the "next level" of forming. Can he really? On the other hand, part of me is saying "Why not?" but since I haven't finished all the prerequisites I might need to look it over. Perhaps adding Concentration as a class-skill together with the feat, adding that half of the bonus needs to be in the form of "additional bonuses" (ie Flaming or Speed) and capping it at 1/2 the ranks in Concentration? That means a Lvl 17 Fighter can get +10, which is hopefully not too late eh? The Monastic Blade doesn't ADD the Monk Damage, it supersedes the normal mind blade damage - scaling as he levels. I was thinking (because of this) that a mind blade would count both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. How does that sound? Shield of Thought doesn't really need to specify it, it's a "shield" that gives a shield bonus of +X where X is 1/2 the number of [Mindblade] Feats. Why? Have I missed some potential abuse? If I add "Improved Mindblade" as a Feat allowing a user to form any weapon they are proficient with that would mean that we don't need "Form Soulbow" but I still would like a better version for the Ranged Mindweaponry... starwed and drunkenewok: I don't think that that would mean packing too many abilities into the Feat considering that this build would probably mean that the PC specializes in using his Mindblade or adds it simply for flavor in which case the bonus skill isn't too much of a bonus either. -- I changed the original Form Mindblade feat to max out at half the ranks of Concentration, allowing a Lvl 19 Fighter a possible +6 enhancement bonus (epic) and this also scales very nicely into the Epic levels. I want to continue discussing a possible "Improved Forming" Feat that would allow the user to manifest any weapon that they have proficiency for, before I remove the Soulbow Feats and add that in.
angellis_ater 12-24-05, 02:16 PM	What about these Feats? These would supercede Soulbow/Improved Soulbow Improved Mindblade [Mindblade] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration X ranks or BAB +X Benefit: You can form your Mindblade into any weapon you are proficient with and it gains the same advantages as such a weapon. If you can use weapons larger than your size would generally allow due to Feats or abilities, you can even form larger versions of any weapon you are proficient with. Comment: The above feat allows for greater versatility and even allows for Exotic weapons and taking the Exotic Weapon Master PrC. Mindseye Archery [Mindblade] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade or Improved Mindblade, Concentration X ranks or BAB +X Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage with your Mindblade weaponry. Comment: I first thought about having just Improved Mindblade as a prereq, but on the other hand this works perfectly well with Throw Mindblade as well so I added that route in. The Bladewinder is always a possibility without even touching the bows available through Improved Mindblade. So, what do you think? Can these (and should they) replace Soulbow/Improved Soulbow? Howsabout the other Feats, are they broken or do they work well? Any one feat too weak even? Is there some mad synergy possible that I haven't thought about? BTW - I was thinking about Flowing Blade together with Improved Mindblade, that could turn into a dangerous Monk. Wisdom bonus on AC and ranged attacks/damage and using Flurry with a Mindblade Crossbow. Should I add something about how fast ammo reforms for the ranged weaponry?
Darklion 12-24-05, 03:20 PM	A Fighter may take Form Mindblade and all Mindblade Feats as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.Let's give the fighter, a non-psionic class, access to a psionic effect without requiring even a power point or the Wild Talent feat? :rolleye2:
starwed 12-24-05, 05:06 PM	Let's give the fighter, a non-psionic class, access to a psionic effect without requiring even a power point or the Wild Talent feat? You missed that the original feat is [psionic], meaning you need psionic ability before even starting down this feat tree. (I missed it too, first time I read the post.)
drunkenewok 12-24-05, 06:06 PM	Note: Quick and dirty comments stolen in a few spare moments while fending off family... try not to be overly critical... ;)This version IS changed, you cannot throw anything but the normal shortsword version, the last sentence adds that and thereby differs from the class ability. But perhaps I need to make that clear.It's not terribly clear from the existing text, and I'll admit a personal preference for the current system. I assume you're making the assumption that all newly reformed mindblades are short sword form, and I think that requiring a two-weapon or two-handed weapon expert to spend a full-round action after reforming the blade is a bit severe. (And thus I support the blade retaining the shape it's given until you reshape it). I also think it's a bit odd that you can use Throw Mindblade to reshape the blade 4+ times in a given round if you're throwing it, but you can't duplicate that if you're just drawing it normally. It's probably just personal preference. Perhaps adding Concentration as a class-skill together with the feat, adding that half of the bonus needs to be in the form of "additional bonuses" (ie Flaming or Speed) and capping it at 1/2 the ranks in Concentration? That means a Lvl 17 Fighter can get +10, which is hopefully not too late eh?Definitely a good idea. High-powered magic weapons in the hands of low-level characters can be seriously game-breaking. I'm not sure adding Concentration as a class skill is going to be consequence-free, but most melee builds I know of rarely find a use for it, so it's probably okay. The Monastic Blade doesn't ADD the Monk Damage, it supersedes the normal mind blade damage - scaling as he levels. I was thinking (because of this) that a mind blade would count both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. How does that sound?So the Monk gets to spend 3 feats to beef up mindblade so it's effectively the same as his unarmed attack? I don't have time right now to look at all the build comparisons, but it seems kinda pricey for the benefit. Shield of Thought doesn't really need to specify it, it's a "shield" that gives a shield bonus of +X where X is 1/2 the number of [Mindblade] Feats. Why? Have I missed some potential abuse?I'd put the same limit on shield bonus as you have for mindblade enhancement - ie a L17 fighter with 20 points in Concentration would have a +10 mindblade and a +5 shield. Improved Mindblade looks good at first blush, though I'll give it another once over after the holiday madness is over. Mindseye Archery seems like it crosses into the Zen Archery territory, and if coupled with the latter it might be a bit too nice to have Dex + 2*Wis added to every ranged attack roll. I'll also try to find some time to clean up the formatting and make it a bit easier to see the feat progression... may help me find more ideas/issues to comment on, and it certainly can't hurt... :)
angellis_ater 12-24-05, 06:09 PM	Let's give the fighter, a non-psionic class, access to a psionic effect without requiring even a power point or the Wild Talent feat? :rolleye2: Thankyou for reading thoroughly. The Form Mindblade feat is [Psionic] which mean he either needs to have inate psionic talents or a Feat giving him power points. Also, if you had even bothered to read through the thread, you would have seen this was already answered and is going to be amended with an extra "Prerequisite: Power points reserve" for all those like you. So, what exactly was your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism?
angellis_ater 12-24-05, 06:28 PM	Some good points. I will see what I can do. It's not terribly clear from the existing text, and I'll admit a personal preference for the current system. I assume you're making the assumption that all newly reformed mindblades are short sword form, and I think that requiring a two-weapon or two-handed weapon expert to spend a full-round action after reforming the blade is a bit severe. (And thus I support the blade retaining the shape it's given until you reshape it). I also think it's a bit odd that you can use Throw Mindblade to reshape the blade 4+ times in a given round if you're throwing it, but you can't duplicate that if you're just drawing it normally. It's probably just personal preference. So, having Throw Mindblade only allow the throwing of one blade per round makes it kinda useless, since everyone will go for Improved Mindblade instead in that case. So, how do we beef it up a little? Make it count as 2 Mindblade feats would equal a +1 bonus, but then Soulblade Warrior and Throw Mindblade would be no-brainers for first 2 feats since they together would give +2 as a total bonus. Feels overpowered. Perhaps have the following additions instead: "If you have Shape Mindblade, you may throw up to 2 mindblades* each round and if you have Soulblade Warrior you can throw up to 4 mindblades* each round" (* limited by your BAB)? Definitely a good idea. High-powered magic weapons in the hands of low-level characters can be seriously game-breaking. I'm not sure adding Concentration as a class skill is going to be consequence-free, but most melee builds I know of rarely find a use for it, so it's probably okay. Well, it certainly makes the "Concentration X ranks" prerequisite easier to achieve for any class, but on the other hand I don't see that as something inherently bad either. So the Monk gets to spend 3 feats to beef up mindblade so it's effectively the same as his unarmed attack? I don't have time right now to look at all the build comparisons, but it seems kinda pricey for the benefit. Which is why I was thinking of removing "Flowing Blade", simply adding "Mindblade (shortsword, longsword, greatsword) as Monk Weapons and allowing Monastic Blade to count as a natural weapon allowing for Magic Fang boosts and Improved Natural Attack synergy. And it wouldn't be effectively the same as his unarmed attack since he'd be getting Enhancement Bonuses and could build on the mindblade instead of his Unarmed Attack. I'd put the same limit on shield bonus as you have for mindblade enhancement - ie a L17 fighter with 20 points in Concentration would have a +10 mindblade and a +5 shield. Sounds pretty good, I think I'll go with that then! :-) Improved Mindblade looks good at first blush, though I'll give it another once over after the holiday madness is over. Mindseye Archery seems like it crosses into the Zen Archery territory, and if coupled with the latter it might be a bit too nice to have Dex + 2*Wis added to every ranged attack roll. No, Zen Archery lets you use Wis INSTEAD of Dexterity for ranged attacks. Either way, that is a pretty good build indeed and actually makes a ranged Psychic Warrior alot viable than it is now. I'll also try to find some time to clean up the formatting and make it a bit easier to see the feat progression... may help me find more ideas/issues to comment on, and it certainly can't hurt... :) Thankyou, that would be Extremely appreciated. Oh, I would also appreciate comments on what "Concentration X ranks or +X BAB" I should have on the feats!
angellis_ater 12-24-05, 06:59 PM	Updates done to the original post. Please read and review! :-)
leofestag 12-24-05, 07:38 PM	Hi. I like the idea of the feat chain quite a bit... I don't know, making a 20 level class out of 1 special efffect seemed a bit much for me. How about combining the cool idea of a skill chain with a soulknife prestige class that offered bonus feats that must be selected from the skill chain? Maybe something that would require a great deal of sacrifice from a PC who didn't have levels in the PrC to get a great mindblade? Just tossing out some ideas, but how about prereqs of Form Mindblade, concentration of 5, and a BAB of +5? The PrC might have d8 HP, soulknive attack bonus and saves, no additional weapon or armor proficiencies, and get bonus mind blade feats every other level. To indicate that those with the PrC are better with their mind blades that even the most dedicated fighter, maybe some of your mind blade feats could be eliminated and replaced as features of levels gained in the PrC. Just some ideas... my apologies if they don't make much sense. Indulging in a bit of Christmas cheer.
angellis_ater 12-24-05, 08:04 PM	Hi. I like the idea of the feat chain quite a bit... I don't know, making a 20 level class out of 1 special efffect seemed a bit much for me. How about combining the cool idea of a skill chain with a soulknife prestige class that offered bonus feats that must be selected from the skill chain? Maybe something that would require a great deal of sacrifice from a PC who didn't have levels in the PrC to get a great mindblade? Just tossing out some ideas, but how about prereqs of Form Mindblade, concentration of 5, and a BAB of +5? The PrC might have d8 HP, soulknive attack bonus and saves, no additional weapon or armor proficiencies, and get bonus mind blade feats every other level. To indicate that those with the PrC are better with their mind blades that even the most dedicated fighter, maybe some of your mind blade feats could be eliminated and replaced as features of levels gained in the PrC. Just some ideas... my apologies if they don't make much sense. Indulging in a bit of Christmas cheer. Nah, not really up my alley. I wanted to have Mindblades available for both the three psionic races of my world and as an alternative for normal races. Making a PrC is going another path (one suggested by many on these boards) since the SK was a Prestige Class earlier on (in 3.0) and was expanded to become a Core Class. Additionally, this allows for a "pure" Soulknife (Fighter), a skirmish-type Mindblader (Monk with Mindblade feats), a "psionic paladin" (Psychic Warrior) and to add flavor to the weaker Psionic classes (Psion for example) by giving them a cool weapon.
drunkenewok 12-25-05, 10:20 AM	So, having Throw Mindblade only allow the throwing of one blade per round makes it kinda useless, since everyone will go for Improved Mindblade instead in that case. So, how do we beef it up a little? Make it count as 2 Mindblade feats would equal a +1 bonus, but then Soulblade Warrior and Throw Mindblade would be no-brainers for first 2 feats since they together would give +2 as a total bonus. Feels overpowered. Perhaps have the following additions instead: "If you have Shape Mindblade, you may throw up to 2 mindblades* each round and if you have Soulblade Warrior you can throw up to 4 mindblades* each round" (* limited by your BAB)?Maybe you could just toss the Throw Mindblade mechanics into Form Mindblade - I don't think it's that much more powerful, and would allow you to add a Multithrow-type feat further up the chain. Another option is to toss some normally ranged-weapon feats (e.g. Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot) into the Throw Mindblade related feats, reducing the number of feats necessary to make a good mindblade throwing build... I also think leofestag's PrC idea holds merit, and won't really impinge on the viability of any of the baseline builds that are currently available. You could make a Mindblade thrower class, or one that lets you get a better mindblade faster and cheaper than with a base build... Or offers some benefit you can't get from the feats (which would be an excellent choice for a ranged Mindblader, imo). Note I'm not suggesting to replace the feat tree with a PrC (as is the usual suggestion) but rather to augment it. (As the Order of the Bow Initiate augments the bow-related feats, or the Exotic Weapon Master augments the EWP feats) Updates done to the original post. Please read and review! :-)Not to be critical, but making revisions to the OP makes it very hard for new people to see where things started and get an idea of the progression, and it's a slight inconvenience for those of us who've been following the thread to figure out exactly what was changed and where. If you could highlight changes in another color, it would be inordinately appreciated... :) I should get to editing the chain/formatting later today or early tomorrow.
angellis_ater 12-25-05, 11:24 AM	Maybe you could just toss the Throw Mindblade mechanics into Form Mindblade - I don't think it's that much more powerful, and would allow you to add a Multithrow-type feat further up the chain. Another option is to toss some normally ranged-weapon feats (e.g. Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot) into the Throw Mindblade related feats, reducing the number of feats necessary to make a good mindblade throwing build... I was thinking of making Soulblade Warrior into a prerequisite for Throw Mindblade and letting the user throw 2 mindblades. Adding in Multithrow as a Feat later in the chain requiring Shape Mindblade we could allow the user to throw 2 mindblades per attack, thereby making it a dangerous and viable option. What do you think? I also think leofestag's PrC idea holds merit, and won't really impinge on the viability of any of the baseline builds that are currently available. You could make a Mindblade thrower class, or one that lets you get a better mindblade faster and cheaper than with a base build... Or offers some benefit you can't get from the feats (which would be an excellent choice for a ranged Mindblader, imo). Note I'm not suggesting to replace the feat tree with a PrC (as is the usual suggestion) but rather to augment it. (As the Order of the Bow Initiate augments the bow-related feats, or the Exotic Weapon Master augments the EWP feats) Yeah, you might be correct. Sorry leofestag, I might have been a little touchy due to previous suggestions in the thread just saying "Make the Soulknife a PrC like it was" instead of providing constructive feedback. Granted, once we get the Feats done, I might even consider sitting down and try my hand at building a Prestige Class. I will look through the Order and EWM tonight and see if something comes up, you got any more suggestions on could "specialisation PrC's"? Not to be critical, but making revisions to the OP makes it very hard for new people to see where things started and get an idea of the progression, and it's a slight inconvenience for those of us who've been following the thread to figure out exactly what was changed and where. If you could highlight changes in another color, it would be inordinately appreciated... :) I should get to editing the chain/formatting later today or early tomorrow. No, I don't mind, but half the comments are done by people who DIDN'T read the thread, so I was hoping for a chance that people might actually contribute more feedback in a constructive way by editing the original post. People seem to read the first post and then make assumptions without looking to what has been discussed. But I will follow your suggestion and in the future all changes will be highlighted using the blue color. Thanks, but don't give up the holidays for some feat-formatting dude! ;.)
drunkenewok 12-26-05, 01:01 PM	Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. As long as you are psionically focused your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration. After that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus cannot exceed a +5 bonus and you cannot have more than half the total bonus as an enhancement bonus. The total bonus to the mindblade cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade and all Mindblade Feats as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats Mindblade (shortsword, longsword, greatsword) as a Monk Special weapon. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you maintains your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your class level before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on your turn, you can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the "Shape Mindblade" feat, as a full attack action, you may throw up to 2 mind blades each round. If you have the "Soulblade Warrior" feat, you can throw up to 4 mind blades each round. This is limited by your Base Attack Bonus. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade or Improved Mindblade, Concentration 7 ranks or BAB +4 Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage with your Mindblade weaponry. "] Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks or BAB +1 Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: Your Unarmed Damage can be applied to your mindblade as well and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 or BAB +3 Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may not be taken more times than 1/3 your level. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 or BAB +12 Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental funtions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 or BAB +3 Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a shield of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. The shield bonus granted by this feat is equal to the enhancement bonus your mindblade has due to [Mindblade] feats. If used to attack the thoughtshield has the same special abilities as the mindblade. The shield bonus is always at least 1. "] When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, your shield bonus increases by +1. "] Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, BAB +6 or Concentration 9 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus your mind blade has from Mindblade feats. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 or BAB +5 Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. You can form your mindblade as a free action. As a fullround action, he can change your mind blade to replicate a longsword (damage 1d8 for a Medium weapon wielded as a one-handed weapon) or a greatsword (damage 2d6 for a Medium weapon wielded as a two-handed weapon). If you shape your mind blade into the form of a greatsword and wields it two-handed, you add 1½ times his Strength bonus to his damage rolls, just like when using any other two-handed weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks or BAB +6 Benefit: You can form your Mindblade into any weapon you are proficient with and it gains the same advantages as such a weapon. If you can use weapons larger than your size would generally allow due to Feats or abilities, you can even form larger versions of any weapon you are proficient with. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks or BAB +6 Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. I'd change the monk's ability to use the Mindblade as a monk special weapon to apply to any form that the mindblade can take - will allow interesting synergy with Throw Mindblade or Improved Mindblade, since I don't see a compelling reason to limit it to the sword-based forms I'm still tempted to fold the bonuses provided by Improved Mindblade (limited to melee forms) into Shape Mindblade - then leave the ability to form ranged weapons as a separate feat (based off the Throw Mindblade chain), or work it into a PrC Mindseye Archery seems awfully nice, and I think it would work better as part of a PrC devoted to archery and/or throwing. The same applies to the multi-throw ability - I'll try to hash out the details of such a PrC soon The existing Focused Shield doesn't really seem worth it... maybe the option to take the feat multiple times and have them stack would make a little difference? Or you could offer the option to trade the +1 shield bonus granted in exchange for an shield-based enhancement that's equivalent to +1 (which you can increase if you take the feat multiple times?) Soulblade Warrior doesn't have much to offer in comparison to Shape Mindblade - I'd probably try to come up with some other benefit to add, though I'm not yet sure what I'm still a little concerned that allowing a Human PsyWar 1 to get a +2 weapon is too much - a regular soulknife doesn't get +1 until L4, and +2 until L6... I'll dabble with some alternative scaling systems, see if I can come up with something elegant... I was thinking of making Soulblade Warrior into a prerequisite for Throw Mindblade and letting the user throw 2 mindblades. Adding in Multithrow as a Feat later in the chain requiring Shape Mindblade we could allow the user to throw 2 mindblades per attack, thereby making it a dangerous and viable option. What do you think?I still think the ability to throw virtually any weapon at a 30' range increment is plenty for the base feat (Throw Weapon). I even think there is a feat somewhere that allows the same thing with normal weapons (Throw Anything?). As for allowing Multithrow to toss 2 mindblades per attack, do you mean giving the BAB+16 characters the ability to throw 8 mindblades as a full attack? If so, I think that's a bit much... (Imagine throwing 8 greatsword-shaped holy shocking burst mindblades +5 - 8x 5d6+Str+5 damage in a single round?)
angellis_ater 12-26-05, 09:05 PM	Slight changes made to some of the feats after consideration. Changes in BLUE.Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. As long as you are psionically focused your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. If you loose your focus you only gain half this amount. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration. After that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus cannot exceed a +5 bonus and you cannot have more than half the total bonus as an enhancement bonus. The total bonus to the mindblade cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade and all Mindblade Feats as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk Special weapon. (normal forms removed) "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you maintains your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your class level before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on your turn, you can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the "Shape Mindblade" feat, as a full attack action, you may throw up to 2 mind blades each round. If you also have the "Soulblade Warrior" feat, you can throw up to 4 mind blades each round. This is limited by your Base Attack Bonus. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade (or Improved Mindblade - should we remove this prerequisite if we change Shape Mindblade?), Concentration 7 ranks or BAB +4 Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage with your Mindblade weaponry. "] Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks or BAB +1 Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: Your Unarmed Damage can be applied to your mindblade as well and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 or BAB +3 Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may not be taken more times than 1/3 your level. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 or BAB +12 Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental funtions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 or BAB +3 Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a shield of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. The shield bonus granted by this feat is equal to the enhancement bonus your mindblade has due to [Mindblade] feats. If used to attack the thoughtshield has the same special abilities as the mindblade. The shield bonus is always at least 1. "] When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, your shield bonus increases by +1. "] Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, BAB +6 or Concentration 9 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus your mind blade has from Mindblade feats. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 or BAB +5 Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. You can form your mindblade as a free action. As a fullround action, he can change your mind blade to replicate a longsword (damage 1d8 for a Medium weapon wielded as a one-handed weapon) or a greatsword (damage 2d6 for a Medium weapon wielded as a two-handed weapon). If you shape your mind blade into the form of a greatsword and wields it two-handed, you add 1½ times his Strength bonus to his damage rolls, just like when using any other two-handed weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks or BAB +6 Benefit: You can form your Mindblade into any weapon you are proficient with and it gains the same advantages as such a weapon. If you can use weapons larger than your size would generally allow due to Feats or abilities, you can even form larger versions of any weapon you are proficient with. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks or BAB +6 Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. I'd change the monk's ability to use the Mindblade as a monk special weapon to apply to any form that the mindblade can take - will allow interesting synergy with Throw Mindblade or Improved Mindblade, since I don't see a compelling reason to limit it to the sword-based forms But I fear seeing a TWF-monk flurrying with a 2bladed Sword of Doom (holy shocking burst +5) At 11th level he gets +3 attacks for a -2 penalty, if he goes the route of Improved Natural Attack+Monastic Blade as well that would mean 5 attacks of 2d8+Str+bonuses... Even worse would the Rapid Shooting Flurry of Arrows be... I'd rather see some kind of way to keep him down. No matter how I try to envision that I FEEL that there is some serious abuse down that alley. Ofcourse, now that I think about it the exact same thing can be done with Shape Mindblade = 2 short swords => Monastic Blade + INA... gaaaah! Wouldn't it make him waaaay too powerful? I'm still tempted to fold the bonuses provided by Improved Mindblade (limited to melee forms) into Shape Mindblade - then leave the ability to form ranged weapons as a separate feat (based off the Throw Mindblade chain), or work it into a PrC I can jive with allowing Shape Mindblade to make any weapon you are proficient with in addition to the three base-forms. We come up with some fancy name for ranged mindblades OR, we could throw out the idea of mindblades ever becoming ranged weaponry and expand on the Thrown Mindblade. We could have subfeats that give ranged fighting a bonus AND increase its range as well. What do you think? Or one feat that adds +10 ft to the throwing range for every Mindblade Feat/enhancement bonus (depending on abuse)? Then we have a better way to handle it and it still feels thematically correct. What do you think? Mindseye Archery seems awfully nice, and I think it would work better as part of a PrC devoted to archery and/or throwing. The same applies to the multi-throw ability - I'll try to hash out the details of such a PrC soon I empathically do not want to make any PrC out of what we have right now. IF we try to make a PrC it would have to come out of a finished feat-build first rather than take over it as it would do now. Yeah, Mindseye Archery is nice, but has a load of prerequisites and isn't really that good except for a few PsyWarriors/Monks. The existing Focused Shield doesn't really seem worth it... maybe the option to take the feat multiple times and have them stack would make a little difference? Or you could offer the option to trade the +1 shield bonus granted in exchange for an shield-based enhancement that's equivalent to +1 (which you can increase if you take the feat multiple times?) Why isn't it worth it? Increasing the shield bonus AND counting as a Mindblade feat seems kinda good if you ask me. A player taking Shield of Thought + Focused Shield gets +2 enhancement and +1 more to the Shield. Perhaps if we add "can expend focus to get +Wis Bonus)? I added something we missed about not having the focus cutting the bonuses in half in the Mindblade Feat description. So, take a hit to your offense and gain a bonus to defense. Soulblade Warrior doesn't have much to offer in comparison to Shape Mindblade - I'd probably try to come up with some other benefit to add, though I'm not yet sure what It counts as a +2 enhancement, that is pretty darn good together with Quick Draw for the mindblade! I was more thinking around the lines of bumping this up to a higher Con/BAB requirement! I'm still a little concerned that allowing a Human PsyWar 1 to get a +2 weapon is too much - a regular soulknife doesn't get +1 until L4, and +2 until L6... I'll dabble with some alternative scaling systems, see if I can come up with something elegant... But why? A +1 flaming shortsword would do 2d6+1 damage, while a greatsword wielding PsyWar would do 2d6. Not that big a difference. I personally see this as being necessary to provide some real benefit for going the Mindblade path. It's easier and cheaper to enchant your bought weaponry later in the game, you can aquire new magic weapons from "loot" and so forth. Going this Mindblade path means giving up alot of feats to even stay "even" with most others, so a little bonus in the beginning hardly seems overpowering. I am sure it could be broken in one way or another, but then we have to look at that then. Right now I feel that if we lower the usefulness and power of the Mindblade we are just designing something for flavor but never usable by players. I still think the ability to throw virtually any weapon at a 30' range increment is plenty for the base feat (Throw Weapon). I even think there is a feat somewhere that allows the same thing with normal weapons (Throw Anything?). As for allowing Multithrow to toss 2 mindblades per attack, do you mean giving the BAB+16 characters the ability to throw 8 mindblades as a full attack? If so, I think that's a bit much... (Imagine throwing 8 greatsword-shaped holy shocking burst mindblades +5 - 8x 5d6+Str+5 damage in a single round?) Ok, allow me to expand - if the user has 2 weapons formed (short swords for example) he can throw each sword up to his BAB attacks. So at best that would be 1 shortsword and 1 longsword, not 2x greatswords. And at around L15-17 where this is both possible and I was thinking the feat would be available I personally feel that it keeps the Mindblader as a good but not overpowered choice - a level where the fighter-classes are usually delegated to the background around spellcasters.
rampant 12-27-05, 02:00 AM	ok a couple of things the shield type needs to be specified so the shield bash damage can be determined the soul armor feat is a little over the top why not allow the chararacter to create an armor out of energy that functions like the armor bonus from a set of bracers deflection is a rare ac bonus and a very powerful one probably best to leave it out unless you really like it why no abilities for shield and armor? one way to do this whole +x with ability y deal might be to take a page from the incarnum book each feat gives you +x to spend on enhancements a number based on your level is the cap for the maximum enhancement bonus and ability bonus when you take the shield feat you spend enhanments on it following the same rule with the same cap drawing from the same pool of enhancement same for the armor the weapon can be reconfigured as normal after 8 hours of meditation the same goes for the shield and armor allowing the monk to take improved natural attack mindblade is probably a bad idea unless you work in a way for others to do so maybe instead of monk levels being the the quirement simply having improved unarmed? bladewind was a bad idea from the begining simply take the whirlwind feat, now since your way takes up so many feats it might be a good idea now but you might want to think on it ok next up some expansion on the splitting a mind blade rules when you gain the ability to shape the blades into any form how does that affect your split blades? can you only split to two short swords? are you limited to two light weapons? whats the call? as for ranged attacks what about rapid shot the speed enhancement or class abilitys that allow extra attacks? something needs tweaking hopefully this helps thank you for your time here is a final thought a feat that allows the character to keep a sort of mental armory with multiple forms and configurations of the mindblade that can be instantly manifested but each conifig in the armory counts against the enhancement pool regardless of whether its in use, this nicely sidesteps the two weapon issue (and the ensuing multi-weapon issue) and is a useful trick in its own right
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 04:51 AM	ok a couple of things the shield type needs to be specified so the shield bash damage can be determined Ok, good point! I will define what kind of shield it is for damage, and it might be good to define if the shield gives arcane spell failure, otherwise it would be a very nice featchain to follow for wizards as well. the soul armor feat is a little over the top why not allow the chararacter to create an armor out of energy that functions like the armor bonus from a set of bracers deflection is a rare ac bonus and a very powerful one probably best to leave it out unless you really like it Yes it is a rarer bonus than normal armor, but it actually has to provide a real benefit to the user. Otherwise they can just get Mage Armor/Inertial Armor which lasts 1 hour/level whereas one power is a much smaller cost than an entire feat. If they don't wanna spend a feat they get normal armor for a little gold. This armor can then be enchanted in ALOT of ways, and can be upgraded. NO-ONE would take this feat, which is the reason it needs to give a real and effective bonus. Therefore it gives a deflection bonus instead of an armor one. Never underestimate the power of buying stuff with gold, an easily renewable source (generally) while feats are NOT. why no abilities for shield and armor? Frankly, because I don't think anyone has thought about it and because it kind of leaves the main idea of a weapon of the mind and expands this into an entire ruleset for mental equipment. I'd rather stay with just armor/shield. one way to do this whole +x with ability y deal might be to take a page from the incarnum book - each feat gives you +x to spend on enhancements - a number based on your level is the cap for the maximum enhancement bonus and ability bonus - when you take the shield feat you spend enhanments on it following the same rule with the same cap drawing from the same pool of enhancement - same for the armor - the weapon can be reconfigured as normal after 8 hours of meditation - the same goes for the shield and armor Same problem as above, then we are moving into the territory of creating an entirely new ruleset, which I don't want to do. allowing the monk to take improved natural attack mindblade is probably a bad idea unless you work in a way for others to do so maybe instead of monk levels being the the quirement simply having improved unarmed? Actually, this isn't US allowing the monk to take Improved Natural Attack, this is allowed by the RAW no matter what we feel about it. My suggestion was allowing the Mindblade to benefit from the same interprentation and allowing a nice combination otherwise restricted to the Monks normal unarmed attacks. bladewind was a bad idea from the begining simply take the whirlwind feat, now since your way takes up so many feats it might be a good idea now but you might want to think on it WHY was it a bad idea, please explain your statement a little more than that. The Bladewind feat was based of the Bladewind Class Ability from the Soulknife and in my opinion it works very well. ok next up some expansion on the splitting a mind blade rules when you gain the ability to shape the blades into any form how does that affect your split blades? can you only split to two short swords? are you limited to two light weapons? whats the call? Good point, I think we need to clarify the rules on how you can manifest more weapons and how this affects them. We can add that manifesting 2 weapons lowers the enhancement bonus by 1 and each additional pair manifested like this lowers the enhancement bonus and special abilities by 1 (to give a ruleset for those Thri-Kreen players). as for ranged attacks what about rapid shot the speed enhancement or class abilitys that allow extra attacks? something needs tweaking Well, that depends on how we decide to handle ranged weaponry. Right now we might throw the bows out of the window and focus on just thrown mindblades (I am awaiting more ideas/critique on that idea) and once we decide that we can decide if the ranged feats can be enhanced "naturally". Most probably we will add a "Mindstorm" PrC class who specializes in throwing mindblades later that can enhance its throwing. a feat that allows the character to keep a sort of mental armory with multiple forms and configurations of the mindblade that can be instantly manifested but each conifig in the armory counts against the enhancement pool regardless of whether its in use, this nicely sidesteps the two weapon issue (and the ensuing multi-weapon issue) and is a useful trick in its own right This was a really good idea. By sacrificing a +1 enhancement bonus a the user can store a different configuration of weaponry and bonuses. For example, he usually uses a +4 Flaming Shocking Burst Greatsword but has spent a +1 bonus to be able to change this into two +3 holy undead bane maces as a move action. Excellent idea and will definitely go into the Mindblade Abilities. Thanks for the excellent feedback and taking the time to read and comment. It's appreciated!
drunkenewok 12-27-05, 01:57 PM	Random tidbit: If we're committed to switching to Concentration ranks as prereqs, I'd remove the BAB prereqs from all the feats. On to the comments: But I fear seeing a TWF-monk flurrying with a 2bladed Sword of Doom (holy shocking burst +5) At 11th level he gets +3 attacks for a -2 penalty, if he goes the route of Improved Natural Attack+Monastic Blade as well that would mean 5 attacks of 2d8+Str+bonuses...So let's take a L20 Human Monk with 20 Str and see what we can build: Feats: Form Mindblade, Monastic Blade, Shape Mindblade, Improved Mindblade, Improved Natural Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Soulblade Warrior, (4 random [Mindblade] feats) - 11 feats total Mindblade Bonus: +9 - holy shock quarterstaff +5/holy shock quarterstaff +5 (+8 per head, reduced because of two-weapon status) Full Attack Routine: +23/+23/+23/+23/+20/+15 Damage per Attack: 4d8 + 2d6 (holy) + 1d6 (shock) + 5 (weapon) + 5 (Str) = 38.5 average per attack, or 231 per round (if all attacks hit). It's a nice combo, but it assumes the DM allows TWF to stack with Flurry (which I wouldn't, nor any similar attack-granting feat like Rapidshot), and without that it's not that much better than a reasonably well-outfitted normal monk. If you're still concerned about it being too much, you could always leave the bit out of Monastic Blade that lets the Monk treat it as a natural weapon. That would give the monk a choice between a cool weapon with his base unarmed damage, or using the normal monk enhancement tactics to boost his INA-augmented unarmed damage. Actually, this isn't US allowing the monk to take Improved Natural Attack, this is allowed by the RAW no matter what we feel about it. My suggestion was allowing the Mindblade to benefit from the same interprentation and allowing a nice combination otherwise restricted to the Monks normal unarmed attacks.I think rampant's suggestion was to change the Flurry prereq on Monastic Blade to instead use Improved Unarmed Strike, which would let a non-monk mindblader substitute his unarmed damage for mindblade damage, and thus use INA to increase that damage. Personally, I don't see it as really necessary, since you can use other feats (Monkey Grip) to get a single size increase for any regular weapon, and without the Monk's bonus to unarmed damage, there is little reason to substitute the mindblade's damage with the anemic 1d4/20 provided by a Medium character with Improved Unarmed Strike. (Thus I'm in favor of leaving the Monastic Blade alone) Ok, good point! I will define what kind of shield it is for damage, and it might be good to define if the shield gives arcane spell failure, otherwise it would be a very nice featchain to follow for wizards as well.Personally, I'm partial to the Light Shield that grants +1 shield bonus to AC and has a -1 armor check penalty and no spell failure, like the existing Shield of Thought feat from RoE. It will also eliminate the need to specify that the feat has a minimum shield bonus. I'm also tempted to treat the Shield of Thought as a "separate" weapon, along the lines of materializing a pair of short swords. Thus if a character with Concentration 20 and at least 10 mindblade feats decided to manifest a shield of thought and a short sword, they'd both have a max bonus of +9 (one less than the normal +10). You could also include the ability to allow shield special abilities, or work that into the Focused Shield ability. The only problem I foresee is that many of the shield/armor special abilities have been revised in 3.5 to offer a set cost instead of an effective enhancement bonus, so you might have to setup a table to allow a Shield +3 of Acid Resistance, for example. Yes it is a rarer bonus than normal armor, but it actually has to provide a real benefit to the user. Otherwise they can just get Mage Armor/Inertial Armor which lasts 1 hour/level whereas one power is a much smaller cost than an entire feat.I'll grant that the deflection bonus allows for greater versatility than just using an armor bonus, but remember that not every character with the mindblade tree will have access to Mage Armor or Inertial Armor, and some (monks) don't have access to regular armor (unless they want to give up the Wis AC bonus). There's also the fact that a ring of protection +5 costs 50,000gp, and can be replicated by a L15 character with Soul Armor (total cost: 9 feats, but all the feats synergize well, and I don't think you'll see many mindblade characters just dabble in the feat tree). 50k gp is no small chunk of change, even at higher levels (assuming you follow the wealth guidelines in the DMG) That said, I'm not sure that the deflection bonus is entirely inappropriate, since it is one of the more common AC bonus types, and it just means you don't have to invest in a deflection item. An armor bonus would tend to make the feat less useful, but I don't think it's that overly powerful atm. Why isn't it worth it? Increasing the shield bonus AND counting as a Mindblade feat seems kinda good if you ask me.Technically, it's actually only a +1.5 shield bonus to AC (as currently written), since the +1 bonus applies directly, but the +1 bonus from being a mindblade feat only counts half (since the total enhancement bonus has to be divided between the actual enhancement bonus and the special abilities, and as far as I can tell, it's only the mindblade's actual enhancement bonus that applies to the shield). If we change Shield of Thought to work like an extra weapon (as suggested above under Shield of Thought), then this feat is no longer really necessary... It counts as a +2 enhancement, that is pretty darn good together with Quick Draw for the mindblade! I was more thinking around the lines of bumping this up to a higher Con/BAB requirement!So soulblade warrior grants the following: Materialize blade as a swift action +2 enhancement bonusWhile Shape Mindblade grants the following: Materialize blade as a free action +1 enhancement bonus Option to shape into 3 different weapon types (or any weapon you're proficient with, if we roll in Improved Mindblade)If you're a feat-starved character, you have to wonder if the ability to choose a bigger-badder weapon would outweigh the extra +1 enhancement bonus (statistically speaking, the bigger weapon is worth more than the +1). The main reason to take Soulblade Warrior, imho, is to get Quick Draw a couple levels earlier, or save a little time so you can take some non-mindblade feats without sacrificing enhancement bonus. I think the best way to change the feats so they don't overlap quite so much is to beef up Shape Mindblade to allow any weapon and remove the materialize as a free action. bladewind was a bad idea from the begining simply take the whirlwind feat, now since your way takes up so many feats it might be a good idea now but you might want to think on itI'm curious to know why you think the suggested feat chain to get Bladewind (which takes 3 feats, 9 skill ranks, and at least CharLvl 6) takes too many feats, while Whirlwind Attack requires 5 feats, two 13+ stats, and BAB +4 (and thus min CharLvl 4) doesn't. And it would be even harder for a mindblader to get Whirlwind, since it would require 6 total feats (the Whirlwind chain + Form Mindblade) and you'd lose out on the mindblade synergy boosting the weapon's enhancement bonus. I can jive with allowing Shape Mindblade to make any weapon you are proficient with in addition to the three base-forms. We come up with some fancy name for ranged mindblades OR, we could throw out the idea of mindblades ever becoming ranged weaponry and expand on the Thrown Mindblade. We could have subfeats that give ranged fighting a bonus AND increase its range as well. What do you think? Or one feat that adds +10 ft to the throwing range for every Mindblade Feat/enhancement bonus (depending on abuse)?Personally, I'm partial to eliminating the option for projectile weapons (only allow melee or thrown weapons) as potential mindblade forms, and shuffling the Soulbow-like option into a PrC. Reasoning: the projectile weapons are substantially thematically different from the melee/thrown in that you're creating both the projectile weapon (bow) and the ammunition (arrow), and I just don't see it working the same way. A PrC that requires Shape Mindblade and Throw Mindblade (and perhaps Multithrow) would make more sense to me, and could add a number of thematically appropriate abilities without requiring a half-dozen feats. I'm also not sold on the ability to do the TWF throw trick and toss 8 (or more) weapons in a single full attack. It seems like a neat ability, and it might be okay as a PrC trick, but allowing a character to get around an entire feat chain to grant an ability that hasn't ever been in the soulknife repertoire before strikes me as dangerous. I stand by my earlier opinion that Throw Mindblade should only allow a single ranged attack per round, and Multithrow as a second-tier feat would allow ranged attacks up to your BAB. If you want to toss more, you'll have to invest in either non-mindblade feats (e.g. Rapidshot) or a PrC. If you're really set on it, I could probably handle changing Throw Mindblade to allow ranged attacks up to your BAB, but I wouldn't go higher. Most probably we will add a "Mindstorm" PrC class who specializes in throwing mindblades later that can enhance its throwing.I love that PrC name... :love: But why? A +1 flaming shortsword would do 2d6+1 damage, while a greatsword wielding PsyWar would do 2d6.It's not so much the damage differential, but rather the ability to pierce DR and harm targets you normally couldn't. Your example also allows the mindblader to carry a shield, which is relatively helpful at that point. Low-level characters tend to have remarkably few resources, and that's what makes low-level play interesting imho. I don't really think it's overpoweringly broken, but it is something that itches in the back of my brain. It's easier and cheaper to enchant your bought weaponry later in the game, you can aquire new magic weapons from "loot" and so forth. Going this Mindblade path means giving up alot of feats to even stay "even" with most others, so a little bonus in the beginning hardly seems overpowering.Quite true, though if your group is dividing loot fairly, then the soulknife character should have extra cash he can spend on other useful items, instead of weapons/armor. Consider that a mindblader with 10 effective mindblade feats (with Shield of Thought and Soul Armor included) has the equivalent of 175,000+ gp worth of gear. I don't have the DMG wealth tables handy, but I'm pretty sure that's a substantial percentage of a L20 character's average cash, and he can spend that saved 175k on other toys. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a fullround action, he can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional blade causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 3 lower than the bonus with a single blade.)I'm not entirely certain that the reduction of bonus is necessary, given that the TWF chain requires you to spend a slew of extra feats (which then can't be used on mindblade feats), and you still get the standard TWF penalties. I may spend some time crunching the numbers, just to see what the output comparison is between TWF, 2H, and Weapon/Shield are with similar level builds. Note that the caveat that the mindblade(s) "function in all ways as the replicated weapon" handles all potential questions on what types of weapons can be wielded in what combinations and with what bonuses: Mindblade: Greatsword - must be wielded 2H, and deals 1.5*Str mod extra damage Mindblade: Longsword - cannot be wielded TWF style unless you are able to do so with a normal weapon Mindblade: Shortsword - wielded TWF style does get the bonus for light off-hand weapon Mindblade: Large Greatsword - cannot be wielded by a Medium character unless you have some special ability (Monkey Grip or Powerful Build) to do so I've also made it limited to identical weapons, which eliminates potential combos like Long/Short sword - I'm not sure it's a critical limitation, but I do think that any divided weapons should have the exact same enhancement bonuses, thus you can't create a holy shocking burst mace +5 and a undead bane mace of disruption +5 at the same time. This was a really good idea. By sacrificing a +1 enhancement bonus a the user can store a different configuration of weaponry and bonuses. For example, he usually uses a +4 Flaming Shocking Burst Greatsword but has spent a +1 bonus to be able to change this into two +3 holy undead bane maces as a move action. Excellent idea and will definitely go into the Mindblade Abilities.I would probably make this into another feat, rather than roll it into one of the existing ones. I'm not sure what I'd call it (Mental Armory?), but the ability to switch out multiple different sets of weapons is pretty substantial, and overrides the usual limit that you can't swap bonuses without an 8-hour cooldown period. Another potentially useful feat to consider is one that removes the focus requirement on the mindblade's enhancement bonus, so you could keep your +10 mindblades active even if you expend or lose your focus somehow. (Maybe call it Steady Focus or Stable Blade, prereq of Psionic Meditation and/or Narrow Mind?)
cvazi 12-27-05, 04:25 PM	:bigeyes: Wow. I never thought my idea would have taken off like this. I'll be interested to see where this ends up. :clap: Random tidbit: If we're committed to switching to Concentration ranks as prereqs, I'd remove the BAB prereqs from all the feats. One reason as for why I included the BAB pre-req in the original is to allow rogues and fighters to take these feats. In retrospect, using character levels as a pre-requisite might be a suitable alternative.
drunkenewok 12-27-05, 05:24 PM	One reason as for why I included the BAB pre-req in the original is to allow rogues and fighters to take these feats. In retrospect, using character levels as a pre-requisite might be a suitable alternative.Actually, the new Form Mindblade gives Concentration as a class skill, which will let fighter/rogues take the chain. While this will make it slightly more difficult for a Fighter type (who typically has few spare skill points) to keep up, it does consolidate the prereqs nicely. For me it's more of a personal taste: I like everything neat and tidy and elegant, and having an "or" in the list of prereqs is like having a spot of dirt on an otherwise clean shirt. Plus, I don't know of many (any?) other feats that have "either/or" options for prereqs.
carnivore 12-27-05, 05:25 PM	a quick request, if i may.....please use Quote boxes instead of Sblock boxes...it will make for faster reading. as for a build with these Soulknife feats...hows this: Human Psiwarrior 2/ Fighter 1/ Psion(Egoist) 17 PsiWarrior 1......Form Mindblade/ Throw Mindblade/ Psicrystal Affinity Fighter 1...........Soulblade Warrior Psiwarrior 2......Overchannel/ Talented Psion(Egoist) 1 .....PsiMeditation Psion(Egoist) 2 Psion(Egoist) 3......Shape mindblade Psion(Egoist) 4 Psion(Egoist) 5......Psicrystal Containment Psion(Egoist) 6......Resonating Blade Psion(Egoist) 7 Psion(Egoist) 8 Psion(Egoist) 9......Shield of thought Psion(Egoist) 10....Metamorphic transfer Psion(Egoist) 11 Psion(Egoist) 12....Mindseye archery Psion(Egoist) 13 Psion(Egoist) 14 Psion(Egoist) 15....Soul Armor/ EK: Schism Psion(Egoist) 16 Psion(Egoist) 17 BAB +10 or BAB 20( when you use this power found here:http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e) Combat Transformation Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 6, psychic warrior 6 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 11 You become a fighting machine -- stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can't manifest powers, even from psionic items (and you cannot cast spells, even from magic items). You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks). You lose any ability to manifest powers, including your ability to use command thought, use-activated, or power trigger psionic items, just as if the powers were not on your class list. You likewise lose the ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items. Augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, the natural armor bonus increases by +1 and the competence bonus on Fortitude saves increases by +2. just manifest Schism first then the schismed mind can manifest powers during combat, while you are a fighting machine........especially when using Greater Metamorphosis to get a form like these first: TITAN Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 20d8+280 (370 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 40 ft. in half-plate armor (8 squares); base speed 60 ft. Armor Class: 38 (–2 size, +19 natural, +11 +4 half-plate armor), touch 8, flat-footed 38 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+44 Attack: Gargantuan +3 adamantine warhammer +37 melee (4d6+27/x3) or +3 javelin +22 ranged (2d6+19) or slam +34 (1d8+16) Full Attack: Gargantuan +3 adamantine warhammer +37/+32/+27/+22 melee (4d6+27/x3) or +3 javelin +22 ranged (2d6+19) or 2 slams +34 (1d8+16) Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Oversized weapon Abilities: Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39 Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning) A titan is about 25 feet tall and weighs about 14,000 pounds. COMBAT A titan’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Oversized Weapon (Ex): A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. ANGEL, SOLAR Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good) Hit Dice: 22d8+110 (209 hp) Initiative: +9 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 150 ft. (good) Armor Class: 35 (–1 size, +5 Dex, +21 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 30 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+35 Attack: +5 dancing greatsword +35 melee (3d6+18/19–20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28 ranged (2d6+7/x3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee (2d8+13) Full Attack: +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19–20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28/+23/+18/+13 ranged (2d6+7/x3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee (2d8+13) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Abilities: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20 Feats: Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Power Attack, Track A solar has a deep and commanding voice, and stands about 9 feet tall. It weighs about 500 pounds. Combat A solar’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Regeneration (Ex): A solar takes normal damage from epic evil-aligned weapons, and from spells or effects with the evil descriptor. 17th level Manifester 9th lvl powers +9 Mindblade(+4 enhancement with +5 Bonus abilities) +9 Deflection to AC +9 Shield Bonus if i took out Resonating Blade and mindseye Archery...i could fit in Sacred Vow and VOP...and get a lot of Exalted feats... other builds that would work very well with these SK feats: Ranger 1/ Monk 2/ Fighter 1/ Psion 6/ Slayer 10 BAB +16 ML 15th 8th lvl powers Ranger 1/ Monk 2/ Psion 7/ Slayer 10 BAB +15 ML 16th 8th lvl powers Monk 2/ Psion 8/ Slayer 10 BAB +15 ML 17th 9th lvl powers Ranger 1/ Fighter 1/ Psion 8/ Slayer 10 BAB +16 ML 17th 9th lvl powers Ranger 2/ Psiwarrior 2/ Swashbuckler 3/Monk 11/ Saint 2 BAB +14 Greater flurry Wis to AC x2 Int to Damage :D :D
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 06:41 PM	Random tidbit: If we're committed to switching to Concentration ranks as prereqs, I'd remove the BAB prereqs from all the feats. Actually sounds like a good idea and brings in a small cost to the feats slightly justifying if they end up on the higher end of the powerscale. At least in my mind it does, since Concentration is rarely a very useful skill. On to the comments: So let's take a L20 Human Monk with 20 Str and see what we can build: Feats: Form Mindblade, Monastic Blade, Shape Mindblade, Improved Mindblade, Improved Natural Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Soulblade Warrior, (4 random [Mindblade] feats) - 11 feats total Mindblade Bonus: +9 - holy shock quarterstaff +5/holy shock quarterstaff +5 (+8 per head, reduced because of two-weapon status) Full Attack Routine: +23/+23/+23/+23/+20/+15 Damage per Attack: 4d8 + 2d6 (holy) + 1d6 (shock) + 5 (weapon) + 5 (Str) = 38.5 average per attack, or 231 per round (if all attacks hit). It's a nice combo, but it assumes the DM allows TWF to stack with Flurry (which I wouldn't, nor any similar attack-granting feat like Rapidshot), and without that it's not that much better than a reasonably well-outfitted normal monk. Thus I'm in favor of leaving the Monastic Blade alone. Yeah OK, it wasn't that hilariously powerful as I had imagined, but somehow I saw the real danger arising from a L12 Monk (Greater Flurry)/ L8 Fighter (for those 5 extra feats) or even som PrC like the Tempest or Exotic Weapon Master. Oh well, if someone breaks it we'll surely know about it. I also think Monastic Blade (now) works. We leave it. Personally, I'm partial to the Light Shield that grants +1 shield bonus to AC and has a -1 armor check penalty and no spell failure, like the existing Shield of Thought feat from RoE. It will also eliminate the need to specify that the feat has a minimum shield bonus. I'm also tempted to treat the Shield of Thought as a "separate" weapon, along the lines of materializing a pair of short swords. Thus if a character with Concentration 20 and at least 10 mindblade feats decided to manifest a shield of thought and a short sword, they'd both have a max bonus of +9 (one less than the normal +10). You could also include the ability to allow shield special abilities, or work that into the Focused Shield ability. The only problem I foresee is that many of the shield/armor special abilities have been revised in 3.5 to offer a set cost instead of an effective enhancement bonus, so you might have to setup a table to allow a Shield +3 of Acid Resistance, for example. Ok, why not. I was imagining a completely different approach when I began this, but now I see this coming together rather well. I am all for that the Shield counts as a separate weapon and thereby lowers the enhancement bonus by 1 step. I personally feel that we can rather keep it as a Light Shield with Enhancement Bonus X-1 (which also removes that first armor penalty) and allow the shield to share special abilities. If the user wants a flaming Longsword, then his shield is also flaming. Falls back to what you said about two weapons only having the same set of abilities. Focused Shield could then possibly be expanded to provide something more than just a +1 shield bonus. I'll grant that the deflection bonus allows for greater versatility than just using an armor bonus, but remember that not every character with the mindblade tree will have access to Mage Armor or Inertial Armor, and some (monks) don't have access to regular armor (unless they want to give up the Wis AC bonus). There's also the fact that a ring of protection +5 costs 50,000gp, and can be replicated by a L15 character with Soul Armor (total cost: 9 feats, but all the feats synergize well, and I don't think you'll see many mindblade characters just dabble in the feat tree). 50k gp is no small chunk of change, even at higher levels (assuming you follow the wealth guidelines in the DMG) That said, I'm not sure that the deflection bonus is entirely inappropriate, since it is one of the more common AC bonus types, and it just means you don't have to invest in a deflection item. An armor bonus would tend to make the feat less useful, but I don't think it's that overly powerful atm. Rather truthfully an armor bonus would have to be something like Adamantine Armor for the Warforged to even being to get people thinking about it considering its prerequisites. I do know that 50k is alot for a L15 character, but a mindblader gives up versatility for his focusing. Same reason why a human is generally better than a focused race, they have a choice. Someone can spend their feats on easing multiclassing, doing more damage or getting more attacks, while the mindblader doesn't really have that much of a choice. I feel that it is indeed a good feat, but not nearly overpowered. Technically, it's actually only a +1.5 shield bonus to AC (as currently written), since the +1 bonus applies directly, but the +1 bonus from being a mindblade feat only counts half (since the total enhancement bonus has to be divided between the actual enhancement bonus and the special abilities, and as far as I can tell, it's only the mindblade's actual enhancement bonus that applies to the shield). If we change Shield of Thought to work like an extra weapon (as suggested above under Shield of Thought), then this feat is no longer really necessary... Well, I still think that Focused Shield works since it improved the AC bonus, but I am sure we can find some better use for it as well. Perhaps we can let it lift that X-1 penalty for a Mindblade+Thoughtshield combo, giving the user both a +1 to AC and +1 to attacks. What do you think? So soulblade warrior grants the following: Materialize blade as a swift action +2 enhancement bonusWhile Shape Mindblade grants the following: Materialize blade as a free action +1 enhancement bonus Option to shape into 3 different weapon types (or any weapon you're proficient with, if we roll in Improved Mindblade)If you're a feat-starved character, you have to wonder if the ability to choose a bigger-badder weapon would outweigh the extra +1 enhancement bonus (statistically speaking, the bigger weapon is worth more than the +1). The main reason to take Soulblade Warrior, imho, is to get Quick Draw a couple levels earlier, or save a little time so you can take some non-mindblade feats without sacrificing enhancement bonus. I think the best way to change the feats so they don't overlap quite so much is to beef up Shape Mindblade to allow any weapon and remove the materialize as a free action. I totally missed that Shape Mindblade allowed you to form your Mindblade as a free action. Damn what a huge miss, and I didn't even see it once! I think we can go with your idea of a better Shape Mindblade but removing the Quick Drawn and only letting Soulblade Warrior give Quick Draw + double feat count. In other words: I totally agree! Personally, I'm partial to eliminating the option for projectile weapons (only allow melee or thrown weapons) as potential mindblade forms, and shuffling the Soulbow-like option into a PrC. Reasoning: the projectile weapons are substantially thematically different from the melee/thrown in that you're creating both the projectile weapon (bow) and the ammunition (arrow), and I just don't see it working the same way. A PrC that requires Shape Mindblade and Throw Mindblade (and perhaps Multithrow) would make more sense to me, and could add a number of thematically appropriate abilities without requiring a half-dozen feats. Excellent, then we all agree! We just let the Mindblader form melee weapons and throw these about like mad. How mad, we'll decide further down. :-) I'm also not sold on the ability to do the TWF throw trick and toss 8 (or more) weapons in a single full attack. It seems like a neat ability, and it might be okay as a PrC trick, but allowing a character to get around an entire feat chain to grant an ability that hasn't ever been in the soulknife repertoire before strikes me as dangerous. I stand by my earlier opinion that Throw Mindblade should only allow a single ranged attack per round, and Multithrow as a second-tier feat would allow ranged attacks up to your BAB. If you want to toss more, you'll have to invest in either non-mindblade feats (e.g. Rapidshot) or a PrC. If you're really set on it, I could probably handle changing Throw Mindblade to allow ranged attacks up to your BAB, but I wouldn't go higher. No, 8 thrown weapons is a bit overpowered, even if they are just shortswords, BUT I would suggest that the thrower would get his TWF-extra attacks as well if they do that giving them atleast a small edge! Howsabout this for a middle ground. Throw Mindblade gives you 1 throw with your weapon and a range of 60 feet. Greater Throw Mindblade allows you to throw your weapon as many times as you could attack in melee (allow for flurries or TWF to get a little something extra from that feat). Bladewind would then allow you to throw one at every enemy within 60 feet with your maximum attack bonus. It's not so much the damage differential, but rather the ability to pierce DR and harm targets you normally couldn't. But a Mindblade counts as a magic weapon from the very beginning, the enhancement bonus is meaningless. It can pierce X/magic DR without an enhancement even and a slight boost in to hit is equal to a Weapon Focus: Greatsword feat. Quite true, though if your group is dividing loot fairly, then the soulknife character should have extra cash he can spend on other useful items, instead of weapons/armor. Consider that a mindblader with 10 effective mindblade feats (with Shield of Thought and Soul Armor included) has the equivalent of 175,000+ gp worth of gear. I don't have the DMG wealth tables handy, but I'm pretty sure that's a substantial percentage of a L20 character's average cash, and he can spend that saved 175k on other toys. Yeah, but the same could be said about a Monk not needing armor and getting more loot, or a Wizard not being interested in a Belt of Giants Strength. Every character type has something they generally don't want or need and a dedicated mindblader (most probably a fighting class) has to sacrifice feats for money. I am pretty sure most characters would gladly pay 17'500 gp for a new feat... Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a fullround action, he can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional blade causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 3 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) I'm not entirely certain that the reduction of bonus is necessary, given that the TWF chain requires you to spend a slew of extra feats (which then can't be used on mindblade feats), and you still get the standard TWF penalties. I may spend some time crunching the numbers, just to see what the output comparison is between TWF, 2H, and Weapon/Shield are with similar level builds. First of all, considering the revisions we did to Shield of Thought & Soulblade Warrior above I think this sounds excellent. We'll take it and use it, we found a perfect middle ground to work from. Althought I must note that I think that the -1 enhancement should come with each pair, meaning that 2 weapons gets X-1 while 4 weapons gets X-2 instead. The biggest power from multiple weapons aren't the enhancements really, it's the special abilities bonuses. Note that the caveat that the mindblade(s) "function in all ways as the replicated weapon" handles all potential questions on what types of weapons can be wielded in what combinations and with what bonuses: Mindblade: Greatsword - must be wielded 2H, and deals 1.5*Str mod extra damage Mindblade: Longsword - cannot be wielded TWF style unless you are able to do so with a normal weapon Mindblade: Shortsword - wielded TWF style does get the bonus for light off-hand weapon Mindblade: Large Greatsword - cannot be wielded by a Medium character unless you have some special ability (Monkey Grip or Powerful Build) to do so I've also made it limited to identical weapons, which eliminates potential combos like Long/Short sword - I'm not sure it's a critical limitation, but I do think that any divided weapons should have the exact same enhancement bonuses, thus you can't create a holy shocking burst mace +5 and a undead bane mace of disruption +5 at the same time. All of this sounds like really good ideas and I find that you've really thought this through ALOT, also meaning that we will have less trouble in the future with breakage and rules questions. I would probably make this into another feat, rather than roll it into one of the existing ones. I'm not sure what I'd call it (Mental Armory?), but the ability to switch out multiple different sets of weapons is pretty substantial, and overrides the usual limit that you can't swap bonuses without an 8-hour cooldown period. I will think about this and see if I can come up with something. How about that you expend your Psionic Focus (as a full-round action) and when you successfully refocus you get the alternative set. This alternative set ALSO needs 8 hours to set in addition to your normal 8 hours for your normal set of weaponry. The expend/refocus means that a character has to take a little time being vulnerable (halved bonuses) and that it costs him atleast 2 rounds so it'll hurt like hell in combat or when being surprised, but still not impossible to do. Another potentially useful feat to consider is one that removes the focus requirement on the mindblade's enhancement bonus, so you could keep your +10 mindblades active even if you expend or lose your focus somehow. (Maybe call it Steady Focus or Stable Blade, prereq of Psionic Meditation and/or Narrow Mind?) "Inner Focus" sounds like a good name. I think we can mold this around the Psicrystal Containment feat - allowing the Mindblader to "count as if psionically focused for Mindblade feats" even if he has lost his focus in one way or another. Psionic Meditation sounds like a good prerequisite as well.
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 06:47 PM	a quick request, if i may.....please use Quote boxes instead of Sblock boxes...it will make for faster reading. No, because a quote-box is removed in a reply and would mean EXTENSIVE cutting and pasting for any serious replies. Sblock boxes also allows for a nicer layout and easier reading on the same page instead of constant scrolling. as for a build with these Soulknife feats...hows this: +9 Mindblade(+4 enhancement with +5 Bonus abilities) +9 Deflection to AC +9 Shield Bonus No, you would have a +4 Deflection bonus and a +4 shield bonus. Read up on the feats again, they gain the ENHANCEMENT bonus of your Mindblade. Otherwise it was a pretty good build yeah. I am sure the other builds are also very good, but I personally have a problem with builds that require 1-2 core classes and 2-3 PrCs. For me it sounds extremly strange considering that most Prestige Classes have some special entry requirements. But as someone said, anything can be abused with enough splatbooks. If anything I am more concerned about this working well with the material that is in the SRD (Core as far as I see it) rather than every splatbook out there, because seriously I can't keep up with everything.
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 06:49 PM	:bigeyes: Wow. I never thought my idea would have taken off like this. I'll be interested to see where this ends up. Feel free to contribute ideas or comments, at times this felt like a conversation between DrunkenEwok and myself but I am glad to see others joining in! :-) It was a great idea to start with and gave us fertile ground to create and brainstorm around, so my thanks to you!
carnivore 12-27-05, 07:10 PM	No, you would have a +4 Deflection bonus and a +4 shield bonus. Read up on the feats again, they gain the ENHANCEMENT bonus of your Mindblade. ok...still ...it would be a Primary Manifester with a permanent weapon and Armor that could not be removed or dispelled ill take it ;) I am sure the other builds are also very good, but I personally have a problem with builds that require 1-2 core classes and 2-3 PrCs. For me it sounds extremly strange considering that most Prestige Classes have some special entry requirements. But as someone said, anything can be abused with enough splatbooks. If anything I am more concerned about this working well with the material that is in the SRD (Core as far as I see it) rather than every splatbook out there, because seriously I can't keep up with everything. :confused: ..what?...only one build had anything other than Core book classes i dont need anything other than the SRD to abuse this type of system............basically you only need: 3 or 4 base classes(monk,fighter,ranger, and Psiwarrior) and a Primary Manifester class with a Full BAB & 9/10 or 3/4 manifester progression even this: Human Psiwarrior 2/ Fighter 1/ Druid 17 or better yet Monk 2/ Psiwarrior 1/ Druid 17 with the proper choice of feats (11 feats to work with) could have a +9 mindblade(+4/+5) and a VOP and 9th lvl spells Monk 2/ Psiwarrior 1/ Cleric 17 could have a mindblade and VOP and 9th lvl Divine Metamagic(Persistant) spells..(Divine power(for +20 BAB) and ,Shapechange) :D
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 07:18 PM	Ok, instead of posting builds which mean absolutely nothing to me (I am not a numbercruncher) please post WHY a build would be abusive and broken with these feats and explain. Without knowing WHAT you feel is breaking them (if that is indeed what you are trying to say) there is no way to solve it. Edit: Oh, by the way, Vow of Poverty, Persistant Spell aren't in the SRD as far as I can see.
carnivore 12-27-05, 07:36 PM	im not saying they are broken...the builds simply show how easy it is to basically gain all the abilities of the Soulknife class while still being the primary manifester or spell caster. the idea of Soulknife feats is very interesting......however it can lead to characters that can do far more than what you want... Primary manifesters or Primary spell casters can afford to lose 3 levels of manifesting/spell casting without great impact on thier main duties(manifesting/spell casting). with these feats and Base classes that grant bonus feats.....it is quite easy to magnify the power of the Primary manifesting/spell casting classes....especially in a low magic campaign. Vow of Poverty, Persistant Spell aren't in the SRD as far as I can see.true,....but even without them....(VOP is actually weaker than having the items)...the power of the cleric is increased greatly....now they have more money to spend... these feats are like the Kensai PrC but even better...you dont spend any levels to get the benifits which is stronger?.....Gestalt Monk 2/ Fighter 1/Psion 17 with Soulknife 20 or Psion 20 even this: Gestalt Psion 20 with Soulknife 20 or Psion 20 these feats can be used to make any Class similar to a Gestalt soulknife/xxxxx class just something to think about :D
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 08:00 PM	im not saying they are broken...the builds simply show how easy it is to basically gain all the abilities of the Soulknife class while still being the primary manifester or spell caster. the idea of Soulknife feats is very interesting......however it can lead to characters that can do far more than what you want... As I stated before I see no problem in a caster/manifester giving up their most powerful feats for the Mindblade feats. A caster who gives up his Item Creation Feats, Metamagic Feats and those few but necessary General Feats like Spell Focus and Spell Penetration are greatly damaging their spellcasting abilities. Primary manifesters or Primary spell casters can afford to lose 3 levels of manifesting/spell casting without great impact on thier main duties(manifesting/spell casting). with these feats and Base classes that grant bonus feats.....it is quite easy to magnify the power of the Primary manifesting/spell casting classes....especially in a low magic campaign. First of all, "loosing" this 3 levels generally mean a big loss to experience (20%) since they are WAY out of balance. Ofcourse, a human can survive this considering their racial ability to treat any class as Favored. But if we are talking about a low magic campaign then the DM shouldn't allow the Mindblade feats "as-is" either. The DM has made adjustments to his rules and world (lower magic, less amount of magic items) and thereby has to change this as well since this is built around the standard RAW. which is stronger?.....Gestalt Monk 2/ Fighter 1/Psion 17 with Soulknife 20 or Psion 20 even this: Gestalt Psion 20 with Soulknife 20 or Psion 20 these feats can be used to make any Class similar to a Gestalt soulknife/xxxxx class just something to think about I have no idea what a "Gestalt" is and if it ain't in the SRD/Core books then I probably haven't heard of it. My knowledge is encompassed by the books I own (PHB, DMG, MM, XPH), the information in the SRD (Epics, Deities and Variants) and what little info I've gleaned from friends books (generally Lords of Madness which I have borrowed or the Complete Series). But I assume that the geist of what you are trying to say is "Almost any 20-level build can become like the Soulknife with the right combinations" then I answer - yeah, that's kindof the very core idea of making it into feats.
drunkenewok 12-27-05, 08:13 PM	a quick request, if i may.....please use Quote boxes instead of Sblock boxes...it will make for faster reading.Slightly faster the first time through, but significantly slower when you're trying to find something from an earlier post, and the Sblock cuts down on the scrolling madness significantly. Perhaps if the base Shield of Thought is treated like a second weapon (thus it and the primary weapon take a -1 enhancement bonus hit, and it shares the exact same special abilities as the primary, which will only come into play on a Shield Bash), but then the Focused Shield gets revised to look something like: Focused Shield [Mindblade] When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonus on your Shield of Thought increases by +1. You cannot exceed a total enhancement bonus of +5, but you can trade the enhancement bonus provided by this feat for a special ability of equivalent bonus from the Shield Special Ability table. Special: You can take this feat multiple times, its benefits stack. I'm tempted to include some sort of limit, so that you can't keep piling on shield bonuses, but I don't think it'll really be necessary in actual play. It would theoretically be possible to take this feat 10 or even 15 times to get Heavy Fortification, Spell Resistance 19, and Reflection special abilities, but I don't see that as terribly broken, given all that you have to trade in for it. Howsabout this for a middle ground. Throw Mindblade gives you 1 throw with your weapon and a range of 60 feet.You are aware that the normal Throw Mindblade has a Range increment of 30 feet, and thus you can throw it up to 150' if you're willing to take the penalties. (-2 per range category, or -10 for the 150' throw). I'm not really comfortable extending the range to 60', because that gets into the extreme ranges (300' throw? that's the full length of a football field...) Greater Throw Mindblade allows you to throw your weapon as many times as you could attack in melee (allow for flurries or TWF to get a little something extra from that feat).I'm almost willing to concede this ability as an option for the base Throw Mindblade, but it also works as a second-tier feat. Bladewind would then allow you to throw one at every enemy within 60 feet with your maximum attack bonus.While the effect would be visually stunning, I think this is probably a bit too powerful. You could theoretically hit dozens of targets. If you want to make another feat (requiring Greater Throw and Bladewind as prereqs) that might work, but I'd still want some sort of limit on the number of targets. Maybe no more than your Concentration ranks? (23 targets pre-epic at full BAB is pretty impressive) Psiwarrior 2/ Fighter 1/ Psion(Egoist) 17 ok...still ...it would be a Primary Manifester with a permanent weapon and Armor that could not be removed or dispelledExcept that your build only has 5 Mindblade feats (plus the extra enhancement from Soulblade Warrior), for a total bonus of +3 enhancement/+3 special abilities, and with the suggested changes to Shield of Thought, that'll limit you to +2 enhancement/+3 special abilities. Your suggested substitution of Resonating Blade and Mindseye Archery for Sacred Vow and VoP would drop that bonus to +1 enhancement/+2 special abilities. (and only +1 deflection). Not nearly as impressive. With VoP, Combat Transformation, Inertial Armor, and Greater Metamorphosis you do get some impressive abilities, but all that is available without the Mindblade tree. Your build only tacks on a tiny extra bit of broken-ness on an already insanely powerful build. (It's like the old fable of the eagle and sparrow) i dont need anything other than the SRD to abuse this type of system............basically you only need:I'll grant that if really want, you can abuse the system with the multi-class tango, but what have you really gained? You do get some reasonably nice items, but you've traded a bunch of feats to get them, potentially crippling the actual character. The only time I see it as seriously abusable is when you throw VoP on the fire, and that's decidedly non-SRD, and in my experience, the BoED is seldom (if ever) an unrestricted source for actual games. Currently, you need at least 10 feats (which must include Form Mindblade and Soulblade Warrior) dedicated to the mindblade chain to get a +10 weapon at the end. If Shield of Thought is one of them, you're going to take an enhancement hit, and there are very few builds that offer enough feats to reach optimal levels with the mindblade tree and still have enough to cover the usual feat selections. Is it bullet-proof? No, but I don't think it's nearly as breakable in actual play as you make it seem.
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 08:31 PM	Perhaps if the base Shield of Thought is treated like a second weapon (thus it and the primary weapon take a -1 enhancement bonus hit, and it shares the exact same special abilities as the primary, which will only come into play on a Shield Bash) Wasn't this how we already agreed it would work? Shield of Thought is a Light Shield (+1 AC) with an enhancement bonus equal to that of your Mindblade. If both a Mindblade and Thoughtshield are manifested at the same time, they both receive a -1 penalty to their Enhancements. Both Shield and Blade has the same special abilities yes. Focused Shield [Mindblade] When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonus on your Shield of Thought increases by +1. You cannot exceed the total bonus of your Mindblade, but you can trade the enhancement bonus provided by this feat for a special ability of equivalent bonus from the Shield Special Ability table. The Special Abilities and Enhancement cannot total more than half your ranks in Concentration. Special: You can take this feat multiple times, its benefits stack. Sounds reasonable, but I'd change it a bit (see above) to keep it more in line with the Mindblade and stopping an overcharged Shield of Doom. I'm tempted to include some sort of limit, so that you can't keep piling on shield bonuses, but I don't think it'll really be necessary in actual play. It would theoretically be possible to take this feat 10 or even 15 times to get Heavy Fortification, Spell Resistance 19, and Reflection special abilities, but I don't see that as terribly broken, given all that you have to trade in for it. See my suggested changes, both limit the Shields Enhancements in some ways and make for a more balanced feat. You are aware that the normal Throw Mindblade has a Range increment of 30 feet, and thus you can throw it up to 150' if you're willing to take the penalties. (-2 per range category, or -10 for the 150' throw). I'm not really comfortable extending the range to 60', because that gets into the extreme ranges (300' throw? that's the full length of a football field...) Well, this is why I have you who know the rules alot better than I do. I had no idea that was how range increments worked since I have never met a character in my gaming group shooting that far (considering they all have had Composite Longbows that fire 110 feet) for any reason I guess I just never looked it up. Then I guess no range increase is necessary. I'm almost willing to concede this ability as an option for the base Throw Mindblade, but it also works as a second-tier feat. Then we roll it into Throw Mindblade, thereby actually making it worth taking by itself (not just being a step towards the REAL feat). While the effect would be visually stunning, I think this is probably a bit too powerful. You could theoretically hit dozens of targets. If you want to make another feat (requiring Greater Throw and Bladewind as prereqs) that might work, but I'd still want some sort of limit on the number of targets. Maybe no more than your Concentration ranks? (23 targets pre-epic at full BAB is pretty impressive) Ok, how about this: You cannot hit more targets than half your ranks in Concentration (rounded down)? Pre-epic that makes him able to attack 11 targets within 30 feet (errata to the Throw Mindblade feat in effect) at his best. Would that still make Bladewind too powerful? Or we use Bladewind as the class ability (one attack vs each enemy within reach) and add an Improved Bladewind which needs both Bladewind and Throw Mindblade as a prerequisite and does the above?
woozygremlin 12-27-05, 08:58 PM	FREUDIAN INVERSION (MINDBLADE, PSIONIC) Prerequisites: Mindblade, Wisdom 13, Male*. You are, for the first time in your life, filled with feelings of adequacy and self-respect. You immediately decide to give up this silly adventuring nonsense, get a real job and settle down with that nice girl who sells onions in the village market. *Female soulknives are not prohibited from taking this feat, but most require extensive psychotherapy before they are willing to commit to such a large step.
angellis_ater 12-27-05, 09:15 PM	FREUDIAN INVERSION (MINDBLADE, PSIONIC) Prerequisites: Mindblade, Wisdom 13, Male*. You are, for the first time in your life, filled with feelings of adequacy and self-respect. You immediately decide to give up this silly adventuring nonsense, get a real job and settle down with that nice girl who sells onions in the village market. *Female soulknives are not prohibited from taking this feat, but most require extensive psychotherapy before they are willing to commit to such a large step. Thankyou for that useful feedback and intelligent use of your time. Next time, take all those creative ideas swirling around inside you and put them to some actual use. That way, we do not have to look at you like the local clown desperately trying to get any kind of attention. Humor has its places. In a forumthread asking for feedback it is neither wanted nor appreciated. Bugger off and bother someone else.
drunkenewok 12-27-05, 09:50 PM	Wasn't this how we already agreed it would work?Probably, but there are enough ideas floating around that it doesn't hurt to reiterate. :) Sounds reasonable, but I'd change it a bit (see above) to keep it more in line with the Mindblade and stopping an overcharged Shield of Doom.So just so I'm relatively sure we're on the same page: Bob the L10 Fighter has 10 feats, (Form Mindblade, WF: Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Shield of Thought, Focused Shield x2, Throw Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Bladewind, and Weapon Specialization: Mindblade). When manifesting just the mindblade, he has a max of +6 (half of his 13 ranks in Concentration) total enhancement, or +3 enhancement/+3 special abilities. If he just manifests the Shield, is he limited by the +3, or the +6? (Since it should theoretically be a shield +5 with +3 worth of weapon special abilities). And if he manifests both blade and shield, then each has a base +2 enhancement/+3 special abilities, and the Focus Shield can boost it to +3? or +6? If limited to +3, then he must spend the other +1 bonus on a shield special ability, like Bashing. Then we roll it into Throw Mindblade, thereby actually making it worth taking by itself (not just being a step towards the REAL feat).We might still include a special limit, such that you need Soulblade Warrior (and the ability to materialize a blade faster than a move action) in order to throw more than one blade per round. I still think that the ability to Throw virtually any weapon-type with a range-increment of 30' still makes it a pretty nice feat, and the ability to make attacks up to your normal limit of attacks makes it almost too nice. Ok, how about this: You cannot hit more targets than half your ranks in Concentration (rounded down)? Pre-epic that makes him able to attack 11 targets within 30 feet (errata to the Throw Mindblade feat in effect) at his best. Would that still make Bladewind too powerful?I think it's probably fine as a Ranged Bladewind feat (with Bladewind and Throw Mindblade as prereqs), and it might be okay to roll into the existing Bladewind feat (though that makes the feat awfully nice...)
rampant 12-28-05, 02:29 AM	the mental armory idea was kind based on the earlier system i presented but your way works too also blade wind was dumb for the class because it was just a random feat replacement that wasn't required since it only appealed to people who liked the whirlwind feat to begin with, its useful for a feat chain because it allows the use of a cool feat without sacrificing the chain sorry i wasn't clearer earlier awesome idea i really want to see this evolve a little more before i yoink it though
angellis_ater 12-28-05, 08:33 AM	So just so I'm relatively sure we're on the same page: Bob the L10 Fighter has 10 feats, (Form Mindblade, WF: Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Shield of Thought, Focused Shield x2, Throw Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Bladewind, and Weapon Specialization: Mindblade). When manifesting just the mindblade, he has a max of +6 (half of his 13 ranks in Concentration) total enhancement, or +3 enhancement/+3 special abilities. If he just manifests the Shield, is he limited by the +3, or the +6? (Since it should theoretically be a shield +5 with +3 worth of weapon special abilities). And if he manifests both blade and shield, then each has a base +2 enhancement/+3 special abilities, and the Focus Shield can boost it to +3? or +6? If limited to +3, then he must spend the other +1 bonus on a shield special ability, like Bashing. 1. If he wields a normal weapon and the Shield of Thought, it retains a maximum Enhancement bonus of +3 and his 2 Focused Shield feats can be used to give him a total of +2 shield special abilities. 2. If he wields a mindblade and a thoughtshield, they both loose one point of enhancement, making the mindblade a +2 weapon with +3 worth of special abilities. Now he can use the Focused Shield feat (which is decided at the same time that he chooses the configuration of his mindblade) to add another point of enhancement BACK to the shield (making it +3) and a +1 special ability or giving it special abilities for +2. So yes, you are entirely correct. We might still include a special limit, such that you need Soulblade Warrior (and the ability to materialize a blade faster than a move action) in order to throw more than one blade per round. I still think that the ability to Throw virtually any weapon-type with a range-increment of 30' still makes it a pretty nice feat, and the ability to make attacks up to your normal limit of attacks makes it almost too nice. Yes, I meant that Soulblade Warrior would be a prerequisite for throwing multiple blades each round. I think it's probably fine as a Ranged Bladewind feat (with Bladewind and Throw Mindblade as prereqs), and it might be okay to roll into the existing Bladewind feat (though that makes the feat awfully nice...) Nah, no reason to overdo it on really good Mindblade feats. "Bladestorm" would require Throw Mindblade, Bladewind and Soulblade Warrior and allow the user to throw one blade at each enemy within 30 feet up to a maximum of 1/2 your ranks in Concentration. This also gives us a better reason for having Bladewind.
angellis_ater 12-28-05, 08:37 AM	also blade wind was dumb for the class because it was just a random feat replacement that wasn't required since it only appealed to people who liked the whirlwind feat to begin with, its useful for a feat chain because it allows the use of a cool feat without sacrificing the chain awesome idea i really want to see this evolve a little more before i yoink it though So, with the above suggestion, does Bladewind feel a little more useful? Its a step towards Bladestorm and lets Bladestorm build on the same mechanic. If you use it please return here and give us some feedback on the playtesting of it! :-) We still have to write up "Bladestorm" and "Mental Armory" as feats and finish the "Mindstorm" PrC.
drunkenewok 12-28-05, 02:05 PM	im not saying they are broken...the builds simply show how easy it is to basically gain all the abilities of the Soulknife class while still being the primary manifester or spell caster. these feats can be used to make any Class similar to a Gestalt soulknife/xxxxx classOkay... I disagree with your Gestalt reasoning, because you've neglected to include the actual feat costs involved. A Gestalt Psion 20/Soulknife 20 has a +9 effective weapon and most of the feats we've suggested, AND 12 feats. Your Monk 2/Fighter 1/Psion 17 has to spend at least 9 feats (out of his total 14) to achieve a similar (but reduced) effect. You'd need all 14 feats (Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Shape Mindblade, Bladewind, Resonating Blade x5, Knife to the Soul, Weapon Focus:Mindblade, Greater Weapon Focus:Mindblade, Speed of Thought) to actually get all of the abilities a Soulknife gets for free. So your build could be equivalent to the Gestalt Soulknife 20/Psion 20, but the gestalt has 3 more MLs, 7-12 more feats, better BAB and better Saves. I'll readily admit that gestalts are more powerful than regular characters, but a Soulknife/Psion isn't the most powerful gestalt in the game, and I contend that the difference in power level isn't far off from the difference between any straight build and a gestalt. Despite what you may think, 3 full manifester levels can be pretty significant, and is far more of a hindrance to a Psion than a Caster, because you can't augment past 17pp. Sure you get a single 9th level power, but 9th level powers aren't as crucial to a manifester's viability as 9th level spells are to a caster, and without Psychic Reformation (or Bend Reality/Reality Revision), you only get that one 9th level power and can't pick and choose like a Cleric/Druid/Wizard. I'm not denying that your suggested builds have some appeal, and that they can be incredibly powerful, but I just don't see how the Mindblade feat tree makes them significantly more powerful than the standard build with a few weapons. So yes, you are entirely correct.In that case, I think the feat can be worded better so that it requires less thought and interpretation. I'll dabble with it a bit and see what I can do. Here are some first-editions of Bladestorm and Mental Armory and the revised Throw Mindblade: Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to one-half your ranks in Concentration (round down). Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks Benefit: When creating your mindblade, you can choose to store an additional weapon type that can be summoned as a swift action. This weapon can be any type you could normally create (including a pair of identical weapons), and it can have a different set of special abilities, which can be assigned or changed just like your primary mindblade. Whenever you have a second weapon type stored, both your primary mindblade and the secondary mindblade have their enhancement bonus reduced by 1. If you choose to store a pair of weapons as a secondary mindblade shape, their enhancement bonus is further reduced by 1 (as is normal when manifesting a pair of weapons), but this does not affect the primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physical hold. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape with an additional -1 enhancement penalty on all stored mindblades. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the "Soulblade Warrior" feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. Given the relative complexity of the Mental Armory feat, I'm tempted to shift it into some sort of PrC, but I think it could work as written. I'm also not really sure we need the 30' limit on Bladestorm, since the Concentration ranks limit you on the number of targets, you'll just take the range increment penalties on targets beyond 30'. I also don't think it would be that outrageous to up the limit on targets from 1/2 Conc ranks to full Conc ranks. We're only talking about 23 targets pre-epic, and a PsyWar with Expansion and/or a Spiked Chain could Whirlwind Attack more targets, not to mention what a caster could do with the right spell. (And you'll have to deal with any AoOs from Bladestorm, since you'd be throwing a ranged weapon within a threatened area) After having some thoughts on dispelling and anti-magic fields (AMF) last night, I think it would be a good idea to either add the [Psionic] descriptor to many/all of the [Mindblade] feats, or include something in the [Mindblade] descriptor such that the mindblade feats don't normally work in an AMF. My reasoning is that the Soulknife's class abilities are mostly Su, and thus are suppressed by an AMF/NPF, though they can't be dispelled. (The exception being the mindblade itself, which can be sustained in an AMF without any of the enhancement/special abilities with a successful Concentration check) At present, the [Mindblade] feats are all considered Ex abilities, and thus they work normally in an AMF. Feats with the [Psionic] descriptor are treated as Su abilities, and thus are also suppressed by an AMF, so adding the Psionic descriptor to the Mindblade feats would make them work more like the soulknife abilities. The only potential drawback I can see with adding the [Psionic] descriptor is that it will make the Psionic Body feat very attractive to any mindblader (gaining all the normal mindblade bonuses and +2 hp per mindblade feat). The other option is to add some text to the [Mindblade] descriptor definition that specifies they are Su abilities and thus suppressed by an AMF. The drawback to this approach is that there might be some feats that we don't necessary want suppressed by an AMF, such as Throw Mindblade.
angellis_ater 12-28-05, 06:38 PM	In that case, I think the feat can be worded better so that it requires less thought and interpretation. I'll dabble with it a bit and see what I can do. Yeah, I also feel that we might need to reword it a bit, but we can leave that on the backburner until we get some other things finished and done. Here are some first-editions of Bladestorm and Mental Armory and the revised Throw Mindblade: Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to one-half your ranks in Concentration (round down). As a reply to a comment later on: You are quite correct that we don't have to include that "half concentration ranks" part considering what your example could do. I would keep the range just incase to stop any potential future problems (I remember seeing some spell which could double or triple a weapons effective range, so those 30-150 feet could become 90-450 feet) and I think it still fits thematically. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks Benefit: When creating your mindblade, you can choose to store an additional weapon type that can be summoned as a swift action. This weapon can be any type you could normally create (including a pair of identical weapons), and it can have a different set of special abilities, which can be assigned or changed just like your primary mindblade. Whenever you have a second weapon type stored, both your primary mindblade and the secondary mindblade have their enhancement bonus reduced by 1. If you choose to store a pair of weapons as a secondary mindblade shape, their enhancement bonus is further reduced by 1 (as is normal when manifesting a pair of weapons), but this does not affect the primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physical hold. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape with an additional -1 enhancement penalty on all stored mindblades. First of all, as written it's rather "clunky" and I still prefer my suggestion. When meditating to choose a "weapon config" he can extend his meditation by 8 hours and store 2 variants. Changing between these variants require him to first expend his focus (and withdrawing his Mindblade(s)) and then spend a full round action reaquiring focus at which time the new config is manifest. This removes the clunky -1 to all enhancements trouble, and I also think we shouldn't allow them to manifest both versions because its just cheesy. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the "Soulblade Warrior" feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. This is perfect, no more need to change it. We can call it final! :-) Given the relative complexity of the Mental Armory feat, I'm tempted to shift it into some sort of PrC, but I think it could work as written. I'm also not really sure we need the 30' limit on Bladestorm, since the Concentration ranks limit you on the number of targets, you'll just take the range increment penalties on targets beyond 30'. I also don't think it would be that outrageous to up the limit on targets from 1/2 Conc ranks to full Conc ranks. We're only talking about 23 targets pre-epic, and a PsyWar with Expansion and/or a Spiked Chain could Whirlwind Attack more targets, not to mention what a caster could do with the right spell. (And you'll have to deal with any AoOs from Bladestorm, since you'd be throwing a ranged weapon within a threatened area) See my above comments on Mental Armory, but if we can't get it to feel uncomplex we'll just throw it out and fix it later for a PrC. I think we can scrap the 1/2 Concentration ranks but keep the range at 30 feet to stop future abuse. Quick rules-question, would the use of Bladestorm count as 1 attack with a ranged weapon or X? After having some thoughts on dispelling and anti-magic fields (AMF) last night, I think it would be a good idea to either add the [Psionic] descriptor to many/all of the [Mindblade] feats, or include something in the [Mindblade] descriptor such that the mindblade feats don't normally work in an AMF. My reasoning is that the Soulknife's class abilities are mostly Su, and thus are suppressed by an AMF/NPF, though they can't be dispelled. (The exception being the mindblade itself, which can be sustained in an AMF without any of the enhancement/special abilities with a successful Concentration check) At present, the [Mindblade] feats are all considered Ex abilities, and thus they work normally in an AMF. In the case we make the [Psionic] (which would be my suggestion) I think we should allow the Thoughtshield Feat the same kind of "protection" as the Mindblade has. Feats with the [Psionic] descriptor are treated as Su abilities, and thus are also suppressed by an AMF, so adding the Psionic descriptor to the Mindblade feats would make them work more like the soulknife abilities. The only potential drawback I can see with adding the [Psionic] descriptor is that it will make the Psionic Body feat very attractive to any mindblader (gaining all the normal mindblade bonuses and +2 hp per mindblade feat). The other option is to add some text to the [Mindblade] descriptor definition that specifies they are Su abilities and thus suppressed by an AMF. The drawback to this approach is that there might be some feats that we don't necessary want suppressed by an AMF, such as Throw Mindblade. First of all, my suggestion would be that all Mindblade feats be [Psionic] even if Psionic Body would be very useful. It gives us an existing ruleset to use which people are comfortable with. 2nd of all, to counter any potential problems with "Throw Mindblade" we can just add that once a Mindblade has been manifested it cannot wink out in an AMF if the user succeeds on a Concentration check DC20 (just like the Mindblade). So, you throw your blade into it and roll to check if it stays. If it does you can roll to hit, if not then too bad.
drunkenewok 12-29-05, 11:33 AM	First of all, as written it's rather "clunky" and I still prefer my suggestion. When meditating to choose a "weapon config" he can extend his meditation by 8 hours and store 2 variants. Changing between these variants require him to first expend his focus (and withdrawing his Mindblade(s)) and then spend a full round action reaquiring focus at which time the new config is manifest.The big difference between the versions is that mine allows the character to switch between weapon configs at the normal materialize time (which is almost undoubtedly a swift action), making it a viable option to use in combat, but places a limit on the relative power of the weapons as a balancing factor. I'll admit that the -1 enhancement system is kinda clunky, but it's the same thing we've used when manifesting a pair of weapons (Shape Mindblade) or with Shield of Thought. Your version allows the character to switch between configurations out of combat relatively easily, but makes an in-combat switch a pretty unappealing option. If you prefer it be an out-of-combat option, your version is probably better. I also think we shouldn't allow them to manifest both versions because its just cheesy.Why is it cheesy? The character has spent at least 3 feats and 18 skill ranks (at CharLvl 15) to duplicate what any normal fighter could do just be picking up two different weapons. Manifesting both versions simultaneously would also allow the longsword/shortsword combo (and other non-identical pairings). Example: A Human PsyWar 15 (CharLvl 16) who'd spent at least 9 of his 14 feats on mindblade feats would have a +9 total enhancement, or +5/+4 special abilities. He could materialize twin holy shocking burst short swords +4, or (assuming my version of Mental Armory) materialize a holy shocking burst short sword +4 and a undead bane ghost touch mace of disruption +4. I don't really see a cheese factor between the two, given that the latter option requires an extra feat. Quick rules-question, would the use of Bladestorm count as 1 attack with a ranged weapon or X?Following the rules for Whirlwind Attack, it would probably count as many separate attacks (thus provoking many AoOs). However, I don't really see a problem treating all the attacks as a single ranged attack for AoO purposes, which we can easily add to the feat's description. In the case we make the [Psionic] (which would be my suggestion) I think we should allow the Thoughtshield Feat the same kind of "protection" as the Mindblade has.Actually, it's simpler than that. Since feats without the [Psionic] ability are treated as Ex abilities, you can "protect" any feat from AMF interference by simply not adding the [Psionic] descriptor. I think that Throw Mindblade, especially, should not have the descriptor, since it doesn't make sense to me that you have to roll an additional Will save to throw the blade that you already managed to maintain (with another Will save). As for Shield of Thought, you could simply omit the [Psionic] descriptor, or you could add a line similar to the one in Form Mindblade, though I'd allow a single Will save to maintain mindblade and/or shield. I'll dabble with the rules text a bit, and see if I can come up with something simple. We should probably also change Form Mindblade text to maintain the mindblade for a number of rounds equal to your Concentration ranks, instead of class level). And we need to add something to the base mindblade description that states the enhancement bonuses and special abilities are considered Su abilities, and thus are suppressed in an AMF. I'll dabble with the text and try to post a complete tree with the latest revisions later today.
Archangel_Arcanis 12-29-05, 12:12 PM	could someone put up a current vertion of the agreed setup, i just read this thread and am not sure i have my head wrapped around where everything lies curently, but it does look good so far. I think i might incorperate this into my game once it gets a little more settled and clearly written.
angellis_ater 12-29-05, 02:57 PM	Your version allows the character to switch between configurations out of combat relatively easily, but makes an in-combat switch a pretty unappealing option. If you prefer it be an out-of-combat option, your version is probably better. I saw it as an out-of-combat option but something which could be used in melee if the sacrifice was worth it. For example, Ansgar has a "+4 ghost touch holy undead bane greatsword" in his "armory" and meets a group of ghosts. Normally he wouldn't manifest it during combat, but now he needs it. Why is it cheesy? The character has spent at least 3 feats and 18 skill ranks (at CharLvl 15) to duplicate what any normal fighter could do just be picking up two different weapons. Manifesting both versions simultaneously would also allow the longsword/shortsword combo (and other non-identical pairings). Example: A Human PsyWar 15 (CharLvl 16) who'd spent at least 9 of his 14 feats on mindblade feats would have a +9 total enhancement, or +5/+4 special abilities. He could materialize twin holy shocking burst short swords +4, or (assuming my version of Mental Armory) materialize a holy shocking burst short sword +4 and a undead bane ghost touch mace of disruption +4. I don't really see a cheese factor between the two, given that the latter option requires an extra feat. Yeah, you're quite right (as usual when my cheese-o-meter starts beeping) and I think we can even allow a double-configuration through this feat. That gives it a wider utility than just switching weapons. Good call. Following the rules for Whirlwind Attack, it would probably count as many separate attacks (thus provoking many AoOs). However, I don't really see a problem treating all the attacks as a single ranged attack for AoO purposes, which we can easily add to the feat's description. I think it thematically would fit better with just one attack, I envision it as the mindblader throwing one blade and then a continuous stream of blades continues out from his arcing hand striking foe after foe. Actually, it's simpler than that. Since feats without the [Psionic] ability are treated as Ex abilities, you can "protect" any feat from AMF interference by simply not adding the [Psionic] descriptor. I think that Throw Mindblade, especially, should not have the descriptor, since it doesn't make sense to me that you have to roll an additional Will save to throw the blade that you already managed to maintain (with another Will save). I'd rather see them ALL have the [Psionic] descriptor or none, to keep them together and then add a line to the general Mindblade descriptor that says that once a character has maintained his blade through a Concentration check he can utilize it (for example via Throw Mindblade) without any enhancements or bonuses derived from Mindblade feats for a number of rounds equal to his ranks in Concentration. I'll dabble with the text and try to post a complete tree with the latest revisions later today. Will be appreciated, both by me and new readers of the thread! Thanks alot for compiling the data and making it easy to read and understand!
carnivore 12-29-05, 03:52 PM	i also would like to see the latest revisions........i have some additional responses, but would rather see the finished product now. :D
drunkenewok 12-29-05, 06:19 PM	Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. As long as you are psionically focused your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. If you lose your focus you only gain half this amount. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after t period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). This enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you maintains your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your class level before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on your turn, you can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage with your Mindblade weaponry. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Prerequisite: Psionic Meditation, Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade at its full enhancement bonus. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade's total enhancement bonus drops to 1/2 its normal value (round down). "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: Your Unarmed Damage can be applied to your mindblade as well and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may not be taken more times than 1/3 your level. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental funtions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC20 Will save described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonus on your Shield of Thought increases by +1. You cannot exceed the normal maximum enhancement bonus on your mindblade, but you can trade the enhancement bonus provided by this feat for a special ability of equivalent bonus from the Shield Special Ability table. You make this decision at the time the shield is manifested. The combined cost of the shield's enhancement bonus and shield special abilities (not including the weapon special abilities from the mindblade) cannot exceed 1/2 your ranks in Concentration. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional blade causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 3 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to one-half your ranks in Concentration (round down). Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks Benefit: When creating your mindblade, you can choose to store an additional weapon type that can be summoned as a swift action. This weapon can be any type you could normally create (including a pair of identical weapons), and it can have a different set of special abilities, which can be assigned or changed just like your primary mindblade. Whenever you have a second weapon type stored, both your primary mindblade and the secondary mindblade have their enhancement bonus reduced by 1. If you choose to store a pair of weapons as a secondary mindblade shape, their enhancement bonus is further reduced by 1 (as is normal when manifesting a pair of weapons), but this does not affect the primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape with an additional -1 enhancement penalty on all stored mindblades. A quick list of changes from the last major revision: Tweaked the enhancement/special ability text to close a hole that would allow +1 enhancement/+9 special ability options Added the Su designation to the enhancement/special abilites from multiple mindblade feats for AMF purposes Reworded the Fighter Bonus feat text (the old version might have been misinterpreted to allow a Fighter to take Form Mindblade and all the Mindblade feats using a single Fighter bonus feat slot) Changed to the latest revision of Throw Mindblade Added the [Psionic] descriptor to all those feats I felt shouldn't operate in an AMF (see below for more details) Added the Inner Focus feat Changed to the latest revision of Shield of Thought, with a few edits which hopefully improve clarity Changed to the latest revision of Focused Shield, with a few edits which hopefully improve clarity Changed to the latest revision of Shape Mindblade Added the Bladestorm feat Added the Mental Armory feat (my version, which might be replaced with angellis_ater's) As for the breakdown between the feats that got the psionic descriptor and my reasoning behind each: Psionic Form Mindblade - necessary to ensure the pp requirement and the psionic effect - we could theoretically remove the [Psionic] descriptor and just leave the pp reserve prereq, which would then eliminate the need for the Will save section (we might also want to consider replacing the Will save with a reasonably difficult Concentration check, to be a little nicer to the poor-Will save classes) Mindseye Archery - it's awfully nice, so eliminating it in an AMF seems fair - I'd also consider adding a maintain focus requirement. Inner Focus - since it only effects the enhancement bonus, which never works in an AMF, this shouldn't work either Monastic Blade - when in an AMF, damage defaults to the standard mindblade shape, instead of the Monk's unarmed damage - this is a debateable call, since the monk's damage works normally in an AMF, it's probably not broken to allow the mindblade to do the same Resonant Blade - I just don't see stacking extra damage in an AMF, psionic weapon and it's successors have the same limit Knife to the Soul - same as Resonant Blade Focused Shield - the extra enhancement bonuses/special abilities shouldn't work in an AMF Soul Armor - I can't think of any other Deflection bonuses that work in an AMF, so I don't see why this should Bladewind - It's a bit cheaper feat-wise than Whirlwind, so I don't feel bad limiting it in an AMF Bladestorm - Same as Bladewind Non-Psionic Throw Mindblade - if you have the feat, you should be able to throw it no matter what Soulblade Warrior - you should always be able to manifest the blade using the same action type Shield of Thought - lets the non-magic shield bonus work without the usual enhancements, though I've still included the AMF-related text, if we decide to go the other way Shape Mindblade - you should always be able to reshape your blade, and maintain it in whatever shape you left it in Mental Armory - same as Shape Mindblade I'm still unhappy with the clunkiness of the text for both Focused Shield and Mental Armory (even though it was mine to begin with). I'll keep dabbling with rewrites til I get something we're all happy with. We also still have the Mindstorm/Soulbow PrC to build, though I'd rather leave it alone til we get the feat tree shaken down nicely. If carnivore (or anyone else) finds any major holes (though I think they're all plugged), we'll obviously need to do further revisions, but I think this is pretty close to final.
angellis_ater 12-29-05, 07:16 PM	Here are all the Feats again, with personal revisions done to "Mental Armory", "Bladestorm", "Form Mindblade", "Resonant Blade", "Shield of Thought", "Monastic Blade" and "Mindseye Archery" and some spelling mistakes fixed. Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. As long as you are psionically focused your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. If you lose your focus you only gain half this amount. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). This enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium soulknife materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 25 Concentration check. On a successful check, you maintains your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Concentration before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a normal materialize action (usually a move action) on your turn, you can attempt a new Concentration check to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Prerequisite: Psionic Meditation, Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade at its full enhancement bonus. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade's total enhancement bonus drops to 1/2 its normal value (round down). "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may taken once for every 3 ranks you have in Concentration. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental funtions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC25 Concentration check described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonus on your Shield of Thought increases by +1. Instead of increasing the enhancement bonus you can choose a special ability of equivalent bonus from the Shield Special Ability table. You make this decision at the time the shield is manifested. You may not exceed the special ability bonus provided by your Mindblade. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional pair causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 2 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to your ranks in Concentration. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks Benefit: When creating your mindblade, you can choose to store an additional weapon type that can be summoned by first expending your Psionic Focus and then refocusing as normal. When you successfully refocus you gain the benefits of the additional weapon. This weapon can be any type you could normally create (including a pair of identical weapons), and it can have a different set of special abilities, which can be assigned or changed just like your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape. A quick list of changes from the last major revision: Changed the wording in "Form Mindblade" to use a Concentration DC25 check and lasting equal to your ranks in Concentration. Added the Su designation to the enhancement/special abilites from multiple mindblade feats for AMF purposes Reworded the Fighter Bonus feat text (the old version might have been misinterpreted to allow a Fighter to take Form Mindblade and all the Mindblade feats using a single Fighter bonus feat slot) Removed the "half Conc. ranks" limiter in "Bladestorm". Gave my version of "Mental Armory" - lets see which one we use. Mine is atleast a little less clunky but more dangerous to use in combat. I DID remove the "refocus as a full-round action" part which means that if they have Psionic Meditation they can refocus as a move action. Changed "Resonant Blade" to use ranks in Concentration instead of character level. This change allows a character to take another Resonant Blade before going Epic, but I don't feel that it is too good. Changed "Shield of Thought" to have the same "Concentration retains" mechanism as "Form Mindblade" has. Rewrote "Focused Shield" slightly as an attempt to make it clearer and easier to understand. Rewrote the last line in "Mindseye Archery" so that it is clear it only applies to ranged attack and damage. Earlier it could be interprented that you added your Wisdom to ALL damage done with a Mindblade. Rewrote "Monastic Blade" to make it clear that you do not ADD your Unarmed Damage to that of the mindblade, rather that you replace the mindblade's normal damage with that for your Unarmed Damage. Beyond what I changed for "my version" above I agree with your changes and your wording. Note that some of my changes were your suggestions from the very beginning, I just added them in to show that I agree and give us a "finished" list to work with. I forgot to mark all changes with BLUE, so please forgive me. It's 1 AM in the morning and we're moving our entire appartment (clothes, food and kitchen stuff tonight, the rest tomorrow). I'm still unhappy with the clunkiness of the text for both Focused Shield and Mental Armory (even though it was mine to begin with). I'll keep dabbling with rewrites til I get something we're all happy with. See my above mentioned changes and hopefully we can use them (if you agree). We also still have the Mindstorm/Soulbow PrC to build, though I'd rather leave it alone til we get the feat tree shaken down nicely. I quite agree but why not throw some ideas out already? I see variants on Bladestorm as an essential part of the class, and I think we should enhance the class' movement abilities - leaning towards the scout.
angellis_ater 12-29-05, 08:28 PM	Check this thread out for some feat ideas: Mavericks take on Mindblade feats (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340512)
drunkenewok 12-29-05, 10:52 PM	Changes to Form Mindblade, Resonant Blade, Shield of Thought, Bladestorm, and Mindseye Archery are all good by me. (Though I'll admit that Mindseye Archery may not be an entirely appropriate name, given that it can't apply to actual archery without the PrC) The Focused Shield revisions you've suggested don't prevent potentially broken combos: you could in theory boost the enhancement bonus on the shield to +5 and beyond (without regard to the mindblade's limits), and it's difficult to determine if the mindblade's special abilities count along with the special abilities provided by Focused Shield. For example, if you normally have a +3/+3 mindblade normally, and you have 3 instances of Focused Shield, what sort of bonuses are legal? You could have a +6/+3(weapon), +5/+3(weapon)/+1(shield), +4/+3(weapon)/+2(shield), +3/+3(weapon)/+3(shield). By a reading of your revision, it could just be the first option, or it could be all 4. As for the new version of Mental Armory... I'm still not sure how it works: you expend your focus to dematerialize Set A, then refocus, then rematerialize Set B? Thus it'll take at least a Move action + Swift Action + 1 AoO to get rearmed. Or expend focus to drop Set A and rematerialize Set B (swift action w/Soulblade Warrior), but Set B only works at half strength until you refocus (move action + AoO, unless you've taken Inner Focus)? It's probably just me, but the expend/refocus/rematerialize just doesn't feel right... Maybe it's just significantly different from any other expend focus feat... Finally, I've been thinking about the enhancement bonus reduction that happens when you lose focus. How exactly does that work in play? Does the character have to choose the full blade abilities when he assigns things, and then pick which ones are lost when he loses focus? Or does he have to choose the half-enhancement bonus when he assigns abilities? And does the 1/2 reduction apply to the actual total, or just half the number of feats? Example: Bob the L20 Human Fighter has spent 17 of his 19 feats on Mindblade feats (plus Wild Talent and Form Mindblade), and has 23 ranks in Concentration. His total enhancement bonus would be +18 (the extra from Soulblade Warrior), but he's limited to +11 (23/2 round down), allowing a +6/+5 weapon. If he happens not to have taken Inner Focus, how high is his total enhancement bonus when unfocused? +9 (1/2 of 18) or +5 (1/2 of 11)? Assuming it's the latter, and if his normal weapon is a holy shocking burst thundering greatsword +6, what about his unfocused weapon? A holy greatsword +3? Or holy thundering greatsword +2? Or could he make it a vicious keen ghost touch longsword +2? Given all the questions, (and all the extra rules text that would be necessary to answer them) I'm tempted to just ditch the focus requirement on the mindblade... It'll make expend focus feats more useful, and I don't think it'll be overwhelming... We'd have to ditch the Inner Focus feat too, unless we want to change it to work like Psicrystal Containment. I can think of two different ways of running it: either you create both the projectile weapon and the ammo, or you can use an existing projectile weapon and just create the ammo. I must admit that my childhood memories of the D&D cartoon and Hank's energy bow have left me yearning for the latter. Definite prereqs would be Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, and Throw Mindblade. Mindseye Archery and/or Bladewind might make sense, but I see them more as extras, instead of prereqs. An ability to change the effective material-type of the ammo might be cool... something like Expend Focus to change the ammo into Silver, Mithral, Cold Iron, and/or Adamantine (for DR penetration purposes)? Maybe a similar ability to change the special abilities? ala Expend Focus to change +1 (and later +2) worth of special abilities to another choice. You could also have an ability that lets the mindblade's total enhancement bonus increase based on class level. i.e. a L4 Mindstorm could have +2 (or +4) bonus to mindblade's enhancement bonus - would let the mindstorm focus on some of the other ranged weapon feats. Some of the Arcane Archer abilities would also make a lot of sense. If you like the speed idea, adding Speed of Thought as a prereq might make sense, and you could have an ability that increases the Speed of Thought insight bonus while focused (to +20, +30) That's a start, at least.
angellis_ater 12-30-05, 04:46 AM	Changes to Form Mindblade, Resonant Blade, Shield of Thought, Bladestorm, and Mindseye Archery are all good by me. (Though I'll admit that Mindseye Archery may not be an entirely appropriate name, given that it can't apply to actual archery without the PrC) Excellent, then we keep those and I'll brainstorm a better name for Mindseye. The Focused Shield revisions you've suggested don't prevent potentially broken combos: you could in theory boost the enhancement bonus on the shield to +5 and beyond (without regard to the mindblade's limits), and it's difficult to determine if the mindblade's special abilities count along with the special abilities provided by Focused Shield. For example, if you normally have a +3/+3 mindblade normally, and you have 3 instances of Focused Shield, what sort of bonuses are legal? You could have a +6/+3(weapon), +5/+3(weapon)/+1(shield), +4/+3(weapon)/+2(shield), +3/+3(weapon)/+3(shield). By a reading of your revision, it could just be the first option, or it could be all 4. Ok, my thoughts were that the shields Enhancement couldn't go above the enhancement bonus of the mindblade and that any other Focused Shield feats would go into buying Special Abilities up to the Enhancement Bonus. For example, lets say the Mindblade bonus is +3/+3, when manifesting both blade and shield, they are both +2/+3. 1 Focused Shield ups the Enhancement for the shield to +3/+3 and any further FS can be used to provide special abilities (for a total of +3). As for the new version of Mental Armory... I'm still not sure how it works: you expend your focus to dematerialize Set A, then refocus, then rematerialize Set B? Thus it'll take at least a Move action + Swift Action + 1 AoO to get rearmed. Or expend focus to drop Set A and rematerialize Set B (swift action w/Soulblade Warrior), but Set B only works at half strength until you refocus (move action + AoO, unless you've taken Inner Focus)? It's probably just me, but the expend/refocus/rematerialize just doesn't feel right... Maybe it's just significantly different from any other expend focus feat... Yeah, you might have a point there. Expend Focus to "purge" the current weapon settings and activate the other. If he hasn't got Inner Focus then he's penalized, otherwise he reforms the new blade as "normal". Finally, I've been thinking about the enhancement bonus reduction that happens when you lose focus. How exactly does that work in play? Does the character have to choose the full blade abilities when he assigns things, and then pick which ones are lost when he loses focus? Or does he have to choose the half-enhancement bonus when he assigns abilities? And does the 1/2 reduction apply to the actual total, or just half the number of feats? Example: Bob the L20 Human Fighter has spent 17 of his 19 feats on Mindblade feats (plus Wild Talent and Form Mindblade), and has 23 ranks in Concentration. His total enhancement bonus would be +18 (the extra from Soulblade Warrior), but he's limited to +11 (23/2 round down), allowing a +6/+5 weapon. If he happens not to have taken Inner Focus, how high is his total enhancement bonus when unfocused? +9 (1/2 of 18) or +5 (1/2 of 11)? Assuming it's the latter, and if his normal weapon is a holy shocking burst thundering greatsword +6, what about his unfocused weapon? A holy greatsword +3? Or holy thundering greatsword +2? Or could he make it a vicious keen ghost touch longsword +2? Given all the questions, (and all the extra rules text that would be necessary to answer them) I'm tempted to just ditch the focus requirement on the mindblade... It'll make expend focus feats more useful, and I don't think it'll be overwhelming... We'd have to ditch the Inner Focus feat too, unless we want to change it to work like Psicrystal Containment. Oh, I always understood it like that they always loose the ENHANCEMENT bonus "half" when unfocused. So someone with a +5 bla bla bla longsword gets just the bla bla bla part when unfocused and looses the +5 part. Perhaps we need to reword it and make it say something like "When unfocused, the Mindblade looses all Enhancement bonuses but not their Special Abilities". Yeah, think something like this: As part of their Entry Requirement they must carve their own crystal bow and it has to be Masterwork. This gives them a cool and thematic weapon, with lots od possibilities as well as a good entry requirement. I was thinking along the lines of letting them have the "Skirmish" ability of the scouts together with boosts to "Speed of Thought", letting him fire energy bolts, doing force damage and so forth
Archangel_Arcanis 12-30-05, 10:52 AM	this looks great if i can i'll look it over more this weekend, while i'm not at work, and see if i can contibute to the project.
MaverickWolf 12-30-05, 11:47 AM	While I currently prefer my version of the feats (though I have toyed with turning the mind blade itself into a feat as you have done here), I must say that you've done a pretty good job with these, and I'm glad to see the amount of thought going into them. Now, my comments: You should make a melee equivalent to Mindseye Archery. As long as Wisdom replaces Strength, it's not really that overpowering. And both Mindseye Archery and a melee equivalent should be bonus feat options for monks who've taken Monastic Blade. It just makes sense for them. Ditch the 'counts as two mindblade feats for enhancement purposes' from Soulblade Warrior. There's no real reason for that. You can already rack up the enhancement bonuses pretty damn quick. Inner Focus should not require Psionic Meditation. You're not improving your ability to focus for the mind blade. You're learning to bypass that need entirely. This chain of feats is intensive enough in numbers as is. Resonant Blade needs editing. The current wording allows it to be taken up to 7 times pre-epic, albeit with a sharp reduction in feat choices. Thoughtshield should not have armor check penalties. These things are formed by your own mind. They're NEVER going to get in your way. Also, you need to specify whether the bonuses apply to the weapon uses of a shield or to the defensive uses of the shield. Or they could apply to both (e.g. you have +10 to spend on the shield, so you make its offensive half a +2 weapon with special abilities totaling to +3 and the defensive half a full +5 shield for the additional AC, with no special abilities). I don't like Focused Shield. By the rules, that feat actually allows your thoughtshield to EXCEED the total bonus on your mindblade. That's just not right. HOWEVER, if you use the last option I presented for the thoughtshield enhancement, this feat is OK, though I think it should upgrade the thoughtshield to a heavy shield (still no armor check penalty). Soul Armor needs a big change. Deflection bonuses stack with other bonuses to AC, meaning this should not be allowed while wearing armor. Make the deflection bonus equal to 1 per every 3 ranks in Concentration, but it can't be used in any armor (and replaces a monk's automatic bonus to AC, otherwise they'll start stacking it to). I'm just not getting Mental Armory. It just seems too complicated to actually use.
drunkenewok 12-30-05, 03:05 PM	Ok, my thoughts were that the shields Enhancement couldn't go above the enhancement bonus of the mindblade and that any other Focused Shield feats would go into buying Special Abilities up to the Enhancement Bonus.I tend to agree, but your version of the feat as written doesn't impose those limits. My version does, but it's a mess and needs a rewrite to say the same thing more elegantly. Yeah, you might have a point there. Expend Focus to "purge" the current weapon settings and activate the other. If he hasn't got Inner Focus then he's penalized, otherwise he reforms the new blade as "normal".That'll work, then, though it might require some rewriting to make sure we get the point across. Oh, I always understood it like that they always loose the ENHANCEMENT bonus "half" when unfocused. So someone with a +5 bla bla bla longsword gets just the bla bla bla part when unfocused and looses the +5 part. Perhaps we need to reword it and make it say something like "When unfocused, the Mindblade looses all Enhancement bonuses but not their Special Abilities".While that could work, I'd rather have the "bla bla bla" special abilities lost. Reasoning: You can have a plain vanilla shortsword +5 by the existing RAW, but you can't have a undead bane holy mace of disruption without having at least a +1 bonus. We could word the ability so that you only lose the enhancement bonus, but then we're stuck with these non-RAW-like weapons with oodles of special abilities and no bonus. We could try to include a limit, so that the when unfocused, the blade only loses any enhancement bonus over the minimum +1, but that might lead to confusing situations when the bonus is low (e.g. a L1 mindblader who normally just has a mindblade +1, he'd get the same benefit whether he's focused or not.) I think it would be easier to just remove the special abilities, and would also encourage keeping the enhancement bonus higher than the special ability cost (ie, you'd see more +3/+2 instead of +2/+3, even though either is acceptable), which is behavior that I think we should encourage. Or we could dispense with the focus requirement entirely. Yeah, think something like this: As part of their Entry Requirement they must carve their own crystal bow and it has to be Masterwork.The only problem I have with that is that normal crystal doesn't bend, and thus can't really make a bow. Maybe if you require some sort of special crystal, it could work... I do like the idea of the flavor prereq, but I think picking something that doesn't require suspension of disbelief would be preferable. I was thinking along the lines of letting them have the "Skirmish" ability of the scouts together with boosts to "Speed of Thought", letting him fire energy bolts, doing force damage and so forthI'll have to refresh my memory on Skirmish, though if we're going to add the Skirmish ability, should we require some level of it as a prereq? If you're thinking movement based archer, it might not be a bad idea to include Shot on the Run, though that will make the feat prereqs really steep. While I currently prefer my version of the featsI can definitely understand. My own creations are sorta like my kids, and you'll always love your own kids more than anyone else's. Your compliments and comments are both greatly appreciated. You should make a melee equivalent to Mindseye Archery. As long as Wisdom replaces Strength, it's not really that overpowering. And both Mindseye Archery and a melee equivalent should be bonus feat options for monks who've taken Monastic Blade. It just makes sense for them.I can see adding the option for a monk to take it as one of his three bonus feats, but I don't think adding a prereq for Monastic Blade would be a good idea, since I don't want to pigeonhole the feat (since it's an equally appealing feat for PsyWars). I'm still not sure I like the idea of all these Ability Replacement (or Augment) feats... they tend to make my anti-cheese meter twitch. Resonant Blade needs editing. The current wording allows it to be taken up to 7 times pre-epic, albeit with a sharp reduction in feat choices.I disagree that needs further editing. As-is, you can indeed take the feat 7 times pre-epic, which gives you the ability to charge your mindblade as a move action to deal up to 7d8 damage (or 7 ability damage if you also take Knife to the Soul). On average, that's 31.5 damage. At the cost of seven feats. In a tree with lots of other useful feats. Which is less than the damage a comparable level Warlock can deal every round with a ranged touch attack. If it's not too powerful at low levels (Psionic Weapon is arguably equal or better), and it's not too powerful at high levels (q.v. Warlock and the extreme cost involved), and if someone really wants to spend 7 feats on the ability, I've got no problem with it. Thoughtshield should not have armor check penalties. These things are formed by your own mind. They're NEVER going to get in your way.I disagree, on two points: The existing Shield of Thought feat (RoE) does have an armor check penalty, and is also significantly less effective in other areas, so I'm hesitant to remove the penalty for balance reasons I don't personally subscribe to the school of thought that just because they're created through mental focus that they are automatically weightless. If it is indeed identical to a light shield, it should also weigh as much as a light shield, and hauling 5-10 pounds around does tend to make life more difficult.That said, I do agree that it should be revised to follow the standard masterwork/magical shield rules, which reduces the penalty by one, (which would eliminate the penalty in almost every case, excluding a character who only has Form Mindblade and Shield of Thought and uses both simultaneously) As for whether the enhancement bonus should apply to defense or offense, I had originally intended for it to apply to whichever is more appropriate (if you use it to shield bash, it works as a weapon enhancement to hit/damage, otw it works as a shield enhancement to AC). The special abilities from the mindblade are unchanged (i.e., the weapon special abilities, which only work on a shield bash, except for those abilities that can't apply to a shield, such as keen). I can add rules text to that effect, unless someone makes a strong objection. (Note: You can't currently add shield special abilities without the Focused Shield feat.) I don't like Focused Shield. By the rules, that feat actually allows your thoughtshield to EXCEED the total bonus on your mindblade. That's just not right.Noted and mentioned in my last post. Will undoubtedly be revised before any final version. HOWEVER, if you use the last option I presented for the thoughtshield enhancement, this feat is OK, though I think it should upgrade the thoughtshield to a heavy shield (still no armor check penalty).I can definitely agree to the option to upgrade to a heavy shield, but I'd still keep the armor check penalty. Just a difference in perception/philosophy. Soul Armor needs a big change. Deflection bonuses stack with other bonuses to AC, meaning this should not be allowed while wearing armor. Make the deflection bonus equal to 1 per every 3 ranks in Concentration, but it can't be used in any armor (and replaces a monk's automatic bonus to AC, otherwise they'll start stacking it to).I think you're over-reacting a bit. Yes, Deflection bonuses stack with other bonuses, except other deflection bonuses, which means the semi-universal ring of protection and a whole slew of spells and powers stack with this ability. Making it not work while wearing armor would kinda defeat the whole point of it being a deflection bonus. If you'd rather make it an armor bonus, but doesn't actually count as armor, that might be feasible, but I'd definitely up the bonus a bit (given that it's currently capped at +5 pre-epic, which you can replicate with a 3pp inertial armor), and I'd definitely allow it to stack with any Monk AC bonuses (just like bracers of armor would). Of course, going this route will make it almost worthless to a PsyWar or Fighter, who have substantially better sources of armor bonuses (either real armor or inertial armor). I'd rather keep it where it's useful to our entire expected audience, rather than one or two specific classes. I'm just not getting Mental Armory. It just seems too complicated to actually use.I tend to agree, and I don't foresee it being resolved. The ability is incredibly useful, but I think it's a bit too powerful for a feat. More than half of the clunkiness and complication is a result of trying to hamstring it enough so that it works as a single feat. Of your feats, Dual Wielder comes closest to replicating what we're going for, and imho, it's a bit too powerful (though mostly for the reduced TWF penalty, moreso than the extra special ability config). Maybe it would work better as just:You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape.It makes the feat decidedly better than anything we've discussed so far, but it still keeps the flexibility limitations in place (since it takes quite a while to reset the special abilities), but it's not as good as the Dual Wield feat (which, if we choose to import it, could be reduced to just the TWF penalty reduction).
MaverickWolf 12-30-05, 04:34 PM	I can definitely understand. My own creations are sorta like my kids, and you'll always love your own kids more than anyone else's. Your compliments and comments are both greatly appreciated.Not a problem. It's always nice to see a well-thought out discussion of anything on these boards. I can see adding the option for a monk to take it as one of his three bonus feats, but I don't think adding a prereq for Monastic Blade would be a good idea, since I don't want to pigeonhole the feat (since it's an equally appealing feat for PsyWars). I'm still not sure I like the idea of all these Ability Replacement (or Augment) feats... they tend to make my anti-cheese meter twitch.OK, I can definitely see your point about that Monastic Blade pre-req. I think we can safely drop that. They should be options for monk bonus feats though. I know the Anti-Cheese thing goes off, but a lot of them (especially ones that affect monk abilities) merely reduce MAD. I disagree that needs further editing. As-is, you can indeed take the feat 7 times pre-epic, which gives you the ability to charge your mindblade as a move action to deal up to 7d8 damage (or 7 ability damage if you also take Knife to the Soul). On average, that's 31.5 damage. At the cost of seven feats. In a tree with lots of other useful feats. Which is less than the damage a comparable level Warlock can deal every round with a ranged touch attack. If it's not too powerful at low levels (Psionic Weapon is arguably equal or better), and it's not too powerful at high levels (q.v. Warlock and the extreme cost involved), and if someone really wants to spend 7 feats on the ability, I've got no problem with it.I guess you've got a good point there. Hadn't really considered that fact. I disagree, on two points: The existing Shield of Thought feat (RoE) does have an armor check penalty, and is also significantly less effective in other areas, so I'm hesitant to remove the penalty for balance reasons I don't personally subscribe to the school of thought that just because they're created through mental focus that they are automatically weightless. If it is indeed identical to a light shield, it should also weigh as much as a light shield, and hauling 5-10 pounds around does tend to make life more difficult.That said, I do agree that it should be revised to follow the standard masterwork/magical shield rules, which reduces the penalty by one, (which would eliminate the penalty in almost every case, excluding a character who only has Form Mindblade and Shield of Thought and uses both simultaneously)I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. I just see the mental energy as being entirely weightless. As for whether the enhancement bonus should apply to defense or offense, I had originally intended for it to apply to whichever is more appropriate (if you use it to shield bash, it works as a weapon enhancement to hit/damage, otw it works as a shield enhancement to AC). The special abilities from the mindblade are unchanged (i.e., the weapon special abilities, which only work on a shield bash, except for those abilities that can't apply to a shield, such as keen). I can add rules text to that effect, unless someone makes a strong objection. (Note: You can't currently add shield special abilities without the Focused Shield feat.)While I understand the simplicity of doing it that way, it seems a little overpowered to do so. Noted and mentioned in my last post. Will undoubtedly be revised before any final version. I can definitely agree to the option to upgrade to a heavy shield, but I'd still keep the armor check penalty. Just a difference in perception/philosophy.I guess so. I think you're over-reacting a bit. Yes, Deflection bonuses stack with other bonuses, except other deflection bonuses, which means the semi-universal ring of protection and a whole slew of spells and powers stack with this ability. Making it not work while wearing armor would kinda defeat the whole point of it being a deflection bonus. If you'd rather make it an armor bonus, but doesn't actually count as armor, that might be feasible, but I'd definitely up the bonus a bit (given that it's currently capped at +5 pre-epic, which you can replicate with a 3pp inertial armor), and I'd definitely allow it to stack with any Monk AC bonuses (just like bracers of armor would). Of course, going this route will make it almost worthless to a PsyWar or Fighter, who have substantially better sources of armor bonuses (either real armor or inertial armor). I'd rather keep it where it's useful to our entire expected audience, rather than one or two specific classes. I can see your point there. It's just that my Cheez-O-Meter goes off when I see stackable AC bonuses. I tend to agree, and I don't foresee it being resolved. The ability is incredibly useful, but I think it's a bit too powerful for a feat. More than half of the clunkiness and complication is a result of trying to hamstring it enough so that it works as a single feat. Of your feats, Dual Wielder comes closest to replicating what we're going for, and imho, it's a bit too powerful (though mostly for the reduced TWF penalty, moreso than the extra special ability config). Maybe it would work better as just:You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape.It makes the feat decidedly better than anything we've discussed so far, but it still keeps the flexibility limitations in place (since it takes quite a while to reset the special abilities), but it's not as good as the Dual Wield feat (which, if we choose to import it, could be reduced to just the TWF penalty reduction).[/sblock]That Mental Armory works. Dropping Dual Wield to only give the TWF penalty reduction sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
rampant 12-31-05, 02:34 AM	Wow this is long I didn't expect the armory idea to be such a big deal, but i like the latest version I don't like the lose focus equals loss of enhancement or abilities it seems kinda lame especially considering the number of abilities and feats that require its expenditure, this feat chain is highly exclusive and character defining as it is the more restrictions like this the more we punish the people who try to make different kinds of ... what do we call characters with feats in this chain? Soulknives?, Mental weapon smiths?, Dream Swords?, People with glow in the dark pointy things?
angellis_ater 12-31-05, 03:53 AM	I tend to agree, but your version of the feat as written doesn't impose those limits. My version does, but it's a mess and needs a rewrite to say the same thing more elegantly. Ok, the point WAS to not allow any higher bonuses than what the original Mindblade could have. I've been thinking and perhaps we should go down this path instead: * Focused Shield removes the "two-wield" enhancement penalty for weapon+shield * NEW FEAT NAME adds Shield Special Abilities. Has Focused Shield as prereq. While that could work, I'd rather have the "bla bla bla" special abilities lost. Reasoning: You can have a plain vanilla shortsword +5 by the existing RAW, but you can't have a undead bane holy mace of disruption without having at least a +1 bonus. We could word the ability so that you only lose the enhancement bonus, but then we're stuck with these non-RAW-like weapons with oodles of special abilities and no bonus. We could try to include a limit, so that the when unfocused, the blade only loses any enhancement bonus over the minimum +1, but that might lead to confusing situations when the bonus is low (e.g. a L1 mindblader who normally just has a mindblade +1, he'd get the same benefit whether he's focused or not.) I personally like that the "focus" is needed to flood the weapon with special abilities and gives a little drawback to a bunch of good feats. I can totally agree with your idea of removing the special abilities as such instead of the Enhancement bonuses. I even think that sounds thematically more correct, since those are "real" powers channeled into the blade. The only problem I have with that is that normal crystal doesn't bend, and thus can't really make a bow. Maybe if you require some sort of special crystal, it could work... I do like the idea of the flavor prereq, but I think picking something that doesn't require suspension of disbelief would be preferable. But it doesn't have to be bendable! :-) The curved crystal is a focus for the archery, but there is no real string. Instead there's a string of energy which the character draws back. This doesn't bend the crystal either, it is just a mystical focus which is needed for the creation of both bolts and string. See what I mean? When not using it, it looks like a bow without a string, but when he raises it and "activates" it a shining string of energy appears, which he can then draw. Also gives us a "technical" aspect to the PrC, his mindblade power is used to create the bolt/arrow, while his classability and the crystal bow-focus allows him to channel energy through it. I'll have to refresh my memory on Skirmish, though if we're going to add the Skirmish ability, should we require some level of it as a prereq? If you're thinking movement based archer, it might not be a bad idea to include Shot on the Run, though that will make the feat prereqs really steep. Nah, there's a base class which has it from level 1, so I don't think we need any other prerequisites for this than "Speed of Thought", which we had already decided to keep. By the way, this: You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape. is phenomenal! I think we can keep it and skip our ideas trying to restrict it. Regarding Mindblades and derivates of it, and their weight. The rules as written state that a Mindblade is exactly like the weapon it represents, except for visually. Since its not a Force-effect, this includes weight. I am sure we could have a feat (like yours) which adds the force descriptor to the Mindblade, but I still think there should be weight, otherwise it would do alot less damage. Part of almost every weapons damage comes from the added weight and it being swung more or less like a bat, the sharp edge just makes it more lethal. Regarding Soulblade Warrior "counts as two for enhancements" - the feat simply becomes too weak otherwise, and I don't want Quick Draw to work for Mindblades since they are two very different ways of getting your weapon (mentally materializing vs physically drawing). Baking it into "Shape Mindblade" as it was before makes that feat too powerful. Ergo - Soulblade Warrior gives a "free" draw and a little bonus kick to enhancements. In all other aspects I believe drunkenewok met your arguments in much the same way as I would have. Rampant: I've taken to calling them "Mindbladers" and I think that works pretty well.
drunkenewok 12-31-05, 03:07 PM	Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium character materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 25 Concentration check. On a successful check, you maintain your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Concentration before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a normal materialize action (usually a move action) on your turn, you can attempt a new Concentration check to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade's special abilities. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade loses all its special abilities. "]Your mindblade melee attacks are guided by inner wisdom rather than physical strength. Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You use your Wisdom bonus instead of your strength bonus to determine your attack and damage bonuses while using your mindblade in melee. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may taken once for every 3 ranks you have in Concentration. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental functions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deal 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You must choose as a free action at the beginning of your turn each round whether the enhancement bonus applies to attack or defense. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC25 Concentration check described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonuses on your Shield of Thought and mindblade are not reduced when you manifest both simultaneously. "] Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: Every time you manifest your Shield of Thought, you can choose any +1 special ability from the shield special ability list. This ability lasts as long as you maintain the shield. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you can choose an additional +1 special ability, or any combination of abilities whose cost does not exceed the number of times you've taken this feat. You cannot gain more shield special abilities bonus higher than the special ability bonus on your mindblade. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional pair causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 2 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to your ranks in Concentration. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "]You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape. The changes: Changed the intro text to reflect the new focus rules (losing special abilities) Renamed Mindseye Archery to Mindseye Acuity (though I'm open to other suggestions). Added the option for Monks to take it as a bonus feat (though it would require a multiclass monk, since the feat requires L9, and the monk has no bonus feats after L6) Changed Inner Focus to reflect the new psionic focus rules Added Enlightened Warrior (name is open for alternative suggestions) for using Wis instead of Str for melee - also an option for Monk bonus feats Changed Focus Shield to reflect angellis_ater's suggestion for splitting the feat, and added Energized Shield (name is debateable) to allow for adding Shield special abilities Switched to the latest revision of Mental Armory Made some grammar/spelling corrections and removed a few stray references to the Soulknife class. Still working on hashing out the rules text for some of my ideas regarding the Mindstorm PrC.
angellis_ater 01-01-06, 06:38 AM	For the first time I have to say I am quite content with the version we have now, and if people want me to I'll try to come up with other names for "Energized Shield" (which sounds a little more sci-fi than the rest). "Enlightened Warrior" was a good name building off the previous "Soulblade Warrior". Name ideas for "Energized Shield" could be: "Mind over Matter" "True Shielding" "Shield of Power" "Shield of Two Worlds"
rampant 01-01-06, 08:53 AM	lets keep it simple for the name there shall we something similar to mind blade, Thought guard
angellis_ater 01-01-06, 10:42 AM	"Thought Guardian" could also work, but it thematically speaks of something that defends your thoughts. We could also rename "Focused Shield" to "Equilibrium" and use "Focused Shield" for "Energized Shield" if people wanna go that way.
Vestigial_Thumb 01-02-06, 02:06 PM	I've been shooting fireworks all over Reykjavik for the last 2 days (there are no laws against fireworks in Iceland), and I'M BAAA-AAACK!!!!!. BUMP!
angellis_ater 01-02-06, 02:37 PM	Ideas and concepts for the "MindStorm" PrC Full BAB Good Refl and Will saves D8 hit die Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, , Soulblade Warrior, Mindseye Acuity, Speed of Thought, make masterwork crystal bowshaft Class Ability ideas: Skirmish - going from +1d6 to +3d6, +3 AC Speed beyond Thought - a bump to the speed from Speed of Thought (2x+10 feet?) Mindstorm - Fire 1 arrow on every opponent within range. Mindseye Archery - Form arrows and bolts instead of blades, use same Enhancements and Special Abilities, base damage 1d8 (Longbow) but can learn to achieve other shapes (Composite Longbow, Crossbows) and thereby do more damage. Flurry of Shots - use Monks Flurry but for ranged combat instead? Power Progression: If we are to make this class a viable choice for any Psychic Warriors we need to have a Power Progression, but how good?
rampant 01-02-06, 09:00 PM	um +3d6/+3 implies a 12 level prc seeing as th scout gets +5d6/+5 over 20 levels
Seerow 01-02-06, 10:09 PM	Just one thing I want to note. While I like what's being done here... one thing really isn't possible. Mindseye Acuity [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. Enlightened Warrior [Mindblade, Psionic] Your mindblade melee attacks are guided by inner wisdom rather than physical strength. Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You use your Wisdom bonus instead of your strength bonus to determine your attack and damage bonuses while using your mindblade in melee. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. Bolded for emphasis. I say waive at least the concentration requirement for these feats, if you intend them to be taken. You can't get 12 ranks until 9th level.
angellis_ater 01-03-06, 05:40 AM	Rampant: Good catch, that'll have to be +3d6 / +2 AC if we use the standard Skirmish progression (not always a given) Seerow: Yes it is still very possible for multiclassing characters. Those that start at Monk lvl 1 and character lvl 1 can take Monastic Blade instead. See, easily done. You go Fighter for 9 levels, than at 10th level you go Monk 1 and take whatever feat you feel like from those available.
drunkenewok 01-03-06, 03:31 PM	Just one thing I want to note. While I like what's being done here... one thing really isn't possible. (Mindseye Acuity and Enlightened Warrior)Actually, it is possible, as I noted in my comments on the latest revision. While a single-class monk cannot take the feats as bonus feats (because he doesn't get any bonus feats after L6, and needs at least L9 to fulfill the Concentration prereq), a multi-class monk can. I suppose we could add an additional clause to the "Special:" block that allows Monks to take the feat without the Concentration prereq, but I'm against it. I don't like the idea of lowering or eliminating the Concentration prereq because it keeps the feats out of the hands of low-level characters, enforcing some period of MAD as a penalty for those who try to excessively min-max and ignore Str/Dex. It's still abusable by those who create characters above L9, but at least this provides some drag to the build. As for the Mindstorm: I like the Mindstorm ability as a cap ability (L5 or L10) - will work nicely Mindseye Archery as a L1 ability should work, and I've got an idea for an incremental progression ability that might be cool Skirmish progression is fine, though I wouldn't make it any faster than the Scout Speed beyond Thought is also fine, though I'd stop at a total +30 insight bonus to speed Flurry of Shots I'd leave out, unless we want this to be a Monk-only PrC with Monk-only prereqs - or you could roll it into the Mindseye Archery ability, and require that the character choose at L1 whether to apply the Ranged Weapon attack Feats (like Rapidshot/Manyshot) or Melee Weapon attack abilities (like Flurry/TWF) ML progression will probably have to be decided after we settle everything else. We need to decide if it's a 10-level, 5-level, or 3-level PrC, and figure out exactly how many abilities we want to cram in and how fast
angellis_ater 01-03-06, 05:42 PM	As for the Mindstorm: I like the Mindstorm ability as a cap ability (L5 or L10) - will work nicely Mindseye Archery as a L1 ability should work, and I've got an idea for an incremental progression ability that might be cool Skirmish progression is fine, though I wouldn't make it any faster than the Scout Speed beyond Thought is also fine, though I'd stop at a total +30 insight bonus to speed Flurry of Shots I'd leave out, unless we want this to be a Monk-only PrC with Monk-only prereqs - or you could roll it into the Mindseye Archery ability, and require that the character choose at L1 whether to apply the Ranged Weapon attack Feats (like Rapidshot/Manyshot) or Melee Weapon attack abilities (like Flurry/TWF) ML progression will probably have to be decided after we settle everything else. We need to decide if it's a 10-level, 5-level, or 3-level PrC, and figure out exactly how many abilities we want to cram in and how fast Excellent, I think we should aim at L10, to allow us enough space for what we want Then lets hear it! I'd be interested to see what you are thinking on this one! If we are to make it up to "+3d6 / +2 AC" we NEED 10 levels. The scout has a "bump" every 2 levels, the first always being damage. +30 insight bonus already sounds pretty darn good to me. A "normal" character can move 60 ft in one turn, while Monks and Barbarians going into this class (for whatever reason) are almost teleporting. We certainly don't want to call it that, it was just for descriptions. I was merely thinking of some way to add an extra shot into the mix using some kind of standard we could all relate to. As I said before, I would suggest a 10 level progression. There are many PrC's from XPH we can use as a basis for that.
carnivore 01-03-06, 06:46 PM	Mindblade Feats: v0.6 Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. actually i believe that these feats are Overpowered by the bolded section...... notice that at 1st lvl a character can get a +2 weapon(cost =8000gp) on top of the normal starting gold maximum(2d4 x 10gp) thus a psionic character will have a great advantage...as it can get Mindblade,psionic feats without spending a feat..... but even a non-psionic(initially) character can abuse this: All examples use Human as Race: Fighter 1....Form Mindblade,Throw Mindblade,Weapon Focus(mindblade) Effect= +2 weapon(8000gp value)....variable...can be changed each day to meet the days needs....ALL AT 1st LEVEL!!! if the character was smart, he would think before adventuring each morning and try to determine what would help the most....if in a forest with a lot of magical beasts...this: example weapon: +1 Magical Beast Bane sword.....becomes +3 vs Magical beasts and does 2d6 additional damage.....very overpowered and unbalancing at low levels Sorceror 6....Extend Spell,Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior effect= +3 weapon(18000gp value)....variable...can be changed each day to meet the days needs.... example weapon: +1 Undead Bane Ghosttouch.....becomes +3 vs undead and does 2d6 extra damage Why is this overpowering?.....a 6th lvl character only should have 13000gp and should not be able to afford it would a Sorceror be weaker with this weapon....NO, after he used his spells he would still be a force to contend with...and would only get stronger more examples of overpowered builds: Fighter1/Sorceror 5....Extend Spell,Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade) Cleric 6 ........Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior,Extra Turning Fighter 6........Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade),Shape Mindblade,inner focus,throw mindblade,combat reflexes Rogue 4/ Fighter 2.......Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade),Shape Mindblade,throw mindblade all these examples show the unbalancing effect that this has to balance it try this: Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Starting at 3rd Character level and advancing every odd character level, Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take . You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. the part The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). does virtually nothing , except force the characters to have specific bonus types : enhancement to Att and Damage/ Weapon special abilities it does not aid in brining any balance to the feat and is virtually unnecessary, its like telling a cleric to take ranks in Knowledge(religion)....it is usually a given that he will anyway
Seerow 01-03-06, 07:25 PM	drunkenewok: I somehow missed the comments, Im sorry for troubling you with that. But I still don't like the idea of restricting a monk who spent a feat on Wild Talent or took a psionic race to be able to qualify to have a Mindblade should be penalized the chance at taking advantage of bonus feats simply because he gets them at a lower level than he's qualified for the ones that might help him. Sure, a smart player can pull out something like a Human Psywarrior8/Fighter2 and have 6 bonus feats at level 10 and then start as a monk. Someone might even be smart and go Psywar2/Fighter6 and have that ever precious +16 BAB by level 20, in addition to Greater Flurry. But the thing is these builds would actually be MORE optimal than somebody going Monk20 and getting 3 bonus feats he wouldn't normally qualify for a few levels earlier.(In fact, the only disadvantage I see is a somewhat lower will save. But you're going to want a really high wisdom anyway, for your Psywar Powers and for your Mindblade) Yes, it reduces MAD, but really, monks have such high MAD anyway, what's it going to hurt letting them have lower strength? They still need their other stats fairly high to make it worthwhile for them. It really doesn't seem that unbalancing to me, compared to other things the character could be doing.
angellis_ater 01-03-06, 07:25 PM	First of all, yes. A Human Fighter can give up ALL his feats to gain a +1/+1 weapon from the very start. But your calcuation was incorrect, considering that he needs "Wild Talent" to qualify for it. So basically, you have a character who spends all his three feats, one being more or less useless for him as well as 4 skill points to raise Concentration (a definite useless skill for a Fighter). This gives the character a slight edge in the beginning at the cost of his Feats, but you seem to believe that ALL weapon abilities will be available to a Mindblade? As of yet we haven't decided if we are going to expand the list found in the XPH or go with it, but using that as a basis a Mindblader Fighter with the above set up would get (at its best): A short sword doing 1d6+1+1d4 being a magic weapon. He also gets +1 to hit. A normal Human Fighter could get Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Quick Draw and Improved Iniative. This guy would do 2d6 damage, draw his sword in the turn he can react AND attack with it as well as getting +4 to his Iniative. Granted, he cannot bypass DR X/magic but then few CR1-2 monsters have it. Note that he ALSO has +1 to hit and a prerequisite for Weapon Spec. later. Wow. The power. The insane power available to the Mindblader. Or not. (please note that the sarcasm is not meant as an insult) --- Most of your builds calculate the bonus incorrectly (Form Mindblade is NOT a [Mindblade] Feat and does NOT add enhancement bonus) and/or is using incorrect use (special ability cost exceeding the enhancement bonus but this could and should be stated more explicitly than it is currently done) and this is before considering that almost none of your "wow" examples use the Soulknife Special Abilities table. So first your "calculations" for how much a mindblade would cost are incorrect (since the total enhancement bonus isn't correctly calculated), but you also fail to calculate the cost of Skill Point and Feats being used to achieve this. --- So in general your arguments are faulty or just incorrect, even without my above addendum about special abilities not exceeding the enhancement bonus (which must have been lost somewhere). You also fail to "count in" the cost of the skill points necessary for Concentration and the cost of all those Feats spent. Add this to the fact that you also freely used the general magic weapons list to create your unbalanced builds instead of the Soulknife one and I fail to see the problem.
angellis_ater 01-03-06, 07:32 PM	But I still don't like the idea of restricting a monk who spent a feat on Wild Talent or took a psionic race to be able to qualify to have a Mindblade should be penalized the chance at taking advantage of bonus feats simply because he gets them at a lower level than he's qualified for the ones that might help him. Sure, a smart player can pull out something like a Human Psywarrior8/Fighter2 and have 6 bonus feats at level 10 and then start as a monk. Someone might even be smart and go Psywar2/Fighter6 and have that ever precious +16 BAB by level 20, in addition to Greater Flurry. But the thing is these builds would actually be MORE optimal than somebody going Monk20 and getting 3 bonus feats he wouldn't normally qualify for a few levels earlier.(In fact, the only disadvantage I see is a somewhat lower will save. But you're going to want a really high wisdom anyway, for your Psywar Powers and for your Mindblade) Yes, it reduces MAD, but really, monks have such high MAD anyway, what's it going to hurt letting them have lower strength? They still need their other stats fairly high to make it worthwhile for them. It really doesn't seem that unbalancing to me, compared to other things the character could be doing. In general, I'd say I'd rather remove the "may take as Monk bonus feat" part than lower the Concentration requirement or start making additions that allow certain classes to throw requirements out the window. The Concentration requirement is one of the best for keeping the feats balanced and imposing a cost. A Monk now has the possibility of picking them up if he multiclasses, but at level 1 this is first and foremost still IMPOSSIBLE to take. The other feat requirements are too large to get at first level, no matter how. This makes it meaningless to remove the Concentration requirement, and I would NEVER approve of a Feat which has "Throw all prerequisites out the window if the character is a Monk" Special. Sorry.
drunkenewok 01-03-06, 08:19 PM	Note: This duplicates many of angellis_ater's observations, but I've decided not to cut down the post because it does provide additional insight (and I'm lazy). notice that at 1st lvl a character can get a +2 weapon(cost =8000gp) on top of the normal starting gold maximum(2d4 x 10gp)That is correct, a L1 character can get a +2 weapon, however, most of your "overpowered" builds are not valid. Either the characters in question don't meet the feat prereqs, or because you've overestimated the effective weapon enhancement based on the feats taken (I believe you're counting Form Mindblade as a [Mindblade] feat for enhancement purposes, which it is not, nor has it ever been) Human Fighter 1....Form Mindblade,Throw Mindblade,Weapon Focus(mindblade)Doesn't meet the prereqs for Form Mindblade, and even if he did, he'd only have a +1 weapon. Human Sorceror 6....Extend Spell,Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade WarriorOnly has a +2 effective mindblade, (allocated +1/+1, 8k gp value), not a +3 as you calculated (18k gp value). Human Fighter1/Sorceror 5....Extend Spell,Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade)Only has a +2 effective weapon, which is not out of reach monetarily, and he's traded 3 feats to get it. Cleric 6 ........Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior,Extra TurningAgain, only a +2 effective weapon, and he's traded 3 feats for it. Human Fighter 6........Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade),Shape Mindblade,inner focus,throw mindblade,combat reflexesAssuming he's spent 9 ranks on concentration, he can have a +4 weapon (+2/+2), but he's traded 6 feats for the benefit. Human Rogue 4/ Fighter 2.......Wild Talent,Form Mindblade,Soulblade Warrior/Weapon focus(mindblade),Shape Mindblade,throw mindbladeAssuming he's spent at least 8 ranks on Concentration, he can have a +4 weapon (+2/+2), but has traded 5 feats for it. The only builds that can get a +2 weapon at L1 are Human Fighter, Human Monk, Human Psion, Human PsyWar, Human Wilder, (psi-race) Fighter, (psi-race) Monk, (psi-race) Psion, (psi-race) PsyWar. The most "broken" builds are the Human Psion and Human PsyWar, both of which can still have a single feat left to spend after getting the +2 weapon (though they're still limited to +2, no matter how many [Mindblade] feats they take. Everyone else has to spend all their feats on Wild Talent (for the Humans who take non-psionic classes), Form Mindblade, and Soulblade Warrior. To quote an example that angellis_ater used on me earlier, a +2 weapon is most likely a flaming shortsword +1, which isn't all that different from a fighter with a Greatsword. (2d6+1+Str damage vs 2d6+Str*1.5 damage). It is nice, but you're spending a lot of feats to get the bonus. if the character was smart, he would think before adventuring each morning and try to determine what would help the most....And that is actually something I'd like to encourage. Planning and preparation are things to be rewarded. Also note that in the case of the Bane enhancements you've suggested, it's entirely possible that the benefit may be completely wasted if the character doesn't actually encounter that creature type. It's also worth noting that an Artificer is significantly more capable of bending the Bane benefit to his advantage. I'm reasonably sure that the balance between feats and cash is okay. If you feel like spending 5 feats to get a really nice weapon at low levels, you may end up regretting it when you don't have the feat slots you want/need later in your career. If you can point out an enhancement/special ability combo that would be overpowering in the general case (rather than in ideal circumstances, such as Bane), I'm willing to take it under consideration. I've already wondered if the enhancement bonus at low levels is too much, but I have yet to come up with a combo that is really significantly more powerful than a standard character with the right feat choices. to balance it try this:Just so I'm clear we're talking about the same system, you're suggesting to cap the enhancement bonus at +0 for L1/L2, +1 at L3, and an additional +1 every odd character level (+2 at L5, +3 at L7, etc), but you also need X mindblade feats in order to get a total bonus of X. I'm hesitant to use that mechanic because while it does mimic the existing Soulknife progression, it also penalizes the character because he also has to spend the feats, and even if he spends 10 feats on the tree, a normal Fighter can outdo him by spending a little cash, and still have the extra 10 feats for other benefits. We could cap it at +1 at L1, and an additional +1 every odd level, which would be a nice compromise between the existing method and yours. (Existing method is basically capped at +2 at L1 and an additional +1 every odd level thereafter) Another option would be removing the "counts as two feats" from Soulblade Warrior, which would limit those builds capable of a +2 weapon at L1 to the Human Psion and Human PsyWar, both of whom would have to spend all 3 of their starting feats on Form Mindblade and 2 random [Mindblade] feats to get the bonus. I'm somewhat hesitant to do so, given that Soulblade Warrior's effect is generally rather blah (basically replacing Quick Draw), but it would change the feat from something almost every mindblader takes to something only those interested in the effect or meeting a prereq would take. Which might not be a bad idea. the part (quote removed) does virtually nothing , except force the characters to have specific bonus types : enhancement to Att and Damage/ Weapon special abilitiesThat's exactly the point of the section: preventing weird combos like a holy vorpal wounding longsword +1, or dumping everything into enhancement (i.e. a longsword +10 pre-epic, or a longsword +5 at L7) If you don't provide some guidelines on how you can spend the bonuses, people will find ways to bend the rules to get what they want. The only problem I see with removing the Concentration prereq is that it would allow a L2 Human Monk to pick up Enlightened Warrior (getting quick draw, +2 weapon, +Wis to attack/damage instead of Str). I might concede to cutting the concentration requirements in half (to 6 ranks each), which would allow either Enlightened Warrior or Mindseye Acuity as bonus feats at L6 (instead of the usual L9), which might be feasible... My primary hesitation is that the Monk gets all of his cool abilities because he has to deal with MAD as a balancing factor. Letting him circumvent that balancing factor too easily or too quickly could be something we'd regret. incorrect use (special ability cost exceeding the enhancement bonus but this could and should be stated more explicitly than it is currently done)Technically this is allowed by the existing rules, assuming that the character has at least a +1 bonus on his mindblade. Thus a +1/+2 combo is valid, but you run the risk of losing the abilities when/if you lose focus (unless you burn a feat on Inner Focus), which makes it a little bit "safer" to use a +2/+1 combo. I would NEVER approve of a Feat which has "Throw all prerequisites out the window if the character is a Monk" Special.Do you allow Stunning Fist in your games? Because it is a prime example of just such a feat. (It tosses all prereqs including the BAB +8, though typically a Monk will meet the Wis prereq and will always meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prereq)
angellis_ater 01-03-06, 08:40 PM	Technically this is allowed by the existing rules, assuming that the character has at least a +1 bonus on his mindblade. Thus a +1/+2 combo is valid, but you run the risk of losing the abilities when/if you lose focus (unless you burn a feat on Inner Focus), which makes it a little bit "safer" to use a +2/+1 combo. I would personally suggest that we go with something like "the enhancement bonus must be higher or equal to the total bonus from special abilities". This was atleast the way I envisioned it, can you give me a good reason not to go down this path? Do you allow Stunning Fist in your games? Because it is a prime example of just such a feat. (It tosses all prereqs including the BAB +8, though typically a Monk will meet the Wis prereq and will always meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prereq) Good point. Yes, I allow Stunning Fist. The design choice there was made by the WotC team and if a person would ask me "Can I take it at lvl 3" for example I would probably say Yes, because that BAB requirement is pretty silly. The fact that it is better in the hands of a Monk is a different part overall. On Soulblade Warrior: If we remove the "counts as 2 [Mindblade] Feats" part I personally think we should add some other kind of bonus. Even with it being a useful part for other Feats, it is generally too weak. Perhaps a bonus on the Concentration roll to keep the blade manifested in a AMF? On Special Abilities: I feel we should also start to map out what Special Abilities to allow the Mindbladers to use! Right now I feel that the Soulknife list is a good start, but that we could very well add others without making it too good. I would suggest the following to be added to the list: Brilliant Energy Defending Ki Focus Speed Some additions might come in the form of feats, for example "Pyrokinetic Blade" - add "Flaming" and "Flaming Burst" to your list of Special Abilities available. If you also have "Shield of Thought", add "Fire Resistance" as a +1 bonus ability. I would suggest the following "Feats": Pyrokinetic Blade (Flaming + Flaming Burst) Cryokinetic Blade (Frost + Icy Burst) Electrokinetic Blade (Shock + Shocking Burst) Slayers Blade (Disrupting + Ghost Touch) XXX-Bane (XXX-bane) Holy/Unholy (Holy/Unholy) Having these as Feats limits the possibilities for abuse and adds theme to the character. Alternatively we can have the above Special Abilities for a higher cost? Or we just scrap them or add them in general. IDeas?
drunkenewok 01-03-06, 10:13 PM	I would personally suggest that we go with something like "the enhancement bonus must be higher or equal to the total bonus from special abilities". This was atleast the way I envisioned it, can you give me a good reason not to go down this path?That works for me, just involves changing the text a bit. If we remove the "counts as 2 [Mindblade] Feats" part I personally think we should add some other kind of bonus. Even with it being a useful part for other Feats, it is generally too weak. Perhaps a bonus on the Concentration roll to keep the blade manifested in a AMF?We could use a Conc bonus, but then it's subpar until very high levels (when you start running into AMFs), and the DC25 Conc check isn't all that hard by the time you're making the checks. I'd think that a +2 to Initiative (that stacks with Imp Init) would fit the existing feat nicely, and not be overpowering. On Special Abilities: I feel we should also start to map out what Special Abilities to allow the Mindbladers to use! Right now I feel that the Soulknife list is a good start, but that we could very well add others without making it too good.I was originally under the impression that the list was open (i.e. you could pick any enhancement, without restriction), but I think your suggestions for additions to the list are all fine. I might also add Merciful, Distance, and Seeking to the list of "free" enhancements. (though the latter two would only actually work when you throw the mindblade, thus making them somewhat sub-par for their actual bonus) My only real concern with requiring feats to expand the list of abilities is that it's going to make the already intensive tree even more intensive. Though that might not be bad, since a character will have to specialize in something, since they can't get everything. The energy feats could be bundled into a single feat, since you still have to spend the enhancement on adding the bonus... or we could tone them down (and spice them up flavor-wise) by splitting by energy type. I'd probably bundle all the Bane abilities together, given that they are pretty tough to use effectively. I'd just make the prereqs sufficient to keep it out of the lower levels. Similarly with the aligned feats (Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic), with the restriction that you can't use an alignment that is opposite your own (thus a LG mindblader couldn't use Unholy or Anarchic, but a N character could use any? or should we make a N character choose which to take?) Alternatively, you could just change the cost on Bane (to +2), since it's the only one that's significantly better if you can change it semi-regularly. I'm not even sure it's necessary, given that you can only change the abilities once per day...
angellis_ater 01-04-06, 07:39 AM	That works for me, just involves changing the text a bit. Excellent, because I think that goes better with the original idea the Soulknife had and in the end allows us to stay away from a +5/+6 blade which I am sure can become broken. We could use a Conc bonus, but then it's subpar until very high levels (when you start running into AMFs), and the DC25 Conc check isn't all that hard by the time you're making the checks. I'd think that a +2 to Initiative (that stacks with Imp Init) would fit the existing feat nicely, and not be overpowering. Sounds like a good idea, perhaps we should make it "insight bonus" instead of just a general bonus? It works very well as a general bonus though and makes it a good choice. You decide. I was originally under the impression that the list was open (i.e. you could pick any enhancement, without restriction), but I think your suggestions for additions to the list are all fine. I might also add Merciful, Distance, and Seeking to the list of "free" enhancements. (though the latter two would only actually work when you throw the mindblade, thus making them somewhat sub-par for their actual bonus) I personally think it'd be smarter to stay with the Soulknife list and extend it slightly. Perhaps we can have a Main List (equal to the Soulknife one) and a Bonus List with all other Special Abilities. Each [Mindblade Feat] allows you to add a +1 bonus to your list, or you can save them up to add a higher bonus to your Main List. Could be useful and give another little edge to focusing and specializing in the Mindblader feats. My only real concern with requiring feats to expand the list of abilities is that it's going to make the already intensive tree even more intensive. Though that might not be bad, since a character will have to specialize in something, since they can't get everything. With my above suggestion we still require feats, just not specific Feats for each choice? Similarly with the aligned feats (Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic), with the restriction that you can't use an alignment that is opposite your own (thus a LG mindblader couldn't use Unholy or Anarchic, but a N character could use any? or should we make a N character choose which to take?) Using my above suggestion, perhaps we should add something about "the character must be able to manifest this ability through his mindblade to add it to his Main List"? Then we have another thing to slow down "superbuilds". On the aligned feats I feel that every character should be able to get these if they work according to their Alignment. If they are Neutrals, well then they loose out on these four Special Abilities. Sometimes its better to take a stand. --- Regarding some of the Feat being available to Monks I've been doing some thinking and would suggest the following: We decide which feat can be taken at what level (ie 1st, 2nd or 6th) and let the Monk take it without prerequisites, just as with Stunning Fist. Thing is, I have even been thinking of letting the Monk "count as [Psionic]" for the [Mindblade] feats. First of all, the class' complete "Ki (whatever)" ideas, stunning fists and alot more meshes well with it being a "latent psionic" class. This requires us to fully take this stance and treat the class just like a PsyWar or Psion as well.
drunkenewok 01-04-06, 02:08 PM	Excellent, because I think that goes better with the original idea the Soulknife had and in the end allows us to stay away from a +5/+6 blade which I am sure can become broken.I don't know that a +5/+6 is any more "broken" than a +6/+5, so long as we prevent the +1/+10 or +10/+1 combos I think it's probably fine either way. But we can rewrite to require the enhancement bonus be greater. Sounds like a good idea, perhaps we should make it "insight bonus" instead of just a general bonus? It works very well as a general bonus though and makes it a good choice. You decide.Since I can't think of any other abilities that grant an insight bonus to Init, it would be effectively the same as an unnamed bonus, until someone decides to create another +X insight bonus to init. Since it's not a [Psionic] feat, I'm tempted to treat it more like a "normal" feat, and there are precedents for a +2 unnamed init feat (e.g. Blooded regional feat from FR/WoT, among others). If it were a [Psionic] feat, I'd agree that an insight bonus (which would be lost in an AMF) might make more sense, but as-is, I think general works fine. I personally think it'd be smarter to stay with the Soulknife list and extend it slightly. Perhaps we can have a Main List (equal to the Soulknife one) and a Bonus List with all other Special Abilities. Each [Mindblade Feat] allows you to add a +1 bonus to your list, or you can save them up to add a higher bonus to your Main List. Could be useful and give another little edge to focusing and specializing in the Mindblader feats.That would definitely cut down on any potential abuse, especially if we make any Bane selection require you specify the creature type (thus if you take Aberration Bane, Undead Bane, and Humanoid Bane, you've spent a total +3 to unlock special abilities, and not just +1 for all the Bane types). It'll be tricky to word it, but I don't think it's insurmountable. Using my above suggestion, perhaps we should add something about "the character must be able to manifest this ability through his mindblade to add it to his Main List"? Then we have another thing to slow down "superbuilds".What do you mean by "manifest this ability through his mindblade"? If the ability requires a spell/power to create the weapon, then the character needs that spell/power to use it on the mindblade? Or just have the spell/power on his list? I'm not really sure either is necessary. If we do go this route, it might be a good idea to allow the mindblader to change his chosen special abilities somehow, like a sorcerer can swap out spells as he levels. Or at least allow an "upgrade path" for related feats like Flaming and Flaming Burst (ie, spend +1 at L1 to get Flaming, then another +1 later on to upgrade it to Flaming Burst) On the aligned feats I feel that every character should be able to get these if they work according to their Alignment. If they are Neutrals, well then they loose out on these four Special Abilities. Sometimes its better to take a stand.So a LG mindblader could use Holy or Axiomatic, and a CG mindblader could use Holy or Anarchic, a NG could only use Holy, and a N couldn't use any? That works for me, but it's going to be tricky to word it... Regarding some of the Feat being available to Monks I've been doing some thinking and would suggest the following: We decide which feat can be taken at what level (ie 1st, 2nd or 6th) and let the Monk take it without prerequisites, just as with Stunning Fist.I actually think reducing the Conc ranks to half will suffice, but I wouldn't remove the feat prereqs (which Stunning Fist doesn't have), especially since it really doesn't make sense to get Mindseye Acuity without having Throw Mindblade (and without Soulblade Warrior too, it's not worth much). Thing is, I have even been thinking of letting the Monk "count as [Psionic]" for the [Mindblade] feats. First of all, the class' complete "Ki (whatever)" ideas, stunning fists and alot more meshes well with it being a "latent psionic" class. This requires us to fully take this stance and treat the class just like a PsyWar or Psion as well.I'm hesitant to take this step for general use. It would make an excellent house rule or recommended suggestion for those who get into the Mindblade tree, but in general I prefer not to change existing material unless it's absolutely necessary. I suppose we could add an the "Special" block allowing a Monk to take Form Mindblade as a bonus monk feat, even if he doesn't meet the prereqs... It's not the neatest way of doing it, but all the tidier ways involve changing the Monk class itself, which is something I'd rather not do.
angellis_ater 01-04-06, 08:00 PM	That would definitely cut down on any potential abuse, especially if we make any Bane selection require you specify the creature type (thus if you take Aberration Bane, Undead Bane, and Humanoid Bane, you've spent a total +3 to unlock special abilities, and not just +1 for all the Bane types). It'll be tricky to word it, but I don't think it's insurmountable. Which is exactly what I had in mind for the Bane Special Abilities. You want an Undead Bane? You have to buy it seperate from all the other Banes. What do you mean by "manifest this ability through his mindblade"? If the ability requires a spell/power to create the weapon, then the character needs that spell/power to use it on the mindblade? Or just have the spell/power on his list? I'm not really sure either is necessary. Sorry, seems I was unclear. His "special abilities bonus" needs to be high enough to use it before he can take it. Giving it a moments thought I realised it doesn't matter really, since they can't use it until the bonus is high enough. Who cares if a lvl 2 Mindblader has the Speed ability available for his blade, he's not getting it for his Mindblade until atleast lvl 13. If we do go this route, it might be a good idea to allow the mindblader to change his chosen special abilities somehow, like a sorcerer can swap out spells as he levels. Or at least allow an "upgrade path" for related feats like Flaming and Flaming Burst (ie, spend +1 at L1 to get Flaming, then another +1 later on to upgrade it to Flaming Burst) Upgrades yes, changing his special abilities, no. I feel that we are giving them quite enough of extra special abilities to use that they'll have to live with their choices. So a LG mindblader could use Holy or Axiomatic, and a CG mindblader could use Holy or Anarchic, a NG could only use Holy, and a N couldn't use any? That works for me, but it's going to be tricky to word it... Exactly, actually I think we can let them use both abilities if they qualify. We just have to add an * at the end of the special abilities list where we say *="only available if character is lawful/chaotic/evil/good". I actually think reducing the Conc ranks to half will suffice, but I wouldn't remove the feat prereqs (which Stunning Fist doesn't have), especially since it really doesn't make sense to get Mindseye Acuity without having Throw Mindblade (and without Soulblade Warrior too, it's not worth much). Then my suggestion is the following: Make "Monastic Blade" available to a Monk at level 1, "Soulblade Warrior" at level 2 and "Enlightened Warrior" at level 6. We remove "Mindseye Acuity" from those available to the Monk and stay with that. I'd suggest that we add a line in the [Mindblade Feats] area allowing Monks to count as "Psionic" for the purpose of taking [Mindblade] feats. Thus we have the entire problem solved. Either that or we throw everything that has to do with the Monk out of the window, because this is becoming too big a problem soon. We could possibly retain "Monastic Blade" and the reference to Mindblades counting as Monk weaponry, but otherwise I am getting sick and tired of trying to get this to work with the Monk without the class counting as being Psionic for this feat-tree. Just my opinion. :-)
angellis_ater 01-04-06, 09:17 PM	I've been thinking and I think we can go with 4+Int modifier skill points and focus on movement skills (Move Silently, Ride, Tumble, Hide, Climb, Jump, Swim). This is a first draft of the special abilities: 1st - Mindseye Archery, Skirmish (+1d6) 2nd - Add "Distance" and "Seeking" to Special Abilities, Mindstorm Arrows +1 3rd - Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC), Speed Beyond Thought +10 ft 4th - Composite Longbow Shape, Mindstorm Arrows +2 5th - Skirmish (+2d6, +1AC) 6th - Speed Beyond Thought +20 ft, Mindstorm Arrows +3 7th - Skirmish (+2d6, +2AC) 8th - Mindstorm Arrows +4 9th - Skirmish (+3d6, +2AC) 10th - Mindstorm, Mindstorm Arrows +5 Mindstorm Arrows: For ammunition for his Crystal Bow, every two levels of Mindstorm PrC counts as a [Mindblade] Feat starting at level 2. Right now it's kinda front-heavy and I was thinking about spread the Speed boosts out a little. Should we allow different shapes for the ranged weapon? That would make some interesting abilities. (Crystal Crossbows, hand crossbows and so forth?).
rampant 01-05-06, 04:03 AM	now since this feat tree is availiable to any class maybe certain classes should take a feat that unlocks a special set of abililities to be added to the list ok so a base list needs to be defined and then a few abilities for each class or class ability so a ranger who takes the soulknife hunter feat could select the bane quality of any of his favored enemies for his mindblade a rogue who takes soulknife striker would be able to select blurring, backstabbing, shadow abilities you know something along those lines other options could be availiable to anyone with enough training ok any character with 9 ranks craft alchemy could select the various elemental and burst powers by taking the Soulknife alchemist feat i'm biased but it sounds incredibly cool
angellis_ater 01-05-06, 05:09 AM	I think that would be better for a later project. Right now we need to finish these feats first, but your idea does have merit in the simple fact of a "DM's Guide to Mindblades" - a little text about how you can change the feel and theme of Mindblades to fit their campaign, together with hints on allowing Rangers to have a Bane on their list from the beginning or treating the Monk as a [Psionic] class for the [Mindblade] feat-tree.
drunkenewok 01-05-06, 01:11 PM	Mindstorm FLAVOR TEXT HERE Game Rule Information: Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d8 Requirements: Base Attack Bonus: +6 Feats: Speed of Thought, Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Special: Must create a crystal bow as a focus for the class abilities. Class Skills The mindstorm’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table 1: Mindstorm Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Save Save Save Special Powers Known 1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Mindseye Archery, - Skirmish (+1d6) 2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Ranged Mindblade, +1 level of existing manifesting class Mindstorm Arrows +1 3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC), - Speed Beyond Thought +10 ft 4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Mindstorm Arrows +2, +1 level of existing manifesting class Morphic Arrow (+1) 5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Skirmish (+2d6, +1AC) - 6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Speed Beyond Thought +20 ft, +1 level of existing manifesting class Mindstorm Arrows +3 7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +2AC) - 8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Mindstorm Arrows +4, +1 level of existing manifesting class Morphic Arrow (+2) 9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Skirmish (+3d6, +2AC) - 10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Mindstorm, Mindstorm Arrows +5 +1 level of existing manifesting class Mindseye Archery: DESCRIPTION OF MINDSEYE ARCHERY ABILITY Skirmish: DESCRIPTION OF SKIRMISH ABILITY Ranged Mindblade: You add the "Distance" and "Seeking" special abilities to the list of abilities you can place on your mindblade. Speed Beyond Thought: At level 3, the insight bonus provided by the Speed of Thought feat increases by 10 ft (to a total of 20 ft.). At level 6, it increases to a total of 30 ft. Material Harmonics: As a free action, you can expend your focus to change the frequency of your mindblade arrows to match a specific special material. Once changed, your mindblade arrows are considered to be made of the chosen material for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. You must have come into physical contact with a special material in order to use it with this ability. Morphic Arrow: To use this ability, you must voluntarily reduce the total cost of special abilities on your mindblade by 1. In return, you can specify a single special ability (costing no more than +1 enhancement) to apply to your mindblade arrows as a swift action. This special ability only applies to your mindblade arrows, and not to any other form your mindblade might take. The special ability remains in effect until you change it with this ability. At level 8, you can choose a special ability that costs no more than +2 enhancement bonus. Mindstorm: At 10th level, in lieu of her regular attacks, once per day a mindstorm can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every mindstorm level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow. Mindstorm (Alternate): As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you may fire a single mindblade arrow at each and every target within 30 ft. Each attack is at your highest attack bonus, and only one arrow may be fired at each target. If you also have the Bladestorm feat, you can increase the range of this ability to the range of your soulbow. (add a limit on number of targets? Conc ranks? Class Level? Character Level? add a limited use/day?) @rampant - I like your class-based feat ideas, but I agree they'd be better as a special addendum section, which I'll try to get into the system when I get a chance. The Mindstorm template above is mainly meant as a draft to work off of, rather than a finished version. I'm personally very fond of the Morphic Arrows idea, and I think it'd exceptionally cool ability without getting out of hand (especially given the recent suggested revisions to the special ability list) I'm also fond of the Material Harmonics ability, but didn't plug it into the progression because it's getting crowded. I think it's reasonably balanced (maybe a little on the powerful side) as-is, though it might not hurt to drop the BAB to average (3/4) instead of good (1/1). We could also choose to slow down the Skirmish/Mindblade Arrow progression(s) and in return bump up either the Will save (to good) or the ML progression (to 7/10 instead of 5/10). I also contemplated adding autohypnosis to the skill list, but decided against it because the list was already pretty impressive. (It's currently a blend of the Arcane Archer and the Elocater). Though I like the idea of allowing more than a single form (i.e. crossbow, hand crossbow, repeating crossbow) I'm not sure it's a good idea. How does a crossbow work with reloading, since you don't have to winch anything back? Can you use any of the missile weapon types you're proficient with, without any reload time penalties? What about a sling? Can you make a crystal sling as a focus? I'm tempted to just leave it at bows, and allow any type of bow (normal or composite, long or short) starting at L1, and it's treated as a Mindblade for the purposes of proficiency/weapon-specific feats. (Which should be added to the Mindseye Archery text). Allowing composite bows at L1 allows +10 ft. range, usable while mounted, and Str to damage, which isn't all that big a deal considering the prereqs for the PrC.
Ra-Tiel 01-05-06, 01:40 PM	Hi. === Wow... a great load of work you people have put into this. :) But I have a "but" to say about the idea of making the Soulknife class a set of feats available to all classes: while you're already at it, could you please make the Warlock a feat tree? and the Warmage? the Paladin? the Bard? the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? ... I guess you get my idea. I'm really impressed by your work, effort and ideas you've put into this thread, but I must admit that personally I find this a little bit... well... unnecessary and pointless. What's the point of making one class's abilities a feat tree and therefore available to all other classes, while other classes remain in their current form? Why not take yet another step and try to make something like the "Uber Generics" idea from the Unearthed Arcana boards (alas, I've lost the link to the thread and forgot the name of the original poster :( )? Or take the basic idea from the d20 EQ2rpg regarding classes and class features? Because I find it a little "strange" that a bard, a paladin, a barbarian, and a sorcerer can acquire some of the class features of the Soulknife, but not the other way round. Of course, the Soulknife class would cease to exist when using your - very well thought out - idea, but why are other classes not also "transformed"? I don't want to discourage you in the least, but that's just my opinion on the topic. --- And regarding the policy of "quoting" with sblocks... I find that extremely hard to read, because I don't use variable width, but have the standard fixed width active for the WotC boards and instead of scrolling while reading, I have to click to open the sblock, scroll while reading, when done reading scroll up, and click again to close the sblock. And when I leave the sblock open, the thread takes even more space on the screen, so I don't see the point of always putting all and everything in sblocks. I know that you started that to not loose your "quote-reference" as quotes are lost while quoting again, but also answering and commenting in sblocks? That's a bit too much, in my opinion. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-05-06, 01:56 PM	I am OK with letting the Mindstorm have any kind of bow at first level. We could also conclude that everyone will be using the Composite Longbow (no reason not to) so perhaps we should add that as the "base" Mindseye Bow and just state that other forms are available if the user wants them. We throw out everything else and just go with bows, to minimize fuss. I liked the class and in general I'd say that Morphic Arrows sounds like a cool ability which wouldn't be too powerful in any situation. Regarding the Mindstorm ability I think we should go with the alternate version, since it gives incentive to continue expanding the Mindblade feat-tree even for an archer type character. I also think we should cap the use at between 1-3/day as a maximum, because with Bladestorm it'd get truthfully dangerous. Perhaps a target cap at "Concentration Ranks" would do well in there. But when it comes to dangerous, we might have forgotten their Skirmish ability. It works like this: move 10 ft or more, get bonus. Since Mindstorm is a standard action they can move and then fire. That would mean that each arrow would do 1d8+3d6+Wis+Str+enhancement+whatever special abilities are tacked on - for each arrow. That's pretty hard. Just a heads up, might be that this isn't insanely good after all. On Material Harmonics: You haven't stated how long the "material" lasts? Is it "permanent" until changed? We can thin out the Skirmish ability to give him a bonus at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th instead of as it is now, which gives us some room for Material Harmonics and retaining full BAB (which I think is nice).
angellis_ater 01-05-06, 02:04 PM	Ra-Tiel: Because the Soulknife class, as it is, is a weak idea based around a cool concept. We took the concept and applied it to feats, thus allowing more flexibility around a concept most psionic characters should have a chance at manifesting. It is not good enough to warrant a base 20-level class, but it does make for very flavorful characters. Either way, this project was meant as a way for me to incorporate the Mindblade in this way in my campaign world. Others liked the idea and helped me develop it (going so far as it being more drunkenewoks work at times than mine) and I see no reason not to share it for those that are interested in such a solution. I know alot of people that look at the Soulknife and go "Oohhh, that's cool. But I ain't playing it for 20 levels". And I must say I feel the same. I first came to this conclusion trying to find a "mix" between the Soulknife and Monk classes for the Khraan race in my world.
Ra-Tiel 01-05-06, 04:08 PM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Ra-Tiel: Because the Soulknife class, as it is, is a weak idea based around a cool concept. A weak idea based around a cool concept? Is the class weak just because the guys in the CO board can't munch it out? :confused: I've played a level 13 soulknife, and from my experience it was far from weak. With Power Attack, Deep Impact, Greater Psionic Weapon and a two-handed bastard sword style mindblade I've killed devourers with a single hit. Alas, a poorly rolled save against a finger of death ended my career before I could get Spring Attack. :( In my opinion one basic behind the soulknife is that the mindblade is another form of psychic talent, not an additional one. I find it just wierd having a manifester manifest a mindblade. --- We took the concept and applied it to feats, thus allowing more flexibility around a concept most psionic characters should have a chance at manifesting. But could the same not also be applied to the innate form of spellcasting a sorcerer shows? Or the divine blessing a paladin receives? Or the leading abilities of a marshall? --- It is not good enough to warrant a base 20-level class, but it does make for very flavorful characters. What is then good enough? One could argue that the ability to lead others (marshall), inspire others (bard), to sling less powerful spell-like abilities around all the day (warlock) is not good enough to warrant a 20 level base class. What makes the Soulknife less valuable as a class than the other classes outside the classical four (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue, in no particular order)? --- Either way, this project was meant as a way for me to incorporate the Mindblade in this way in my campaign world. Others liked the idea and helped me develop it (going so far as it being more drunkenewoks work at times than mine) and I see no reason not to share it for those that are interested in such a solution. Good to hear! As said, I don't want to discourage you, I was merely wondering about the reasons why specifically and exclusively the Soulknife. :) --- I know alot of people that look at the Soulknife and go "Oohhh, that's cool. But I ain't playing it for 20 levels". And I must say I feel the same. Why wouldn't they play it for 20 levels? Do they think it's weak? Do they think it's not cool enough? Do they think that they could optimize another class much better? Or do they think that any character not incorporating 2 base classes and 4 prestige classes isn't worth playing? This sounds horrifyingly similar to the "Lightsaber syndrom" from the SWd20. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
drunkenewok 01-05-06, 05:12 PM	I'm really impressed by your work, effort and ideas you've put into this thread, but I must admit that personally I find this a little bit... well... unnecessary and pointless.One could just as easily argue that posting to a board for RPG gamers, or even playing RPGs in general is unnecessary and pointless. Yet we both pursue these endeavors. What's the point of making one class's abilities a feat tree and therefore available to all other classes, while other classes remain in their current form?If you're asking "Why?", then the simple answer is: because I want to, because I enjoy doing it, and because no one else has done it before (at least not that I'm totally satisfied with). The longer answer involves years of mental illness and an overwhelming need to exercise my intellect on potentially pointless endeavors, along with more logical reasoning (such as that provided by angellis_ater above). If you're asking why we aren't converting the entire d20 class system to feat system, my reason is that I'm just not that ambitious, and as you pointed out, there are already people or completed commercial systems doing just that. Personally, I don't see why the motives behind our madness make much difference. If you feel that the soulknife class as presented in the SRD is fine and shouldn't be butchered into a feat tree, then you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. If so, I'd recommend ignoring this thread, rather than trying to proselytize us to your point of view. And regarding the policy of "quoting" with sblocks... I find that extremely hard to readFor the record, I use sblocks primarily to sort and organize my thoughts and comments, and make it easier to go back and find them again. If my post is composed of multiple discrete sections, I could break it down into multiple posts, or delimit it using "-" or "=" separators, or I can condense everything into a single sblock. I'll admit that it can be slightly more difficult to read the first time through, since you do have to open each sblock (which instigates a 1-2 second delay per sblock), and that it does take more space when all the sblocks are left open. However, when I need to find a specific bit of information posted in one of the compilation threads (or any earlier post), I find it infinitely easier to locate what I'm looking for using the sblocks. If I'm trying to quote and answer from more than 2-3 previous posts, the sblock-ing makes it even easier. (I personally find it annoying when I'm trying to find a post that's more than 2-3 posts in the history and have to scroll for miles through un-sblock-d posts that I have no desire or need to reread to find it.) I also tend to sblock my responses if they are longer than about 2 screen lengths (at 1280x1024 resolution), simply because it keeps the total length of the thread to a more manageable level. I know I tend to ramble a lot, and my posts are typically much longer than the average post, so I prefer to minimize the onscreen impact for those who aren't especially interested in what I have to say. Ultimately, if you don't like the way I post things, you are under no obligation to read them. (i.e., I'm not asking you to change the way you post, even though it annoys me at times, so I see no reason to accede to your request just because you find my methods "odd") Regarding the Mindstorm ability I think we should go with the alternate version, since it gives incentive to continue expanding the Mindblade feat-tree even for an archer type character. I also think we should cap the use at between 1-3/day as a maximum, because with Bladestorm it'd get truthfully dangerous. Perhaps a target cap at "Concentration Ranks" would do well in there.I'd probably apply either a use/day limit OR a target limit, not both. If we cap the number of targets at Concentration ranks, then the Mindstorm ability isn't really much better than the Bladestorm feat (and imho, a L10 PrC ability should be better than a feat). After a little more thought, I'd say that it should only be usable 1/day if we don't have a cap on targets. If we do have a cap on targets, it could be usable 3/day or 1/day/Wis mod. Another potential option would be to have it default to a full-round action, which could be reduced to a standard action if you take the Bladestorm feat. But when it comes to dangerous, we might have forgotten their Skirmish ability. It works like this: move 10 ft or more, get bonus. Since Mindstorm is a standard action they can move and then fire. That would mean that each arrow would do 1d8+3d6+Wis+Str+enhancement+whatever special abilities are tacked on - for each arrow. That's pretty hard. Just a heads up, might be that this isn't insanely good after all.I originally picked a standard action because the Mindstorm feels like a character who is always on the move, and I didn't want their signature ability to work against that. Just for curiosity's sake, let's take a character with 24 Str and 30 Wis and a frost holy undead bane shocking burst mindarrow +5, with at least 23 undead in range. If the character moves at least 10 ft, his total damage is 1d8 (base) + 3d6 (skirmish) + 7 (str) + 10 (wis) + 7 (enhancement+bane) + 2d6 (bane) + 2d6 (holy) + 1d6 (shock) + 1d6 (frost) = 1d8 + 9d6 + 24 (avg 60) damage per shot, or 1380 average damage if he hits every target. Hmm... that's a lot. :) Requirements: 8+ feats, level 10 PrC ability Of course, in a similar situation, a psion 20 who's used split chain energy conversion and has 60 points of sonic damage stored up can deal (60+20*30)*2 = 1320 damage on a pair of touch attacks (instead of 23 regular attacks). And he can do it every round, and at a distant cluster of targets. (assuming the DM allows unlimited storage or the psion has a pair of energy walls to recharge.) Requirements: 1 power, 2 feats Or a sorc/wiz 20 with a vanilla chain lightning, who can deal 70+35*20 = 770 damage with a single unmodified 6th level spell. Tack on Empower, Maximize, and/or Energy Admixture, and you're right up there with Mindstorm damage. Truthfully, I've never been in such an optimal situation. In the right circumstances, it'll be very powerful, but those circumstances don't come up too often. We throw out everything else and just go with bows, to minimize fuss.Works fine for me. There is also one situation where a character might not choose the Composite Longbow: if he only has proficiency with the shortbow. It doesn't happen often, but it is possible. (e.g.: Rogue/Bard, or Cleric/Druid/Monk/Sorc/Wiz who takes the Martial Weapon Proficiency (shortbow) as a feat) I liked the class and in general I'd say that Morphic Arrows sounds like a cool ability which wouldn't be too powerful in any situation.They would be too powerful if Bane were not a restricted ability. e.g. at the start of every round, you declare your arrows Bane XXX, where XXX is whatever target you happen to be shooting at. That particular hole is the reason it took me this long to post the idea (i.e. I was trying to come up with a way to prevent changing the Bane type, but allow other +1 abilities, and I wasn't having any luck until you decided to restrict the special ability list.) On Material Harmonics: You haven't stated how long the "material" lasts? Is it "permanent" until changed?Given that it's not that incredible, I'd intended it to be permanent until changed, though we could add a time limit (maybe 1 minute?) if you really want. We can thin out the Skirmish ability to give him a bonus at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th instead of as it is now, which gives us some room for Material Harmonics and retaining full BAB (which I think is nice).Reducing the Skirmish progression will also somewhat alleviate the Mindstorm best-case scenario, since you're losing 1d6 damage off the top. How about this as a modified class table: Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Save Save Save Special Powers Known 1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Mindseye Archery, Material Harmonics - 2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Skirmish (+1d6) +1 level of existing manifesting class 3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Speed Beyond Thought +10 ft - 4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Morphic Arrow (+1) +1 level of existing manifesting class 5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC) - 6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Speed Beyond Thought +20 ft +1 level of existing manifesting class 7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Morphic Arrow (+2) - 8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Skirmish (+2d6, +1AC) +1 level of existing manifesting class 9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Mindkiller - 10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Mindstorm +1 level of existing manifesting class Roll the Mindstorm Arrows ability into the Mindseye Archery ability description (or the ML progression) and preferably move the Arrows opposite the the MLs (arrows on odd levels, MLs on even levels) Cut down Skirmish to a 3-step progression, and moved it to 2/5/8 where it would fit more nicely Rearranged the abilities so we only have one ability at each level Added the Mindkiller ability: As a move action, you can expend your focus to convert a single mindstorm arrow with the Bane special ability into a Slaying Arrow of the same type. If it hits, the arrow does no damage, but the target must make a Fortitude save or be destroyed. DC = 10 + class level + Charisma modifier (I picked Charisma for the save because a little MAD will help tone down the drive to get an insanely high Wis.) We could move Material Harmonics to L2 to discourage dipping, but it's mild enough I don't think it's necessary I'd like to add Shot on the Run to either the prereqs or as a freebie feat somewhere, given that it really fits the theme - it would make a rough prereq (needing 3 more feats to qualify), so I'm leaning toward putting it in the progression somewhere, maybe L5? Or we could drop Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot from the prereqs and add Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run instead?
rampant 01-06-06, 02:27 AM	there still needs to be a base list to draw the abilities from should I assume that we are using the list from the 3.5 class
Ra-Tiel 01-06-06, 03:51 AM	Hi. === @drunkenewok: [...] If you're asking why we aren't converting the entire d20 class system to feat system, my reason is that I'm just not that ambitious, and as you pointed out, there are already people or completed commercial systems doing just that. Please note that I've lost track of the progress of "Uber Generics" (thanks to a lack of search on these boards :rolleyes: and a reinstalled OS on my computer) and the EQ2rpg from SSS is basically as good as dead, because since the launch in Feb'05 exactly one book has been published (the Player's Guide) and the system is basically unplayable as the Player's Guide contains 0 content about the magical classes. Also, the EQ2rpg uses a completely different method of class management, with 4 base archetypes (priest, mage, fighter, scout), and classes and advanced classes building on these archetypes - not unlike prestige classes build on base classes in DnD. It's a very different concept from what you are building here. ;) --- [...] If so, I'd recommend ignoring this thread, rather than trying to proselytize us to your point of view. Could you please quote the very passage where I tried to "convert you to my point of view"? Thank you. :waits: --- [...] I also tend to sblock my responses if they are longer than about 2 screen lengths (at 1280x1024 resolution), simply because it keeps the total length of the thread to a more manageable level. I know I tend to ramble a lot, and my posts are typically much longer than the average post, so I prefer to minimize the onscreen impact for those who aren't especially interested in what I have to say. What does it matter if your posts are longer than 2 pages? People who aren't interested in reading them could always just scroll by them. That's a little extra work for a few. But with your current setup, it's "a lot" of work for all who are interested (= much more than "a few") in your posts. Also, sometimes I remember that I've read something interesting in a thread, but don't remember the exact post that contains what I'm looking for, so I can skim over the thread and quickly read over all the posts, and usually I find the bit of information I sought kind of quickly. But in a thread where people posted like you do I have to stop, click, read, and click again at every sblocke-d post... --- Ultimately, if you don't like the way I post things, you are under no obligation to read them. (i.e., I'm not asking you to change the way you post, even though it annoys me at times, so I see no reason to accede to your request just because you find my methods "odd"). Emphasis in red. Could you please explain to me when, why and how my style of posting annoyed you? You're really the first person telling me that. Please... === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
drunkenewok 01-06-06, 11:11 AM	@Ra-Tiel - If you'd like to discuss the actual topic (i.e. Mindblade Feats, the Mindstorm PrC, any balance/game-play issues regarding either that might concern you, or anything even tangentially related to either) I'm more than happy to debate your ideas. If you'd rather continue the debate about whether we're undertaking a pointless venture, or about how my posting style makes your life difficult, please feel free to PM me, as I'd rather not derail the thread. Thanks. there still needs to be a base list to draw the abilities from should I assume that we are using the list from the 3.5 classLast I knew, we were planning to use the base list from the 3.5e version of the soulknife unmodified. Any additional options will come from selecting extra mindblade feats. I'll try to get a copy of v0.7 (with all the latest changes) into the thread by Monday... :)
Ra-Tiel 01-06-06, 02:38 PM	Hi. === @drunkenewok: If you'd like to discuss the actual topic (i.e. Mindblade Feats, the Mindstorm PrC, any balance/game-play issues regarding either that might concern you, or anything even tangentially related to either) I'm more than happy to debate your ideas. As you wish! ;) :D Indeed I have a few questions. To get all the abilities the Soulknife class currently offers, you need at least 12 (13) feats, right? (Wild Talent) Form Mindblade Throw Mindblade Soulblade Warrior Inner Focus Resonant Blade (5x) Knife to the Soul Shape Mindblade Bladewind Considering that a fighter gets 11 bonus feats, a psychic warrior "only" 8, and the promise that some of you think that the soulknife is "a weak idea based around a cool concept", don't you think that 12 or 13 feats is a bit much? Having to spend almost 2/3 of the feats the most feat heavy class in the game gains for such a - questionable - benefit is a bit heavy in my opinion. Also, as we all know, a fighter needs his feats for things like Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Improved Disarm/Sunder/Trip, Improved Initiative,... - feats that enhance his general combat abilities. If I'd play a fighter, I'd probably spend my feats on things like that instead of your [mindblade] feats, because the rate of return is much better. Also, allowing some/all/all [mindblade] feats as bonus feats for monks/fighters/psychic warriors could increase the phenomenon of level dips into that classes just because for the additional benefit of gaining a [mindblade] feat "for free". To mind come things like a human psywar1/ranger1/fighter2/psywar1) and I'm sure the CO board can come up with much worse combinations. The "build" above could get the following feats: Human bonus feat: Form Mindblade Level 1 feat: Throw Mindblade Psywar 1 bonus feat: Soulblade Warrior Level 3 feat: Resonating Blade Fighter 1 bonus feat: Resonating Blade Fighter 2 bonus feat: Inner Focus Psywar 2 bonus feat: Shape Mindblade He would be able to have Concentration maxed out, and could shape his mindblade into a +2 collision greatsword, for 2d6+2+5+4 (assuming 16 str) = 2d6+11 points of damage per hit, and add a +2d8 points of untyped damage on his first attack. That would be 2d6+11+2d8, for an averag of 27 points of damage in the first round, and every round thereafter an average of 18 points of damage, all with a two-handed weapon that cannot effectively removed from him at all (disarm and sunder are useless, as the character has Soulblade Warrior and could recreate the blade as a swift (better: free) action). What CR 5 creature would be a challenge for that fighter? Oh, I forgot that the character could also use powers like Expansion or Prescience, offensive for even more "OOMPH!". I know, in some aspects your variant is a bit stronger than the SRD Soulknife (Resonant blade more useful than psychic strike; Shape Mindblade feat more flexible than the class ability), but in other aspects it's also much weaker (spending focus causes loss of all special abilities on mindblade). And what happens if I have a +3 keen collision mindblade and use Deep Impact? To use the feat I have to spend my psionic focus, and the description of your Mindblade section states that I loose any special abilities when not psionically focused. When I don't already have Inner Focus (because eg I'm an elf, or have spend a feat on something other than the focus feat), wouldn't that be a bit contra-productive? I use a combat-enhancing feat and become a weaker combatant? :confused: As it now stands, at most you can have a +11 equivalent weapon at level 20, right? How do you feel of giving out an epic weapon to a level 20 character? According to the SRD, a +6 weapon with +5 worth in special abilities is worth 2,420,000gp + the cost of the mw weapon. On the other hand, a +5 weapon with +6 worth of special abilities is worth only 242,000gp + the cost of the mw weapon. I see a slight problem here. Do you think that this difference is fair? And don't you think that giving out a weapon worth almost 2,5 million gp for "only" 12 feats? Also, I think there's a problem with your description of Throw Mindblade in combination with Soulblade Warrior. It says Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. and Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements.. The problem is this: swift action A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action. Casting a quickened spell is a swift action (instead of a free action, as stated in the Quicken Spell feat description in the Player's Handbook). In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action (such as choose destiny) is a swift action. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity. My emphasises added in red. I think you know what I want to tell... === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-06-06, 08:15 PM	Mindstorm PrC Comments on changes: I think that Material Harmonics should spread out a little over the levels, giving the Mindstorm access to a new, but permanent, material at ever 2 levels or something. You could start with silver - cold iron - adamantine and even add in darkwood and deep crystal in there (especially deep crystal adds some extra ideas to the build) I agree with Manifester level progression and Mindstorm Arrow progression as well as the lowered Skirmish ability, but do we need to restrict ourselves to just "one ability per level"? I like the Mindkiller, but think we can do something more thematic and interesting rather than a Slaying Arrow. Make it a "Will save negates" and let the arrow do all its "normal" damage to Int/Wis instead. In general we can expect a good 15-25 damage which would kill most creatures or give them a huge penalty! What do you think? I think we should have the Mindstorm ability work on all targets within range (30 ft at start and normal range with Bladestorm) and usable only once per day. Also gives a nice synergy with a movement based class if we keep it a standard action, make a REALLY fast move into the right place and fire off Mindstorm! I can see Shot on the Run either as a freebie feat inbetween the "Speed beyond Thought" abilities or after them, in progression. Gives a nice feeling for the "speedy shooter" theme as well.
angellis_ater 01-07-06, 07:39 PM	To get all the abilities the Soulknife class currently offers, you need at least 12 (13) feats, right? (Wild Talent) Form Mindblade Throw Mindblade Soulblade Warrior Inner Focus Resonant Blade (5x) Knife to the Soul Shape Mindblade Bladewind Considering that a fighter gets 11 bonus feats, a psychic warrior "only" 8, and the promise that some of you think that the soulknife is "a weak idea based around a cool concept", don't you think that 12 or 13 feats is a bit much? Having to spend almost 2/3 of the feats the most feat heavy class in the game gains for such a - questionable - benefit is a bit heavy in my opinion. Answer: Yeah, the idea is that a Human Fighter who wants to recreate the entire Soulknife class is getting a D10 for Hit Points, full BAB and access to Weapon Specialization for example. I personally feel this more than makes up for having to spend all your feats and then some. Also, allowing some/all/all [mindblade] feats as bonus feats for monks/fighters/psychic warriors could increase the phenomenon of level dips into that classes just because for the additional benefit of gaining a [mindblade] feat "for free". To mind come things like a human psywar1/ranger1/fighter2/psywar1) and I'm sure the CO board can come up with much worse combinations. The "build" above could get the following feats: Human bonus feat: Form Mindblade Level 1 feat: Throw Mindblade Psywar 1 bonus feat: Soulblade Warrior Level 3 feat: Resonating Blade Fighter 1 bonus feat: Resonating Blade Fighter 2 bonus feat: Inner Focus Psywar 2 bonus feat: Shape Mindblade He would be able to have Concentration maxed out, and could shape his mindblade into a +2 collision greatsword, for 2d6+2+5+4 (assuming 16 str) = 2d6+11 points of damage per hit, and add a +2d8 points of untyped damage on his first attack. That would be 2d6+11+2d8, for an averag of 27 points of damage in the first round, and every round thereafter an average of 18 points of damage, all with a two-handed weapon that cannot effectively removed from him at all (disarm and sunder are useless, as the character has Soulblade Warrior and could recreate the blade as a swift (better: free) action). What CR 5 creature would be a challenge for that fighter? Oh, I forgot that the character could also use powers like Expansion or Prescience, offensive for even more "OOMPH!". Answer: A normal Fighter with a dip in PsyWar could recreate that with Psionic Weapon or a Deep Crystal Greatsword, Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization. Actually, he could probably get a +2 Deep Crystal Greatsword and still have money left for other things, while having Feats (as you pointed out above) usable for other things. Not to forget a BAB of +6/+1 while your build has a BAB of +4. So, one more attack more than makes up for that extra damage from collision, not to forget those nice feats. I know, in some aspects your variant is a bit stronger than the SRD Soulknife (Resonant blade more useful than psychic strike; Shape Mindblade feat more flexible than the class ability), but in other aspects it's also much weaker (spending focus causes loss of all special abilities on mindblade). And what happens if I have a +3 keen collision mindblade and use Deep Impact? To use the feat I have to spend my psionic focus, and the description of your Mindblade section states that I loose any special abilities when not psionically focused. When I don't already have Inner Focus (because eg I'm an elf, or have spend a feat on something other than the focus feat), wouldn't that be a bit contra-productive? I use a combat-enhancing feat and become a weaker combatant? :confused: The same as with every other ability which requires you to hold focus vs one which requires you expend it. You can't use an EXPEND focus ability if you want to keep the abilities gained by holding focus. This is actually a game/rules specific question you shouldn't ask us about. If you use one feat you loose the advantage of another, this is correct. It is a choice you make and a mechanic which limits the power of the Mindblade feat. What is wrong with that? It's like saying that when expending your focus to enhance your AC with a Metapsionic feat (lets say Extend Power) and loose the AC bonus from Psionic Dodge. It isn't part of our mechanical problems, it is a problem of choice each character must make. As it now stands, at most you can have a +11 equivalent weapon at level 20, right? How do you feel of giving out an epic weapon to a level 20 character? According to the SRD, a +6 weapon with +5 worth in special abilities is worth 2,420,000gp + the cost of the mw weapon. On the other hand, a +5 weapon with +6 worth of special abilities is worth only 242,000gp + the cost of the mw weapon. I see a slight problem here. Do you think that this difference is fair? And don't you think that giving out a weapon worth almost 2,5 million gp for "only" 12 feats? Ah, a very good point. Perhaps we SHOULD cap the enhancement bonus at +5 and add an [Epic, Mindblade] feat which allows the cap to go above +5? Also, I think there's a problem with your description of Throw Mindblade in combination with Soulblade Warrior. No, there's no problem. The two feats together allow for a limited and more effective use for this purpose only.
Ra-Tiel 01-07-06, 09:10 PM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Answer: Yeah, the idea is that a Human Fighter who wants to recreate the entire Soulknife class is getting a D10 for Hit Points, full BAB and access to Weapon Specialization for example. I personally feel this more than makes up for having to spend all your feats and then some. So, like 13 feats for the soulknife feat tree, wf, ws, gwf, gws... and then what? Now I have only 2 feats left to make an effective combatant? Somehow I know that this just won't cut it... :rolleyes: --- Answer: A normal Fighter with a dip in PsyWar could recreate that with Psionic Weapon or a Deep Crystal Greatsword, Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization. Actually, he could probably get a +2 Deep Crystal Greatsword and still have money left for other things, while having Feats (as you pointed out above) usable for other things. Not to forget a BAB of +6/+1 while your build has a BAB of +4. So, one more attack more than makes up for that extra damage from collision, not to forget those nice feats. I have quite a few comments on this. First, I think you're wrong on the BAB... or could you please explain how a level 5 character can attain a +6 BAB? When talking about level 5, you're also going to have a +4 BAB as you mentioned a dip into psychich warrior. Second, your fighter (let's also assume a 16 str) deal 2d6+2+4 points of damage, with an additional 2d6 points of damage only a few times per day (as he must charge the weapon with his own PPs). Average damage would be 20 points of damage on a hit with a charged weapon, and otherwise "only" 11 points, around 7 points less than the "soulknife" deals with each hit. Third, the "soulknife" is effectively wielding a +4 weapon, which I just feel is very wrong for a level 5 character, sorry. Fourth, when using Expansion, the "soulknife" would up the damage quite a bit. Not only would a greatsword suited for a large creature deal 3d6 points of damage, he'd also gain a +2 size bonus to strength, which would up his str mod to +4, thus increasing the total damage to 3d6+2+5+6 points of damage (3d6+13), averaging 23.5 points of damage per hit. Or what if I just changed my mindblade into a slashing damage reach weapon, like a glaive? I could drop the Resonating Blade feats, instead getting Power Attack and Improved Sunder. With that I could - expanded - sunder your fighter's precious weapon from 20ft away, striking at it with 2d8+2+5+6 = 2d8+13 points of damage per hit. Even with your greatsword having hardness 14 and 40 HPs, it's a battle your fighter can only loose as eventually I will succeed in sundering his weapon, while I'm completely immune to his sunder attempts because I can recreate my mindblade as a swift action. Fifth, my "soulknife" already fullfills all requirements for the slayer PrC, which would only increase his fighting abilities and manifesting power. Your fighter probably lacks the class skills or feats for any suitable PrC. (I'm really not that good at numbercrunching, and I don't want to engange in a serious optimization contest here; others are WAY better at than than I'm ;) ) --- The same as with every other ability which requires you to hold focus vs one which requires you expend it. You can't use an EXPEND focus ability if you want to keep the abilities gained by holding focus. This is actually a game/rules specific question you shouldn't ask us about. If you use one feat you loose the advantage of another, this is correct. It is a choice you make and a mechanic which limits the power of the Mindblade feat. What is wrong with that? It's like saying that when expending your focus to enhance your AC with a Metapsionic feat (lets say Extend Power) and loose the AC bonus from Psionic Dodge. It isn't part of our mechanical problems, it is a problem of choice each character must make. Hmm.... ok. I just find it extremely strange how this interacts with each other. If this constellation was your intend, then ok. --- Ah, a very good point. Perhaps we SHOULD cap the enhancement bonus at +5 and add an [Epic, Mindblade] feat which allows the cap to go above +5? In my opinion a very good idea. :) --- No, there's no problem. The two feats together allow for a limited and more effective use for this purpose only. I guess we've missed each other here. Soulblade Warrior allows to recreate the mindblade as a swift action, and Throw Mindblade allows to interchange melee and ranged attacks, right? Now let's assume the "soulknife" has 4 attacks. The first attack is ranged. The mindblade dissipates, but is recreated as a swift action. The second attack is melee, no problem here. The third attack however, is ranged again. The mindblade dissipates again, but this time it cannot be recreated, because Soulblade Warrior says that recreating the mindblade is a swift action, and one can only perform a single swift action per round, no matter what. So I still have 1 attack left, but no weapon to attack with until next round. Can you see my problem with the wording now? I would just suggest changing "swift action" to "free action". === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-07-06, 10:26 PM	So, like 13 feats for the soulknife feat tree, wf, ws, gwf, gws... and then what? Now I have only 2 feats left to make an effective combatant? Somehow I know that this just won't cut it... Yeah, that is more or less correct. I truthfully believe that you already have an effective combatant by this time. --- First, I think you're wrong on the BAB... or could you please explain how a level 5 character can attain a +6 BAB? When talking about level 5, you're also going to have a +4 BAB as you mentioned a dip into psychich warrior. Good point, my mistake. +5 BAB vs +4 BAB. Second, your fighter (let's also assume a 16 str) deal 2d6+2+4 points of damage, with an additional 2d6 points of damage only a few times per day (as he must charge the weapon with his own PPs). Average damage would be 20 points of damage on a hit with a charged weapon, and otherwise "only" 11 points, around 7 points less than the "soulknife" deals with each hit. As far as I can count, 2d6+4(Str)+2(Enhancement)+2(Weapon Specialization) is more correct, which gives an average of 15, or 22 with the boost. To use above mentioned extra feats and BAB, you can use power attack to get +2 more damage for a -1 loss to attack, which brings us to 17/24. The 17 is 1 less than your example above. Third, the "soulknife" is effectively wielding a +4 weapon, which I just feel is very wrong for a level 5 character, sorry. That is your feeling, not mine. Fourth, when using Expansion, the "soulknife" would up the damage quite a bit. Not only would a greatsword suited for a large creature deal 3d6 points of damage, he'd also gain a +2 size bonus to strength, which would up his str mod to +4, thus increasing the total damage to 3d6+2+5+6 points of damage (3d6+13), averaging 23.5 points of damage per hit. Or what if I just changed my mindblade into a slashing damage reach weapon, like a glaive? I could drop the Resonating Blade feats, instead getting Power Attack and Improved Sunder. With that I could - expanded - sunder your fighter's precious weapon from 20ft away, striking at it with 2d8+2+5+6 = 2d8+13 points of damage per hit. Even with your greatsword having hardness 14 and 40 HPs, it's a battle your fighter can only loose as eventually I will succeed in sundering his weapon, while I'm completely immune to his sunder attempts because I can recreate my mindblade as a swift action. Lets assume that YOUR Mindblader does the above, he gets 1 attack, after which "my" normal fighter does a Charge action and gets within their reach, dealing a whooping 2d6+11 (since you double power attack damage at a charge if I remember correctly). Either way, The above example is just as possible with a "Potion of Enlarge Person" - since we are assuming that both characters have a full-round in which to prepare and use that specific action. Had you used Expansion it would last 2 rounds and cost you all your PPs, a standard action. At the same time I'd charge and probably hit, doing my damage. Next turn your glaive is worthless and your sundering feat means you'll die before you sunder my sword. (Assuming a Con 14 it would give you an average of 34 hp, while those two attacks would do 2d6+11 + 2d6+9 which is a total average of 18 + 16 = 34 hp) Do not forget that you have an effective -2 to AC due to Size and Dex penalties and that your Strength bonus to attack is lost, also due to size. Now, the problem with these "examples" are that they are all conditional. As of yet, I have not seen anything which is especially "powerful". Anything you could do by sacrificing these feats and 8 skill points can be done equally well and still being more flexible by a normal straight fighter, the admittedly "worst" class. Fifth, my "soulknife" already fullfills all requirements for the slayer PrC, which would only increase his fighting abilities and manifesting power. Your fighter probably lacks the class skills or feats for any suitable PrC. (I'm really not that good at numbercrunching, and I don't want to engange in a serious optimization contest here; others are WAY better at than than I'm ;) ) What does this have to do with the Mindblade feat-tree? -- Epic Mindblade [Epic, Mindblade] Benefit: You can now add an enhancement beyond the +5 bonus cap as well as take new Weapon Special Abilities from the Epic List. I guess we've missed each other here. Soulblade Warrior allows to recreate the mindblade as a swift action, and Throw Mindblade allows to interchange melee and ranged attacks, right? No, Throw Mindblade allows you to throw your mindblades, not interchange melee and ranged attacks. The rest of your example fails due to this, either you throw your mindblade or you whack people with it, not both. But this CAN and SHOULD be stated more clearly in my opinion (and if drunkenewok intended it otherwise I am sure we can come to some kind of agreement). Are my answers sufficient?
Ra-Tiel 01-07-06, 11:42 PM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Yeah, that is more or less correct. I truthfully believe that you already have an effective combatant by this time. Please take the following not as a personal attack, but just as a statement. One time you say that the SRD Soulknife is weak, but when a human fighter spends over 2/3 of all his feats to gain just the abilities the SRD Soulknife would grant you say that he's an "effective combatant" despite the fact that the fighter can perform zero special combat actions efficiently? Sorry, but I just don't get it. :confused: --- Good point, my mistake. +5 BAB vs +4 BAB. I think you should specifically state your class(es) and level, because 2 posts ago you were speaking of a fighter with a psywar dip... :confused: --- As far as I can count, 2d6+4(Str)+2(Enhancement)+2(Weapon Specialization) is more correct, which gives an average of 15, or 22 with the boost. To use above mentioned extra feats and BAB, you can use power attack to get +2 more damage for a -1 loss to attack, which brings us to 17/24. The 17 is 1 less than your example above. Ok, fair enough. But you still have the advantage of not having detailed your build's feat layout. :P --- That is your feeling, not mine. Fair enough. --- Lets assume that YOUR Mindblader does the above, he gets 1 attack, after which "my" normal fighter does a Charge action and gets within their reach, dealing a whooping 2d6+11 (since you double power attack damage at a charge if I remember correctly). But first of all, your fighter provokes an attack of opportunity from my "soullknife" because of moving inside my threatened area (20ft. to 15ft.). If I wasn't trying to sunder your weapon, but attacking you directly, your fighter pretty much would be dead right now (3d6+13 on two hits, average 23.5, that means pretty nasty 47 points of damage). And sorry to disappoint you, but without special feats the only benefit from a charge is a +2 bonus on your attack roll. CHARGE Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent. You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above). Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge. Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character. Also, what if I didn't go the Power Attack and Improved Sunder road, but instead chose Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm, with a ranseur as my weapon? --- Either way, The above example is just as possible with a "Potion of Enlarge Person" - since we are assuming that both characters have a full-round in which to prepare and use that specific action. Had you used Expansion it would last 2 rounds and cost you all your PPs, a standard action. At the same time I'd charge and probably hit, doing my damage. Next turn your glaive is worthless and your sundering feat means you'll die before you sunder my sword. (Assuming a Con 14 it would give you an average of 34 hp, while those two attacks would do 2d6+11 + 2d6+9 which is a total average of 18 + 16 = 34 hp) Do not forget that you have an effective -2 to AC due to Size and Dex penalties and that your Strength bonus to attack is lost, also due to size. Wait a moment! You seem to forget that you'd be probably dead by the time you tried to charge because of the AoO you provoked from moving through my threatened space. Also, you assume to have a magical item, while I am not forced to rely upon equipment in that case. I only need a decent piece of armor and basically I'm done gearing up. Also, you also have a -2 penalty to your AC because of your charge. ;) Nonetheless, the "soulknife" is still doing proportionally more damage than another melee focus character at this level can reliably produce (greatsword: 2d6+11+2d8 on first hit, glaive: 1d10+11+2d8 on first hit). It get's only worse when going the battlefield-controll road and taking Combat Expertise and Improved Trip with the mindblade shaped as a reach weapon. Basically I'd get 2 attacks to deal damage per round: 1st attack: attack to trip Bonus attack: from Improved Trip AoO: from you trying to stand up from prone So I could inflict 1d10+11+2d8 + 1d10+11, or an average of 42 points of damage in a single round, while not even using any powers. --- Now, the problem with these "examples" are that they are all conditional. As of yet, I have not seen anything which is especially "powerful". Anything you could do by sacrificing these feats and 8 skill points can be done equally well and still being more flexible by a normal straight fighter, the admittedly "worst" class. So? Can your normal straight fighter buy a +4 weapon at level 5? To put it in simple words: a non-optimized mostly core only fighter is royally screwed. The fighter just needs feats like Combat Brute or Shock Trooper to survive, and to retain its right of existance as a 20level base class. What I also want to ask you: not only seems a character focusing on your feats to perform above average at lower levels, but what at the other end of the scale? How's the race going at level 20, when the straight fighter has at most 7 feats to customize his fighting style? Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Trip and Improved Initiative just to cover the basics. And then are only 3 measily feats left. And that because the fighter has spent most of his feats acquiring the abilities of a class you called "weak"? Sorry, I just don't get it right here... --- What does this have to do with the Mindblade feat-tree? Your fighter must spend all of his feats to just keep up with my "soulknife", and has not even spent a single feat on working towards a prestige class, while my build is as it might seem stronger and more flexible than your fighter and has already fullfilled the requirements for a very good PrC. --- Epic Mindblade [Epic, Mindblade] Benefit: You can now add an enhancement beyond the +5 bonus cap as well as take new Weapon Special Abilities from the Epic List. I think that's a bit too easy. And that last part of the sentence I just don't really like. The whole epic weapon enhancement list for a single feat? :noway: --- No, Throw Mindblade allows you to throw your mindblades, not interchange melee and ranged attacks. The rest of your example fails due to this, either you throw your mindblade or you whack people with it, not both. But this CAN and SHOULD be stated more clearly in my opinion (and if drunkenewok intended it otherwise I am sure we can come to some kind of agreement). WTF? I was referring to that part: Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. Emphasis in red. :confused: Perhaps you should really work over this wording an additional time? === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-08-06, 10:24 AM	Ok, seriously. MY personal reason for starting this project is totally irrelevant. I was looking for constructive feedback on this, not asking for someone to repeatedly criticise MY choice. If you don't like it, don't read it! It almost seems like you've taken offense at this and can't let it go. Regarding a fighter spending all his feats, allow me to ONCE MORE state: 1. A fighter gets a FULL BAB vs the MEDIUM BAB of a normal Soulknife 2. Our feats give a Mindblader Fighter MORE OPTIONS. Because of these, now stated twice, reasons I believe that they are more than a match yes. We've also expanded the list of available Special Abilities which are available, making those options more viable. Please refer to the above statements every time you use "I don't get it..." as a reference for why I now find the "same abilities I previously said were weak" (which I didn't, I said the CLASS felt weak) better. -- I'll be leaving the "optimize this vs optimize that" because I have no interest in spending my time writing down examples of how a normal fighter fares in some 100 different possibilities. I am sure you can find an Optimizer somewhere else who finds this interesting or enjoyable. I find it frustrating and meaningless. -- On "Epic Mindblade" - No, you get to CHOOSE new abilities from that list to add to your own list, as we discussed earlier in this thread. We've gone with the normal Soulknife Special Abilities list, added a few abilities and then we let the character "buy" in other options. I am sure you can read about it earlier. The same process would be applied here. - What in it do you find "easy"? You have to be atleast ECL21 to take it and spend one of your EPIC feats, so what's easy with that? And that is just to acquire the possibility to get something others can BUY for money or exchange as they like. -- Finally, regarding "Throw Mindblade" you are quite correct there. I was tired when I wrote the reply and remembered incorrectly. I now quite agree that it should be a "free action"! -- Addendum: I do feel that we've gotten off on the wrong foot here, mainly by my personal statement of finding the Soulknife "weak". Allow me to correct one little thing, I believe that the class should've been Full BAB and the main "fighter" of the Psionic Classes. When I went looking for a solution to this problem, I encountered a solution I found much more to my liking - namely the Soulknife Feat-Tree which I linked to in the beginning of this thread. This gave me my solution (ie a Full BAB Soulknife via the Fighter), but opened up alot of even more interesting possibilities - which is why I chose this path. To expand, I need to add that for my games I HAVE changed the Cleric, Paladin, Rogue and Bard to use "internal feats" for their progression allowing a much more customizable base than before, which is why I instantly liked THIS solution. Now, I am sure you did have a legimate point with all your "customizing/optimizing" builds and I'd like to say this: Give me your "best shot" and total damage or worst twist and if we cannot find something equally good or twisted we'll look over how it works, ok?
Ra-Tiel 01-08-06, 12:23 PM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Addendum: I do feel that we've gotten off on the wrong foot here, mainly by my personal statement of finding the Soulknife "weak". No worries. A little passion of mine would be to one time play a soulknife/psywar gestalt character... :drool: But anyways, the soulknife suffers a bit, but is far from "weak", as I find. AFAIK nobody on the CO boards has so far broken the soulknife, and shouldn't that be a good sign? IIRC, the first "king of smack" builds were based on the psywar, and "pun-pun" was in its first incarnation, I believe, a level 13 egoist. But I have yet to see such a munched out build based on the soulknife. --- Allow me to correct one little thing, I believe that the class should've been Full BAB and the main "fighter" of the Psionic Classes. When I went looking for a solution to this problem, I encountered a solution I found much more to my liking - namely the Soulknife Feat-Tree which I linked to in the beginning of this thread. You are not alone with this point of view. There are so many "Soulknife Fix"-es around these boards, it gets boring already. You don't need to tell me that with full BAB... if were in charge that would be the first errate I'd bring out for the soulknife, but apparently BRC has decided that medium BAB was sufficient for the class. --- This gave me my solution (ie a Full BAB Soulknife via the Fighter), but opened up alot of even more interesting possibilities - which is why I chose this path. But also opened up a lot room for discussion and discrepancy. ;) --- To expand, I need to add that for my games I HAVE changed the Cleric, Paladin, Rogue and Bard to use "internal feats" for their progression allowing a much more customizable base than before, which is why I instantly liked THIS solution. You see, this would have been really helpful, at least for me. Then it would have been much more obvious for what you were aiming in the long run. --- Ok, seriously. MY personal reason for starting this project is totally irrelevant. I was looking for constructive feedback on this, not asking for someone to repeatedly criticise MY choice. If you don't like it, don't read it! It almost seems like you've taken offense at this and can't let it go. And who's reacting snippy, now? Hmmm? :thinks: :P :shifty: --- Regarding a fighter spending all his feats, allow me to ONCE MORE state: 1. A fighter gets a FULL BAB vs the MEDIUM BAB of a normal Soulknife 2. Our feats give a Mindblader Fighter MORE OPTIONS. And I still think that it's subpar to spend all feats to acquire those abilities and completely neglect the other combat options melee characters depend upon. :P Especially for feats from CWar and CAdv is with your variant almost no slot free, any longer. --- Because of these, now stated twice, reasons I believe that they are more than a match yes. We've also expanded the list of available Special Abilities which are available, making those options more viable. Please refer to the above statements every time you use "I don't get it..." as a reference for why I now find the "same abilities I previously said were weak" (which I didn't, I said the CLASS felt weak) better. I think the available options for weapon special abilities is also a HUGE balancing factor. Therefore I'm utterly at odds with BlaineTog's Soulknife Fix, which basically adds all enhancements from the DMG, XPHb and quite a few other sources. I just cannot see a soulknife running around with a vorpal brilliant energy mindblade, sorry. :gah: :shocked: :noway: I'm very glad that you decided upon keeping the list from the XPHb for your variant. :thumbsup: -- I'll be leaving the "optimize this vs optimize that" because I have no interest in spending my time writing down examples of how a normal fighter fares in some 100 different possibilities. I am sure you can find an Optimizer somewhere else who finds this interesting or enjoyable. I find it frustrating and meaningless. As said, I'm not very good at optimizing. But IIRC, you - or better, drunkenewok - were asking for comments on [...] any balance/game-play issues regarding either that might concern you [...] and so here I am. :) I know that it's very difficult to balance abilities, especially feats, to be balanced at both low-level and high-level play. Another issue I might again bring up (I know you said that you didn't feel that it was an issue), but the level 5 character running around with a +4 weapon - or the level 1 character running around with a +2 weapon - simply keeps bugging me, sorry. I think that no matter how much slots you need to spend, feats should never be able to break the "Wealth by Level" guidelines in the DMG (at least not without serious drawbacks; compare vow of poverty) You're effectively giving this one player a several thousand gp advantage over the other players, and I just think that this is not fair. Just my opinion on this topic. If it works for your campaign, go for it! :cheer: --- On "Epic Mindblade" - No, you get to CHOOSE new abilities from that list to add to your own list, as we discussed earlier in this thread. We've gone with the normal Soulknife Special Abilities list, added a few abilities and then we let the character "buy" in other options. I am sure you can read about it earlier. The same process would be applied here. Oh, as it seems I've missed something. :embarrass From the wording of your suggestion it sounded as if you'd instantly add all epic weapon special abilities to the list of available enhancements for your mindblade. :shocked: --- - What in it do you find "easy"? You have to be atleast ECL21 to take it and spend one of your EPIC feats, so what's easy with that? And that is just to acquire the possibility to get something others can BUY for money or exchange as they like. Perhaps add in something else. Perhaps a minimum Concentration rank of 24 or something like that. Or a minimum number of pre-epci "I've-bought-a-weapon-special-ability" feats. Something like that. Just a suggestion. --- Finally, regarding "Throw Mindblade" you are quite correct there. I was tired when I wrote the reply and remembered incorrectly. I now quite agree that it should be a "free action"! Ok, sorry for not being clear enough with my example. I should have mentioned exactly to which phrase I was reffering. Sorry for the confusion. But good that I finally got my point across. :D === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Seerow 01-09-06, 02:13 PM	Human Psywar5/Fighter4/Monk2/Feat Rogue2 has the following feats: 1(Human) 1(Normal) 1(Psywar) 2(Psywar) 3(Normal) 5(Psywar) 6(Normal) 6(Fighter) 7(Fighter) 9(Normal) 9(Fighter) 10(Monk) 11(Monk) 12(Feat Rogue) 12(Normal) 13(Feat Rogue) Yep, 16 feats by level 13. You can now continue in Fighter or Feat Rogue as pleases you (for special abilities or higher BAB, but you're already assured a +16 BAB from your fighter levels), or if you want more attacks, drop the Feat Rogue and go Monk11 at the end for Greater Flurry. Either way, you have 13 feats by 11 or 16 by 13. You get another bonus feat from Monk if you continue there, so you end with 6 attacks a round and 17 Feats, meaning you have 4 feats total, assuming you took the entire tree. One might chose to only take 10, so you get your max pre-epic bonus, and move on to other things, leaving you with 7 feats, just one short of any other human character without bonus feats. Either way, a well made character using these feats WILL end up more powerful than a traditional Soulknife, with a fair ammount of versatility. Will he have 18 feats free like the fighter he is? No. But he will have a powerful weapon that he gets for free to compensate for that. Note: Taking the Feat Rogue will cause Exp penalties, so having Favored Class Monk and continuing in that may be the best option if such things are a concern to you. Really, Ra-Tiel, you seem contradictory to me. You go from saying that it's overpowered by giving the item for free, to saying it's underpowered by saying you lack versatility. Pick one side or the other. Of course, I've shown now that with proper forsight, you could have a character with just as much versatility as the original Soulknife, and then some. And that was using all base classes, and only one thing(optional) non-core. Im sure some prestige classes could further amplify that use. I assume this means you'll resume arguing that a 5th level character waving around a +4 equivalent sword is broken. But as the damage has already been shown to be comparable to a normal fighter with other feats taken, I don't really see the problem with it.
angellis_ater 01-09-06, 03:49 PM	You see, this would have been really helpful, at least for me. Then it would have been much more obvious for what you were aiming in the long run. You are quite correct, I should've stated my origins first so that you would have a better understanding of my background. And who's reacting snippy, now? Hmmm? :thinks: :P :shifty: I might have been slightly overpassionate in the beginning, my excuses! :-) And I still think that it's subpar to spend all feats to acquire those abilities and completely neglect the other combat options melee characters depend upon. :P Especially for feats from CWar and CAdv is with your variant almost no slot free, any longer. Ah, I think I see the "descripancy" here. I use CORE + XPH in general with no splatbooks attached. I do make allowances for some things from splatbooks if they make thematic sense (like my Bard player having Lingering Music and Bardic Music) but in general I disregard everything besides the SRD CORE (since I do use some variant rules from there). I'm very glad that you decided upon keeping the list from the XPHb for your variant. Well, we did expand slightly on it, amongst other things adding the Brilliant Energy ability, but otherwise we use it for balance just as it was meant! I know that it's very difficult to balance abilities, especially feats, to be balanced at both low-level and high-level play. You don't say! This is also why I feel giving up those all-important feats in the beginning is a higher price than mere money, and also more static than currency. Another issue I might again bring up (I know you said that you didn't feel that it was an issue), but the level 5 character running around with a +4 weapon - or the level 1 character running around with a +2 weapon - simply keeps bugging me, sorry. I think that no matter how much slots you need to spend, feats should never be able to break the "Wealth by Level" guidelines in the DMG (at least not without serious drawbacks; compare vow of poverty) Ouch, here you go using the "worst" feat ever as an example of a good way to break the Wealth by Level guidelines? No, to me it's not an issue since the feats at the beginning are worth alot (atleast in my eyes), especially considering how wealth DOES allow for variations, while the Feats do not. If you change your mind about that +2 Longbow and want a +2 Fullplate (just an example) you can change, with feats, you can't. You're effectively giving this one player a several thousand gp advantage over the other players, and I just think that this is not fair. Just my opinion on this topic. If it works for your campaign, go for it! Depends on how you see it, the Bard is effectively giving out a group-wide +2 enhancement at level 2 to the entire group with a +1 inspire courage and "Inspirational Boost" spell. So, considering what I have seen him do with his bardic abilities alone I do not feel that a single +2 blade is overpowering. Oh, as it seems I've missed something. From the wording of your suggestion it sounded as if you'd instantly add all epic weapon special abilities to the list of available enhancements for your mindblade. No, you get to add them just like normal special abilities by "buying" them, which should take some time unless the player has been saving for a while. Perhaps add in something else. Perhaps a minimum Concentration rank of 24 or something like that. Or a minimum number of pre-epci "I've-bought-a-weapon-special-ability" feats. Something like that. Just a suggestion. I think we'll go with Concentration 24 ranks (since we use that as a constrictor/level denominator otherwise) and Form Mindblade as prerequisites, we don't need more really.
Ra-Tiel 01-10-06, 09:47 AM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Ah, I think I see the "descripancy" here. I use CORE + XPH in general with no splatbooks attached. I do make allowances for some things from splatbooks if they make thematic sense (like my Bard player having Lingering Music and Bardic Music) but in general I disregard everything besides the SRD CORE (since I do use some variant rules from there). Ok, then that's a pretty big factor. When your fighters from the start don't have many feat choices outside the core3, then I can guess it's ok. But in a game that allowed basically all books (at most the "Races of..." and "Complete..." series), I can't see many chances for your feats. --- Well, we did expand slightly on it, amongst other things adding the Brilliant Energy ability, but otherwise we use it for balance just as it was meant! [...] Of course that's ok, but adding all elemental enhancements, vorpal, brilliant energy, the alignment specific abilities, bane, spell storing,... to the list is way too much in my opinion. --- Ouch, here you go using the "worst" feat ever as an example of a good way to break the Wealth by Level guidelines? No, to me it's not an issue since the feats at the beginning are worth alot (atleast in my eyes), especially considering how wealth DOES allow for variations, while the Feats do not. If you change your mind about that +2 Longbow and want a +2 Fullplate (just an example) you can change, with feats, you can't. Actually I was refering to the disadvantages of the feat. As has been proven, the ban on magical items is much more severe than what could be granted by the feat, because many abilities and effects from magic items are not compensated for by it. Also, you pretty much force the other characters in the party to split their monetary and other resources to help you out. Eg you cannot own a single potion of lesser restoration. Because you cannot own any money, either, you force the other characters to spend their own money to buy a potion for you. Also, you are completely at the mercy of the other characters, which could lead to some pretty hard ingame situations, where you are put to decide to not :censored: off your party members or stick to your character. With all that, the benefits of the feat are ok, in my opinion. --- Depends on how you see it, the Bard is effectively giving out a group-wide +2 enhancement at level 2 to the entire group with a +1 inspire courage and "Inspirational Boost" spell. So, considering what I have seen him do with his bardic abilities alone I do not feel that a single +2 blade is overpowering. Well, the bard can do that at most 2 times per day, as a level 2 bard has (without any additional feats) 2 uses of bardic music per day. Additionally, he's spending a spell that he could use to cast a cure spell to heal a companion, or a summon spell to distract the enemy and provide a "meat shield" to distract the enemy, or a sleep spell to put an aggressive guard to sleep. Sorry to nitpick, but it's a +4 weapon, not a +2 weapon. A +2 collision scythe, or a +2 keen lucky scimitar, or a +2 wounding greatsword is simply much more than a level 5 character should ever posses. --- No, you get to add them just like normal special abilities by "buying" them, which should take some time unless the player has been saving for a while. Ok, got it. :) --- I think we'll go with Concentration 24 ranks (since we use that as a constrictor/level denominator otherwise) and Form Mindblade as prerequisites, we don't need more really. Ok, sounds good. :) === @Seerow: [...] Really, Ra-Tiel, you seem contradictory to me. You go from saying that it's overpowered by giving the item for free, to saying it's underpowered by saying you lack versatility. Pick one side or the other. [...] Well, I could have structured my line of reasoning more, with that you're right. But I'm actually not saying what you quote me to say. I'm saying that it's unbalancing to give a that powerful indestructable item to low-level characters. I'm saying that it's too demanding to spend all of your class features to gain class features for which you then have no feats left to augment them. Let's take a straight level 20 human fighter. That's 19 feats by level 20. Ok, the 13 feats I've mentioned above to gain the Soulknife class traits {6 left}. Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (being generous and allowing "mindblade", which in effect is all weapons the character is proficient with), Combat Expertise, Power Attack, two special abilities added. That's all. And what can this character do now? Is he really good at dealing damage? At disarming? Tripping? Blocking and playing "meat shield"? Protecting others? Anti-caster duty? Battlefield control? Mounted combat? Ranged combat? A SRD Soulknife has still at least 7 feats to play with and can specialize in either, in addition to having more skill points and a free Speed of Thought, while the "fighter soulknife" has given up all his flexibility just to acquire the traits the SRD class gains for free. But I don't want to give any additional griefs. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-10-06, 02:34 PM	DrunkenEwok: How do you feel about changing "Soulblade Warrior" to allow the manifestation of the mindblade to be a free action instead of a swift? Jives better with Throw Mindblade as Ra-Tiel pointed out. Does restricting the enhancement bonus to +6 pre-Epic sound ok with you and does this Epic feat sound ok to everyone? Epic Mindblade [Epic, Mindblade] Prerequisites: Concentration 24 ranks, Form Mindblade Benefit: Your enhancement bonus can go above +5 and you can buy additional special abilities from the Epic Weapon abilities at the same cost as normal (for each +1 bonus you need 1 Mindblade Feat) -- Does this additional text sound alright to people with regards to the Special Abilities and any additional abilities? "In addition to those defined by the Mindblade Special Abilities table, you can also buy new abilities from the normal 'magic weapons special abilities' list. For each +1 bonus all of your extra abilities cost, you need 1 [Mindblade] feat. For example: You want the Flaming Burst special ability and the Shock special ability, totaling a +3 bonus. To be able to add these to your list, you need atleast 3 [Mindblade] feats. These abilities, once chosen, cannot in any way be changed once they have been "locked" to your Mindblade. You may choose to add a new special ability every time you gain a level (but only if you have enough [Mindblade] feats)."
Ra-Tiel 01-11-06, 10:46 AM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Epic Mindblade [Epic, Mindblade] Prerequisites: Concentration 24 ranks, Form Mindblade Benefit: Your enhancement bonus can go above +5 and you can buy additional special abilities from the Epic Weapon abilities at the same cost as normal (for each +1 bonus you need 1 Mindblade Feat) :thumbsup: :D But see my comment below. --- Does this additional text sound alright to people with regards to the Special Abilities and any additional abilities? "In addition to those defined by the Mindblade Special Abilities table, you can also buy new abilities from the normal 'magic weapons special abilities' list. For each +1 bonus all of your extra abilities cost, you need 1 [Mindblade] feat. For example: You want the Flaming Burst special ability and the Shock special ability, totaling a +3 bonus. To be able to add these to your list, you need atleast 3 [Mindblade] feats. These abilities, once chosen, cannot in any way be changed once they have been "locked" to your Mindblade. You may choose to add a new special ability every time you gain a level (but only if you have enough [Mindblade] feats)." Hmm... good idea. Perhaps you should change it to "For each +1 bonus all of your extra abilities cost, you need 2 [Mindblade] feats.", because a "basic soulknife" (all the abilities of the SRD class) would have 11 [mindblade] feats, and could quite a bunch of abilities, like Bane Spell/power storing Anarchic/Axiomatic/Holy/Unholy Speed and/or Brilliant Energy to his mindblade. Also, you should remove dancing from the available abilities, or you could have soulknives running around, releasing at least two dancing weapons per round. :shocked: And I guess you wouldn't like that. ... Or have I again missed something? :confused: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-11-06, 07:23 PM	The problem there is that you'll never get an Epic ability (since it'd cost you 12 feats) but perhaps we could restrict it somewhat in another way? One restriction is that each "Bane" is a seperate +1 ability, so right there you've got a good restrictor. A second restrictor is that you can only get the "aligned" abilities that match your own alignment and you cannot have two opposites (holy-unholy, axiomatic-anarchic). Some abilities will be removed totally (like spellstoring, dancing, distance, seeking, ghost touch, returning, throwing and vicious from the Magic Items list and power-storing, dislocator, greater dislocator, teleporting, manifester, psi-bane and psychic) which leaves a pretty small list. Brilliant Energy will already be on the "normal" list, you don't have to buy it. At 11 [Mindblade] feats we are still talking about a maximum of +6 worth of abilities so it would mean, at best, a Flaming XXX-Bane Mindblade of Brilliant Energy - which doesn't feel very overpowering. Now, I looked up a +11 total enhancement and while expensive it cashes in at 770'000 gp, not 2,5 million. 2,5 million refers to JUST the Enhancement bonus of +11, atleast thats how I read it. This makes me want to keep the +6 enhancement bonus vs special abilities.
Ra-Tiel 01-12-06, 12:17 AM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: The problem there is that you'll never get an Epic ability (since it'd cost you 12 feats) but perhaps we could restrict it somewhat in another way? Hmm... you're right, I guess. But think of it this way: the soulknife fighter doesn't buy any additional abilities immediately, but instead "saves" his slots, waiting until level 21, then taking Epic Mindblade, and selecting sonic blast as a special ability, and instantly running around with a +6 sonic blast scyth, dealing 2d4+6+[1.5*str mod] points of damage + 3d6 points of sonic damage, or on a critical hit {2d4+6+[1.5*str mod]}*4 points of damage + 12d6 points of sonic damage. Perhaps you could drop the automatic buying of epic abilities, but instead rely on feats for this? Maybe you could perhaps make something like Epic Mindblade Ability Prerequisites: Concentration 30 ranks, Form Mindblade, Epic Mindblade, Weapon Focus (Mindblade) Benefit: You can now select a single special ability from the list "epic weapon enhancements". You add this ability to your list of "locked" abilities you can apply to your mindblade. To be able to create a mindblade with an epic weapon enhancement, you must be allowed to create a mindblade with a sufficiently high special ability allowance. The rules for changing special abilities on your mindblade remain unchanged. Normal:You are limited to non-epic weapon enhancements when selecting weapon special abilities you can shape into your mindblade. Special: This feat allows you to select an epic weapon enhancement with a bonus equivalence of +6. For each point of bonus above 6, you must pay 1000 experience points; eg for a "+8" special ability you must take the feat for that enhancement and pay 2000 experience points. This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different epic weapon enhancement. I know, this would lead at some point to a soulknife "knowing" almost all pre-epic weapon abilities, but he'd still be limited in how much he can apply at the same time and your other restrictions. --- One restriction is that each "Bane" is a seperate +1 ability, so right there you've got a good restrictor. Of course you're right, but this is highly campaign-specific. At the moment your soulknife player finds out that demons are the big bad prevalent main nasties, you can bet he or she will get Bane (evil outsider) and Bane (chaotic outsider) asap, as they are only "+1" bonuses and can be bought pretty cheaply - at least that's what I'd do. Also, some things would be a nobrainer, like selecting bane (humanoids: humans), when the antagonists are mainly classed humans, as a mindblade cannot be used against you. A normal weapon can be disarmed and used to attack you, but a mindblade cannot. --- A second restrictor is that you can only get the "aligned" abilities that match your own alignment and you cannot have two opposites (holy-unholy, axiomatic-anarchic). Also, that's a logical and good restriction, but my comment from above about bane applies here, to. In a demon focused campaign a +4 holy bane(evil outsider) bane(chaotic outsider) weapon could be very well dominating combat. The increased effective enhancement bonus from bane is no the issue, but dealing +6d6 irresistable damage with every hit is really quite a lot, effectively a level 11 rogue's sneak attack damage with each hit. As said, it could become an issue if you want to focus your campaign around a specific type of opposition, but in a "normal" campaign there would be enough diversity among the enemies that a set like that would only come in play a few times, which is fine by me. --- Some abilities will be removed totally (like spellstoring, dancing, distance, seeking, ghost touch, returning, throwing and vicious from the Magic Items list and power-storing, dislocator, greater dislocator, teleporting, manifester, psi-bane and psychic) which leaves a pretty small list. Ok, didn't know this. Then I can guess it's all right, as you basically are left with the abilities Bane Defending Flaming Frost Shock Keen Ki focus Merciful Mighty cleaving Thundering Anarchic Axiomatic Disruption Flaming burst Icy burst Holy Shocking burst Unholy Wounding Speed Brilliant Energy Vorpal --- Psychokinetic Dissipater Lucky Sundering Collision Mindcrusher Psychokinetic burst Suppression Bodyfeeder Mindfeeder Soulfeeder Coup de grace which seems to be ok. --- Brilliant Energy will already be on the "normal" list, you don't have to buy it. Ok, got it. :) --- At 11 [Mindblade] feats we are still talking about a maximum of +6 worth of abilities so it would mean, at best, a Flaming XXX-Bane Mindblade of Brilliant Energy - which doesn't feel very overpowering. Ok and what about a keen soulbreaker psychokinetic burst scimitar? Or a shocking burst flaming burst icy burst scyth with Improved Critical: Scyth? There a quite some combinations that could turn out to be unbalancing. --- Now, I looked up a +11 total enhancement and while expensive it cashes in at 770'000 gp, not 2,5 million. 2,5 million refers to JUST the Enhancement bonus of +11, atleast thats how I read it. This makes me want to keep the +6 enhancement bonus vs special abilities. I think you're mistaken here. EPIC WEAPON BASE PRICE To find the base price of an epic magic weapon, roll on Table: Weapons. Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10. Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price. Emphasis in red. From my reading that means that a +6 keen longsword is priced as an +7 epic weapon, just as a +1 fiery blast longsword is priced as a +7 epic weapon, because in one case the enhancement bonus is greater than "+5" and in the other case the bonus ability equivalence is greater than "+5". If I'm wrong, please correct me. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
MaverickWolf 01-12-06, 09:54 AM	I think you're mistaken here. Emphasis in red. From my reading that means that a +6 keen longsword is priced as an +7 epic weapon, just as a +1 fiery blast longsword is priced as a +7 epic weapon, because in one case the enhancement bonus is greater than "+5" and in the other case the bonus ability equivalence is greater than "+5". If I'm wrong, please correct me. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel. No, you're technically correct, as far as I can tell. However, like much of the sloppily written, overly complicated, and entirely pointless rules in the Epic Level Handbook, there's numerous ways to interpret that passage, so I can see where he's getting his ideas too. Frankly, I think the sudden jump like that is stupid and plan on pretty well ignoring epic rules entirely if we get to levels that high in any campaign I DM. It's really fairly simple to continue on with most of the base progressionsw from normal levels of play.
angellis_ater 01-12-06, 01:09 PM	Ok - I had a long and nice reply written up when these boards (as usual it seems) crashed, weren't available or something like that. Now I'm ****** and I'll write a short reply. I have a solution to most of our problems. We restrict the number of extra special abilities a Mindblader can get by either his Wisdom bonus or his Intelligence bonus. So if he wants Flaming, he needs atleast one [Mindblade] feat and a Int/Wis bonus of atleast +1. Since we do not allow them to change these the "Holy Bane x2" guy who whoops Demon-ass is totally stunted by a chaotic evil demon-worshipping cultist. Alot of our problems are solved by this (atleast as insofar as I see it). You were right about the Epic costs, I misinterpreted that passage. The list of available abilities is also alot shorter since many of those abilities are already on the Soulknife list.
Ra-Tiel 01-12-06, 01:41 PM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Ok - I had a long and nice reply written up when these boards (as usual it seems) crashed, weren't available or something like that. Now I'm ****** and I'll write a short reply. I know, I know... :( But you can always hit "Back" in your browser and "ctrl-a, ctrl-c" save your post in a text file and post it later when the boards are back online. ;) --- I have a solution to most of our problems. We restrict the number of extra special abilities a Mindblader can get by either his Wisdom bonus or his Intelligence bonus. So if he wants Flaming, he needs atleast one [Mindblade] feat and a Int/Wis bonus of atleast +1. Since we do not allow them to change these the "Holy Bane x2" guy who whoops Demon-ass is totally stunted by a chaotic evil demon-worshipping cultist. Alot of our problems are solved by this (atleast as insofar as I see it). Sounds ok. But the "holy" enhancement would still work against the evil cultist. :P ;) --- You were right about the Epic costs, I misinterpreted that passage. No problem. I've just discovered another problem: a soulknife could go from a 242k gp weapon to a 2.42mio gp weapon and back each day, just depending on what special weapon ability he locks into his mindblade. If he goes with something like "keen", "bane", "holy",... up to a total of +6 he's in the non-epic range. The moment he selects a an ability like "fiery blast" or something like that, he'd be in the epic-range and the value of his weapon would be multiplied by a factor of 10. That's sad, and makes my inner balance-monkey cry, but I don't think there's a away to prevent this. :weep: --- The list of available abilities is also alot shorter since many of those abilities are already on the Soulknife list. I know, but I just wrote down every possible ability from the SRD magic and psionic weapon enhancement lists. At least... I hope that I did... :thinks: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-12-06, 03:44 PM	I think we've pretty much taken all angles and covered them now then, eh? I am hoping DrunkenEwok will drop in and help us out with a nice re-write of the Feat tree compilation, but if he hasn't dropped by by tomorrow I'll do it and add in the "Epic Mindblade" feat, the modified Soulknife list of Special Abilities and the Extra Abilities together with the rules for adding abilities. We also need to cap the Enhancement bonus at +5 and make a note that no special ability may cost more than +5. Anyone else have any input? Once this is finished we can get on with the "Mindstorm" PrC!
drunkenewok 01-13-06, 08:59 PM	Sorry about the long hiatus - was a 90+ hour week at work... so without further ado: But think of it this way: the soulknife fighter doesn't buy any additional abilities immediately, but instead "saves" his slots, waiting until level 21, then taking Epic Mindblade, and selecting sonic blast as a special ability, and instantly running around with a +6 sonic blast scyth, dealing 2d4+6+[1.5*str mod] points of damage + 3d6 points of sonic damage, or on a critical hit {2d4+6+[1.5*str mod]}*4 points of damage + 12d6 points of sonic damage.Okay, so assuming our fighter has a Strength of 26 (reasonable but not excessive, imho), then he's doing an average of 33.5 damage on a regular hit, and 111 damage on a critical. Figuring that he's probably only going to crit on a 20 (weapon is not keen, and assuming he doesn't have ImpCrit), that's an actual average damage/hit of 44.6 (or an average expected damage/hit of 19.5). Isn't that worth the expenditure of 12 feats? It might sound like a lot of damage in theory, but it's hardly the stuff of legend. (Or rather, it is the stuff of legend, which is exactly what Epic characters are supposed to be doing... without being egregiously broken) Ok and what about a keen soulbreaker psychokinetic burst scimitar? Or a shocking burst flaming burst icy burst scyth with Improved Critical: Scyth? There a quite some combinations that could turn out to be unbalancing.Assuming our hypothetical character has a 26 Str, a keen soulbreaker psychokinetic burst scimitar +5 has a avg dmg/hit of 25, an average expected damage of 12.41 with an average 14.5% chance of forcing a DC18 Fort save to avoid a negative level. A shocking/flaming/icy burst scythe +5 coupled with ImpCrit:Scythe yields an average damage/hit of 44.1 and an expected average damage of 22. Again, it doesn't seem all that out of whack to me. Also, that's a logical and good restriction, but my comment from above about bane applies here, to. In a demon focused campaign a +4 holy bane(evil outsider) bane(chaotic outsider) weapon could be very well dominating combat. The increased effective enhancement bonus from bane is no the issue, but dealing +6d6 irresistable damage with every hit is really quite a lot, effectively a level 11 rogue's sneak attack damage with each hit.I'll agree that under the right circumstances this could be pretty impressive. But consider that the mindblader who has these abilities spent at least 8 feats and is at least L13. Or a non-mindblader character could pick up an identical item with no feat cost for only 128k gp (or 64k+1024xp+one feat). There's also the fact that if the character doesn't run up against CE outsiders, he's wasted a good deal of his potential. Again, it's a nice ability, but I hardly think it's "broken". As for the usage of the Epic Weapon cost table, I'm with MaverickWolf that it's probably the table that's at fault, rather than our feat system. Consider that the only advantage a +6 weapon provides compared to a +5 weapon is an additional 5% chance to hit and the ability to bypass Epic DR. The former is already accounted for by simply extending the non-epic table (for which a +6/+5 weapon should cost 242,000gp), and while the latter is definitely worth something, I don't think it should be worth a factor of 10 or more. I'll readily admit I don't fully comprehend how the Epic Weapon cost table is supposed to work (since I only have access to the SRD version atm, and text is pretty inscrutable), but from what I've gathered, a +6/+5 weapon could cost anywhere from 720k to 2420k. Also, you should remove dancing from the available abilities, or you could have soulknives running around, releasing at least two dancing weapons per round.The dancing special ability would be pretty unimpressive with a mindblade, given that a mindblade dissipates the moment you release it. I could see adding a feat that lets you add the dancing special ability to your mindblade, perhaps in the same manner as summoning a pair of mindblades or using Mental Armory? Maybe have Mental Armory as a prereq, let you summon the dancing blade and release it, taking the enhancement bonus penalty if you release it and summon another mindblade? I just cannot see a soulknife running around with a vorpal brilliant energy mindblade, sorry.Consider that under our system this would require a minimum of 17 mindblade feats, spending nearly 1/3 of your special ability choices on vorpal, and require 34 ranks in Concentration (and thus CharLvl 31). At that point, given the costs, I really don't see it as that unbalanced. Sorry to nitpick, but it's a +4 weapon, not a +2 weapon. A +2 collision scythe, or a +2 keen lucky scimitar, or a +2 wounding greatsword is simply much more than a level 5 character should ever posses.Assuming our character has 16 Str: collision scythe +2 - Dmg/Hit: 21.45, average expected damage: 9.49 keen lucky scimitar +2 - Dmg/Hit: 9.4, average expected damage: 5.5 wounding greatsword +2 - Dmg/Hit: 20.35, average expected damage: 10.17 (includes the hp that a CR 5 creature would lose due to Con loss) shock greatsword +1 + Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization - Dmg/Hit: 19.45, average expected damage: 9.72It doesn't look like the mindblader has a serious material advantage over a "normal" fighter. The fighter has two extra feats, while the mindblader has some extra cash, and the mindblader is doing at most 1hp/round average more than the fighter. (And that assumes the mindblader is attacking creatures vulnerable to Con loss) But in a game that allowed basically all books (at most the "Races of..." and "Complete..." series), I can't see many chances for your feats.I disagree with your reasoning. First, you've assumed that any mindblader would replicate the special abilities of the existing Soulknife class. While you are correct that doing so would require 12/13 feats out of the Fighter's 19 to do so, it's not exactly the optimal way to expend your resources, since spending 5 feats on Psychic Strike probably isn't worth it, and there are better feats in the tree. Not to mention that a L20 Fighter who spends 13 feats replicating the existing Soulknife has an extra +5 BAB, access to WS, GWF, GWS, and still has 6 feats to spend. You'll probably want to spend at least 9-10 feats on the tree pre-epic for the enhancement bonuses, but that still leaves more than half your feats to spend on a combat specialty. Add in the fact that a fighter has a better BAB, and that the 9-10 mindblade feats offer a number of meaningful specializations on their own, it's not nearly as subpar as you make it sound. I'm also confused at the twin points you seem to be making. On one hand, you argue that the feat-tree is a waste because you cannot adequately replicate the existing Soulknife class making the feats a sub-par or even worthless choice. On the other hand you argue that the enhancement bonuses provided by the feats are totally overpowering and beyond what any character of comparable level should be able to attain. I'm curious to know how the feats can be both sub-par and overpowering at the same time, or which one of the two you actually consider to be the case. I see the mindblade feat tree as trading feats and flexibility in combat options in exchange for greater flexibility in weapon choice and weapon abilities (and saved gp). Your arguments seem to reinforce that perspective, since a character who invests heavily in the tree will indeed have fewer combat options, but will have an impressive weapon that is difficult/impossible to take away (via theft, sunder, disarm, etc). To me, such a trade-off is generally conceived to be a balancing factor (unless the advantage gained is significantly better or worse than the disadvantage, which I don't believe is the case here). Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action.I purposely intended for the dichotomy between Soulblade Warrior and Throw Mindblade. If you have both feats and you throw a mindblade, you can rematerialize a replacement as a free action. However, if you have lost your blade for some other reason (it was sundered or disarmed, you dismissed it, you set up a dancing blade, etc) it still requires a swift action to rematerialize. I don't like the idea of reducing the Soulblade Warrior benefit to a free action, because that would make Sunder/Disarms even less of a hindrance, and would open up a bunch of options for the gish-type builds who normally need their swift actions for other purposes. There really isn't a contradiction, since even though Soulblade Warrior only allows rematerializing as a swift action, it is the combination of feats that lets you rematerialize more quickly, and only in certain circumstances. It might be helpful to clarify in the Special block that you can indeed rematerialize your mindblade after a throw as a free action, but I believe it is implied in the existing text. (Which is why I didn't include the clarification) As for any balance concerns, I honestly don't see a major benefit in being able to alternate thrown/melee attacks, given that you still provoke an AoO for every mindblade you throw. The combination of feats would allow you to make a full attack, and if you drop all melee-range foes after the first attack or two, you can use your remaining attacks to throw mindblades. If you can point out a combat situation where it would be incredibly advantageous to have the ability, I'll consider revising my opinion, but I certainly can't think of one. I know, I know... But you can always hit "Back" in your browser and "ctrl-a, ctrl-c" save your post in a text file and post it later when the boards are back online.Completely off-topic, but just FYI, the "Back" button doesn't always retain form text, depending on your browser. IIRC, IE still doesn't, which was one of the main features I found appealing about Firefox.
drunkenewok 01-13-06, 09:00 PM	And because the board apparently took exception to my overly-long response: I think that Material Harmonics should spread out a little over the levels, giving the Mindstorm access to a new, but permanent, material at ever 2 levels or something. You could start with silver - cold iron - adamantine and even add in darkwood and deep crystal in there (especially deep crystal adds some extra ideas to the build)That would be easy enough to add to the ability description. Though I'm not entirely sure how Deep Crystal would work, since I'd originally only intended for the material type to apply to bypassing DR, and not any "other" special abilities it might have (like Deep Crystal's invest 2pp for +2d6 damage). It might make the ability over-complicated, since we might have to take into account the varying hardness/hp values for the different materials, or any unknown special abilities that "new" special materials (from splatbooks) might provide. I agree with Manifester level progression and Mindstorm Arrow progression as well as the lowered Skirmish ability, but do we need to restrict ourselves to just "one ability per level"?It's mostly my OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) because I like the way the table lines up, and it seems like a more balanced progression than having 2-3 abilities per level. I tend to believe that most of the suggested abilities are quite good enough on their own that adding multiple abilities per level would be a little overpowering... but that could just be me. I like the Mindkiller, but think we can do something more thematic and interesting rather than a Slaying Arrow. Make it a "Will save negates" and let the arrow do all its "normal" damage to Int/Wis instead. In general we can expect a good 15-25 damage which would kill most creatures or give them a huge penalty! What do you think?I picked Slaying Arrow because it was an existing ruleset that was easy to latch onto, and meshes well with the existing Bane limitations we've added. I'm not sure allowing the arrow to deal "normal" damage to Int/Wis is a good idea, since such an extreme hit to an ability is pretty substantial. Even if you limit it to targets for which you have the Bane ability, I cringe at it's use against low-Will targets - it would be a real tank-killer. (Consider that the average tank-type probably can't withstand even 10 points of Int damage before going unconscious, and he's unlikely to make the save...)I probably won't have time to do much reformatting in the next 24-48 hours, so feel free to do so yourself. If it isn't done and I have time, I'll probably sit down and do it.
Ra-Tiel 01-14-06, 04:20 AM	Hi. === @drunkenewok: Okay, so assuming our fighter has a Strength of 26 (reasonable but not excessive, imho), then he's doing an average of 33.5 damage on a regular hit, and 111 damage on a critical. Figuring that he's probably only going to crit on a 20 (weapon is not keen, and assuming he doesn't have ImpCrit), that's an actual average damage/hit of 44.6 (or an average expected damage/hit of 19.5). Isn't that worth the expenditure of 12 feats? It might sound like a lot of damage in theory, but it's hardly the stuff of legend. (Or rather, it is the stuff of legend, which is exactly what Epic characters are supposed to be doing... without being egregiously broken) I was talking about level 21. The difference between level 20 and level 21 is at most a single feat. But the soulknife can get a weapon enhancement that's meant for characters of much higher levels (because of the costs) right away. No other level 21 character can possibly afford a +6 weapon or a +5 weapon with a single +6 equivalent special ability. To this discrepancy in the advancement flow I was talking about. I just think that's a pretty large jump, that's all. --- Assuming our hypothetical character has a 26 Str, a keen soulbreaker psychokinetic burst scimitar +5 has a avg dmg/hit of 25, an average expected damage of 12.41 with an average 14.5% chance of forcing a DC18 Fort save to avoid a negative level. A shocking/flaming/icy burst scythe +5 coupled with ImpCrit:Scythe yields an average damage/hit of 44.1 and an expected average damage of 22. Again, it doesn't seem all that out of whack to me. I think you're misreading "soulbreaker". On a critical hit the target automatically suffers a negative level. The Fort save comes in later to avoid loosing a character level: Soulbreaker: This weapon has a special ability that functions only upon scoring a successful critical hit. On a successful critical hit, a soulbreaker weapon bestows one negative level on the foe. One day after being struck, if the negative levels have not been purged, the subject must succeed on a DC 18 Fortitude save for each negative level or lose a character level. Strong telepathy; ML 12th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, mindwipe; Price +3 bonus. When you shape your mindblade in 2 scimitars, perhaps even selecting Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat and following the full two-weapon fighting tree, we're looking at 7 attacks per round, each having a 30% chance of threatening a critical hit, thus possibly resulting in a negative level on the enemy. --- I'll agree that under the right circumstances this could be pretty impressive. But consider that the mindblader who has these abilities spent at least 8 feats and is at least L13. Or a non-mindblader character could pick up an identical item with no feat cost for only 128k gp (or 64k+1024xp+one feat). There's also the fact that if the character doesn't run up against CE outsiders, he's wasted a good deal of his potential. Again, it's a nice ability, but I hardly think it's "broken". First, I never even closly approached the word "broken", and second, I've already mentioned that it's heavily dependent on your type of campaign. And for that "wasted"... "holy" is pretty much always a good choice for a good character, at least in a relatively normal campaign, that is. --- As for the usage of the Epic Weapon cost table, I'm with MaverickWolf that it's probably the table that's at fault, rather than our feat system. Consider that the only advantage a +6 weapon provides compared to a +5 weapon is an additional 5% chance to hit and the ability to bypass Epic DR. The former is already accounted for by simply extending the non-epic table (for which a +6/+5 weapon should cost 242,000gp), and while the latter is definitely worth something, I don't think it should be worth a factor of 10 or more. I'll readily admit I don't fully comprehend how the Epic Weapon cost table is supposed to work (since I only have access to the SRD version atm, and text is pretty inscrutable), but from what I've gathered, a +6/+5 weapon could cost anywhere from 720k to 2420k. I was just using the table "as-is", and in my opinion it's pretty much obviously: Your weapon has an effective enhancement bonus of +6 or higher? --> Epic pricing. OR Your weapon has a special ability with a cost of "+6" or higher? --> Epic pricing. And as both requirements can be/are met by the soulknife's mindblade, it uses epic pricing, thus costing 2.42mio gp. I really don't want to argue if the epic weapon cost table is out of balance, or broken, or unrealistic, or anything. I was just using the rules WotC still provides for high-level play. --- The dancing special ability would be pretty unimpressive with a mindblade, given that a mindblade dissipates the moment you release it. I could see adding a feat that lets you add the dancing special ability to your mindblade, perhaps in the same manner as summoning a pair of mindblades or using Mental Armory? Maybe have Mental Armory as a prereq, let you summon the dancing blade and release it, taking the enhancement bonus penalty if you release it and summon another mindblade? I was just pointing out that there could be some trouble with that. Normally, one could say that a released weapon drops to the ground and doesn't do anything, but "dancing" animates the weapon, keeps it aloft, and allows it to strike at enemies. There was nothing in the mindblade's description that disallowed "dancing" from animating it, as this ability already circumvents the normal consequences of releasing a weapon. --- Consider that under our system this would require a minimum of 17 mindblade feats, spending nearly 1/3 of your special ability choices on vorpal, and require 34 ranks in Concentration (and thus CharLvl 31). At that point, given the costs, I really don't see it as that unbalanced. I was referring to the various soulknife fixes, most of all BlainTog's. :rolleyes: --- Assuming our character has 16 Str: collision scythe +2 - Dmg/Hit: 21.45, average expected damage: 9.49 keen lucky scimitar +2 - Dmg/Hit: 9.4, average expected damage: 5.5 wounding greatsword +2 - Dmg/Hit: 20.35, average expected damage: 10.17 (includes the hp that a CR 5 creature would lose due to Con loss) shock greatsword +1 + Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization - Dmg/Hit: 19.45, average expected damage: 9.72It doesn't look like the mindblader has a serious material advantage over a "normal" fighter. The fighter has two extra feats, while the mindblader has some extra cash, and the mindblader is doing at most 1hp/round average more than the fighter. (And that assumes the mindblader is attacking creatures vulnerable to Con loss) Well, I just think that WotC has some point not giving level 5 characters enough money to run around with +4 weapons. Also, Weapon Specialization is most likely - even in core-only games - one of the most sub-optimal feats a fighter can get. I would prefer Improved Trip or Improved Initiative any time of the day, thank you. Spending a feat that only allows you to increase your damage with a single weapon is imho just not worth it. Ok, you're a sword and board fighter, specialized in elven thinblades? Ok, but the not-so-big-BEG has a +2 scimitar as treasure. In the big city there are no elven craftsmen selling magical weapons. The dragon only has a +3 longsword in his hoard. ... If you want your feat to not be wasted, you either hope that the DM is customizing and tailoring the party treasure, giving you appropriate magical equipment he wouldn't give out otherwise, or you're running around with equipment not suited for your level just to keep the feat working. --- I disagree with your reasoning. First, you've assumed that any mindblader would replicate the special abilities of the existing Soulknife class. While you are correct that doing so would require 12/13 feats out of the Fighter's 19 to do so, it's not exactly the optimal way to expend your resources, since spending 5 feats on Psychic Strike probably isn't worth it, and there are better feats in the tree. Not to mention that a L20 Fighter who spends 13 feats replicating the existing Soulknife has an extra +5 BAB, access to WS, GWF, GWS, and still has 6 feats to spend. I was still running a comparison between a fighter using your feats, and a SRD soulknife. I don't assume that EVERY character would exactly replicate the abilities of the SRD class, but more was trying to point out that there are, at least in my feeling, some more issues to be resolved. Why should I take your [mindblade] feats, when I just could get Leap Attack, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper,... and outdamage your soulknife any time while Power Attacking the hell out my enemies? Or get the feats necessary for the "Chaingun Gattling Tripper" and battlefieldcontrol every opponent within what, 20 or 30ft? Of course your feats allow for a multitude of builds, can lend additional flavor to characters, and so on. But powerwise, they just can't keep up with the CWar feats. --- You'll probably want to spend at least 9-10 feats on the tree pre-epic for the enhancement bonuses, but that still leaves more than half your feats to spend on a combat specialty. Add in the fact that a fighter has a better BAB, and that the 9-10 mindblade feats offer a number of meaningful specializations on their own, it's not nearly as subpar as you make it sound. Now I'm confused. How can you compare the powerlevel of a SRD soulknife with a fighter using your feats, when the fighter doesn't have all the abilities the SRD class offers even if he could? :confused: In my opinion, to be reasonably able to make any comparison, the fighter has to get all abilities the class gets, otherwise there's something amiss. Of course, the fighter has some advantages over the SRD class (psychic strike, BAB) but all that for giving up almost all of his other flexibility, just to acquire these abilities? --- I'm also confused at the twin points you seem to be making. On one hand, you argue that the feat-tree is a waste because you cannot adequately replicate the existing Soulknife class making the feats a sub-par or even worthless choice. On the other hand you argue that the enhancement bonuses provided by the feats are totally overpowering and beyond what any character of comparable level should be able to attain. I'm curious to know how the feats can be both sub-par and overpowering at the same time, or which one of the two you actually consider to be the case. I'll just requote what I've already said: Well, I could have structured my line of reasoning more, with that you're right. But I'm actually not saying what you quote me to say. I'm saying that it's unbalancing to give a that powerful indestructable item to low-level characters. I'm saying that it's too demanding to spend all of your class features to gain class features for which you then have no feats left to augment them. Let's take a straight level 20 human fighter. That's 19 feats by level 20. Ok, the 13 feats I've mentioned above to gain the Soulknife class traits {6 left}. Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (being generous and allowing "mindblade", which in effect is all weapons the character is proficient with), Combat Expertise, Power Attack, two special abilities added. That's all. And what can this character do now? Is he really good at dealing damage? At disarming? Tripping? Blocking and playing "meat shield"? Protecting others? Anti-caster duty? Battlefield control? Mounted combat? Ranged combat? A SRD Soulknife has still at least 7 feats to play with and can specialize in either, in addition to having more skill points and a free Speed of Thought, while the "fighter soulknife" has given up all his flexibility just to acquire the traits the SRD class gains for free. But I don't want to give any additional griefs. Ok, I was misinterpretating what angellis_ater meant with "buying new weapon abilities" (I thought he wanted to go the feat route), but my point still stands. You've got a level 20 character who has a nifty weapon but basically can't do anything besides "attack roll, damage roll, attack roll, damage roll, attack roll,...". --- I see the mindblade feat tree as trading feats and flexibility in combat options in exchange for greater flexibility in weapon choice and weapon abilities (and saved gp). Your arguments seem to reinforce that perspective, since a character who invests heavily in the tree will indeed have fewer combat options, but will have an impressive weapon that is difficult/impossible to take away (via theft, sunder, disarm, etc). To me, such a trade-off is generally conceived to be a balancing factor (unless the advantage gained is significantly better or worse than the disadvantage, which I don't believe is the case here). It depends. When the all the advantages just allow the character to dish out a little more damage, without allowing any flexibility in combat options, I don't think it's worth the effort. Just inflicting a bit more damage is not enough at highlevel play. For example, there's no way that you can circumvent the DR of powerful baatezu or tanar'ri, as your mindblade can never have a material component (silver, cold iron,...). So even a werewolf could prove to be a very difficult opponent for you (DR 10/silver), let alone a balor or pit fiend. --- I purposely intended for the dichotomy between Soulblade Warrior and Throw Mindblade. If you have both feats and you throw a mindblade, you can rematerialize a replacement as a free action. However, if you have lost your blade for some other reason (it was sundered or disarmed, you dismissed it, you set up a dancing blade, etc) it still requires a swift action to rematerialize. I don't like the idea of reducing the Soulblade Warrior benefit to a free action, because that would make Sunder/Disarms even less of a hindrance, and would open up a bunch of options for the gish-type builds who normally need their swift actions for other purposes. Why would making it a free action make sunder/disarms even less optimal? You can only take a free action when it's your turn, so when an opponent sunders/disarms your mindblade you cannot recreate it until it's your turn. You still loose the ability to make AoOs and don't threaten any space any longer (baring Improved Unarmed Strike, which would REALLY be a waste of a feat for such a character...). The only situation where making it a free action would give an advantage to the soulknife is when an opponent had readied an action to sunder/disarm your mindblade or an opponent uses an AoO to sunder/disarm you But I think these situations are rare enough. A bit offtopic: I just find it horrible that everything coming out these days is considered a swift action. First, WotC creates a new type of action to give an advantage to casters, and then everything is forced into this action type. :ahem: --- There really isn't a contradiction, since even though Soulblade Warrior only allows rematerializing as a swift action, it is the combination of feats that lets you rematerialize more quickly, and only in certain circumstances. It might be helpful to clarify in the Special block that you can indeed rematerialize your mindblade after a throw as a free action, but I believe it is implied in the existing text. (Which is why I didn't include the clarification) But that throws up another question: why? Why can I recreate my mindblade only once per round normally, but more quickly with less effort and more often when I throw it away? If you really want to keep it in such a way, you should indeed point that out in the appropriate section of the feat's description. --- As for any balance concerns, I honestly don't see a major benefit in being able to alternate thrown/melee attacks, given that you still provoke an AoO for every mindblade you throw. The combination of feats would allow you to make a full attack, and if you drop all melee-range foes after the first attack or two, you can use your remaining attacks to throw mindblades. If you can point out a combat situation where it would be incredibly advantageous to have the ability, I'll consider revising my opinion, but I certainly can't think of one. Ok, I admit that my example is a bit wonky (without any levels, damage, HPs,...) and builds on the assumption that you can make 4 attacks per round (by BAB, or two-weapon fighting, haste,...), but I think you get the idea. Whenever readied actions come into play, it could be important to be able to switch melee/ranged with the mindblade. The situation is: a caster, his bodyguard, and two minions. One minion attacks, closing to melee range. The caster casts something. The bodyguard steps in front of the caster and readies an action to attack you, if you attack his charge. The other minion readies an action to help the bodyguard should he need it, but keeping behind the caster. You drop the minion in melee, and throw a mindblade at the caster. Then the bodyguard closes to melee-range, attacking you once. Then you attack the bodyguard, dropping him. Now the other minion moves in, but can't quite close the distance, so you can only attack him with a ranged weapon --> throw your mindblade. The sequence is clearly: melee, ranged, melee, ranged. --- Completely off-topic, but just FYI, the "Back" button doesn't always retain form text, depending on your browser. IIRC, IE still doesn't, which was one of the main features I found appealing about Firefox. But who uses the IE? :P I personally prefer Opera a lot over FireFox, as FF completely refuses to open some websites, http://www.paizo.com included. :waits: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
MaverickWolf 01-14-06, 11:54 AM	But who uses the IE? :P I personally prefer Opera a lot over FireFox, as FF completely refuses to open some websites, http://www.paizo.com included. :waits: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel. You might need an updated version of FireFox. It loads just fine for me.
Kirech 01-14-06, 01:54 PM	I see some problems with these. First one to stand out to me was the armor one. How many feats are there out there that give a bonus to AC of more than one or two without any sacrifices (i.e. Combat Expertise)? AC is usually driven by ability scores, equipment, and class abilities. You've also co-opted a lot of Kalashtar-specific feats. I don't see a problem with the shield one, but Soulblade Warrior should be Kalashtar only. That said, these feats put the finishing touch on my Gestalt Ftr//Mnk Kalashtar version of Battle Angel Alita (swapping out cyborg for psychic). Now I've got plasma jets and Hertza Haeon. One more thing. Could you update the top post with the current version of the feats? It would make it easier for someone reading the post for the first time (me) to get a complete look at it as it stands. EDIT: Having trouble with the threaded/hybrid display modes. I missed all of the two-page posts. Anyways, I think you should just keep the XPH list as-is, and then add a new list of epic enhancements with the epic feat. Also, if you take my advice and make the Soulblade Warrior feat Kalashtar only, make it also add Holy to the list, since that was part of a Kalashtar Soulknife racial sub. ability. EDIT 2: With Flurry as a prereq for Monastic Blade, Kalashtar racial sub. monks are excluded from taking it. Wouldn't it be better to require Ki Strike (magic)? 4th level is the first level where monks deal more than 1d6 damage anyway, and the ability really has nothing to do with Flurry of Blows.
angellis_ater 01-14-06, 05:54 PM	Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities from the "Special Abilities" list below. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus may not go above +5. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. Defending +1 Keen +1 Ki Focus +1 Lucky +1 Merciful +1 Mighty Cleaving +1 Psychokinetic +1 Sundering +1 Vicious +1 Collision +2 Mindcrusher +2 Parrying +2 Psychokinetic burst +2 Suppression +2 Wounding +2 Bodyfeeder +3 Mindfeeder +3 Soulbreaker +3 Speed +3 Brilliant Energy +4 For each point of Intelligence bonus your character has, he can store an additional special ability above and beyond those in the above list. Each new ability must be "bought" and occupies a number of [Mindblade] feats equal to its bonus. Once you have bought a new ability this choice cannot be changed in any way. You may choose to add a new special ability every time you gain a level (but only if you have enough [Mindblade] feats) For example: You want to have Bane (Humans) and Flaming Burst added to your list of available special abilties. For this you need an Intelligence bonus of +2 (14-15) and atleast three [Mindblade] feats (since the total bonus is +3). Bane (each type is bought seperately) +1 Flaming +1 Frost +1 Ghost Touch +1 Shock +1 Thundering +1 Anarchic +2 * Axiomatic +2 * Disruption +2 Flaming Burst +2 Holy +2 * Icy Burst +2 Shocking Burst +2 Unholy +2 * Coup de Grace +5 Vorpal +5 * = Must have the corresponding alignment to buy and use. Note that these require the Epic Mindblade feat to choose and otherwise follow the same rules as the above Additional abilities. Acidic Blast +6 Fiery Blast +6 Icy Blast +6 Lightning Blast +6 Mighty Disruption +6 Sonic Blast +6 Dread (each type is bought seperately) +7 Anarchic Power +8 * Axiomatic Power +8 * Holy Power +8 * Unholy Power +8 * * = Must have the corresponding alignment to buy and use. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium character materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization (Mindblade). Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 25 Concentration check. On a successful check, you maintain your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Concentration before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a normal materialize action (usually a move action) on your turn, you can attempt a new Concentration check to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade, Concentration 24 ranks Benefit: Your enhancement bonus can now rise above +5 and you can buy additional special abilities from the Epic Mindblade Abilities list. Your Mindblade counts as Epic for bypassing damage reduction. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. This counts as a swift action and is an exception to how manifesting your Mindblade normally works. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. This feat counts as two Mindblade feats for the purpose of enhancements. "] Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade's special abilities. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade loses all its special abilities. "]Your mindblade melee attacks are guided by inner wisdom rather than physical strength. Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You use your Wisdom bonus instead of your strength bonus to determine your attack and damage bonuses while using your mindblade in melee. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may taken once for every 3 ranks you have in Concentration. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental functions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deal 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You must choose as a free action at the beginning of your turn each round whether the enhancement bonus applies to attack or defense. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC25 Concentration check described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonuses on your Shield of Thought and mindblade are not reduced when you manifest both simultaneously. "] Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: Every time you manifest your Shield of Thought, you can choose any +1 special ability from the shield special ability list. This ability lasts as long as you maintain the shield. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you can choose an additional +1 special ability, or any combination of abilities whose cost does not exceed the number of times you've taken this feat. You cannot gain more shield special abilities bonus higher than the special ability bonus on your mindblade. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional pair causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 2 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to your ranks in Concentration. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "]You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape. I hope that I've managed to compile the information correctly now. I've added the "Special Abilties" list together with the two lists of options "Extra abilities" and "Extra Epic abilities" and how to add these to your normal list (buy). I decided to go for a "Intelligence bonus" determinator, because Intelligence simply represents how much information you can retain and it helps offset the bonuses slightly since not very many fighter-types have alot of Intelligence. I added a line about the enhancement bonus not going above +5 and a new "Epic Mindblade" feat which also makes the Mindblade pierce "Epic" DR.
angellis_ater 01-14-06, 08:19 PM	I see some problems with these. First one to stand out to me was the armor one. How many feats are there out there that give a bonus to AC of more than one or two without any sacrifices (i.e. Combat Expertise)? AC is usually driven by ability scores, equipment, and class abilities. Atleast three feats as far as I know and all come from Eberron. Adamantine Body, Mithril Body, Deepwood Body. Note also that Soul Armor gives insight bonus to AC, which means alot of other powers and spells become less useful and that it does require alot of spent feats and skill points (for Concentration) to become really useful. You've also co-opted a lot of Kalashtar-specific feats. I don't see a problem with the shield one, but Soulblade Warrior should be Kalashtar only. Why should it be Kalashtar only? First of all, we are not making these feats for any specific campaign world, so if a DM wants to add racial prerequisites to these feats than he or she is very welcome to do so. Second of all, why should only Kalashtar have access to the only feat which allows the Mindblader to manifest his Mindblade as a swift action? One more thing. Could you update the top post with the current version of the feats? It would make it easier for someone reading the post for the first time (me) to get a complete look at it as it stands. It has been requested that we keep updated posts at the end, so that people can see the development of this idea. EDIT 2: With Flurry as a prereq for Monastic Blade, Kalashtar racial sub. monks are excluded from taking it. Wouldn't it be better to require Ki Strike (magic)? 4th level is the first level where monks deal more than 1d6 damage anyway, and the ability really has nothing to do with Flurry of Blows. Since Kalashtar are campaign-specific, the DM who adopts our Feat Tree version could very well exchange this requirement for whatever he feels is more appropriate (such as the Psionic ability Kalashtar monks get).
drunkenewok 01-14-06, 08:20 PM	I was talking about level 21. The difference between level 20 and level 21 is at most a single feat. But the soulknife can get a weapon enhancement that's meant for characters of much higher levels (because of the costs) right away. No other level 21 character can possibly afford a +6 weapon or a +5 weapon with a single +6 equivalent special ability. To this discrepancy in the advancement flow I was talking about. I just think that's a pretty large jump, that's all.Personally, I think the Epic Weapon tables (at least as you've interpreted them) are insanely out of whack. Consider that a +5/+5 weapon costs 200k gp. Increasing that weapon to a +6/+5 weapon increases it's base price to 2,420k gp. A twelve-fold increase in cost for an additional 5% chance to hit, and the ability to bypass Epic DR. If you think that the table makes sense and is correct, you're probably right that it's unfair that a soulknife should get access to such a weapon, even if they have spent at least 11 feats to get it. Personally, I'd put the cost at a much more reasonable 260k (11 * 11 * 2000 * 1.1), following the standard non-epic cost progression, and adding an extra 10% for the ability to bypass epic DR. That would put such a weapon within the realm of possibility for a L20 character, if they're willing to spend more than 1/3 of their cash enchanting their weapon. Given that a soulknife is spending between 50-100% of his feats for the same benefit, it seems about fair to me. I really don't want to argue if the epic weapon cost table is out of balance, or broken, or unrealistic, or anything. I was just using the rules WotC still provides for high-level play.Personally, I only use WotC rules if the 1) Make sense, 2) Are fun, 3) are balanced. In this case, the epic weapon base prices don't really fit any of my criteria, so I'm perfectly willing to discard them for something that does fit. When you shape your mindblade in 2 scimitars, perhaps even selecting Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat and following the full two-weapon fighting tree, we're looking at 7 attacks per round, each having a 30% chance of threatening a critical hit, thus possibly resulting in a negative level on the enemy.So we're considering a build with at least 18 feats (12 mindblade, 4 TWF, WFocus/GWFocus) at level 21. It has 7 attacks, and on average will deal 1 negative level per full attack. (His expected rate of critical hits is less than 14%, so with seven attacks you can expect 1 to crit.) Consider a L7 Wizard can deal more negative levels in a single round (Enervation has an average expected negative level rate of 2+), and a L21 Sorcerer with enervation can theoretically deal 2.5 negative levels every round for 36 rounds, for a daily maximum of 90 negative levels, the mindblader is going to need to have at least 90 rounds of full-attacks to catch up (or be insanely lucky for 13 rounds). Is it powerful? Yeah, I think it's pretty nice, but I don't think it's unreasonable. First, I never even closly approached the word "broken", and second, I've already mentioned that it's heavily dependent on your type of campaign. And for that "wasted"... "holy" is pretty much always a good choice for a good character, at least in a relatively normal campaign, that is.Forgive me for assuming "a weapon that should never be in the hands of a L5 character" (emphasis mine) implied that the ability was "broken". As for holy, it is an incredibly nice ability - if you frequently/always encounter evil characters. In my current campaign, I have a paladin with a holy double scimitar, and she only gets to use it on about 50-70% of the targets. The other 30-50% of the time, she's stuck with vanilla damage, which could have been increased using another special ability. Holy's nice, but I think it's appropriately priced at +2, so it's not any more ungodly powerful in the hands of the mindblader than it is for anyone else. I was just pointing out that there could be some trouble with that. Normally, one could say that a released weapon drops to the ground and doesn't do anything, but "dancing" animates the weapon, keeps it aloft, and allows it to strike at enemies. There was nothing in the mindblade's description that disallowed "dancing" from animating it, as this ability already circumvents the normal consequences of releasing a weapon.The dancing ability merely animates a blade, allowing it to attack. It doesn't say anything about overriding this section of the rules:The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates.Thus, if you drop a longsword +3, it's still a longsword +3, but it's lying on the ground. If you drop a dancing longsword +1, it dances and attacks. If you drop a mindblade +3, that mindblade is gone. If you drop a dancing mindblade +1, that mindblade is just as gone. If the blade didn't disappear entirely when you release your grip, it would work just like a normal dancing longsword +1, but dancing doesn't have anything to say about maintaining a materialized mindblade. I was referring to the various soulknife fixes, most of all BlainTog's. :rolleyes:I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from the :rolleyes: stuff. You never mentioned that you were only referring only to the soulknife fixes, and since this thread has little if anything to do with those threads, it's seems like a fair assumption that you intended the comment to extend to this system. Also note: You commented a while back that forcing the character to keep the enhancement bonus and special ability costs within one was a worthless restriction - yet that restriction is the only thing that prevents a mindblader from doing exactly what you espouse to hate... </snippy retort> It's also worth noting that a vorpal brilliant energy mindblade +1 isn't all that incredibly powerful. Sure it's easy to hit, but you still have at best a 5% chance of severing a head on each attack. It's hard to run the numbers on it, since Armor/Shield bonuses tend to vary dramatically, but you're giving up a lot of "bread 'n butter" damage for the outside chance of getting kill shots. I'd be willing to wager that it's not significantly more powerful than some other +10 weapons you might design. Well, I just think that WotC has some point not giving level 5 characters enough money to run around with +4 weapons.Well, WotC in their infinite wisdom has granted the ability to purchase the equivalent of 16,500gp worth of armor with a single L1 feat (Adamantine Body). I don't see how spending five times the resources and waiting at least 4 extra levels for a 32k item is all that much more abusive. From a cost/return perspective, the mindblade feat tree by L5 only gives you 6400gp per feat (5333gp if you have to buy Wild Talent), which makes them less than 1/3 as price-effective as the Adamantine Body feat. Also, Weapon Specialization is most likely - even in core-only games - one of the most sub-optimal feats a fighter can get. I would prefer Improved Trip or Improved Initiative any time of the day, thank you. Spending a feat that only allows you to increase your damage with a single weapon is imho just not worth it.So let me make sure I've got this straight. I've shown that a fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization is as good or better than a mindblader with a +4 weapon at L5. You've asserted that Weapon Specialization is a sub-optimal feat compared to ImpTrip or ImpInit, thus the following statement should be true according to your point of view: +4 mindblade at L5 <= Weapon Specialization < ImpTrip So if the mindblade feats are less powerful, how is it horribly unbalancing? (Side Note: ImpTrip is nice if you specialize in a tripping weapon, which doesn't cover the entire gamut, so it's only slightly more versatile than WS, and ImpInit, with a 20% boost to going first, isn't usually high on my list of must-have's.) I was still running a comparison between a fighter using your feats, and a SRD soulknife. I don't assume that EVERY character would exactly replicate the abilities of the SRD class, but more was trying to point out that there are, at least in my feeling, some more issues to be resolved.Okay, so an SRD soulknife compared to a Fighter who takes mindblade feats to replicate the SRD soulknife abilities: Soulknife BAB +15 (three attacks) Speed of Thought Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus (extra +2 to attack) +9 weapon 7 feats Fighter BAB +20 (four attacks) Access to Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialization (usually a much better choice than usual unless the DM refuses to allow mindblade as a choice) +10 weapon 6 featsSo the fighter is down one feat, but has an extra +4 (+3 from BAB, +1 from weapon) to hit and an extra attack compared to the Soulknife's Speed of Thought. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the fighter has a definite advantage there. Why should I take your [mindblade] feats, when I just could get Leap Attack, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper,... and outdamage your soulknife any time while Power Attacking the hell out my enemies? Or get the feats necessary for the "Chaingun Gattling Tripper" and battlefieldcontrol every opponent within what, 20 or 30ft?Um... because you like the idea of a mindblade? Anyone can go to the CO boards and yank the Flavor-of-the-minute super-build, but most players I've run into don't. You're also strongly implying that because our feats aren't as powerful as the most powerful feats available to a fighter, they aren't worth even creating. I could be wrong, but Toughness and Endurance definitely fit that bill, and there are still players who take them. (Admittedly it's usually only for pre-reqs, but that's beside the point). Just because a feat (or series of feats) aren't the best choice in town doesn't make them worthless. Our tree also opens the option to take those incredibly nice feats along with the mindblade tree, if you're willing to sacrifice your weapon a bit. Nothing in the rules we've presented says you can't mix and match, we're just trying to keep the corner cases under control and balanced. Now I'm confused. How can you compare the powerlevel of a SRD soulknife with a fighter using your feats, when the fighter doesn't have all the abilities the SRD class offers even if he could? :confused:The same way you compare a mindblader build to a build with Leap Attack/Combat Brute, etc. I personally think that spending 5 feats on Psychic Strike probably isn't worth the cost in most cases, so forcing the Fighter-build to perfectly replicate the SRD Soulknife is actually making him less effective. If you allow him to pick and choose mindblade feats to perfectly complement his fighting style, he'll be significantly more effective. For example, there's no way that you can circumvent the DR of powerful baatezu or tanar'ri, as your mindblade can never have a material component (silver, cold iron,...). So even a werewolf could prove to be a very difficult opponent for you (DR 10/silver), let alone a balor or pit fiend.Perhaps, but it's a limitation that is also inherent in the SRD Soulknife, and we can easily add a feat (along the lines of the Mindstorm's Material Harmonics) that would let the character treat his mindblade as a special material for overcoming DR. (I'm also personally a little unhappy with the "golf-bag" syndrome induced by the new DR rules, and usually allow certain levels of magic item to be treated as "special" for overcoming DR - ie +2 weapon could overcome silver, +4 could overcome cold iron, +5 adamantine, etc - and I'm not unique, since I got the idea from Monte Cook (http://www.montecook.com/)) Why would making it a free action make sunder/disarms even less optimal?Because the mindblader would have to spend his swift action to rematerialize on his turn. That would mean no immediate actions before your turn, and no other swift actions once you get to your turn. It's not a big difference if your character is a vanilla fighter-type, but if you've got a gish build and count on swift-action buffs, or have immediate action defense options (e.g. Elan), it definitely forces the player to make a choice, and I'm personally in favor of forcing the player to make a choice, since that's what makes the game fun. A bit offtopic: I just find it horrible that everything coming out these days is considered a swift action. First, WotC creates a new type of action to give an advantage to casters, and then everything is forced into this action type. :ahem:Personally, I find it just horrible that you think that only casters should benefit from the swift action rules. Casters have been the most powerful high-level characters in the game since long before swift actions were added, and they are the least in need of "an advantage". I prefer to hinder casters and hybrids a little by making them waste their swift actions (or choose whether to waste them) when their vanilla tank comrades can do so with little hindrance. But that throws up another question: why? Why can I recreate my mindblade only once per round normally, but more quickly with less effort and more often when I throw it away? If you really want to keep it in such a way, you should indeed point that out in the appropriate section of the feat's description.You could just as easily argue "why is it faster to recreate the mindblade when I take Soulblade Warrior"? Or maybe "Why don't I get a bonus on shortsword damage when I take Weapon Specialization:Longsword"? It's because you took the feat. In this case, it's a virtual feat, formed by the synergy between Throw Mindblade and Soulblade Warrior. If you only have Throw Mindblade, you can throw one mindblade a round as a standard action, and rematerialize one as a move action. With only Soulblade Warrior, you can materialize as a swift action, but if you try to throw the blade, it dissipates on leaving your hand. When you take both, you can throw blades really quickly, and rematerialize your blade quickly and easily. It isn't any more unusual than any other feat, imo. Though since it irks you so, we can add the text to the description. The situation is: a caster, his bodyguard, and two minions. One minion attacks, closing to melee range. The caster casts something. The bodyguard steps in front of the caster and readies an action to attack you, if you attack his charge. The other minion readies an action to help the bodyguard should he need it, but keeping behind the caster. You drop the minion in melee, and throw a mindblade at the caster. Then the bodyguard closes to melee-range, attacking you once. Then you attack the bodyguard, dropping him. Now the other minion moves in, but can't quite close the distance, so you can only attack him with a ranged weapon --> throw your mindblade. The sequence is clearly: melee, ranged, melee, ranged.So... I'm not really sure how you're getting 4 attacks in this situation. The bodyguard and second minion can't ready an action to attack you in melee if they're not already in melee (you can only ready standard actions). Thus the sequence of the mindblader's attacks would be more like: Attack the first minion in melee, dropping him Throw a mindblade at the caster (the bodyguard can't take his readied action, nor can the second minion) Option #1 - Make two more thrown mindblade attacks Option #2 - Take a 5' step toward the bodyguard (assuming he's only 5' away) and make a melee attack, in which case the bodyguard might get to use his readied action (since you attacked his charge last attack) and counterattack, though some DMs would argue you have to use your readied action immediately after the condition is met But who uses the IE?Last I checked, like 85%+ of Internet users... :D (Though admittedly no one I know)I personally prefer Opera a lot over FireFox, as FF completely refuses to open some websites, http://www.paizo.com included. :waits:<shrug> Never had a problem with it myself, from v0.6 to v1.5. I occasionally get sites that are strictly IE only which mess with FF's rendering a bit, butin the same case Opera's "IE masking" can either make the page render fine or totally screw it up. (Though I heard in passing the IE mask might have gone away?) First one to stand out to me was the armor one. How many feats are there out there that give a bonus to AC of more than one or two without any sacrifices (i.e. Combat Expertise)? AC is usually driven by ability scores, equipment, and class abilities.A decent point, but there are exceptions (i.e. the Warforged body feats). It's worth noting that if you go straight for Soul Armor, it's only a +1 bonus (i.e. you've only got 2 mindblade feats, Shield of Thought and Soul Armor), and it's not until you take a lot of extra feats that it gets higher. As it's a deflection bonus, it's one of the second most common non-stacking AC bonuses in the game (behind only armor/shield bonuses), so while you can pick it up, it won't stack with a wide array of other items/spells/abilities. If you can think of a situation where it would be overpowering, I'm perfectly willing to tone it down a bit, but I don't think it's bad as-is. You've also co-opted a lot of Kalashtar-specific feats. I don't see a problem with the shield one, but Soulblade Warrior should be Kalashtar only.This was actually intentional (at least for me). I don't like the idea that the only decent soulknives in the multiverse are the kalashtar, and I also think that any suggested rules revision should be setting-independent. That said, if you want to take the feat tree to your campaign and add a whole slew of Kalashtar racial restrictions, you're perfectly welcome to do so. For the base project, though, I'd rather keep it generic, since I know there were many soulknife fans who are put off by the fact that so many useful soulknife feats are kalashtar only (and thus unavailable). One more thing. Could you update the top post with the current version of the feats? It would make it easier for someone reading the post for the first time (me) to get a complete look at it as it stands.An excellent suggestion, and one which I hope angellis_ater will see to when he finds the time. :) EDIT: Having trouble with the threaded/hybrid display modes. I missed all of the two-page posts. Anyways, I think you should just keep the XPH list as-is, and then add a new list of epic enhancements with the epic feat. Also, if you take my advice and make the Soulblade Warrior feat Kalashtar only, make it also add Holy to the list, since that was part of a Kalashtar Soulknife racial sub. ability.Again, you're welcome to make setting-specific changes you choose. As-is, you can add holy to the ability list by taking any two mindblade feats (e.g. Soulblade Warrior and Throw Mindblade), in addition to the abilities granted with the feats themselves. EDIT 2: With Flurry as a prereq for Monastic Blade, Kalashtar racial sub. monks are excluded from taking it. Wouldn't it be better to require Ki Strike (magic)? 4th level is the first level where monks deal more than 1d6 damage anyway, and the ability really has nothing to do with Flurry of Blows.A very good point. Flurry of Blows was added more as a "must be a monk" prereq than a thematic one... My only concern with changing the prereq to Ki Strike (magic) is that it would eliminate Monastic Blade as an option for builds with only 1-3 levels of Monk, and there are many PrCs/items that increase the monk's base unarmed damage, so it would be an extra restriction... I don't really have a strong feeling either way, since it would prevent the "dip-builds" who take 1-2 levels of Monk/Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian and then PrC like crazy, but I'm not sure it's really necessary to restrict it, given the relative power (i.e. weakness) of the feat...
drunkenewok 01-14-06, 08:47 PM	A couple points on the latest revision: I vaguely remember debating changing the Soulblade Warrior from counting as two feats to granting draw as a swift action and +2 initiative, to make it less of a "must have" feat. Ra-Tiel brings up the point that Mindblades will be decidely subpar at piercing certain types of DR - might be nice to add a feat similar to the Mindstorm's Material Harmonics to make up for that If we're switching to an intelligence limiter on extra special abilities, note that this will make it very nice for gish types (psion/wizard and fighter hybrids), while hindering the feat heavy tank types who typically have Int as a dump stat - I might suggest changing to 2*Int bonus, to give low-Int fighters a chance at some of the cooler high-level and/or epic abilities. Otherwise, a fighter would need 22 Int (!) to get even one epic special ability If we keep the Int limit, it might be worth adding in some thematic feats that would grant the mindblade other special abilities without counting against the Int limit: Flameblade - grants access to Flaming and Flaming Burst Aligned Mindblade - grants access to Axiomatic/Anarchic/Holy/Unholy based on your alignment Ghost-killer - Ghost touch, Undead Bane, DisruptionYou could also have them as prereqs for the related Epic special abilities - i.e. you need Aligned Mindblade and good alignment in order to take Holy Power Otherwise, it looks good. I'd also suggest adding the latest revision into the first post, though I'd also keep the ones at the end of the thread, so we can chart progress...
Ra-Tiel 01-15-06, 03:37 AM	Hi. === @drunkenewok: [...] You know, I had a nice long point-by-point reply typed out before I decided that it's just a waste of time, because you're evading my points regarding the RAW and your feats with house-rules, you're not really dealing with my points, as you counterargue them without answering to them, your opinion about the feats is already formed in concrete and won't change no matter what I say, you're making fun of imho valid points and arguments, you're already taking any criticism on your feats as an almost personal insult, and obviously you don't welcome or appreciate my input and comments. Therefore I've decided to no longer participate in this discussion. I wish you and angellis_ater the best for your feats, but I'm out of here. And perhaps you should re-read post #111, I was mentioning that I refer to the other fixes. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-15-06, 11:15 AM	Some points to DrunkenEwok: Yeah - I remember that discussion on Iniative as well, must've just missed it when I redid the Feat Tree compilation - will fix and add at beginning as well. The Int bonus only decides the NUMBER of additional abilities you can have, not the total bonus. So with Int 14 you could potentially have 2 +6 abilities added to your main list. If we add "Material Harmonics" as a feat, we need to rework that ability for the Mindstorm PrC. See my suggestion below. Material Harmonics [Mindblade] Benefit: When you assign or reassign special abilities to your mind blade (which normally take 8 hours), you can add a material component as well. The mind blade counts as being of this material until you choose a new material. The available materials are: Adamantine Alchemical silver Deepwood Deep Crystal Now, the question is if we should let these materials change the hardness and HP of the mind blade as well (for sunder attempts) and add other benefits (such as deep crystals "2pp = +2d6 damage")?
drunkenewok 01-15-06, 01:24 PM	The Int bonus only decides the NUMBER of additional abilities you can have, not the total bonus. So with Int 14 you could potentially have 2 +6 abilities added to your main list.Ooops... serves me right for not reading carefully. :blush: That said, I'm still not 100% sold on the necessity of this limitation. Assuming we have a "normal" mindblader who takes 10 feats (plus Form Mindblade and Wild Talent if necessary), the character can choose at most 10 options from the expansion list. Of course, he can only use at most 5 of those options at any one time, and it takes 8 hours to reassign them. Sure, a character could choose Holy, Bane (evil outsiders) and Bane (chaotic outsiders) and be the end-all-be-all Demon-slayer, but you couldn't use all the abilities until at least L13, at which point (assuming a greatsword mindblade shape) you're dealing 8d6+4 damage (avg 32) to CE outsiders, or 6d6+2 (avg 23) to LE outsiders, 4d6 (avg 14) to evil creatures, and only 2d6 (avg 7) to everything else. Assuming that each category is of equal size, you're dealing an average of 19 points of damage per attack. I guess that just doesn't seem that incredible to me. Admittedly, the choices would be excellent if the campaign is centered in the Abyss (or even just the Blood War), but the "average" campaign probably isn't that focused. The mindblade special abilities suffer from exactly the same limitation as a caster's spell selection. If the wizard picks just the right spell for just the right occasion, he's going to kick some serious booty. But if he doesn't have just the right spell prepared, he's out of luck. The mindblader is in the same boat. If he can prepare for a given challenge, he's going to be much more effective than an comparable fighter, but without that foreknowledge and preparation, he's in the same boat as the wizard. Unless we provide a feat or class ability that lets you change your special abilities quickly during the adventure (like what Morphic Arrow does, without the limitations, or maybe Mental Armory), I don't see adding abilities to the list to be all that unbalancing. If we do stick with the limit, I'd definitely be in favor of thematic feats like the ones I suggested above, or provide some sort of "upgrade path" - say if a character chooses Flaming at L1, he should be able to upgrade that choice to Flaming Burst at some point, and potentially to Fiery Blast. That or just let the character change his choices at every 5th level? I'm just concerned about "lock-in" choices, where a novice player makes a poor decision at low level, and ends up regretting it the rest of his career. If we add "Material Harmonics" as a feat, we need to rework that ability for the Mindstorm PrC. See my suggestion below.I'd probably give Material Harmonics as a bonus feat, and allow the player to change the material type with Morphic Arrow. Or you could just add the ability to change the material type to Morphic Arrow if the character has the Material Harmonics feat, without providing it as a bonus feat. Material Harmonics [Mindblade] I'd probably have this require Shape Mindblade as a prereq, and/or work like the special abilities (in that you must maintain focus to maintain the material type, unless you have Inner Focus) A feat is a relatively hefty cost for the benefits provided, so I'd probably allow the mindblade to be treated exactly as if it were made of the material (hardness, hp, special abilities, and bypassing DR) Given that there is a definite power difference in the materials, I'd probably make some sort of table, with a given number of Concentration ranks as a prereq - Alchemical Silver might require 8 ranks, Cold Iron or Darkwoord 12 ranks, Adamantine or Deep Crystal 15 ranks. Would prevent a L1 character from getting an Adamantine weapon If we decide that the ability should only affect bypassing DR, we can probably dispense with the rank requirements, since the ability to bypass DR isn't useful unless you are bypassing that DR, which only happens at higher levels.
angellis_ater 01-15-06, 05:03 PM	I think we can go with a bunch of Ability-based feats which might even add some additional flavor, like "Flaming Mindblade" giving access to Flaming, Flaming Burst and doing one more damage vs creatures of the Cold Subtype? Allowing someone to exchange their choices once for every 5th [Mindblade] feat would work for me. Not as good as every 5th level, but still the possibility exists. Ofcourse we should have the Prerequisites, I just forgot about them. Having Concentration 6 ranks as a starter would be nice, adding 2 for every type we have: C6: Silver C8: Deepwood C10: Cold Iron C12: Deep Crystal C14: Adamantine I also think we should use the additional hardness and HP, together with whatever other abilities the material might give (like bypassing hardness or boosting damage). Sounds like a good feat if you ask me.
Kirech 01-16-06, 01:20 PM	I'm going to put two more cents in. If I get another response that amounts to "Yeeeeah...but no" (all I seem to get on these boards), I'll just be on my merry. I think we can go with a bunch of Ability-based feats which might even add some additional flavor, like "Flaming Mindblade" giving access to Flaming, Flaming Burst and doing one more damage vs creatures of the Cold Subtype? Allowing someone to exchange their choices once for every 5th [Mindblade] feat would work for me. Not as good as every 5th level, but still the possibility exists. I think you're over-complicating things by trying to allow extra enhancements. Have just the original list available, then when epic levels roll around, have that 'Epic Mindblade' feat add on a new short list of epic enhancements. As it is, you're giving the bladethinker a lot more to keep track of than most feat chains, and the soulknife was given a limited selection for a reason. Ofcourse we should have the Prerequisites, I just forgot about them. Having Concentration 6 ranks as a starter would be nice, adding 2 for every type we have: C6: Silver C8: Deepwood C10: Cold Iron C12: Deep Crystal C14: Adamantine I also think we should use the additional hardness and HP, together with whatever other abilities the material might give (like bypassing hardness or boosting damage). Sounds like a good feat if you ask me. I don't think the material-changing aspect is necessary at all. First of all, there's already a means to partially bypassing DR for the bladethinker, and that's Resonating Blade (also, a monk can make it a Ki weapon). Secondly, not every fighter has access to every material necessary to get through DR. The most recent high-level campaign I was in, the warrior types were constantly just having to deal with the fact that their attacks did 5-20 less damage to certain enemies. These were not poor players, either, they just couldn't afford having five copies made of their weapons of choice. It's my opinion that this is a great idea for a feat chain, and I'm incorporating it into a campaign I'm working on, but you're starting to over-complicate it. Don't let 'feature creep' kill a good idea.
drunkenewok 01-16-06, 03:40 PM	I've written up some feats, getting Material Harmonics hashed out in rules lingo, getting the ball rolling on the thematic special-ability feats, and adding a couple adaptations from other feats I've seen (with nods to MaverickWolf for Oversized Blade and Dual Wielder, and Todd for Hunter's Blade and Blade of the Holy Champion) "]Though extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works just like a special ability you assign to your mindblade, can be changed during the same 8 hour period of meditation, and is lost if you lose your psionic focus. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Deep Crystal - 12 ranks Adamantine - 14 ranks"]You can sheathe your mindblade in dangerous energy. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: Choose one energy type from acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Your mindblade adds a single point of damage of the chosen energy type on each successful attack. You also add the energy special abilities corresponding to the chosen energy type to your list of special abilities. For example, if you choose fire, you add the Flaming and Flaming Burst special abilities to your list of available special abilities. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you must choose a different energy type."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Epic Mindblade, Energy Blade (with the chosen energy type) Benefit: Choose one energy type from acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You add the energy special ability corresponding to the chosen energy type to your list of available special abilities. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you must choose a different energy type."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You add the alignment special abilities to your list of available special abilities. Any ability must match one of your alignment components. For example, a Lawful Good character would add the Holy and Axiomatic special abilities to his list, while a Neutral Evil character would add the Unholy special ability to her list."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Favored Enemy class feature, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You add the Bane special ability corresponding to each of your Favored Enemies to your list of available special abilities. In addition, while your mindblade is materialized, it vibrates slightly whenever one of your favored enemies is within 30 feet, alerting you to their presence."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Smite Evil class feature, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You add the Holy special ability to your list of available special abilities, and your mindblade is always treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, whenever you use your smite evil ability, the threat range of your weapon is doubled."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: The damage for your mindblade increases by one step, as if it were one size category larger, without increasing the requirements to wield it. Special: This feat does not stack with any other feat or magic item that provides a similar bonus, such as Improved Natural Attack."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Two Weapon Fighting, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: When wielding two mindblades, your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 1."] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: You add the Ghost Touch, Undead Bane, and Disruption special abilities to your list of available special abilities. If I get another response that amounts to "Yeeeeah...but no" (all I seem to get on these boards), I'll just be on my merry.I'm sorry if you felt like I (we) were dismissing your opinions on the kalashtar changes. They are very valid points, and if I were designing (or just adapting) strictly for the Eberron campaign setting, rest assured that I'd probably add a whole bunch of racial restrictions, maybe even making the whole feat tree Kalashtar/Inspired only. But since we're designing for a target audience that is setting neutral, I don't want to add any setting-specific material/requirements that isn't strictly necessary. I think you're over-complicating things by trying to allow extra enhancements. Have just the original list available, then when epic levels roll around, have that 'Epic Mindblade' feat add on a new short list of epic enhancements. As it is, you're giving the bladethinker a lot more to keep track of than most feat chains, and the soulknife was given a limited selection for a reason.I actually agree. There is an awful lot of linkage between how many mindblade feats you have and what you can do with it, to the point of being too much. I'm tempted to cut out the "automatic" ability addition, and just stick with the vanilla mindblade list (plus one or two), and allow adding extra abilities via feats (as above). It reduces the complication factor significantly, but still allows the option to customize the mindblade options for a given character. I don't think the material-changing aspect is necessary at all. First of all, there's already a means to partially bypassing DR for the bladethinker, and that's Resonating Blade (also, a monk can make it a Ki weapon).Good point(s). I'll readily admit that the feat is probably not necessary, but the mindblader is at a greater disadvantage vs high-level DR than most normal players. The mindblade only bypasses magic DR, while any given "purchased" weapon can have one material type for relatively cheap. (ie, 2-3k isn't much when the whole weapon costs 203k). This puts the mindblader at a disadvantage, which the Material Harmonics feat alleviates. (i.e., a mindblader can only have a single material type on any given day, though he can change that material from day-to-day) Even if we do toss the feat, I'd still like to keep the ability for the Mindstorm PrC, since an archer can get different material arrows for relatively cheap, which was the reason I came up with the ability in the first place.
Kirech 01-16-06, 04:43 PM	Good point(s). I'll readily admit that the feat is probably not necessary, but the mindblader is at a greater disadvantage vs high-level DR than most normal players. The mindblade only bypasses magic DR, while any given "purchased" weapon can have one material type for relatively cheap. (ie, 2-3k isn't much when the whole weapon costs 203k). This puts the mindblader at a disadvantage, which the Material Harmonics feat alleviates. (i.e., a mindblader can only have a single material type on any given day, though he can change that material from day-to-day) There's a tradeoff here. A bladethinker without 'material harmonics' has a significant disadvantage against material-based DR (though not as significant as, say, rogue vs golem. Now THAT was a tough fight). A bladethinker with the feat has a very large advantage over your average fighter against DR. Said fighter may have to accept that his +5 holy flaming burst keen adamantine greataxe is just going to do a bit less damage against demons. Our bladethinker just has to anticipate the trip to the Abyss by a day to be cold-iron ready (and holy/demonbane, if you allow that, which is one of the reasons artificers are scary). If you do include that feat, it's not going into my game, but I can see why you might consider it okay. Even if we do toss the feat, I'd still like to keep the ability for the Mindstorm PrC, since an archer can get different material arrows for relatively cheap, which was the reason I came up with the ability in the first place. Of course. I haven't really looked at the Mindstorm, but I agree that it makes sense for archers to have easy access to DR-piercing arrows, since that's one of the key advantages of projectile combat. Also, sorry about my comment at the beginning of my previous post. I wasn't referring specifically to this thread, and I was overreacting a bit.
angellis_ater 01-17-06, 05:10 AM	Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities from the "Special Abilities" list below. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus may not go above +5. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. Defending +1 Keen +1 Ki Focus +1 Lucky +1 Merciful +1 Mighty Cleaving +1 Psychokinetic +1 Sundering +1 Vicious +1 Collision +2 Mindcrusher +2 Parrying +2 Psychokinetic burst +2 Suppression +2 Wounding +2 Bodyfeeder +3 Mindfeeder +3 Soulbreaker +3 Speed +3 Brilliant Energy +4 For each point of Intelligence bonus your character has, he can store an additional special ability above and beyond those in the above list. Each new ability must be "bought" and occupies a number of [Mindblade] feats equal to its bonus. Once you have bought a new ability this choice cannot be changed in any way. You may choose to add a new special ability every time you gain a level (but only if you have enough [Mindblade] feats) For example: You want to have Bane (Humans) and Flaming Burst added to your list of available special abilties. For this you need an Intelligence bonus of +2 (14-15) and atleast three [Mindblade] feats (since the total bonus is +3). Bane (each type is bought seperately) +1 Flaming +1 Frost +1 Ghost Touch +1 Shock +1 Thundering +1 Anarchic +2 * Axiomatic +2 * Disruption +2 Flaming Burst +2 Holy +2 * Icy Burst +2 Shocking Burst +2 Unholy +2 * Coup de Grace +5 Vorpal +5 * = Must have the corresponding alignment to buy and use. Note that these require the Epic Mindblade feat to choose and otherwise follow the same rules as the above Additional abilities. Acidic Blast +6 Fiery Blast +6 Icy Blast +6 Lightning Blast +6 Mighty Disruption +6 Sonic Blast +6 Dread (each type is bought seperately) +7 Anarchic Power +8 * Axiomatic Power +8 * Holy Power +8 * Unholy Power +8 * * = Must have the corresponding alignment to buy and use. "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium character materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization (Mindblade). Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 25 Concentration check. On a successful check, you maintain your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Concentration before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a normal materialize action (usually a move action) on your turn, you can attempt a new Concentration check to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade, Concentration 24 ranks Benefit: Your enhancement bonus can now rise above +5 and you can buy additional special abilities from the Epic Mindblade Abilities list. Your Mindblade counts as Epic for bypassing damage reduction. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can add a material characteristic to your mind blade, which gains all benefits associated with the material (such as piercing Damage Reduction, increased hardness or other abilities). To add or change one of these materials, you must spend 8 hours in concentration meditating, which can be done together with changing special abilities for your mind blade. What materials you can charge your mind blade with depends on your inner focus and is available according to this list: Alchemical silver - Concentration 4 ranks Deepwood - Concentration 6 ranks Cold Iron - Concentration 8 ranks Deep Crystal - Concentration 10 ranks Adamantine - Concentration 12 ranks "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. This counts as a swift action and is an exception to how manifesting your Mindblade normally works. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. You also gain a +2 bonus to Iniative. "] Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade's special abilities. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade loses all its special abilities. "]Your mindblade melee attacks are guided by inner wisdom rather than physical strength. Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You use your Wisdom bonus instead of your strength bonus to determine your attack and damage bonuses while using your mindblade in melee. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may taken once for every 3 ranks you have in Concentration. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental functions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deal 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You must choose as a free action at the beginning of your turn each round whether the enhancement bonus applies to attack or defense. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC25 Concentration check described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonuses on your Shield of Thought and mindblade are not reduced when you manifest both simultaneously. "] Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: Every time you manifest your Shield of Thought, you can choose any +1 special ability from the shield special ability list. This ability lasts as long as you maintain the shield. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you can choose an additional +1 special ability, or any combination of abilities whose cost does not exceed the number of times you've taken this feat. You cannot gain more shield special abilities bonus higher than the special ability bonus on your mindblade. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional pair causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 2 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to your ranks in Concentration. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "]You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape. I've updated Soulblade Warrior and added Material Harmonics to the above list. I've left out the "additional special abilities" feats because they aren't THAT important just yet. Comments on the above? Oh, btw - once this is posted I am reposting it at the top post.
angellis_ater 01-17-06, 08:47 AM	Dang it, I didn't even have time to re-write the update before you guys add alot of stuff in. One thing I'd like to add in the discussion on materials is DrunkenEwoks good point - the character must have come INTO CONTACT with the material before he or she can manifest it through the mind blade. If you wanna restrict access to something for a Mindblader with Material Harmonics, just don't let them fiddle around with a deep crystal. Either way, I think the feat fits pretty well in, but perhaps we should add some prerequisites such as Shape Mindblade and up the Concentration since this problem usually arrives later in the campaign? Mindblade Feats For every [Mindblade] feat you take your connection to your mindblade deepens and your mindblade grows stronger. Your mindblade gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every [Mindblade] feat you take. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities from the "Special Abilities" list below. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus may not go above +5. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your ranks in Concentration (round down). You can reassign the ability or abilities you have added to your mind blade. To do so, you must first spend 8 hours in concentration, after that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected. The enhancement bonus and any special abilities are treated as a supernatural ability. A Fighter may take Form Mindblade or any Mindblade Feat as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats. A Monk treats his Mindblade as a Monk special weapon. Defending +1 Keen +1 Ki Focus +1 Lucky +1 Merciful +1 Mighty Cleaving +1 Psychokinetic +1 Sundering +1 Vicious +1 Collision +2 Mindcrusher +2 Parrying +2 Psychokinetic burst +2 Suppression +2 Wounding +2 Bodyfeeder +3 Mindfeeder +3 Soulbreaker +3 Speed +3 Brilliant Energy +4 "] Prerequisites: Must have a Power point reserve (being Psionic) Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical weapon. As a move action, you can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for you. For instance, a Medium character materializes a Medium mind blade that you can wield as a light weapon, and the blade deals 1d6 points of damage (crit 19-20/×2). Characters who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind blades identical to short swords appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the blade’s damage. The wielder of a mind blade gains the usual benefits to his attack roll and damage roll from a high Strength bonus. The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the mind blade, it dissipates. A mind blade is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. You can use feats such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise in conjunction with the mind blade just as if it were a normal weapon. You can also choose mind blade for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization (Mindblade). Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a character can attempt to sustain your mind blade by making a DC 25 Concentration check. On a successful check, you maintain your mind blade for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Concentration before your need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a normal materialize action (usually a move action) on your turn, you can attempt a new Concentration check to rematerialize your mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect. When you take this feat you gain Concentration as a class skill. You are always proficient with your own mindblade. "]Though extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works just like a special ability you assign to your mindblade, can be changed during the same 8 hour period of meditation, and is lost if you lose your psionic focus. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Deep Crystal - 12 ranks Adamantine - 14 ranks "]You can sheathe your mindblade in dangerous energy. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: Choose one energy type from acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Your mindblade adds a single point of damage of the chosen energy type on each successful attack. You also add the energy special abilities corresponding to the chosen energy type to your list of special abilities. For example, if you choose fire, you add the Flaming and Flaming Burst special abilities to your list of available special abilities. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you must choose a different energy type. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Epic Mindblade, Energy Blade (with the chosen energy type) Benefit: Choose one energy type from acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You add the energy special ability corresponding to the chosen energy type to your list of available special abilities. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you must choose a different energy type. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Two Weapon Fighting, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: When wielding two mindblades, your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 1. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You add the alignment special abilities to your list of available special abilities. Any ability must match one of your alignment components. For example, a Lawful Good character would add the Holy and Axiomatic special abilities to his list, while a Neutral Evil character would add the Unholy special ability to her list. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Favored Enemy class feature, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You add the Bane special ability corresponding to each of your Favored Enemies to your list of available special abilities. In addition, while your mindblade is materialized, it vibrates slightly whenever one of your favored enemies is within 30 feet, alerting you to their presence. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Smite Evil class feature, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You add the Holy special ability to your list of available special abilities, and your mindblade is always treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, whenever you use your smite evil ability, the threat range of your weapon is doubled. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: The damage for your mindblade increases by one step, as if it were one size category larger, without increasing the requirements to wield it. Special: This feat does not stack with any other feat or magic item that provides a similar bonus, such as Improved Natural Attack. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: You add the Ghost Touch, Undead Bane, and Disruption special abilities to your list of available special abilities. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade, Concentration 24 ranks Benefit: Your enhancement bonus can now rise above +5 and your Mindblade counts as Epic for bypassing damage reduction. "] Prerequisites: Form Mind Blade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat, you can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. This counts as a swift action and is an exception to how manifesting your Mindblade normally works. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your experience with the mindblade and training since you were young has made you into a defender of your people and shining example for others training in the art of the mind blade. You can form your mind blade with but a simple thought instead of conscious action and your experience with it makes it much more powerful. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You can form your mind blade as a swift action instead of a move action. You also gain a +2 bonus to Iniative. "] Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior Benefit: You no longer need to maintain psionic focus to keep your mindblade's special abilities. Normal: When you lose focus, your mindblade loses all its special abilities. "]Your mindblade melee attacks are guided by inner wisdom rather than physical strength. Prerequisite: Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You use your Wisdom bonus instead of your strength bonus to determine your attack and damage bonuses while using your mindblade in melee. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "]Your monastic training and psionic focus allows you to apply your combat skills together with your mindblade with the same power and precision as you do with your foot or fist. Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You gain finer control of your mindblade, which allows you to vibrate your mindblade and deal more damage in a strike. As a move action, you can charge your mindblade with this destructive vibration. The next time you successfully hit an opponent with your mindblade, you may chose to expend your charge to have the resonant blade ability deal an extra 1d8 damage to your opponent. This is typeless damage that bypasses all DR. The charge will remain in your mind blade until discharged. If your mindblade dissipates while charged, your mind blade will reform charged. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat, the damage dealt by Resonant Blade increases by 1d8. This feat may taken once for every 3 ranks you have in Concentration. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Resonating Blade, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: You gain the ability to resonate your blade to disrupt the mental functions of your opponent. When discharging your resonant blade ability, you can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (your choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage you gives up, you deal 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. You can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination. You decide which ability score your psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when you charge your mind blade with the Resonant Blade Ability. Mindless creatures are not affected by this ability. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You are now skilled at forming your psionic energy as a physical shield. Just like forming a mind blade (usually a move action), you can create a semisolid shield composed of psychic energy distilled from your own mind. The shield is identical in all ways (except visually) to a light shield (+1 shield bonus to AC, -1 Armor Check penalty) of a size appropriate for you. The shield can be sundered (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, you can simply create another on your next move action. The moment you relinquish your grip on the thoughtshield, it dissipates. The shield has the same enhancement bonus and special abilities as your normal mindblade, unless you materialize both the shield and blade simultaneously, in which case the enhancement bonus on each is reduced by 1. You must choose as a free action at the beginning of your turn each round whether the enhancement bonus applies to attack or defense. You can use feats such as Shield Bash or Improved Shield Bash in conjunction with the thoughtshield just as if it was a normal shield. You can also choose thoughtshield for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Focus (thoughtshield). Powers or spells that upgrade shields and armor can be used on a thoughtshield. In an area where psionic effects are suppressed, your thoughtshield is treated exactly like your mindblade, and can be materialized if you successfully make the DC25 Concentration check described in the Form Mindblade feat. "]When your mind is focused it extends into your thoughtshield, making it even harder and allowing you to almost feel every blow coming towards it, making it easier for you to parry. Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: As long as you are psionically focused, the enhancement bonuses on your Shield of Thought and mindblade are not reduced when you manifest both simultaneously. "] Prerequisite: Shield of Thought Benefit: Every time you manifest your Shield of Thought, you can choose any +1 special ability from the shield special ability list. This ability lasts as long as you maintain the shield. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you can choose an additional +1 special ability, or any combination of abilities whose cost does not exceed the number of times you've taken this feat. You cannot gain more shield special abilities bonus higher than the special ability bonus on your mindblade. "]Having mastered how to change and form your mind blade into different weapons and shielding you aquire the ability to create an armor manifested through your soul, turning away attacks before they hit you. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Shield of Thought, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You gain a Deflection bonus to your AC equal to the enhancement bonus of your mind blade. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: You gain greater control over your mind blade. As a full-round action, you can change your mind blade to replicate any melee or thrown weapon you are proficient with. The weapon functions in all ways (except visually) as the replicated weapon. Alternatively, you can split your mind blade into two identical weapons you are proficient with, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than you would otherwise create with a single mind blade. Special: If you have more than two hands, you can further subdivide your mindblade, but each additional pair causes the total enhancement bonus on each blade to be reduced by 1. (e.g., a thri-kreen wielding 4 identical mindblades would have a total enhancement bonus on each of the four blades 2 lower than the bonus with a single blade.) "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fragment your mind blade to make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to your regular mind blade. When using bladewind, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack. "] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead throw one mindblade at your full base attack bonus at a number of opponents within 30 feet equal to your ranks in Concentration. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack. "]You can store two different mindblade shapes simultaneously. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 18 ranks. Benefit: You can store an additional mindblade of any type that you could normally create. You can assign different special abilities to this mindblade in the same manner as you do with your primary mindblade. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can choose to materialize both the primary and secondary mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time. Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you can store another mindblade shape.
drunkenewok 01-17-06, 12:42 PM	Well, it seems that my latest revision of the mindblade feat tree is too lengthy to fit in a single post. We have a couple options: Split the description across multiple posts, possibly with the existing "balanced" feats in the first post, with new feats under discussion/revision in a second? Or split off the Epic feats and post them separately? I can set up a space on my website for the latest revision (which would allow more efficient hyperlinking), and we can continue to discuss and edit on the boards, and I'll update things when I can. Give up trying to post the entire collection, and just add new feats in separate posts as we come up with them. (Though we should probably post most of the original feats in finalized form...) What I changed: Another pass for spelling/grammar corrections, it's looking pretty clean except for some game terms and composite words (like "mindblade" instead of "mind blade") Reformatted to show the hierarchy relationships, and moved some of the feats around in the order. Added Epic versions of Aligned Blade and Hunter's Blade Contemplating a Paladin-specific feat that would allow him to replicate a Holy Avenger or a Holy Devastator, though I haven't figured out a good way to model the costs with the current system. (yet) Tweaked the Material Harmonics text slightly to make it slightly shorter and to make it more obvious that Inner Focus will allow you to retain the material abilities even if you lose focus. We could increase the prereqs, but given that you aren't getting all that much (Alchemical Silver amounts to 20gp at L3, Darkwood is 50-200gp, Cold Iron is slightly more than 2000gp, and Adamantine is 3000gp), I don't think it's necessary. As it is, you get more "cost" value from it being a mindblade feat than you do from it's actual benefits Though extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works exactly like a weapon special ability, except it has no enhancement bonus cost associated. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Deep Crystal - 12 ranks Adamantine - 14 ranks "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Epic Mindblade, Aligned Blade Benefit: You add the epic alignment special abilities to your list of available special abilities. Any ability must match one of your alignment components. For example, a Lawful Good character would add the Holy Power and Axiomatic Power special abilities to his list, while a Neutral Evil character would add the Unholy Power special ability to her list. "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Hunter's Blade, Epic Mindblade Benefit: You add the Dread epic special ability corresponding to each of your Favored Enemies to your list of available special abilities.
arcaries 01-17-06, 02:23 PM	Every time I have played a Soulknife, my DM keeps throwing undead at me. This makes all the need-to-roll-a-critical mindblade enchancements and Wounding's con drain useless. I don't if anyone has posted about this yet (i'm on a break and can't seem to find the search function for the forum) so i'm sorry if this is a repeat. Is there any thoughts for improving the enhancements?
drunkenewok 01-17-06, 03:13 PM	I don't if anyone has posted about this yet (i'm on a break and can't seem to find the search function for the forum) so i'm sorry if this is a repeat. Is there any thoughts for improving the enhancements?If you'd read the last 7-8 posts (and I'm not complaining, this thread has a ton of info to sift through) you'd probably have found this feat particularly useful: Ghost Hunter Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: You add the Ghost Touch, Undead Bane, and Disruption special abilities to your list of available special abilities. There are also numerous other suggested feats that expand the available special ability options. As for the boards' search function, it's been down for the last 8-9 months, with no sign of returning in the future. You can use Google to do a make-shift site search using the following "site:boards1.wizards.com KEYWORD KEYWORD" (w/o the quotes, and replacing KEYWORD with the words you're seaching for)
Kirech 01-17-06, 09:08 PM	... We could increase the prereqs, but given that you aren't getting all that much (Alchemical Silver amounts to 20gp at L3, Darkwood is 50-200gp, Cold Iron is slightly more than 2000gp, and Adamantine is 3000gp), I don't think it's necessary. As it is, you get more "cost" value from it being a mindblade feat than you do from it's actual benefits Not to harp on it, but I think everyone's taking the ability to change weapon materials too lightly. Except for silversheen, there is no easy way to alter most weapons' material properties. WotC prices that ability as a +2 enhancement (metalline). Since the most powerful material without taking DR into account is adamantine (I'm not sure what this deep crystal stuff is, excuse my ignorance), most players' weapons of choice will be made of that, and will therefore either need a backup weapon for cold iron, or just go without. Now Material Harmonics is not quite as powerful as Metalline, which allows a change as a standard action, but I don't see it as balanced (I could be wrong...). Why not instead make MH an ability feat, which adds Metalline to the list? It seems more congruent with existing mechanics.
angellis_ater 01-18-06, 05:27 AM	I would suggest that we post "finalized" material on your website Drunken (I will be doing the same but the main site is in Swedish it could be slightly hard to navigate) and keep those feats we want to add or change in this forum. I like the revision of Material Harmonics, but Kirech DOES have a point that being able to change it around like that does add some extra edge to it. Either we can add a cost to it (costs a +1 special) but that could be kinda harsh OR we boost the Concentration requirement to around 14-15 and just let the Mindblader change as he wishes between all materials. I do agree with Kirech that it is good and another nice way to "up the cost" for it could be to add a prerequisite in "Shape Mindblade" (makes alot of sense). So to take it you need atleast two feats and Concentration 6 (so available at lvl 3 and a new material THAT YOU KNOW at ever 2 levels). Sounds pretty balanced to me.
drunkenewok 01-18-06, 11:58 AM	Not to harp on it, but I think everyone's taking the ability to change weapon materials too lightly.I'll agree that it's a nice ability, but consider that it's not really any better than the mindblader's ability to change his weapon's special abilities, which is also something that a normal weapon cannot do cheaply, and one of the primary benefits of the soulknife class (or mindblade feat tree). The only case where I could see the ability to change your weapon's material properties as being unbalancing is if A) the adventure is composed primarily of creatures who all share similar/identical DR, and B) the soulknife has advance knowledge of this information, and can prepare appropriately. While I think (A) does happen with some frequency (but hardly all the time), I don't think A and B are both true all that often, maybe in 2-5% of all adventures. In a case where the players know they're travelling to the Abyss, and that most Demons have Cold Iron DR, it would be pretty obvious to switch types. But what happens if they encounter a group of Blood-War raiding Devils who all have silver DR? The mindblader is in exactly the same boat as the "normal" characters. I'll admit that Metalline is worth a +2 enhancement, because you can change your DR type as a standard action, meaning that taking a single round can change your weapon to the most advantageous type. The mindblader has to spend 8 hours in concentration to do the same, meaning he'll be caught with the wrong type of material significantly more often. If it only took him 10 minutes, or an hour, I'd say that it might be worth a +1 enhancement, but 8 full hours seems fair at +0. As for the ability to maintain an adamantine weapon at all times (once you hit L11 and 14 ranks Concentration), how is this different from being able to buy an adamantine weapon? The adamantine price component is +3000gp. At L11, the average character has 66,000gp in wealth, meaning he has to spend less than 5% of his wealth to get an adamantine weapon. The L11 mindblader (assuming he's a human fighter, which is the optimal case) has to spend more than 9% of his feats to get the same ability. And Kirech, here are the stats for Deep Crystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm). For a character with a half-way decent supply of power points, it'll rival adamantine as the material of choice. (In fact, unless the character only has Wild Talent pp, or if the character takes the Improved Sunder track, I'd bet Deep Crystal will be the default material of choice) Now Material Harmonics is not quite as powerful as Metalline, which allows a change as a standard action, but I don't see it as balanced (I could be wrong...). Why not instead make MH an ability feat, which adds Metalline to the list? It seems more congruent with existing mechanics.While I think a feat that allows Metalline as special ability option is a good idea, I'm not really sure it's worth a feat in and of itself. I think the current Material Harmonics is relatively balanced, and brings the mindblader "back to par, and slightly ahead in special circumstances" compared to normal characters. Given that he has to spend a feat to do it, I think it's perfectly acceptable that he should get some extra benefit. I think adding the Metalline ability to the existing Material Harmonics might be too powerful, but adding it as a second-tier feat (Improved Material Harmonics?) might be kosher. If we do that, we could carve off the really popular special materials (adamantine and deep crystal) and put them in the second feat, OR we could weaken the existing Material Harmonics by changing it to only work for bypassing DR, and put the ability to mimic any special abilities (like adamantine bypassing hardness or deep crystal adding damage) into the second feat. (I think the latter sounds pretty cool, personally) So I've taken another look at the way the enhancement bonus scales, and I'm starting to want to tone down the enhancement bonus progression. For the record, I've always been a little concerned about the power scale, I just hadn't managed to find a plausible concrete explanation for my concerns. Before Ra-Tiel left the debate, he posited that a wounding greatsword +2 was something no L5 character should have. I countered with the argument that a L5 character could have a shock greatsword +1, which when coupled with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization would allow him to do almost as much damage as the mindblader. The statistics are sound, which puts the mindblader slightly ahead of a non-mindblader. Still, Ra-Tiel believed strongly enough (even if he didn't have proof to back it up) that I felt it was worth examining from a few other angles, just to see if there was something that could be an issue. So I looked at it from an "average wealth" standpoint, using Table 5-1 on DMG 135: The resource difference is most dramatic at low levels, where a 100% feat expenditure can grant a weapon that is 2-26 times as expensive as any weapon you could actually "afford". It's not until L14 that you actually have a weapon that a normal character of equal level could afford. Assuming that a "normal" character can't (or won't) spend more than 50% of his total wealth on his weapon, the Mindblader has a "better" weapon until L18. Going back to the specific L5 example: A L5 Human Fighter with a shock greatsword +1 and Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization has spent 88.9% of his monetary resources (8000gp out of 9000) and 33.3% of his feat resources (2/6). If we assume that the resources are of relatively equal value, then he's spent 61% of his total resources (money + feats). Any L5 PsyWar (or Human Psion) who takes Form Mindblade and 4 mindblade feats (including Shape Mindblade) can create a wounding greatsword +2, which deals slightly more damage than the shock greatsword above. To do so, he must spend 100% of his feats, and 0% of his monetary resources, or a total of 50% of his total resources. So the non-mindblader is spending 11% more resources to be less effective than the mindblader, and we're not even taking into account the bonuses granted by the other three mindblade feats. Assuming he takes Soulblade Warrior, Throw Mindblade, and Resonant Blade, he gets the benefits of Quick Draw + 1/2 of Improved Initiative, a potential 4.5 extra damage per round, and the ability to ranged attacks. Given that it would take the non-mindblader an extra 20% of his resources to even come close (picking up Quick Draw, 1/2 ImpInit, and a hypothetical watered down Psionic Weapon that doesn't require Wild Talent), I think there might be a problem. (Especially given that the fighter is still vulnerable to sunder, disarm, theft, can't throw his weapon, and is doing less damage) Each mindblade feat grants a special ability approximately equal to a "normal" feat and increases the total bonus on the mindblade, so I'm now of the opinion that we should change the enhancement scale to reduce the efficiency at lower levels. The simplest solution I can think of is capping the enhancement bonus at 1/2 character level, round down, instead of Concentration ranks. Doing so would also eliminate the need to limit the total enhancement bonus to +5, since you couldn't actually get a +6 until at least L22, and we could conceivably remove the Epic Mindblade feat (and replace it with 24+ Concentration ranks wherever it appears as a prereq) It would also reduce the need/tendency to invest heavily in the mindblade tree at low levels, and allow mindblader characters to "branch out" and pick up non-mindblade feats without sacrificing their potential. In terms of resource expenditure, it still allows the mindblader to have a weapon worth more than 50% of his average wealth until L15 (at the earliest), but the total resource expenditure change is much less dramatic over the course of the character's career, since you can never have a weapon worth more than twice what you could buy (except at L2, and then only slightly more). It also doesn't affect the resource expenditure for characters without significant amounts of bonus feats, where it is already more or less balanced. The problem with this fix is that it does hinder the tree where it is already less than optimal: high levels. Though the mindblade feats scale slightly better than other "monetary exchange" feats I've seen, especially at low levels, they cap out at around 20k gp (each) at L20, assuming you invest enough feats to keep the bonus at the cap (which is better than the best existing "monetary exchange" feat, Adamantine Body, which has a monetary value of 16.5k gp). Since the mindblade feats also provide an additional benefit above and beyond their pure monetary value, they are better than other monetary exchange feats, so I'm not sure we need to do any tweaks to the high-end of the scale. Still, given that the feats do taper off in value at high level, it stands to reason that it's not terribly broken to allow the more expensive Epic weapon abilities without severe restrictions (though some restriction is probably warranted). Changing from Concentration ranks will make it cost slightly less to keep up with the feat tree, since you'll only need to have enough Concentration to satisfy the prereqs on the mindblade feats. Thus a character could take many of the low-level feats and still have a reasonable mindblade enhancement bonus without having to max Concentration. A dedicated mindblader will still have to invest heavily in concentration, in order to maintain his blade in AMFs and to qualify for the really sweet feats. I'll readily admit that I'm still digesting all the statistics, and I'm pretty sure I didn't present them in the most clear and concise way possible, so if anyone has questions/concerns, I'll happily take the opportunity to try explaining things better.
angellis_ater 01-18-06, 02:19 PM	So you are suggesting we re-write the requirements on the feats (some/all?) or just the enhancement progression?
drunkenewok 01-18-06, 05:19 PM	So you are suggesting we re-write the requirements on the feats (some/all?) or just the enhancement progression?I think the requirements are probably fine as-is, since they were designed around being available to a given character of the appropriate level. Changing the enhancement progression is the simplest fix I can think of. The other option is to go back to the drawing board and go through the entire feat chain and reduce the power level of any feat that could conceivably be consider "as-good" as a normal feat. Since I don't relish that particular task, and it's much easier to replace the "1/2 your ranks in Concentration" in the first paragraph with "1/2 your character level", I think that's the solution we should use. :) Again, if any of the stats/arguments I presented above don't make sense for whatever reason, it's totally my fault, and I'll happily take another stab at explanation.
angellis_ater 01-18-06, 05:47 PM	No, it was pretty much clear. Just wanted to make sure I understood you. So, we throw out the "½ ranks in Concentration" and replace with "half your character level" (Or should we go ECL?). Sounds good. Can you re-write the entire tree, remove the Epic feat and post it to your website? Final suggestion on Material Harmonics: Add "Shape Mindblade" as a prerequisite. Ups the cost just slightly and seems pretty logical to me (shaping - changing). Do we feel pretty "complete" with the feat tree otherwise or should we look at working in some other "class-related" feats? Should we try our hand at some kind of items that help out with this feat tree? (looking at MaverickWolf's excellent ideas around crystal hilts for example). Second of all I was thinking if it wouldn't be better to make Mindstorm a 5-level PrC if Material Harmonics is a general feat already? We could do a progression which looks somewhat like this: 1 - Mindseye Archery +1, Skirmish +1d6 2 - Mindseye Archery +2, Manifester level +1 3 - Mindseye Archery +3, Skirmish +1d6 +1 AC, Manifester level +1 4 - Mindseye Archery +4, Mindkiller, Manifester level +1 5 - Mindseye Archery +5, Skirmish +2d6 +1 AC, Mindstorm We give it Medium BAB to make up for the more concentrated amount of class abilities and we yank 2 out of 5 manifester levels.
drunkenewok 01-18-06, 06:19 PM	No, it was pretty much clear. Just wanted to make sure I understood you. So, we throw out the "½ ranks in Concentration" and replace with "half your character level" (Or should we go ECL?).Character level would be the more "logical" choice, just because I don't know many abilities that are based on your ECL, other than XP. Still, high LA creatures would take a definite beating if they are capped by their CharLvl (though no more than if they used the SRD soulknife, and basing off CharLvl would count racial HD, which would be a hindrance under the normal system). Sounds good. Can you re-write the entire tree, remove the Epic feat and post it to your website?Will do, though you might have to wait til the weekend before I can find the necessary time. Final suggestion on Material Harmonics: Add "Shape Mindblade" as a prerequisite. Ups the cost just slightly and seems pretty logical to me (shaping - changing).The only problem I have with adding "Shape Mindblade" as a prereq (though I know it was originally my idea) is that Shape Mindblade requires 8 ranks of Concentration (and thus min L5) while the existing Material Harmonics requires 6 ranks of Concentration (and thus min L3). Considering the only material available at that level is alchemical silver (which costs around 100gp to get on a normal weapon), and you don't really get a better material until Cold Iron at L7, I don't see a strong reason to make the character wait to pick up the base abilities. Do we feel pretty "complete" with the feat tree otherwise or should we look at working in some other "class-related" feats? Should we try our hand at some kind of items that help out with this feat tree? (looking at MaverickWolf's excellent ideas around crystal hilts for example).I think we're relatively set, unless someone thinks of a brilliant idea for a special-ability feat, or some class-related feat. The only class I can think of that doesn't have a special feat that probably should is the rogue, though I'm not sure what that ability should be. Maybe a bonus to sneak attack? Something like the short sword of subtlety, assassin's dagger, or rapier of puncturing? Some sort of Bane ability? Second of all I was thinking if it wouldn't be better to make Mindstorm a 5-level PrC if Material Harmonics is a general feat already? We could do a progression which looks somewhat like this: 1 - Mindseye Archery +1, Skirmish +1d6 2 - Mindseye Archery +2, Manifester level +1 3 - Mindseye Archery +3, Skirmish +1d6 +1 AC, Manifester level +1 4 - Mindseye Archery +4, Mindkiller, Manifester level +1 5 - Mindseye Archery +5, Skirmish +2d6 +1 AC, Mindstorm We give it Medium BAB to make up for the more concentrated amount of class abilities and we yank 2 out of 5 manifester levels.While I think it would work, I'll admit that I'm more than a little attached to the Morphic Arrow ability. There's also the fact that Mindkiller (as described above) is currently only available to a Ranger who takes the Hunter's Blade feat. Maybe switch Mindkiller with Morphic Arrow +1? We might even be able to keep the Good BAB, since in most cases the increased Mindseye Archery rate will only serve to give the character some breathing room to take non-mindblade feats. I'll try to post a hypothetical build and run the stats later...
angellis_ater 01-18-06, 08:16 PM	Rogue Mindblade feat Name suggestions: Assassins Sword, Blade of Silence, Blade of Night Name [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, sneak attack class ability Benefit: For every Mindblade feat you have, you add 1 point of damage to your sneak attacks. You also gain the "Coup de Grace" special ability. Mindstorm PrC We could up the BAB to Fighter-class and replace Mindkiller, its not an ability I feel that attached to. All in all, a good and effective PrC which does exactly what we want it to. Also works very well with Material Harmonics (which should be a prereq) and gives good Synergy. Character Levels instead of Conc I'd be happy to go with Character Level if that does include Racial HD, but wouldn't it be easier to just say ½HD? Makes it easier for everyone to understand and read. More class related feats Barbarian - we could add Vorpal and some bonus when raging? Bard - we could add Dancing while singing and perhaps let Dancing extend for as long as the Bard is using Perform? Wilder - we could add something like Psibane or Manifester and give her an additional +1 morale bonus on attacks with the Mindblade when surging?
starwed 01-18-06, 08:39 PM	For every Mindblade feat you have, you add 1 point of damage to your sneak attacks. You also gain the "Coup de Grace" special ability. Did you mean for this to only apply to the mindblade's attacks? Otherwise it seems a bit weird.
angellis_ater 01-18-06, 09:11 PM	Did you mean for this to only apply to the mindblade's attacks? Otherwise it seems a bit weird. Yes, very correctly spotted. It should read something like "For every sneak attack with your Mindblade you do 1 more damage for every [Mindblade] feat you possess." - nice catch!
Kirech 01-19-06, 12:57 AM	As for the ability to maintain an adamantine weapon at all times (once you hit L11 and 14 ranks Concentration), how is this different from being able to buy an adamantine weapon? I think you misunderstood me. I was using a character with a heavily magical adamantine weapon as a sort of base case for someone without the feat chain. Anyways, it's not important. I like the idea of splitting up special materials into two feats, since it eases my concerns about giving the bladethinker too much for too little. I think, if you go that way, it may be best to split it horizontally (higher quality materials separated from lower) rather than vertically (DR piercing separated from other qualities), since most people would be after DR piercing to begin with. I do like tying the bonuses to CL. +2 weapons at lv.1 is a little scary. I think it should be CL and not HD, by the way, since most feats which are tied to character progression are tied to CL, which is more of an indication of personal growth and experience than HD. For a roguish feat, how about making the blade invisible, and deriving some sort of sneaky advantage from it? Allow a (sleight of hand || bluff) check to attack someone without it being apparrent that you are the one doing it. How cool would it be for an assassin to casually insert himself into a fancy party, walk by the host, and just as casually walk out the door while people start to realize that the life of the party is dead? Combine with knife to the soul for 'character assassination'. Perhaps a better mechanic could be suggested, but what do you think of this 'blade of secret intent'? As for Angelis_Ater's suggestion for a bard ability, I just don't know. I'd have to see something more specific, since you're talking about giving the bard's weapon dancing, which is a +3 ability, and extending the duration of that even more. If that is in addition to the min(CL/2, mb_feats) worth of enhancements, then that's way too powerful. If it costs the +3 but only activates while singing, it may be either too little, or just right. Similarly with the Barb. ability. I'd need to see more. I like how the feat chain is progressing. It's getting to where I would put it into my game as written. Too bad my game is being constructed for an unknown future group to be run 'someday'. Moving cross-country is a pain that way.
angellis_ater 01-19-06, 06:02 AM	If we do split up Material Harmonics into two feats, each should come with some additional benefit if you ask little me. Material Harmonics could perhaps give access to Alchemical Silver, Cold Iron, Deepwood, letting the character change it just as a special ability. In addition, perhaps he could get a +4 enhancement bonus to Concentration tests to retain his Mindblade in an AMF or have it be a [Psionic] feat but add in that its power is retained no matter what? Improved Material Harmonics would then give access to Adamantine and Deep Crystal, but also letting the character change it as a standard action. Looking at the class-related feats I'll give a shot at the following: Blade of Silence [Mindblade, Psionic] Your blade strikes in utter silence and with a precision only attainable by those whose weapon is as much apart of the mind as the body. When both work together, the results are deadly. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, sneak attack class ability, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: When using sneak attack with your mindblade, you do 1 additional damage per [Mindblade] feat you possess. You also add "Coup de Grace" as a special ability on your list of available special abilities for your mindblade. Raging Blade [Mindblade, Psionic] Your rage swallows all other emotions, consuming your mind in a red haze of death and destruction. This rage extends into your mindblade, making it fiercly sharp, just like your emotional state. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, rage or frenzy class ability, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: When ranging, your mindblades threatrange increases by one (From 20 to 19-20 or from 19-20 to 18-20). You also add "Vorpal" as a special ability on your list of available special abilities for your mindblade. Song and Dance [Mindblade, Psionic] Your song makes people, and swords, dance to your tune and the magic in your voice is the magic of your mind. As songs weave and twist, so does your mindblade, dancing out of your hand. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, bardic music, Concentration 4 ranks Benefit: You add "Dancing" as a special ability on your list of available special abilities for your mindblade. While dancing your mindblade is treated as if you were holding it (it doesn't dissipate and you cannot manifest additional blades). If your mindblade has "Dancing" as a special ability and you activate it while using your bardic music ability, it will continue to dance until you stop performing. --- All of the above ADD a choice to the Special Ability list, which must be taken for the available enhancement bonus (½ Character Level). On the topic of Character Level vs HD its the same thing. A Monstrous Humanoid with 4 HD and 1 level of Barbarian has a Character Level of 5, just like a Monstrous Humanoid with 2 HD, +9 Level Adjustment and 3 levels of Barbarian. It was just a matter of wording and trying to reduce the number of words.
Kirech 01-19-06, 09:46 AM	On the topic of Character Level vs HD its the same thing. A Monstrous Humanoid with 4 HD and 1 level of Barbarian has a Character Level of 5, just like a Monstrous Humanoid with 2 HD, +9 Level Adjustment and 3 levels of Barbarian. It was just a matter of wording and trying to reduce the number of words. My mistake. Those class feats look good. I'd write more, but I'm off to work.
drunkenewok 01-19-06, 01:48 PM	I do like tying the bonuses to CL. +2 weapons at lv.1 is a little scary.Just to reiterate, the damage/hit from a +2 mindblade at L1 is almost completely comparable to the damage dealt by the better martial weapons. The same holds true at every level I've run a test. It's not the fact that the weapon itself is "too good", but rather that getting both the weapon enhancement AND the mindblade feat bonuses are too good. I'm tempted to stick with Character Level as the terminology, even though it is equivalent to HD, and HD is shorter. It's primarily because Character Level is much more commonly used when describing PC-based abilities, while HD is more common with monsters. Since this is meant as a PC-playable option, I'm inclined to stick with the general custom. As for the class-based feats, they all look fine from a balance perspective. I would prefer to change the Raging Blade (maybe renamed to Fury's Edge, or Edge of Fury?) to work like Improved Critical, where it doubles the threat range, instead of a one-point increase. That keeps the existing weapon balance (where high-range weapons have a low multiplier, and vice-versa). As written, Raging Blade is much better for the high multiplier weapons (e.g. scythe or greataxe). It's also a personal opinion, but I think all increases to threat range should stack. (So a L12 raging barbarian with a keen shocking burst greataxe +3 and the ImpCrit and Raging Blade feats would threaten on a 18-20, and if he changes it to a falchion, would threaten on a 12-20.) It might be worth noting that a single-class Barbarian or Rogue will never get access to the special ability granted by their class-specific feat. They simply don't get enough feats to add a +5 special ability. The Bard also gets no benefit from his class-specific feat until at least L10 (because you can't add a +3 special ability until your total enhancement bonus is at least +5), and a single-class bard won't be able to use it until L15 (if he's Human or from a psionic race) or L18 (if he's neither human nor psionic).
angellis_ater 01-19-06, 06:36 PM	I was wondering if we should think about feats for the "new" core classes from the Complete Series as well or should we just leave that behind? My suggestion for the Material Harmonics feats: Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Though extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works exactly like a weapon special ability, except it has no enhancement bonus cost associated. You do not loose Material Harmonics in an Antimagic Field as normal. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Improved Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Though extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. With increased experience you can master new materials and change faster. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 10 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. You can change the material your weapon is harmonic with as a standard action and no longer takes 8 hours to change. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Adamantine - 12 ranks Deep Crystal - 14 ranks
Kirech 01-19-06, 07:52 PM	It might be worth noting that a single-class Barbarian or Rogue will never get access to the special ability granted by their class-specific feat. They simply don't get enough feats to add a +5 special ability. The Bard also gets no benefit from his class-specific feat until at least L10 (because you can't add a +3 special ability until your total enhancement bonus is at least +5), and a single-class bard won't be able to use it until L15 (if he's Human or from a psionic race) or L18 (if he's neither human nor psionic). You've got a point. With that in mind, maybe it would be best to keep down the number of class-related feats. Fighter and Monk feats make sense, since they're basically the 'target audience' for these feats, and the Ranger one just works really well, but people putting together Bards, Barbs, and Rogues probably won't consider this chain unless they have something very specific in mind already. Incidentally, I was just trying to picture a Ranger with some of this feat chain, and it actually seems pretty cool. "How about the power to kill a yak, from 200 yards away, WITH MIND BULLETS?! "That's telekinesis, Kyle."[/TANGENT] Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Through extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate certain special materials you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works exactly like a weapon special ability, except it has no enhancement bonus cost associated, and you do not lose Material Harmonics in an Antimagic Field as normal. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: * Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks * Darkwood - 8 ranks * Cold Iron - 10 ranks Edited for clarity and spelling, but otherwise great.
angellis_ater 01-20-06, 02:58 AM	Class-based feats: Edge of Fury sounds like a good name and considering that he won't be looking at getting that Vorpal ability anytime soon I think that Improved Critical sounds pretty ok. I seem to remember that Rogues get alot of free feats at higher levels making their class-feat a viable option for later levels and a good choice in the beginning (considering that +1 damage for every d6 of sneak attack quickly mounts up for those Rogues). It DOES seem that the Bard feat doesn't give any real benefit at first level, so does anyone have any good suggestions? Perhaps his morale bonus from bardic music increases by one (for him only) when using the Mindblade? That is another effective +1 to hit, +1 to damage - not bad! (Meaning a Bard at lvl2 could potentially get +3 morale bonus from his bardic music - dangerous!) I feel that the Mindblade feats would be generally used by other classes as a little flavor - like getting Form Mindblade and 1-2 Mindblade feats (preferably one being the class-one) to expand on a psionic race's psychic abilities. So a Barbarian might get Form Mindblade, Edge of Fury and Shape Mindblade - going with a +1 flaming (keen) greataxe isn't all bad. Material Harmonics The rewrite looks good, thanks for checking it for errors! :-) Can we agree on the two feats then?
rampant 01-20-06, 05:18 AM	Maybe for the class related ones we should aim for class so much as a certain ability? example rogue has sneak attack ninja has sudden strike maybe the feat should cover both and not be specific to the class barbarian - sohei (have that rage/frenzy thing) it just makes more sense and opens this up more to prestigee class builds for instance this Feat for the barbarian also would work well with the dwarven defender or even the bloody Primeval
angellis_ater 01-20-06, 08:12 AM	My spontaneous idea would be this: We use whats in the SRD and when we are finished we leave a couple of suggestions how you could make those feats work with other classes. For example, Blade of Silence could work for sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish and any other ability generally based around speed and stealth. So we could suggest that if a DM wants to use other classes than the SRD that he could make the above changes. -- Mindstorm PrC The Mindstorm has chosen a different path than most who master the mind blade and its associated abilities. Through the use of a personalized crystal handle they create bows of pure energy launching their mind blades as arrows and bolts. They focus on speed and agility, striking their enemies with arrows which pierce almost any defense. 1 - Mindseye Archery +1, Skirmish +1d6 2 - Mindseye Archery +2, Manifester level +1, Morphic Arrow I 3 - Mindseye Archery +3, Skirmish +1d6 +1AC, Manifester level +1 4 - Mindseye Archery +4, Manifester level +1, Morphic Arrow II 5 - Mindseye Archery +5, Skirmish +2d6 +1AC, Mindstorm Mindseye Archery: First of all Mindseye Archery allows you to form an energized bow (identical to a composite longbow except visually) allowing you to fire mindblade arrows (which otherwise work exactly as normal mind blades) with a range increment of 110 feet and a base damage of 1d8. Second of all, each level of Mindstorm counts as a [Mindblade] feat for calculating enhancement bonuses and other effects. Skirmish: To gain the above bonus, the Mindstorm must move atleast 10 feet each round. Morphic Arrow: At 2nd level the Mindstorm gains the "Material Harmonics" feat. At 4th level, the Mindstorm gains the "Improved Material Harmonics" feat. Mindstorm: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fire one mindblade arrow at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 110 feet. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack.
drunkenewok 01-20-06, 11:53 AM	Edge of Fury sounds like a good name and considering that he won't be looking at getting that Vorpal ability anytime soon I think that Improved Critical sounds pretty ok.I don't think doubling the threat range only during Rage is really overwhelming, and it is possible for a barbarian to get enough mindblade feats to actually use Vorpal: by multiclassing. Since most Barbarian builds I know of typically only take the first level, it's only the single-class Barbarians who don't get as much out of the feat. And I'm not saying that it's a good idea to remove the feat, since it does give an interesting flavorful abilitiy even if you can't ever add the special ability to your weapon. I seem to remember that Rogues get alot of free feats at higher levels making their class-feat a viable option for later levelsTrue, a L19 rogue who is either human or from a naturally psionic race and spends every single one of his feats and "special ability" class features on bonus feats can get a +10 weapon, and thus can utilize the Coup de Grace ability. Of course, that means sacrificing all the other special abilities (Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, Opportunist Strike), so I don't know how common it will be. and a good choice in the beginning (considering that +1 damage for every d6 of sneak attack quickly mounts up for those Rogues).Okay, just to make sure I'm understanding the intended feat correctly, you get +1 damage per d6 of sneak attack per Mindblade feat? Or is it +1 damage per d6 of sneak attack? Or +1 damage per mindblade feat? If it's the first option, the L19 rogue above who spends all his feats on mindblade feats will do base weapon damage plus 10d6 + 100 (!) damage on every sneak attack. If it's the second, a L20 rogue can get base damage + 10d6 + 10 at the cost of 2 feats (Form Mindblade and Blade of Silence), though his base damage probably wouldn't be the best. If it's the third, a single-level dip into rogue (or any other class that grants sneak attack) could gain a dedicated pre-epic mindblader a sneak attack of base damage + 1d6 + 20. I definitely think the first option is unbalanced, but either of the other options seem to work okay. The second option would obviously favor classes who focus on their sneak attack damage, while the latter favors those who have a little (or a lot of) sneak attack damage but really focus on the mindblade tree. It just depends on which strategy you think should be rewarded. It DOES seem that the Bard feat doesn't give any real benefit at first level, so does anyone have any good suggestions?While the increased self-only morale bonus could work, I don't think it fits the flavor of bard as a support character. Another possible option would be to increase the Bard's effective level for the Bardic Music ability by 2. That would make the DC on Suggestion attempts go up by one, and would also allow the Bard to multiclass into a non-bardic music class and still improve some of his abilities. (e.g. a Bard 2/Fighter 2 with maxed Perform would have the Bardic Music abilities of a Bard 4). While I don't think these feats would be high on every Bard/Barb/Rogue's list, I do think they are useful, flavorful additions. They probably aren't necessary to the feat tree, but it definitely gives any potential adopters some extra ideas. It's just my personal preference, but I still think that the vertical split between Material Harmonics and Improved Material Harmonics is better. i.e., that Material Harmonics should grant access to all material types at increasing levels of Concentration ranks for the purpose of bypassing DR only, while Improved Material Harmonics adds the ability to emulate special abilities (like adamantine's bypass hardness and deep crystal's bonus damage) and the Metalline special ability. The current version of Material Harmonics doesn't really seem worth taking unless you also plan to take Improved Material Harmonics, since there are several DR types you just can't get with the base feat. I also have this feeling that the current Improved Material Harmonics is a touch too good, given that it lets you change as a standard action without the usual Metalline +2 enhancement cost. As it stands, I just have the feeling that Material Harmonics is an awfully sub-par choice, while Improved Material Harmonics is an excellent choice, and I think the vertical split would go a long way toward making both feats closer to the "normal" feat power level. Of course if everyone else likes it as currently written, I'll shut up and just house-rule it for my own games. :) Morphic Arrow: At 2nd level the Mindstorm gains the "Material Harmonics" feat. At 4th level, the Mindstorm gains the "Improved Material Harmonics" feat.This isn't exactly what I had in mind for adding back Morphic Arrow. The original idea was to voluntarily give up +1 worth of special abilites for the mindblade and the mindbow. Then, when creating arrows for the mindbow, you could take a swift action every round to add any +1 special ability that you have access to. It basically mimics the normal archer's ability to have more than one type of arrow available. Round 1: Fire off a bunch of flaming arrows at the frost demon, Round 2: Fire a couple shock arrows at the fire-immune balor, Round 3: Switch to construct bane arrows to take out the golem, Round 4: Switch to seeking arrows against the displacer beast. You can switch only once per round, so you'll still have some cases where you might have the wrong ability, and since it's limited to +1 bonus, you can't get any super-awesome special abilities. Since the material changes are counted as a special ability with zero cost, you could change them once per round too, assuming you had the feat(s). It's also worth pointing out that as currently written, the Mindstorm PrC would be an awesome choice for any mindblader who doesn't have a ton of feats lying around, even if they have almost no interest in ranged combat. With the addition of the Harmonics feats, the class grants a total of +7 to your mindblade enhancement bonus. Since it only requires two non-mindblade feats as prereqs (last I checked), it would be a net +5 bonus to the mindblade, 3 MLs, Skirmish, and good BAB. A melee-based Barbarian, for example, could burn a pair of feats on Point Blank and Precise Shot for when he needs to hurl that greataxe at someone, keep his BAB high and get access to the +10 weapon. And he need never use any of the other class abilities. A melee-based PsyWar would get even more with the MLs. Mindstorm: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead fire one mindblade arrow at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 110 feet. Regardless of the number of attacks you make, you only provoke attacks of opportunity as though you made a single ranged attack.It's probably just a personal pet peeve, but I don't like imposing arbitrary limits when they don't really have to be there. I'd suggest changing the 110 foot range to "within one range increment". That would give a PC incentive to use the synergy provided by the distance special ability and/or the Far Shot feat to get an even better ability. Such a character would be sacrificing a feat and a +1 bonus to get make an attack against every enemy within 330 feet. If we do go with the extreme range I'd highly suggest limiting it to 1/day. Maybe 3/day or Wis bonus per day if you're feeling generous, but either could make the PrC too good. If we go back to the standard action and limited at 30 ft. range (with Bladestorm synergizing to increase range to full bow range), allowing more uses per day is probably kosher. I'm also still partial to the 10-level PrC, since I think this would be very worth extending and pursuing into the Epic Levels (which you can't do by RAW with a 3 or 5-level PrC), but the 5-level works too.
angellis_ater 01-20-06, 04:00 PM	I intended for the Rogue-feat to do SNEAK + #[Mindblade] damage (ie if you have sneak +2d6 and 3 [Mindblade] feats you get 2d6+3 in each sneaky attack). I was thinking ahead of myself and wrote d6 instead of feat. -- Well, the problem for ME would be that the Improved version wouldn't feel very worthwhile. So, you get a "small" bonus for each material (yeah, ignoring hardness and pp-damageboosting aren't that great considering the cost) and if you sacrifice a +2 bonus you can change them as a standard action. Doesn't really feel good enough for me (but to be honest I think Metalline is overpriced at +2). Consider that Ghost Hunter gives you three new abilities for one feat. I'd rather tone up MH and tone down IMH instead of using the suggested ability-divider. So, what could make Material Harmonics a better feat? When it comes to Improved Material Harmonics I suggest we simply let the use change it as a full round action instead, or that he can choose 2 material as a special ability with a cost of +0 which he can interchange between freely? -- Ok, I misunderstood you there for a second on Morphic Arrow. If that is the case and considering your excellent point about the general usefulness for mindbladers I am also partial to moving to a 10-level progression. 1 - Mindseye Archery +1, Skirmish +1d6 2 - Material Harmonics, Manifester level +1 3 - Mindseye Archery +2, Manifester level +1 4 - Skirmish +1d6 +1AC, Morphic Arrow +1 5 - Mindseye Archery +3, Manifester level +1 6 - Improved Material Harmonics, Manifester level +1 7 - Mindseye Archery +4, Skirmish +2d6 +1AC 8 - Morphic Arrow +2, Manifester level +1 9 - Mindseye Archery +5, Manifester level +1 10 - Skirmish +2d6 +2AC, Mindstorm If we count the increase in manifester level as a bonus they get two bonuses every level. We've got Material Harmonics in there but they could be replaced and we go with your text for Mindstorm. We keep full BAB and d8 for Hit Die while giving out 4+Int Mod skill points. Prerequisites should probably stay the same.
Kirech 01-20-06, 08:49 PM	The current version of Material Harmonics doesn't really seem worth taking unless you also plan to take Improved Material Harmonics, since there are several DR types you just can't get with the base feat. I also have this feeling that the current Improved Material Harmonics is a touch too good, given that it lets you change as a standard action without the usual Metalline +2 enhancement cost.Two main reasons I disagree. First, it is generally true that feats get more powerful the deeper into a tree you have to go to get them (the TWF chain doesn't work like this, but that's another discussion entirely). Few would take Dodge if not for the groovy feats that have it as a prerequisite. If IMH is better/more desirable than MH, then I figure it's balanced in that off-balance sort of way feat chains work. Second, I find that silver and cold iron cover a lot of the bases by themselves. Demons, devils, some undead, lycanthropes, fey. Some games that's all the DR you encounter. An undead-slaying Ranger just grabs Form Mindblade, Ghost Hunter, Hunter's Blade, and Material Harmonics and they're all set. Still, I am a little unsure about the second feat changing materials as a standard action. I don't think a full round action would be asking too little of the character, though. It may seem odd, since I was all for eliminating MH entirely, that I would be on this side of allowing a change within a round, but I figure if the feat's going in anyway, having the most powerful stuff hiding behind another feat keeps things sane.
angellis_ater 01-21-06, 04:56 AM	So, can we all agree on the following? If a suggestion would be made I think we lower the first feat to Concentration 4-6-8 and keep the second one at 12-14. Together with making it a full-round action instead of a standard action we also get a basic feat which is a little easier to enter into and get the benefits from. Ergo - better MH, a little weaker IMH. Howsabout it? Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Through extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate certain special materials you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. This ability works exactly like a weapon special ability, except it has no enhancement bonus cost associated, and you do not lose Material Harmonics in an Antimagic Field as normal. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Improved Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Through extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. With increased experience you can master new materials and change faster. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: You can emulate any special material you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for all purposes. You can change the material your weapon is harmonic with as full round action and no longer takes 8 hours to change. Each special material requires a certain degree of concentration to maintain: Adamantine - 12 ranks Deep Crystal - 14 ranks
angellis_ater 01-22-06, 07:24 PM	No comments?
Kirech 01-23-06, 12:07 AM	Sorry. It looks all right. I wonder, since it's now two feats, if the Concentration requirement for each material is entirely necessary. We could just leave it with the ranks as feat prerequisites and nothing else. I could be off base, but that seems reasonable to me, since I'm for less complications/wrinkles/extra words. I think this thing is in a good place, and I'm in favor of freezing development until someone actually tries this stuff out in a game (maybe a one-shot or two). I'm lucky if I can play every other week, and my DM is kind of green, so I can't volunteer. Anyone else looking to put this in a game soon?
rampant 01-23-06, 01:48 AM	well there is the metalline enhancement i think its in underdark maybe we should look at that to settle the material harmonics issue
angellis_ater 01-23-06, 03:48 AM	Kirech: I am already testing it out through one of my Psion players in my new campaign. She chose Mindblade as one of her starting feats and considering they are off to explore a coastline for their Church and King I am sure it'll come in handy. Stay tuned, I'll post reports as they come in! :-) After thinking it over and looking at the feats I think you might have a good point there. Giving out access to silver and cold iron at level 3 isn't all that overpowered and they both require that you've actually come into contact with the different materials to manifest them. I vote with Kirech, that remove the Concentration tables, for an easier and better-looking feat! Rampant: I think the Metalline special ability is the basis for most of the discussion around Material Harmonics already. Besides, I am reluctant to add an entire feat for a special ability found in a setting specific book somewhere.
drunkenewok 01-23-06, 04:24 PM	So I'm still not really convinced that the status-quo is the best way to handle the feat(s), so I'll make one more attempt to explain my reasoning, present the feats I plan to use, and leave it at that. If nobody likes my system, then it'll just survive in my house-rules. Material Harmonics [Mindblade, Psionic] Through extensive practice, you have learned to tune your mindblade to emulate the effects of different materials. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: You can emulate certain special materials you have come in contact with, and your mindblade is treated as though it were made of the chosen material for the purpose of bypassing Damage Reduction. You can only emulate one material at a time. This ability works exactly like a weapon special ability, except it has no enhancement bonus cost associated. Each special material requires a certain minimum degree of concentration to maintain: Alchemical Silver - 6 ranks Darkwood - 8 ranks Cold Iron - 10 ranks Deep Crystal - 12 ranks Adamantine - 14 ranks Special: The DM can choose to add additional campaign-specific special materials to this list. Improved Material Harmonics [Mindblade] Your skills at emulating materials improve to the point where your blade is indistinguishable from the real thing. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Material Harmonics, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: When you emulate a material with Material Harmonics, your weapon is now considered made of that material for all purposes, and the material benefits are not lost in an Null Psionics Field. You can also change the material type by spending 1 full minute in concentration. If you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + minimum ranks required to emulate the material you are changing to) you can change the material type as a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Reasons I like mine better: Material Harmonics doesn't arbitrarily limit which materials you can emulate, just makes it harder/easier, and limits the extent to which you can emulate a material Adding Adamantine to MH only adds 5 SRD creatures that you can bypass DR: Golems. (so if it's balanced without adamantine, it's probably balanced with it) MH is worth taking on its own, since you can theoretically overcome any type of material-based DR if your Concentration is high enough, and it's not too powerful, cause you can't get the extra abilities associated with any material The reason for moving adamantine and deep crystal to the second-tier feat is almost entirely due to their special abilities, rather than their ability to bypass DR, thus it makes more sense to divide the feats based on that ability IMH is worth taking if you like the Deep Crystal abilities or if you plan to use adamantine for sunder attempts, PLUS it lets you change more often, without making it too easy to do in-combat I could theoretically eliminate the Conc ranks requirement in MH, and change the Conc DC in IMH to 30 if I/we feel the need to make things simpler If y'all do decide to stick with the existing versions, I'd recommend the following changes: Remove the [Psionic] descriptor from both feats - if it's meant to work in an AMF, it should not be psionic Add Material Harmonics as a prereq for Improved Material Harmonics (unless you want people to only take the second one) I'd add some sort of extra limit to make switching materials in combat more difficult - at least make it provoke an AoO or require a Concentration check if you keep it to 1 full-round action or less. Another option would be to increase the special ability cost to +1 in order to allow it to change as a standard/full-round action (with the option to leave the cost at +0, and still require 8 hours to change) Yet another option would be to have IMH add the Metalline ability to the available list, and just require the "free" special ability change always take 8 hours Removing the Concentration prereqs for individual material types should work without further revision
Kirech 01-23-06, 08:45 PM	Looking at it that way, and rethinking things, I'm inclined to agree. The mechanic does seem a bit less arbitrary that way. The only issue I can think of is one of realism (and I hope you understand what I mean by 'realism' when referring to a physical sword formed of mental energy), since the reason that adamantine hurts Golems is the same reason that it hurts objects. D&D tends to favor simplicity over realism anyway, so that's a weak argument. Add Material Harmonics as a prereq for Improved Material Harmonics (unless you want people to only take the second one)Hmm...can't speak for anyone else, but I just assumed it was there and didn't look at the prereqs too closely. My bad. Especially embarassing after nitpicking grammar and spelling on the other feat. I do think that the horizontally split version of MH is worth taking on its own, for previously stated reasons. One thing that needs to be added to your feat is either the stipulation that Alchemical Silver gives a -1 damage penalty in MH as normal, or that it doesn't give a penalty in IMH. Otherwise, silver is worse after taking the second feat. Stay tuned, I'll post reports as they come in! :-)I look forward to it. I seem to keep reversing my opinion. There's a fine line between keeping an open mind and (*), and I'm having trouble walking it. (*) - Does anyone know of a dictionary with reverse look-up? I can't think of a word that means 'to go back and forth on an issue', since I found out that 'equivocation' and 'waffling' don't mean what I thought they meant.
drunkenewok 01-23-06, 11:14 PM	Hmm...can't speak for anyone else, but I just assumed it was there and didn't look at the prereqs too closely. My bad. Especially embarassing after nitpicking grammar and spelling on the other feat.Honestly, if I hadn't have used copy/paste and read it over three times, I'd have missed it myself. :D I do think that the horizontally split version of MH is worth taking on its own, for previously stated reasons.I'll agree it's worth it, but I don't really see a compelling reason to exclude materials, other than avoiding the special abilities. One thing that needs to be added to your feat is either the stipulation that Alchemical Silver gives a -1 damage penalty in MH as normal, or that it doesn't give a penalty in IMH. Otherwise, silver is worse after taking the second feat.A good point, and one I've been trying to find an elegant way of presenting. I'm tempted to treat it as never giving the penalty, but I don't think it makes a big difference. I seem to keep reversing my opinion. There's a fine line between keeping an open mind and (*), and I'm having trouble walking it.Maybe "caprice", "inconstancy", "contrariety", "fickle", "perversity", "mercurial", "volatility", "indecision"? Sadly, I don't know a good reverse-lookup online, though a thesaurus can occasionally be useful in that regard.
Kirech 01-24-06, 12:42 AM	Maybe "caprice", "inconstancy", "contrariety", "fickle", "perversity", "mercurial", "volatility", "indecision"? Sadly, I don't know a good reverse-lookup online, though a thesaurus can occasionally be useful in that regard.I think I'll go with 'indecision'. ...although, 'caprice' is a spiffy word. ;-) EDIT: Nah, 'indecision' it is. Seriously, though, I'm not going to be able to help/hinder much this week, so don't expect me.
angellis_ater 01-24-06, 03:58 AM	Ok - I will have to agree DrunkenEwok, from many points your version does seems better and I see a good reason why to take MH and a good reason to take IMH as well, meaning they are atleast pretty well balanced. So, my suggestion: Go with DrunkenEwoks versions and then we put together a 1.0 version of the entire feat tree and post it to a website (such as DE's) so that we get it more or less finalized and then we can polish it. Right now I don't want to add more feats, rather make sure the ones we have work well. For example, perhaps we should revisit the class-based Mindblade feats and see if we can come up with something better for them?
angellis_ater 01-26-06, 08:12 PM	If we feel fine with the Feat tree I'll do my best to complete a full move over to my website although it'll take some time to format correctly. On the Mindstorm PrC - I feel we are pretty much done with it and we just need to write it up once and for all. New idea: Looking through the Minds Eye articles a thought struck me regarding the idea of a Mindblade Weapon Master, based of the Psychic Weapon Master article. Does it sound interesting?
Ra-Tiel 01-27-06, 05:26 AM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: [...] New idea: Looking through the Minds Eye articles a thought struck me regarding the idea of a Mindblade Weapon Master, based of the Psychic Weapon Master article. Does it sound interesting? Why? With Improved Material Harmonics a soulknife fighter can already qualify for Psychic Weapon Master. He just needs to have his mindblade carry the properties of Deep Crystal all times and be done with it. Something like PsW2/Ftr2/Rgr1/Sly4 should get the trick done, and most likely you can get a bit more out of it with a different progression. I'm just a bit lazy now. :P === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-27-06, 06:39 AM	Hi and welcome back Ra-Tiel. Might I suggest taking a look further back in the thread to witness us giving up and going with your idea of limiting enhancement by class? :-) Anyhow - yeah he can become a PWM, but one of the main abilities is to expend XP to create a more powerful weapon, an ability which is completely useless with a mind blade. I was thinking of rewriting it with something else instead, since it requires a "standard deep crystal weapon without magic or psionic enhancements" I was thinking of adding something like instead of getting a +1 enhancement they can buy a [Mindblade] feat for the cost indicated. So, the first would cost 100xp, the 2nd 400 xp and so forth and a line about a PWM not being able to awaken more of her Mindblade than one feat per level. The problems I have with this is either dipping (one Mindblade feat for 100 xp?) or that the class is already pretty useful for a Mindblader if it hadn't been for a massive 9 feats required and a manifesting requirement of 3rd lvl (meaning a minimum of PsyWar7 or Psi5). So the "best" build to achieve these 9 feats and BAB would be: Human Psion 5 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Fighter 2 (or PsyWar 8/ Fighter 2) making him decidedly sub-optimal. Some of those feats make good choice for a non-Mindblader (like Psionic Weapon) so I would suggest a few changes for a "Mindblade Master" PrC. In general we can keep most class abilities and the manifester levels but we remove and reshape some prerequisites and add an ability allowing him to buy [Mindblade] feats at 1000xp for each level he has (so @ Mindblade Master 1 he can spend 1000xp and get a feat, @ level 5 he can spend 5000xp to gain one feat) or something like that. I will return shortly with a layout.
angellis_ater 01-27-06, 07:10 AM	Suggested layout for the MWM PrC: Mindblade Weaponmaster PrC Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Psionic Dodge, Weapon Focus: Mindblade, Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade Base Attack: +5 Manifesting Level: 5th and above Psionic Damage: After a Mindblade weapon master scores a hit with her mindblade, do not roll dice to determine damage. Instead, figure the normal maximum damage (not a critical hit) the weapon master can inflict and do that much damage to the target. For example, a weapon master uses a mindblade shaped as a longsword, has a base attack bonus of +6, and possesses a Strength of 17. A longsword does 1d8 damage, so its maximum damage is 8 points. Her Strength modifier is +3, so add that for a total of 11. When the weapon master makes a successful critical hit, only the base damage from the weapon is maximized; roll normally for the extra damage from the critical hit. A weapon master can use this ability for free a number of times per day equal to her weapon master level, though additional uses of this ability cost 3 power points each. Mindblade Mastery: At first level and every two levels after that (3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th) the Mindblade Weaponmaster can buy a [Mindblade] feat for the cost of 500xp per class level. Increased Multiplier: Determine the standard critical multiplier for the weapon master's current Mindblade. With this ability, a weapon master can increase the multiplier by +1. For example, the longsword has a critical multiplier of x2. When using this ability, increase that multiplier to x3 (2 + 1 = 3) once per day at the 2nd level of the weapon master prestige class. A weapon master gains an additional use per day at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels of this prestige class. To use this ability, declare its use before rolling any damage dice. Psionic Weapon Focus: Stacking with any existing Weapon Focus bonus, this adds an additional +1 on all attack rolls with the Mindblade. Combat Reflexes: The weapon master gains the Combat Reflexes feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add her Wisdom modifier to the number of additional attacks of opportunity she may make in a round. Improved Critical: The weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her mindblade's threat range for critical hits. Whirlwind: The weapon master gains the Whirlwind feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, she can make a whirlwind attack as a standard action rather than a full attack action. 1 - Psionic Damage, Mindblade Mastery: 500xp 2 - Increased Multiplier 1/day, +1 Manifester Level 3 - Psionic Weapon Focus, Mindblade Mastery: 1000xp 4 - Increased Multiplier 2/day, +1 Manifester Level 5 - Combat Reflexes, Mindblade Mastery: 1500xp 6 - Increased Multiplier 3/day, +1 Manifester Level 7 - Improved Critical, Mindblade Mastery: 2000xp 8 - Increased Multiplier 4/day, +1 Manifester Level 9 - Whirlwind, Mindblade Mastery: 2500xp 10 - Increased Multiplier 5/day, +1 Manifester Level BAB progression: As Fighter Save progression: As Rogue
Ra-Tiel 01-27-06, 08:39 AM	Hi. === @angellis_ater: Hi and welcome back Ra-Tiel. Thanks. --- Might I suggest taking a look further back in the thread to witness us giving up and going with your idea of limiting enhancement by class? :-) Already done! :D You know, sometimes I'm lurking in the dark, waiting for the perfect timing to glide down and sink my tentacles into.... :coolcthul .... :blush: .... :angelhide .... --- Anyhow - yeah he can become a PWM, but one of the main abilities is to expend XP to create a more powerful weapon, an ability which is completely useless with a mind blade. I was thinking of rewriting it with something else instead, since it requires a "standard deep crystal weapon without magic or psionic enhancements" I was thinking of adding something like instead of getting a +1 enhancement they can buy a [Mindblade] feat for the cost indicated. So, the first would cost 100xp, the 2nd 400 xp and so forth and a line about a PWM not being able to awaken more of her Mindblade than one feat per level. The problems I have with this is either dipping (one Mindblade feat for 100 xp?) or that the class is already pretty useful for a Mindblader if it hadn't been for a massive 9 feats required and a manifesting requirement of 3rd lvl (meaning a minimum of PsyWar7 or Psi5). So the "best" build to achieve these 9 feats and BAB would be: Human Psion 5 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Fighter 2 (or PsyWar 8/ Fighter 2) making him decidedly sub-optimal. Some of those feats make good choice for a non-Mindblader (like Psionic Weapon) so I would suggest a few changes for a "Mindblade Master" PrC. In general we can keep most class abilities and the manifester levels but we remove and reshape some prerequisites and add an ability allowing him to buy [Mindblade] feats at 1000xp for each level he has (so @ Mindblade Master 1 he can spend 1000xp and get a feat, @ level 5 he can spend 5000xp to gain one feat) or something like that. I will return shortly with a layout. Nevermind, I have just noticed that [Improved] Material Harmonics are [mindblade] feats, so a soulknife's mindblade would now already have an enhancement bonus and not be a legal target for "bonded weapon". But anyways, is it really necessary to create a PrC for this? I thought your whole point was to remove the mindblade abilities from class levels? :confused: Now introducing a PrC for it seems kinda.... contrary? I've seen so many suggestions and realizations of feats in this thread, more than enough for even a dozen psionic characters. I find it kinda unnecessary to create a PrC just for the sake of having one for the soulknife. I think there are enough abilities already made feats that otherwise would be great stuff for a PrC (like the class related feats; call the PrC "Blade Savant" or something similar and let it work out synergies with other classes the character has, or somesuch...) Also, you already pointed out the drawbacks and holes such a class could have. Either being too easy to enter and prone to dipping in for a cheap benefit, or on the other hand too hard to enter and not rewarding enough for the character. And finally... I think you're wrong with the "best" build. :P ;) Human - Dodge Level 1 - Power Attack PsyWar 1 - Form Mindblade Psywar 2 - Psychic Weapon Level 3 - Psionic Dodge Fighter 1 - Weapon Focus Fighter 2 - Mobility Ranger 1 - Track Level 6 - Material Harmonics Slayer 1 Slayer 2 Slayer 3 Level 9 - Improved Material Harmonics Slayer 4 Slayer 5 Slayer 6 would only loose a single Pr level, but would overall perform much better: Class [Levels] | Fort | Ref | Will | BAB | ML ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- PsyWar [2] | +3 | +0 | +0 | +1 | 2 ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- Fighter [2] | +3 | +0 | +0 | +2 | 0 ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- Ranger [1] | +2 | +2 | +0 | +1 | 0 ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- Slayer [6] | +2 | +2 | +5 | +6 | 5 ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- PsyWpnMst [9] | +3 | +6 | +3 | +9 | 4 ----------------+------+------+------+-----+---- Total [20] | +13 | +10 | +8 | +19 | 11 and in addition have all the little nifty abilities a level 6 slayer gets. :) --- <Edit> Suggested layout for the MWM PrC: Mindblade Weaponmaster PrC Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Psionic Dodge, Weapon Focus: Mindblade, Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade Base Attack: +5 Manifesting Level: 5th and above Psionic Damage: After a Mindblade weapon master scores a hit with her mindblade, do not roll dice to determine damage. Instead, figure the normal maximum damage (not a critical hit) the weapon master can inflict and do that much damage to the target. For example, a weapon master uses a mindblade shaped as a longsword, has a base attack bonus of +6, and possesses a Strength of 17. A longsword does 1d8 damage, so its maximum damage is 8 points. Her Strength modifier is +3, so add that for a total of 11. When the weapon master makes a successful critical hit, only the base damage from the weapon is maximized; roll normally for the extra damage from the critical hit. A weapon master can use this ability for free a number of times per day equal to her weapon master level, though additional uses of this ability cost 3 power points each. Mindblade Mastery: At first level and every two levels after that (3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th) the Mindblade Weaponmaster can buy a [Mindblade] feat for the cost of 500xp per class level. Increased Multiplier: Determine the standard critical multiplier for the weapon master's current Mindblade. With this ability, a weapon master can increase the multiplier by +1. For example, the longsword has a critical multiplier of x2. When using this ability, increase that multiplier to x3 (2 + 1 = 3) once per day at the 2nd level of the weapon master prestige class. A weapon master gains an additional use per day at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels of this prestige class. To use this ability, declare its use before rolling any damage dice. Psionic Weapon Focus: Stacking with any existing Weapon Focus bonus, this adds an additional +1 on all attack rolls with the Mindblade. Combat Reflexes: The weapon master gains the Combat Reflexes feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add her Wisdom modifier to the number of additional attacks of opportunity she may make in a round. Improved Critical: The weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her mindblade's threat range for critical hits. Whirlwind: The weapon master gains the Whirlwind feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, she can make a whirlwind attack as a standard action rather than a full attack action. 1 - Psionic Damage, Mindblade Mastery: 500xp 2 - Increased Multiplier 1/day, +1 Manifester Level 3 - Psionic Weapon Focus, Mindblade Mastery: 1000xp 4 - Increased Multiplier 2/day, +1 Manifester Level 5 - Combat Reflexes, Mindblade Mastery: 1500xp 6 - Increased Multiplier 3/day, +1 Manifester Level 7 - Improved Critical, Mindblade Mastery: 2000xp 8 - Increased Multiplier 4/day, +1 Manifester Level 9 - Whirlwind, Mindblade Mastery: 2500xp 10 - Increased Multiplier 5/day, +1 Manifester Level BAB progression: As Fighter Save progression: As Rogue :OMG! I'd strongly suggest either dropping some abilities in strength, or limiting them to a single mindblade form. But being able to apply these bonuses to your mindblade in every form seems a bit on the STRONG side... The Pwm has all these abilities in that strength because he's limiting himself to a single weapon and is royally screwed should this weapon get sundered or stolen. You're applying the same benefits to a character that can change his weapon's form in a moment's notice, switch out its abilities from day to day, and who cannot loose his weapon by any means. I'd suggest reducing the bonuses to half, or limiting them to maybe 1 form per two PrC levels or something like that. </Edit> === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Keku 01-27-06, 09:04 AM	What if, instead of making the feat add Concentration, you make the bonus limit, limited to their BAB? Just make a BAB prereq and classes will get there when they get there. Also the 50/50 enhancement/special ability thing is good. You can do this in a similar fashion to how they worded some of the 3.0 feats and thier PP reserve.
drunkenewok 01-27-06, 11:09 AM	But anyways, is it really necessary to create a PrC for this? I thought your whole point was to remove the mindblade abilities from class levels? :confused: Now introducing a PrC for it seems kinda.... contrary?Is anything we've done so far really necessary? :) In any case, I don't think the point of this venture was solely to abstract out all mindblade abilities as feats. Simply put, there are abilities that are simply unbalanced as feats, and as such, must either be forbidden or worked into a PrC. By a similar token, just because there is a feat chain for archery doesn't mean that you can't have a PrC that makes the character even better or more specialized at archery. (Though I'll readily agree that some of the existing feats might work better as PrC abilities, notably Mindseye Acuity, Enlightened Warrior, Soul Armor, Bladestorm, and Bladewind) Also, you already pointed out the drawbacks and holes such a class could have. Either being too easy to enter and prone to dipping in for a cheap benefit, or on the other hand too hard to enter and not rewarding enough for the character.Isn't this true for all PrCs? So if we allowed this argument to dissuade us from creating PrCs, would we ever create one? It's simply a matter of finding a balance between entry cost and total benefits. I'd strongly suggest either dropping some abilities in strength, or limiting them to a single mindblade form. But being able to apply these bonuses to your mindblade in every form seems a bit on the STRONG side...I'm not sure about it being overwhelmingly powerful, but I'll definitely agree that it's a bit on the strong side. If you look at it from the perspective of feats, you're spending 4 non-mindblade feats and 7500xp to get the equivalent of 5 mindblade feats, 4 more non-mindblade feats, AND the ability to increase the crit multiplier and damage. I'll grant that it's a pretty rigid build, since you can't pick and choose your feats, but even if all the prereq feats were dismal, it'd still be awfully good. It's also worth pointing out that the ability to purchase mindblade feats is significantly better (imho) than the existing PWMs ability to add bonuses. You not only get the extra +1 enhancement, but you also get the benefit of the feat itself. It's the same reason that we toned down the enhancement progression, because getting both in one package means you can't just balance against one or the other. The mindblader does have a slight drawback, in that he only gets 5 increases instead of 10, but the costs of each of those boosts are a bit lower. Finally, if we're going to build a PrC for the mindblader, I'd rather not just copy the PWM and make minor cosmetic changes. It smacks of the Psionic XXX syndrome (only Mindblade XXX), and that's something I'd prefer to avoid.
drunkenewok 01-27-06, 05:39 PM	I've got the reformatted feat tree up on my site, and it only took 2 weeks of procrastination and 2 hours of coding. :D Basic Mindblade feat tree description (http://toosigma.com/rpg/mindblade.php) Mindblade Feats (http://toosigma.com/rpg/mindblade_feats.php) There may be some errors, so feel free to lambast me so I can fix them. I also want to rewrite the initial paragraphs a bit, but I'm a bit mindblade-d out at the moment... :) Also, does anyone think removing the Concentration table for Material Harmonics would seriously unbalance things? Since it's only bypassing DR, you aren't getting anything wonderful until you pick up Improved Material Harmonics, and that has a CharLvl 9 prereq.
Seerow 01-27-06, 07:01 PM	Im thinking maybe two prestige classes for the mindblade warrior... The first prestige would be like the one already being discussed, a specialist in using his mindblade in Melee, a 10 level class that gives some unique abilities to the warrior. I don't like the idea of copying PWM though, I think something else would be more fitting, but Im not quite sure what yet. The other class I'm seeing is one that focuses on versatility. A 5 level prestige class with Mental Armory as a prerequisite to enter, that gives you the benefits of taking that feat again at every level without improving your Mindblade bonuses. (So you would have 7 different Mindblade shapes available to you by the end of it). This might be too much though... maybe 3 levels grant that over the course of 5, and give it medium BAB and only a good fort save, and maybe another ability in there somewhere. Im not sure, I just like the idea of a character with a mental bag of tricks. (And giving it every other level actually seems almost weak now, as for those 5 levels you could have gone Fighter, if you were a straight fighter that was 3 bonus feats you would have gained from those levels anyway, all could have been spent on that and improved your mindblade bonus.)
Ra-Tiel 01-28-06, 02:47 AM	Hi. === I've been toying around with a few ideas, and I found something that might be worth looking at in detail. It's just a quick sketch (although with much text) and should not be considered final by any means. The Blade Savant Some individuals not only have the potential to shape their will into a manifested blade, but some show even more promising desires. A very few selected minds are able to meld their psionic talent with their mundane skills, creating a powerful, crafty, and deadly force to be reckoned. Prerequisites: Feats: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Skill Focus (Concentration). Skills: Concentration 9 ranks, Knowledge (psionic) 6 ranks, and either Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Survival, Swim or Tumble 3 ranks. Special: Must have at least 1 level of a class that does not grant any [mindblade] bonus feats in any way (so fighter, psychic warrior, and monk levels do not count). The Blade Savant Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Craft, Climb, Diplomacy, Concentration, Listen, Knowledge (psionic), Profession, Sense Motive, Survival and Swim. Skill points at each level: 4 + Int modifier. Class ---Saving Throws--- Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Powers Known/Spells per day -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Meld Ability I --- 2 +1 +0 +3 +0 --- +1 manifesting class or +1 spellcasting class 3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Adaptability I --- 4 +3 +1 +4 +1 Meld Ability II --- 5 +3 +1 +4 +1 --- +1 manifesting class or +1 spellcasting class 6 +4 +2 +5 +2 Adaptability II --- 7 +5 +2 +5 +2 Meld Ability III --- 8 +6 +2 +6 +2 --- +1 manifesting class or +1 spellcasting class 9 +6 +3 +6 +3 Adaptability III --- 10 +7 +3 +7 +3 Meld Ability IV --- At 1st level the blade savant has just begun to discover his potential, and how he can combine his psionic talent with his mundane abilities. The form with which this combination takes place depends on his non-psionic abilities: Arcane Talent (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard): The blade savant gains a +2 insight bonus to his Spellcraft checks for every 5 ranks he has in psicraft, and a +2 insight bonus to his Knowledge (arcane) checks for every 5 ranks he has in Knowledge (psionics). Divine Talent (Cleric, Druid, Paladin): The blade savant gains a +2 insight bonus to his Spellcraft checks for every 5 ranks he has in Concentration, and a +2 insight bonus to his Knowledge (religion) checks for every 5 ranks he has in Knowledge (psionics). Martial Talent (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger): The blade savant gains a +2 insight bonus to all combat maneuvers (bull rush, disarm, overrun, trip, sunder) while focused. Skillfull Talent (Bard, Ranger, Rogue): The blade savant selects 1 skill per class level that he can increase as a class skill. For as long as he is focused he gains a +2 insight bonus on his selected skills. At 3rd level the blade savant has gained some insight into his powers, and melded some of his most basic abilities. The form with which this combination takes place depends on his non-psionic abilities: Barbarian: The blade savant's mindblade fuels some of his fury into itself. This grants the mindblade the vicious ability. This ability is only active while the savant is in rage. Bard: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to humm with the savant's performances. This grants the mindblade an additional bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the bonus he can provide with his "Inspire Competence". This ability is only active while the savant performs a bardic music effect (any effect, not necessarily "Inspire Competence"). Cleric: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to channel some of his divine powers into itself. This grants the mindblade the bane (undead) ability for a number of rounds equal to the savant's character level. To use this ability he must spend a daily use of his Turn Undead attempts. Druid: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to receive some blessings of nature. This grants the mindblade the bane (aberration) ability while in natural surroundings. Paladin: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to let some of its owner's holy energies flow through it. This grants the mindblade the bane (evil) and keen abilities. These abilities are only active when using a Smite Evil attempt. Ranger: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to infuse itself with some of its wielder's hatred. This grants the mindblade the bane ability (always for the correct creature type) when he attacks a member of his favored enemies. This ability works only on the first attack against any given target per day. Rogue: The blade savant'S mindblade gains the ability to almost meld with his sharp thoughts and guided intentions. This grants the mindblade the keen ability. This ability works only when attempting a sneak attack. Sorcerer: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to draw upon its owner's magical heritage. This grants the mindblade either the flaming, frost or shocking ability. This ability is only active after the savant cast one of his sorcerer spells, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice the spell slot used. Wizard: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to reach out into its wielder's mind and infuse itself with his logic and knowledge. This grants the mindblade the defending ability. This ability is only active after the savant cast one of his wizard spells, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice the spell slot used. None of the additionally granted special weapon abilities count against the blade savant's normal progression of his mindblade abilities. At 4th level the blade savant has gained a deeper understanding of how he can merge his abilities into a more powerful form. The form with which this combination takes place depends on his non-psionic abilities: Arcane Talent (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard): The blade savant gains a bonus to his caster level equal to 1/2 the savant's class level. This bonus does not grant the ability to cast spells of a higher level, nor does it grant more spells per day or spells known. This bonus lasts only for so long the savant is focused. Divine Talent (Cleric, Druid, Paladin): The blade savant gains a bonus to his caster level equal to 1/2 the savant's class level. This bonus does not grant the ability to cast spells of a higher level, nor does it grant more spells per day or spells known. This bonus lasts only for so long the savant is focused. Martial Talent (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger): The blade savant gains access to the feats Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Cleave and Improved Trip. These feats are treated as virtual feats, and are only accessable for as long the savant is focused. Skillfull Talent (Bard, Ranger, Rogue): The blade savant gains the feat Skill Focus for every skill he has selected in Meld Ability I. These feats are treated as virtual feats, and are only accessable for as long the savant is focused. At 5th level the blade savant has acquired some more understanding of his abilities, and unlocked more of his melded potential. The form with which this combination takes place depends on his non-psionic abilities: Barbarian: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to draw even more of its owners rage into itself. This grants the mindblade the anarchic ability. This ability is only active while the savant is in rage. Bard: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to humm on on itself for some time. This grants the mindblade the ability to continue a bardic music effect for its wielder. It can continue the performance for 1 round per the savant'S class level. the savant himself is therewhile free to do something else, even start another bardic music. After the mindblade ceases the performance, the effect ends after its usual duration. Cleric: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to channel an even stronger manifestation of divine energies. This grants the mindblade the impact and disruption abilities for a number of rounds equal to the savant'S character level. To use this ability he must spend a daily use of his Turn Undead attempts. Druid: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to strike even harder against nature's foes. This grants the mindblade the thundering ability. Paladin: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to channel an even greater amount of holy powers. This grants the mindblade the holy ability. This ability is only active when using a Smite Evil attempt. Ranger: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to strike true against its wielder's hated foes. This grants the mindblade the keen and wounding abilities when he attacks a member of his favored enemies. This ability works only on the first attack against any given target per day. Rogue: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to warp and flow as its user desires. This grants the mindblade the ability to be treated as one category smaller without changing its other properties (two-handed stays two-handed, but one-handed becomes light). Sorcerer: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to fuel itself with powers from its owner's magical heritage. This grants the mindblade either the flaming burst, icy burst or shocking burst ability. This ability is only active after the savant cast one of his sorcerer spells, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice the spell slot used. Wizard: The blade savant's mindblade gains the ability to borrow logical methods and complex tactics from its wielder's mind and imbues itself with them to find the weakest spots in its enemies. This grants the mindblade the brilliant ability. This ability is only active after the savant cast one of his wizard spells, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice the spell slot used. None of the additionally granted special weapon abilities count against the blade savant's normal progression of his mindblade abilities. All additionally granted special weapon abilities from this class feature stack with any and all abilities gained from Adaptability I. Meld Ability III (yet to come) Adaptability III (yet to come) Meld Ability IV (yet to come) I'm not really interested now to design and balance this PrC, but I think you got my point. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 01-28-06, 07:30 AM	Everyone: Ok, you all got a point! *picks up his Mindblade rip-off and scraps it* Just bouncing ideas, but it did kinda, well, suck on a creativity level. I'll try to do something new and interesting instead of remaking an existing class. -- DrunkenEwok: Thanks a bunch DE for putting up the current list of feats at your site! Awesome job with both layout and wording. A few small spelling errors and one miss though: 1st line: "...your connection to you mindblade..." should be YOUR 3rd line: "...bonus to gran an equal..." should be GRANT 4th line: "...and the speical abilities..." should be SPECIAL 6th line: "...exceed your character level..." should be HALF YOUR CHARACTER Song and Dance, 3rd line: "...If you mindblade has..." should be YOUR Ghost Hunter, 2nd line: "...Undead Band..." should be BANE Oh, I would suggest that we use an uniform way of referring to special abilities, such as placing them all within quotes ( "Flaming" ) or italicized (Flaming) rather than have both AND unformated names. -- Seerow: I saw a "Virtual Weaponmaster" PrC flash by here on the Forums which I am sure would pretty much fulfill your idea with just small modifications to make place for our modified Mindblade Feats (add Feat requirements instead of class abilities). -- Ra-Tiel: Sounds like an interesting idea and I don't think it needs more than those 3 abilities and make it a 5 level PrC. I WOULD suggest not giving it spellcaster level increases, only manifester though.
Seerow 01-28-06, 11:53 AM	1) I think Ra-Tiels idea was to encourage people to have Mindblades in any class that doesn't normally encourage such things. Taking a spellcasters casting for 5 or 10 levels completely defeats the point. Doing the same to a manifester sucks too, but you're saying to give them some levels. 2) Can I get a link to that? Searching for stuff around here, especially when you're not entirely sure what you're looking for, really sucks.
drunkenewok 01-28-06, 01:29 PM	A few small spelling errors and one miss though:I'll get to it ASAP. I also agree we should try to standardize things, though I don't have a strong personal preference either way. Most of the core books tend to italicize items, so maybe italicizing special abilities is best? Also, I've tried to standardize everything with "Mindblade" instead of "Mind Blade", though technically the latter is correct. It won't be hard to do a global find/replace, so I just need to know which is the preferred spelling. I like Ra-Tiel's goal, but the implementation rubs me the wrong way. I don't like long lists of "Either X or Y or Z or ..." cause it just seems clunky. I'd rather make a half-dozen 3 or 5-level PrCs for each class, and maybe give suggestions for developing other base-class extensions. Such an implementation would also eliminate the need to include "+1 manifesting or +1 spellcasting" text. The class-based feats would be an excellent prereq, or we could dispose of the class-based feats and roll the abilities into the PrCs... I'll try to get an example or two written up. As for the Virtual Weapon Master, the link is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574506). Another interesting class based on a similar idea plus some mindblade abilities is the Ojilashta PrC (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530516) by Antendren. They're both excellent ideas, though the VWM is still getting polished down to a finalized form.
angellis_ater 01-28-06, 06:22 PM	Drunkenewok: Oh, by the way - completely missed to point out that I support your idea on removing the Concentration requirements for the different kinds of DR piercing available through Material Harmonics. I feel we can generally loose it without it truthfully affecting game-play since it still requires the DMs approval in the form of the material being present in the game somehow. Do you feel that we're kinda finished with this project now? I'm having a hard time thinking up something that needs to be done now for the Feat tree to feel nice and shiny.
angellis_ater 02-02-06, 02:15 PM	So, we finished? We gonna start another thread for the Mindstorm?
drunkenewok 02-02-06, 03:20 PM	So, we finished? We gonna start another thread for the Mindstorm?Things we still need to do: Decide how we want to format special abilities. Either Flaming or "Flaming" or Flaming, and standardize the write-up. (I'm leaning toward the unitalicized, unquoted version, simply because that seems to be the standard in the SRD.) Decide which of "Mind Blade" or "Mindblade" is correct, and standardize. (I believe the SRD uses "Mind Blade") Do a quick scan of the thread to verify that there aren't any ideas or comments that we've failed to consider or would now like to incorporate. Decide whether to finish the Mindstorm here or in another thread. (Here is as good a place as any, imho)
Kirech 02-02-06, 07:47 PM	My votes: - Unformatted is good. - I'd say 'Mindblade' since feat types tend to be one word (exception: Weapon Style) - The mechanic seems pretty well fleshed out. - I'm staying out of the Mindstorm discussion, mostly because I have nothing to add. One revision I'd recommend for the opening paragraph, regarding bonus/ability ratio. Saying that the two can't be apart by more than one already prevents the bonus from going over 5, so that part is redundant. Otherwise, great job on the web page, since I haven't said so already. Has the first post been edited to link to it? I'll go check, but it should be if not.
angellis_ater 02-03-06, 08:17 AM	My suggestion would be unformatted as well, to keep with the SRD. I would suggest that we use "Mind Blade" in the text and "Mindblade" for the feats, just for keeping them slightly apart. If we only want to use ONE way of spelling them, my suggestion would be "Mindblade". I would suggest that we look over the "1 apart" mechanic as well. Since we now limit the enhancement bonus by level perhaps we can rewrite it to "Special abilities cannot exceed the enhancement bonus"? Because by the current writing we cannot have a "+3 flaming" sword, rather we must have a +2 "flaming burst" sword. Then we continue here! I'll post a link in the first post to the webpage once I am done with this reply. Mindstorm As we stand right now I feel we've lost some of that "movement-archer" feeling we were going for in the beginning. So, should we add the "Speed of Thought" feat and improvements back in AND take something out, or just add it in? When it comes to Manifester levels I've begun to wonder if we should retain them at all. If a PsyWar wants to retain even a smallish advantage in his manifesting he won't go for this PrC, rather taking Slayer levels. I think we should focus on creating a PrC for those that focus on their mindblades primarily. Or give people a choice (+1 manifester level OR +1 Mindblade feat count?).
Kirech 02-03-06, 09:53 AM	I would suggest that we look over the "1 apart" mechanic as well. Since we now limit the enhancement bonus by level perhaps we can rewrite it to "Special abilities cannot exceed the enhancement bonus"? Because by the current writing we cannot have a "+3 flaming" sword, rather we must have a +2 "flaming burst" sword. Hmm. I may have opened up another worm-can. I didn't want to change the mechanic, just remove some redundancy. Really, I'd like to make it work like the original Soulknife. You can sacrifice any amount of enhancement bonus to grant an equal amount of weapon special abilities from the Special Abilities list below. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 before adding any special abilities and the special abilities only apply so long as you maintain psionic focus. The enhancement bonus may not go above +5. The enhancement bonus and the total cost of any special abilities cannot differ by more than 1 and the combined total cannot exceed half your character level. This could be changed to this: Half of this enhancement bonus (rounded down) must be used to purchase weapon special abilities from the list below. These abilities only apply so long as you are psionically focused, and any unused points are wasted until you change your selection.
drunkenewok 02-03-06, 12:06 PM	Hmm. I may have opened up another worm-can. I didn't want to change the mechanic, just remove some redundancy. Really, I'd like to make it work like the original Soulknife.First off, that's an excellent rewrite, I only wish I had come up with it first. :claps: As far as changing the mechanic, I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow a character to spend more points on straight enhancement than on special abilities. (Or, for that matter, the opposite) Unfortunately, my weapon damage stat calculators don't currently take into account the increased bonus to hit, so they're only really useful for comparing two weapons with the same (or almost the same) bonus to hit. I'll see if I can tweak it and run the numbers, but my gut tells me it won't hurt to change. As we stand right now I feel we've lost some of that "movement-archer" feeling we were going for in the beginning. So, should we add the "Speed of Thought" feat and improvements back in AND take something out, or just add it in?I don't really have a problem with adding in, we can always carve out things that don't fit or make it too powerful in the final revision stages. A better question might be how focused do we want this PrC to be? It's already got "mindblade archer" as a primary focus, do we need to make it "movement mindblade archer"? I don't really have a problem adding a dual focus, I just think we should agree on what the actual goal of the class is before adding abilities. When it comes to Manifester levels I've begun to wonder if we should retain them at all. If a PsyWar wants to retain even a smallish advantage in his manifesting he won't go for this PrC, rather taking Slayer levels. I think we should focus on creating a PrC for those that focus on their mindblades primarily. Or give people a choice (+1 manifester level OR +1 Mindblade feat count?).Personally, I think leaving both in is unlikely to unbalance things. A 5/10 ML progression is almost universally shunned as dismally underpowered, so the only reason for a PsyWar (or any manifester) to take this class is if he's really interested in the classes other abilities. Eliminating the ML progression entirely will make it even less appealing, to the point of making it un-take-able by a PsyWar. We could increase the base abilities to the point where a PsyWar could consider it, but that might make it too good for non-PsyWars. I'd rather wait until we have a more-or-less finished product, and then test out a couple builds to see if they're overwhelming, and decide at that point whether to change/eliminate the ML progression.
angellis_ater 02-03-06, 01:32 PM	Well, your idea sounds pretty solid and cuts down the wordcount and pretty hefty bit of info people would have to chew through.
Lyric 02-03-06, 06:10 PM	I am looking for feedback on the Soulknife FEATS not on the concept since I've already chosen to use the Feats. With the modified version above, does it sound better? I know I know, and the feats are intriguing, though I'd like to see more in the epic section, else why bother with them? there's what, 3? 4? Plus, making the abilities into a feat style, would make many psychic warriors go that route.. and they have the bonus feats to make use of it (something I sometimes wish soulknifes had) but then there becomes a problem.. originally, a soulknife had no manifesting power.. no power list to pull additional abilities from.. by turning the soulknife class into feats only, it makes it simple to, in a sense, guestault a soulknife with a psychic warrior, in a way that is.. and combining those abilities is a heck of a lot of power.. I mean, imagine a few insight bonuses to hit and damage from a few powers.. then imagine the AC bonuses psychic warriors can get from their powers.. (which is really big if you didn't know) the guy wakes up in the morning.. has no armor, no weapon.. and tears himself out of prison/slavery with a mere "thought"... while a fighter, for example, needs his weapon and armor... kinda unfair.. just a thought.. however.. some of the enhancements you've given to what were formerly class abilities (now feats) I think are very interestin :) keep up the good work! They could easily be used just as you have them with the feat tree, or they could be added to the existing soulknife as it was originally made...
Kirech 02-03-06, 08:43 PM	I kept the half-and-half enforced because I didn't want there to be an easy way around the penalty for losing focus. If you want the unlimited bonus, though, here's how to fix it. Half of this enhancement bonus (rounded down) may be used to purchase weapon special abilities from the list below. These abilities only apply so long as you are psionically focused. The weapon's actual enhancement bonus can not go above +5. I vote for the first way, but I will support the majority decision.
Aramul 02-03-06, 08:53 PM	Great work on the tree guys. One suggestion, similar to adding to the Monk bonus feat options, perhaps a Mindblade-focused Ranger Combat Style wouldn't be out of line. Have it grant perhaps Soulblade Warrior at 2nd level, Hunter's Blade at 6th, and Bladewind at 11th. It'd be nice to have the mindblade options opened up some for non-fighters/psychic warriors, and I think that would help some. On a related note, Bladewind has the same requirements listed that Bladestorm does...including itself. Bladestorm [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks. ...snip... Bladewind [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Bladewind, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 15 ranks.
angellis_ater 02-03-06, 10:05 PM	Mindblade feats: To keep with how the original Soulknife was and to make sure that the whole "focus or loose abilities" doesn't become a non-issue until Level 12 I vote with Kirech that we keep his original wording where half of the enhancement points must be Special Abilities. Ranger ideas: A Ranger Combat Style would be interesting and I'll give it some thought. The problem is that it requires atleast two feats chosen at 1st level to be viable (Wild Talent and Form Mindblade) whereas the Rangers other choices do not. We could ofcourse just let them take these feats independent of their original requirements, but then I personally feel that we could allow them to get "Hunters Blade" at lvl 2, "Resonant Blade" at lvl 6 and "Knife to the Soul" at lvl 11. First of all this makes them closest to the original Soulknife in alot of ways and has a smoother direction than those suggested (atleast in my opinion). Toosigma.com typos and suggested changes: The forementioned Bladewind/Bladestorm prerequisite typo. I would suggest we move all class-based Feats to "Concentration 4 ranks" since otherwise a few classes are penalized. The above mentioned "fix" on how the Mindblade works. Material Harmonics has a "special" which is meaningless after we removed the table of available materials. Improved Material Harmonics has "...material benefits are not lots in a..." which should be LOST Knife to the Soul has "...you gives up..." which should be GIVE We should add "Concentration 4 ranks" as a Prerequisite for Monastic Blade to keep in line with the other class-based feats. Shape Mindblade has multiple instances of "mind blade" instead of "mindblade" Focused Shield should have the prerequisite "Concentration 6 ranks" just like Shield of Thought has Form Mindblade has some instances of "mind blade" instead of "mindblade" Energized Shield should have "Concentration 6 ranks" as a prerequisite, just like Shield of Thought I would suggest we re-write Dual Wielder to remove the enhancement loss when manifesting two blades instead of lowering the normal penalty. The net effect is slightly better with my "version" but keeps us within the bounds of our own feats. Therefore we could also remove "Two-weapon fighting" as a prerequisite if we feel like it. Final Suggested Feat: Improved Shield of Thought [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Shield of Thought, Focused Shield, Concentration 9 ranks Benefit: You can manifest a Heavy Shield instead of a Light Shield, or a Tower shield (if you are proficient with Tower shields). You can manifest your thoughtshield as a swift action. Special: If you have Soulblade Warrior, you can manifest both your shield and your mindblade as one swift action. Lyric: And what do you presume a Druid or a Sorceror does when "enslaved"? Wakes up in the morning, shatters any bonds, transforms into a superbeast or starts tearing the entire place up. Guess what - the fighter can't do that either. But that was a speciality question. Allow me to turn it around - a fighter finds a bunch of magic stuff, and can use almost any of them immediately. After a hard day in the dungeon killing stuff, the Wizard is hulking in the shadows while the fighter is STILL lopping of heads in every direction. A XXX can't do that. See? If you tailor a specific question to your answer, you'll always be correct. By the way, a PsyWar can ALWAYS use "Call Armor" and "Call Weaponry" to arm and armor himself - without using Mindblades. In my eyes the Soulknife was a concept lacking something as a class, but could shine as a Feat tree. A dedicated "Soulknifer" can take the Fighter class, get better BAB and a few extra feats to boot. Other, more interesting and intriguing options, become available to Psions, Wilders and Psychic Warriors (not mentioning the basic classes and the PsyRogue). I see this as a bonus, since they ALL have to PAY for it through their feats. If the Psychic Warrior forgoes Psionic Weapon and Deep Thrust for Form Mindblade and Shape Mindblade he is generally in a worse condition than before. Mindstorm PrC Ok, good points about the 5/10 ML progression, I wouldn't want to keep the PsyWars OUT of this class either! We'll keep it into playtesting and see what happens! In general I was just thinking of the concept we had in the beginning, which was "move & fire" to build upon the Mindstorm ability, but that isn't a necessity at all. If we DO go "archer" all the way on the concept, then perhaps something else could be added in, because when reading it over I do feel we are lacking something. If we do keep the "movement archer" idea the build also becomes alot more viable for a Monk if we just add "some for of movement bonus" as a prerequisite instead of a specific feat - our mindblading monk could thereby pursue a good speedster concept in this class as well.
Lyric 02-03-06, 11:31 PM	Lyric: And what do you presume a Druid or a Sorceror does when "enslaved"? Wakes up in the morning, shatters any bonds, transforms into a superbeast or starts tearing the entire place up. Guess what - the fighter can't do that either. But that was a speciality question. Allow me to turn it around - a fighter finds a bunch of magic stuff, and can use almost any of them immediately. After a hard day in the dungeon killing stuff, the Wizard is hulking in the shadows while the fighter is STILL lopping of heads in every direction. A XXX can't do that. See? If you tailor a specific question to your answer, you'll always be correct. By the way, a PsyWar can ALWAYS use "Call Armor" and "Call Weaponry" to arm and armor himself - without using Mindblades. Good point, my example was a little one sided :) I tend to classify soulknife's along with warriors, and tend to compare them to other warriors, leaving wizards and psions etc as their own group.. it's true, each character class does have unique abiilities, perhaps it's not fair of me to put a soulknife on equal footing with, say, a fighter, since they are each unique.. and have their own ups and downs.. Edit : Call weaponry wouldn't work in a Null-psionics Field.. does this feat tree concept continue the mind blade ability to function in such a field with a high enough will save?? That is a little advantage I find very appealing..
angellis_ater 02-04-06, 05:13 AM	Yes, with a Concentration check (we changed that bit) the Mindblader can retain his Mindblade, but not all of his abilities or enhancements and special abilities. For example he can retain his mindblade and thoughtshield, as well as some of its characteristics (oversized).
drunkenewok 02-04-06, 03:19 PM	I'll try to make the corrections to the site tomorrow, since I've got a gaming session tonight... I'm also with y'all on keeping the half/half enhancement/ability split, which will go in when I do edits. does this feat tree concept continue the mind blade ability to function in such a field with a high enough will save?? That is a little advantage I find very appealing..If you haven't yet read my reply to your other post, you might want to do so. A lot of people make the mistake of forgetting that Su abilities don't work in an AMF/NPF. The ability of a soulknife to manifest his mind blade within an AMF is merely a concession to prevent such an effect from disarming him (which doesn't happen to "normal" weapon-wielding characters).
angellis_ater 02-05-06, 06:11 PM	I've taken some time to think about our Archer concept and decided that we can throw out the movement-part since it would be unfortunate trying to do two things with one class. I'd rather we work on some kind of Psionic Shot synergy ideas with the class and making it a powerful and dangeorus mindarcher. So, we keep the ML progression, let him count every 2 levels as a [Mindblade] feat for purposes of enhancement, let him change materials more or less at will, add some specials to his arrows (Morphic Arrow) and finally shoot everyone (more or less). We throw out Skirmish, insight bonuses to speed. What do we replace it with? Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot and Fell Shot? Perhaps something that lets him regain psionic focus as a move action without rolling? This would give him the equivalent of 5 feats (if we don't add Psionic Meditation as a prereq) which is kind of alot.
Kirech 02-05-06, 11:49 PM	I know I said I would stay out of the PrC, but I just had an interesting idea. Why not, as a first-level ability, allow the mindstorm to count Psionic Shot, G. Psionic Shot, and Fell Shot as Mindblade feats? It's kind of borrowing a page from the Moonspeaker's book, which makes sense, since part of the concept of the Mindblade feats is borrowed from Shifter feats, anyway. If there are any other good archery-based Psionic feats, maybe those should be added, too. Zen Archery also seems to fit the theme, and be a good one for a PsyWar Mindstorm to take. I picture the bald guy from Seven Samurai, calmly drawing and firing his bow in the midst of chaos. The only difference is that the bow is made of woven Ether and the arrows explode.
angellis_ater 02-06-06, 03:40 PM	That is actually an excellent idea! By doing that we "hint" that those feats are good choices to take, while not having to hand them out in the PrC they still get benefits from them! Excellent, truely great! :) The question is if we give this ability out at level 1, because that might make the class somewhat front-loaded and I personally dislike frontloaders because of the abuse possible. Perhaps we can add something like "Perfect Mindseye" as a 4-6th lvl ability letting you count Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, Return Shot and Zen Archery as [Mindblade] feats for the purpose of mindblade enhancement? Otherwise we could give out 1-2 of these feats and lower the "Mindseye Archery" bonus? Could look like this: 1 - Mindseye Archery +1, Material Harmonics 2 - Manifester level +1, Psionic Shot 3 - Morphic Arrow +1 4 - Manifester level +1, Mindseye Archery +2 5 - Greater Psionic Shot 6 - Morphic Arrow +2, Manifester level +1 7 - Mindseye Archery +3 8 - Improved Material Harmonics, Manifester level +1 9 - Perfect Mindseye 10 - Mindstorm, Manifester level +1 In total this PrC gives out 4 free feats (while a fighter would give out 6) so I would suggest we give this guy a D8 hit die and a medium-good BAB with 4 skill points per level. At lvl 9 he has an effective +5 enhancement to his mindblade arrows, can change what materials they are made of, does +4d6 damage for psionic focus and he can change special abilities. He is also at +4 manifester levels. At 10, he shoots everyone and is at +5 manifester levels. This guy sounds about right, I just can't figure out if we should go with Medium BAB or Good BAB?
drunkenewok 02-06-06, 04:54 PM	Why not, as a first-level ability, allow the mindstorm to count Psionic Shot, G. Psionic Shot, and Fell Shot as Mindblade feats?I like that idea, it gives a nice bonus and it keeps us from having to use them as prereqs or provide them as bonus feats. Zen Archery also seems to fit the theme, and be a good one for a PsyWar Mindstorm to take.I still cringe at the thought of a PsyWar with 34 Wis and both Zen Archery and Mindseye Acuity. He'd basically have a +24 to attack before even figuring any bonuses from the weapon or BAB. If the Mindstorm keeps it's Good BAB and virtual mindblade improvements, and gets at least 5 total mindblade feats, then a PsyWar 10/Mindstorm 10 would have a +46 to hit on the first attack. Couple it with Rapid Shot, TWF, ITWF, and the Speed special ability, the full attack routine would be +42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+27. Tack on a fully augmented offensive precognition, and you'd add an extra +5. Each arrow can theoretically deal 1d8+2d6+12+Str damage, and assuming all hit and Str of 18 (neither of which is unlikely), that's 27.5 damage per attack for 8 attacks = 220 damage per round. And that's without using the Mindstorm cap ability. :) Feats: 12 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Mindseye Acuity, Material Harmonics, Inner Focus, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Zen Archery We still need to settle on exactly how the L10 ability should work: Do we need to put a cap on the number of targets? (And if we cap it, can you fire more than once at a single target as long as you stay under the cap?) What range? (full bow range, 30', or 30' normally, and full range if you also get bladestorm?) Action? Standard or Full-round? Uses/day? 1/day, 3/day, at will? Does the bonus damage from Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot/sneak attack/critical apply to all attacks? Or just one of them? There are many combinations that will work and are well balanced, but some of them aren't. Just need to know which we're planning to use so I can properly judge the balance.
angellis_ater 02-07-06, 05:41 AM	We could just state that Mindseye Acuity is an "improved" version of Zen Archery and that they do not stack? Problem solved. Second of all, how on Earth do you add in Strength damage to ranged attacks with the Mindstorm Bow? It might be that it would work for thrown mindblades, but then he's not getting the bonuses from his Mindstorm class to the feat count, a lessened range and so forth. Or add in Psionic Shots +2d6 on more than the first attack? Without those bonuses we get an average of 16.5 meaning a total damage of 140 in one round, not exactly devastating. So, we remove the stackability with Zen Archery and the problems is fixed. Excellent. :) I would suggest that he can use his Mindstorm ability to fire once on every enemy within the first range increment. He should be able to use this ability once per day, since I feel it could easily become overpowering.
drunkenewok 02-07-06, 10:58 AM	We could just state that Mindseye Acuity is an "improved" version of Zen Archery and that they do not stack? Problem solved.Ok, I'll work on adding it to the "special" clause in Mindseye Acuity. Second of all, how on Earth do you add in Strength damage to ranged attacks with the Mindstorm Bow?Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I thought we'd agreed that the Mindstorm Bow was going to work like a composite bow suited to your Str bonus, and there's this line of the SRD:A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow, specially built composite longbow, or sling. Or add in Psionic Shots +2d6 on more than the first attack?I was actually assuming that the character was using Morphic Arrow to switch his special abilities to the most appropriate type for the target. Either one of the alignment-based (e.g. holy vs evil) or two of the energy based (e.g. shock+frost). Thus the calculations above don't include any damage from Psionic Shot or Greater Psionic Shot. Assuming you remove the Zen Archery stackability, you do miss out on +12 to hit (which I'll readily admit is huge) but you don't lose anything else from the suggested combo. Maximum per-round damage potential is still 220, but you won't be getting that high as often. Note #1: 220 per-round damage isn't completely overwhelming, since a split empowered crystal shard does 48d6 (avg 168) on a pair of touch attacks, and a fully charged split chain energy conversion could deal 2*(60+30*20) = 1320 damage on a pair of touch attacks in optimal conditions. So the hypothetical Mindstorm build is good, but it does require a substantial investment in resources. Note #2: A DM could very feasibly rule that the TWF chain doesn't apply to the Mindbow, since it's not technically considered a thrown weapon anymore. That would cut out 2 of the 8 attacks, and cut the per-round damage potential to 165. I would suggest that he can use his Mindstorm ability to fire once on every enemy within the first range increment. He should be able to use this ability once per day, since I feel it could easily become overpowering.Agreed, and I think that should work fine. Just wanted to know which of the half-dozen balanced versions we were going to stick with.
Seerow 02-07-06, 04:44 PM	Taking another look at Mindseye Acruity Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: Your ranged attacks are guided by your inner wisdom and mental strength rather than your physical abilities, allowing you find the weakest points in their defense. You add your Wisdom bonus to ranged attacks and damage, but only with your Mindblade weaponry. Special: A monk can select this as a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd or 6th level, in addition to the normal options available at those levels. They must still meet all prerequisites for the feat. Now, the argument here is the stackability with Zen Archery. Realize that if you take out the ability to Zen Archery, you have just made Zen Archery completely useless to a Mindblader. Here you have Wisdom to Hit and Damage, in addition to your strength bonus, if Im reading it right. (It says add rather than instead of). I'll agree that adding a single stat twice is powerful, but making one feat completely worthless to you because this feat is twice as strong is telling me that it's this feat that's overpowered, not just the other stacking with it. Course, I could be wrong. I have no numbers to back it up, Im just saying it seems like adding Wis to Hit and Damage is pretty powerful in comparison to switching Wis for Strength in the To Hit.
drunkenewok 02-07-06, 06:32 PM	If you're trying to say that Mindseye Acuity is significantly better than Zen Archery, you're probably right. Adding your Wis bonus to both attacks and damage, even when restricted to only your mindblade weaponry is significantly better than simply substituting your Wis mod for your Dex mod. I'll probably agree that Mindseye Acuity is a little (perhaps a lot) on the strong side. I also think that Zen Archery is a little on the weak side. Reasoning: Take a straight-melee build which focuses on Strength. Assuming he uses a two-handed weapon, he gets to add his Str mod to attacks, and 1.5 times his Str mod to damage. He spends 36,000gp on a belt of giant strength and gets a +3 to attacks, and +4.5 to damage. Now consider an Archer build. He adds his Dex to hit, and (maybe) his Str to damage (if he pays extra for a composite bow). He has to spend more than twice as much money to get the same bonuses as the melee build. Now consider a Mindstorm build with a feat that replaces Dex/Str with Wis/Wis. Now he can add his Wis to hit, and Wis to damage. He spends 36,000gp on a periapt of wisdom and gets a +3 to attacks and +3 to damage. So he's spent an extra feat and he's still not up to the level of the of the straight-melee build. Finally, consider a Mindstorm build with a feat that adds Wis/Wis to the standard Dex/Str. This is the only combination that actually outshines the vanilla melee build. If he spends 36,000gp on a periapt of wisdom and 16,000gp on a belt of giant strength, he +3 to attacks and +5 to damage. (So he spends a feat and an extra 16,000gp to reach the same approximate bonuses that the melee build gets for free). So while I'll readily agree that Mindseye Acuity is better than Zen Archery, it could be argued that Mindseye Acuity is actually closer to being a balanced feat (though perhaps a little over the top) than Zen Archery is. Note: I've intentionally ignored the possible synergy that could be gained from increasing Dex and/or Wis that would not be gained by increasing Str for the sake of simplicity. For certain builds, this added synergy is sufficient to outweigh the extra costs described above.
angellis_ater 02-07-06, 07:46 PM	Mindstorm: First of all I forgot about that clause on Composite Longbows regarding Strength bonuses. So that's understood. I take it you saw where my Psionic Shot idea came from considering it was discussed earlier? So, average damage potential would be 165/220 and you've proven it wasn't that good even. I would not allow TWF with the Mindstorm PrC but that could just be me. Anyhow, do we want to add in any more abilities or take any away? -- Regarding Mindseye Acuity: First of all, there are TWO major "stopping blocks" for MA versus Zen Archery. The first are the THREE feats and 12 ranks of Concentration you need limiting both what kind of feats you can take, costing Skill Points AND restricting it to level 9 at the earliest. Second of all, it only applies to Mindblades. Zen Archery can be taken at FIRST level with NO feat or skill prerequisites at all and thereby benefit a character for 9 whole levels more than Mindseye Acuity does. The character with ZA can apply it to ALL ranged attacks, including bows, crossbows and thrown weapons as well as magical/psionic ranged touch/ray attacks. As far as I personally see it Zen Archery is a really good feat for some builds and a mediocre feat for most builds. Mindseye Acuity is a thematic feat which is good, but ONLY for almost full-scale Mindbladers and useless for anything but Mindblades. So no, I don't see any problems with the feat either.
angellis_ater 02-13-06, 08:10 AM	So, does the new feats from Dragon Magazine #341 have any good ideas we could use or adapt for our own Feat tree? -- Secondly, I've been looking over the old Soulknife class and how it would "work" as a class which gains our feats over time. What I found was that it got a few benefits and a no drawbacks: Benefits: - Better Shape Mindblade - Better Throw Mindblade since they get Soulblade Warrior at lvl 5 - Better iniative (thanks to SW) - More choices earlier for weapon special abilities - Better "Psychic Strike" ability So, in essence we could "keep" the Soulknife Class as a base class specializing in Mindblade Feats. In addition to the Mindblade feats it also gets the following for free: Wild Talent, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Speed of Thought. A Fighter build could get the same Mindblade Feats + Wild Talent but with a better BAB but worse saves and less skill points. So, perhaps we can keep the Soulknife class as a specialist, since their abilities are now slightly better over all?
drunkenewok 02-13-06, 12:14 PM	So, does the new feats from Dragon Magazine #341 have any good ideas we could use or adapt for our own Feat tree?Other than Strategic and Tactical reassignment, our feats already equal or surpass the other feats. Our feats do tend to be more powerful in general, but I think that WotC tends to err on the side of underpowering new feats, sometimes to a fault. Adamantine Blade, Strategic/Tactical Reassessment, and Practiced Mind Blade would be the only ones I'd seriously consider taking. Secondly, I've been looking over the old Soulknife class and how it would "work" as a class which gains our feats over time. What I found was that it got a few benefits and a no drawbacks:I've put together the class table I think you're referring to, just so we can compare:Lvl Normal New Special 1 0/0 0/0 Form Mindblade, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Wild Talent 2 0/0 1/0 Throw Mindblade 3 0/0 1/1 Resonating Blade 4 1/0 1/1 5 1/0 2/2 Soulblade Warrior, Shape Mindblade 6 1/1 2/2 Speed of Thought 7 1/1 3/2 Resonating Blade 8 2/1 3/2 9 2/1 3/3 Bladewind, Greater Weapon Focus (mind blade) 10 2/2 3/3 11 2/2 4/3 Resonating Blade 12 3/2 4/3 13 3/2 4/4 Knife to the Soul 14 3/3 4/4 15 3/3 5/4 Resonating Blade 16 4/3 5/4 17 4/3 5/4 18 4/4 5/4 19 4/4 5/5 Resonating Blade 20 5/4 5/5It's a class that grants 15 bonus feats compared to the Fighter's 11, so even with the restrictive choices I'm not sure it's really balanced. It's also heavily front-loaded, since you get 11 feats by L9, and there's little reason to continue progressing in the class past L9, since the feat progression slows down and the feats after L9 aren't the greatest. If we're going to make a Soulknife class based on the feats, I'd highly recommend spacing things out more, and probably moving things around. As dip-friendly as this class is, I'd hazard a guess that you'll see a lot of severe multi-class builds. Soulknife 5/Fighter 4 is a pretty nice base, as is Soulknife 5/Monk 6. Throw in Mindstorm on top of everything, and I worry the balance might get out of hand. Also, just a random point, but comparing the relative prereqs of two feats doesn't really make a big difference from a balance perspective unless those prereqs are decidely sub-standard choices. The fact that Mindseye Acuity has three feats and 12 ranks of Concentration as prereqs doesn't necessarily make it a "balanced" choice when compared to the prereq-less Zen Archery, it merely delays the point at which you can attain the feat. Given that Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, and Soulblade Warrior are all excellent statistical choices for feats and that they all synergize well with Mindseye Acuity makes the prereq issue even less of a convincing argument. The fact that Mindseye Acuity only applies to mindblade attacks isn't much of a balancing factor either, since any character who invests the 4 feats necessary to get Mindseye Acuity is likely to be using mindblade weaponry (and often ranged mindblade weaponry) whenever possible. Given the possible synergy that could be attained via Mindseye Acuity that was intentionally not included in the analysis above (like Monk's AC bonus, PsyWar/Cleric/Druid manifesting/casting stat, etc.), I don't think it would be unreasonable to limit the Wisdom bonus to either attack or damage (player's choice, once/round), instead of both. In that case, if a character takes Zen Archery, he could then get Wis to both attack and damage, which would make taking both feats a good idea. It would also reduce the "WOW!" factor currently inherent in Mindseye Acuity. It is better than any other MAD-reducing feat I know of, and the fact that I personally think most of the other MAD-reducing feats are underpowered doesn't negate that.
angellis_ater 02-17-06, 06:08 PM	Ok, my suggestions Soulknife Base Class: Even after everything we've done, I can't but feel that this idea, reworked as it has been, still deserves a Core Class. The questions is if this is at all feasable or if it would always be better to take a Fighter? Is it just me being slightly romantic when flipping through the XPH? Either way, people have suggested a "sneaky killer" variant and we've got ourselves a "mindarcher" variant. Perhaps we should be content with that? What do you think, should we update the Soulknife or not? Mindseye Acuity Why not JUST make it apply to ranged damage? Makes Zen Archery a feasable choice and limits the possible cheesiness. With that kind of errata we also take the guarded path with a possibly slightly underpowered feat (considering prerequisites and usage) instead of a slightly overpowered feat (as you have proven). Mindstorm PrC Did we get anywhere on deciding whether or not to add or remove any abilities from the last "build" or were we feeling pretty finished with it? Is the idea still interesting or have we lost our interest in it?
Kirech 02-18-06, 04:11 AM	Off the top of my head: Soulknife Base Class: Even after everything we've done, I can't but feel that this idea, reworked as it has been, still deserves a Core Class. The questions is if this is at all feasable or if it would always be better to take a Fighter? Is it just me being slightly romantic when flipping through the XPH? Either way, people have suggested a "sneaky killer" variant and we've got ourselves a "mindarcher" variant. Perhaps we should be content with that? What do you think, should we update the Soulknife or not? Fighter+Mindblade Feats makes Soulknife redundant, even if there are rules differences. Also, a 'sneaky killer' could just be a feat rogue, which counts its bonus feats as fighter feats Mindseye Acuity Why not JUST make it apply to ranged damage? Makes Zen Archery a feasable choice and limits the possible cheesiness. With that kind of errata we also take the guarded path with a possibly slightly underpowered feat (considering prerequisites and usage) instead of a slightly overpowered feat (as you have proven). An excellent suggestion, if you ask me. I don't consider it underpowered, since you keep the strength to damage. Mindstorm PrC Did we get anywhere on deciding whether or not to add or remove any abilities from the last "build" or were we feeling pretty finished with it? Is the idea still interesting or have we lost our interest in it? Did we add the 'counts as mindblade' feats? You guys seemed to like that idea. Last thing: do you think there should be an explicit rule stating that 'expend focus while making an attack'-type abilities cause the weapon mods to drop after the attack in question? Otherwise Psionic Shot is positively useless at higher levels, since weapon mods will be providing the equivalent of much more than 2d6 damage. If the RAW already accounts for this, then never mind.
angellis_ater 02-18-06, 04:30 AM	Perhaps we could just post a "Soulknife" Fighter build so people can emulate the original Soulknife class, together with a PsyWar variant and even a "Feat Rogue" Soulknife? -- Regarding Mindseye Acuity I think we can all agree that it feels pretty good with just applying to damage then? -- Did we add the 'counts as mindblade' feats? You guys seemed to like that idea. I believe it was molded into the "Mindseye Archery" class ability and repeated every 2 levels (so 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th) -- Last thing: do you think there should be an explicit rule stating that 'expend focus while making an attack'-type abilities cause the weapon mods to drop after the attack in question? Otherwise Psionic Shot is positively useless at higher levels, since weapon mods will be providing the equivalent of much more than 2d6 damage. If the RAW already accounts for this, then never mind. I think it would be a smart addendum, or atleast re-write it slightly to be "the round after you expend your psionic focus it looses all special abilities" or something to that effect.
angellis_ater 02-19-06, 08:21 AM	Idea for a couple of new feats! Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: As Shape Mindblade except that you can change the shape of your mindblade as a swift action instead of a full-round action. You can momentarily enhance the defensive ability of your mindblade by expending your psionic resources. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, the Defending special ability Benefit: You can spend power points to enhance the AC bonus granted by the Defending Special Ability. For every 2 power points you spend while using the special ability you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC until the beginning of your next round. When your mindblade strikes true your insight allow you to bring the advantage home and bring your opponent to his knees. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, the Keen special ability Benefit: You can spend power points to enhance your chance to confirm your critical hit when using the Keen special ability. For every power point you spend while using the special ability you gain a +1 insight bonus to CONFIRM your critical hit.
angellis_ater 02-20-06, 05:48 AM	Another feat Swift Imbuer Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Resonant Blade, Concentration 10 Benefit: You can now charge your mindblade with a psychic strike as a swift action. If you are wielding two or more mindblades, you can charge them all as a move action.
drunkenewok 02-20-06, 11:08 AM	Perhaps we could just post a "Soulknife" Fighter build so people can emulate the original Soulknife class, together with a PsyWar variant and even a "Feat Rogue" Soulknife?I'm not sure it's really necessary, since most people will probably make their own builds. <shrug> But if you feel like putting in the work, it's not that different from any of the other build-guides out there. :) Regarding Mindseye Acuity I think we can all agree that it feels pretty good with just applying to damage then?Fine by me. It's still pretty impressive, given that it stacks with Str bonus, letting a character exceed the normal stacking limitations, but it's not quite as uber as a double-stacking feat. I believe it was molded into the "Mindseye Archery" class ability and repeated every 2 levels (so 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th)We really need to get a semi-finalized write-up with all the various suggestions/changes. I'll try to put in some time on it, though there are enough different versions floating around in ether-space that it probably wouldn't hurt to see what y'all are thinking about too... :) I think it would be a smart addendum, or atleast re-write it slightly to be "the round after you expend your psionic focus it looses all special abilities" or something to that effect.I disagree, since I'd rather see the balance that the focus prereq confers be maintained. Assuming a relatively un-focused Mindstorm build with a +3/+3 mindblade bonus granting flaming holy arrows +3, the character can choose between his +3d6 (fire/holy) damage or the +2d6 (untyped) damage from psionic shot. Without spending feats on Energy Blade or Aligned Blade, the character doesn't even have access to either of the special abilities above, and the baseline special abilities (e.g. psychokinetic) aren't typically as powerful as Psionic Shot, and certainly not Greater Psionic Shot or Fell Shot. If the Mindstorm really wants to have all of the above, he can always spend a feat on Inner Focus. My comments on the new feats: Improved Shape Mindblade: Cool idea and useful ability, though I doubt it'll see much general adoption (since most mindbladers will settle on a single form, or at most two, via Mental Armory) Defender's Blade: Again, cool, useful. Maybe a touch underpowered in most cases, and I might consider adding some sort of limit on how many power points the character can spend for the few cases where it might be overwhelming Executor's Blade: This one does feel underpowered, since a character would be better served by the feat (whose name I can't recall) that gives an always available +4 bonus to confirm crits, and that feat is widely perceived as underpowered. I'd consider either "expend focus to auto-confirm", or a "+4 bonus on confirm rolls per power point spent", with the stipulation that the bonus only applies to increasing damage and not to any special non-damage ability the weapon might have (reducing potential vorpal synergy brokenness). (of course, since a character would need at least one Barb level, a lot of mindblade feats, and at least L24 to get vorpal and keen, and the char still needs a natural 20 to activate the vorpal ability, it might not be overwhelming to leave out the stipulation) Swift Imbuer - Sounds good... even though my cheese-meter is going off, it would require an incredibly unusual build to really take advantage of it. (something like a thri-kreen psy-war with "extra arms" granting the ability to wield 6 mindblades simultaneously, manifest hustle to charge his holy flaming/shock/frost shortswords +3, then perform a full-attack with 5d6+10d8 x6 (avg 375), repeat 1/rd)I'll wait a day or two for further comments before adding these to the full-list.
angellis_ater 02-20-06, 11:27 AM	We really need to get a semi-finalized write-up with all the various suggestions/changes. I'll try to put in some time on it, though there are enough different versions floating around in ether-space that it probably wouldn't hurt to see what y'all are thinking about too... :) I'll see if I can't dig up our latest table and edit in suggestions and ideas and then we can start adding/shaving from that! Be back tonight. I disagree, since I'd rather see the balance that the focus prereq confers be maintained. Assuming a relatively un-focused Mindstorm build with a +3/+3 mindblade bonus granting flaming holy arrows +3, the character can choose between his +3d6 (fire/holy) damage or the +2d6 (untyped) damage from psionic shot. Without spending feats on Energy Blade or Aligned Blade, the character doesn't even have access to either of the special abilities above, and the baseline special abilities (e.g. psychokinetic) aren't typically as powerful as Psionic Shot, and certainly not Greater Psionic Shot or Fell Shot. If the Mindstorm really wants to have all of the above, he can always spend a feat on Inner Focus. Good points all of them - it stays. :-) My comments on the new feats: Improved Shape Mindblade: Cool idea and useful ability, though I doubt it'll see much general adoption (since most mindbladers will settle on a single form, or at most two, via Mental Armory) Defender's Blade: Again, cool, useful. Maybe a touch underpowered in most cases, and I might consider adding some sort of limit on how many power points the character can spend for the few cases where it might be overwhelming Executor's Blade: This one does feel underpowered, since a character would be better served by the feat (whose name I can't recall) that gives an always available +4 bonus to confirm crits, and that feat is widely perceived as underpowered. I'd consider either "expend focus to auto-confirm", or a "+4 bonus on confirm rolls per power point spent", with the stipulation that the bonus only applies to increasing damage and not to any special non-damage ability the weapon might have (reducing potential vorpal synergy brokenness). (of course, since a character would need at least one Barb level, a lot of mindblade feats, and at least L24 to get vorpal and keen, and the char still needs a natural 20 to activate the vorpal ability, it might not be overwhelming to leave out the stipulation) Swift Imbuer - Sounds good... even though my cheese-meter is going off, it would require an incredibly unusual build to really take advantage of it. (something like a thri-kreen psy-war with "extra arms" granting the ability to wield 6 mindblades simultaneously, manifest hustle to charge his holy flaming/shock/frost shortswords +3, then perform a full-attack with 5d6+10d8 x6 (avg 375), repeat 1/rd)I'll wait a day or two for further comments before adding these to the full-list. Improved Shape Mindblade: It has come up during playtesting when one of the players asked - why can't I change as a swift action with a feat? So, since a player asked for it I guess it does have its uses. She goes from thrown longswords to spiked chain to bastardsword when fighting. Think IVY from Soul Calibur 3. Defender's Blade: We could add a general +1 dodge bonus to AC with this feat and allow it to be expanded on with power points? Executor's Blade: As above, we could give a general +4 bonus to confirming criticals and let them spend pp for higher OR autoconfirm? Swift Imbuer Yeah, but on the other hand the Thri-Kreen almost needs a little help with all the things they have going against them. :)
drunkenewok 02-20-06, 02:15 PM	Improved Shape Mindblade: It has come up during playtesting when one of the players asked - why can't I change as a swift action with a feat? So, since a player asked for it I guess it does have its uses. She goes from thrown longswords to spiked chain to bastardsword when fighting.See, if I were building the character, I'd have taken Mental Armory, which would allow the char to use thrown bastard swords (with one set of special abilities) and a spiked chain with a completely different set of special abilities, and the ability to switch between them as a swift action. Think IVY from Soul Calibur 3.Oddly enough, I have a character in my current campaign who's taking the same inspiration. :) Of course, hers is a special Legacy double-scimitar that can be transformed into a spiked chain (or back) with a move action. Defender's Blade: We could add a general +1 dodge bonus to AC with this feat and allow it to be expanded on with power points?Maybe it would be easier to use something like "While psionically focused, you double the bonus to AC that is granted by the defending special ability". That would be enough by itself, I think, but if you want, you could also add the ability to spend pp to add an additional point of two of dodge bonus. (Say spend 2pp as an immediate action to get a +1 til the start of your next action, and you can't spend more pp than 1/2 your character level?) Executor's Blade: As above, we could give a general +4 bonus to confirming criticals and let them spend pp for higher OR autoconfirm?I'm not sure granting autoconfirm without some attendent cost is a good idea. Maybe start with a +4 bonus to confirm crits OR you can spend 2pp to auto-confirm. I think expending focus is a better mechanic for this purpose than spending pp (since it's impossible to know how many pp a given build will have, while it's much easier to know maximums on focus), but it does make the feat substantially less useful unless you also have Inner Focus. (Maybe make that a prereq?) I know that keen is far from the strongest special ability you can add... let me run some numbers and see exactly how broken the autoconfirm/no-cost feat could make things...
angellis_ater 02-21-06, 05:17 AM	See, if I were building the character, I'd have taken Mental Armory, which would allow the char to use thrown bastard swords (with one set of special abilities) and a spiked chain with a completely different set of special abilities, and the ability to switch between them as a swift action. Well yeah, but she wants a Whip at 15 ft (for trips) and Spiked Chain at 10 ft for reach attacks and swords for throwing. Anyhow, as far as I see it if a player DOES ask for it, it shows atleast a minor need. Either that or we allow people with Soulblade Warrior & Shape Mindblade to change shape as a swift action? Could also work out. Oddly enough, I have a character in my current campaign who's taking the same inspiration. :) Of course, hers is a special Legacy double-scimitar that can be transformed into a spiked chain (or back) with a move action. Well, she IS one of the coolest female characters in any videogame if you ask me, so it ain't that surprising! :) Maybe it would be easier to use something like "While psionically focused, you double the bonus to AC that is granted by the defending special ability". That would be enough by itself, I think, but if you want, you could also add the ability to spend pp to add an additional point of two of dodge bonus. (Say spend 2pp as an immediate action to get a +1 til the start of your next action, and you can't spend more pp than 1/2 your character level?) Considering your idea about expending focus we can go that route instead. Double the AC bonus when using the Defending ability and let them expend focus to get an additional +2 AC. I'm not sure granting autoconfirm without some attendent cost is a good idea. Maybe start with a +4 bonus to confirm crits OR you can spend 2pp to auto-confirm. I think expending focus is a better mechanic for this purpose than spending pp (since it's impossible to know how many pp a given build will have, while it's much easier to know maximums on focus), but it does make the feat substantially less useful unless you also have Inner Focus. (Maybe make that a prereq?) Going with this we can give them +4 to confirm criticals and expend focus to auto-confirm. These feats by themselves make Inner Focus more useful but shouldn't be a prerequisite for these feats since it'll start defining "paths" that the Mindbladers can take. I know that keen is far from the strongest special ability you can add... let me run some numbers and see exactly how broken the autoconfirm/no-cost feat could make things... You do that, I've found your mathematical tinkering to be great for determining how good something might become. :-) Is this an interesting path to go with the feats? Do we need/want more feats or is this more than enough? I mean the two above could go a long way to inspire DMs and players to make their own variants.
drunkenewok 02-21-06, 01:24 PM	Well yeah, but she wants a Whip at 15 ft (for trips) and Spiked Chain at 10 ft for reach attacks and swords for throwing. Anyhow, as far as I see it if a player DOES ask for it, it shows atleast a minor need.Yeah, if you're using a lot of different shapes, the separate feat would probably be better. I just hadn't considered a build where the character changes that often... Either that or we allow people with Soulblade Warrior & Shape Mindblade to change shape as a swift action? Could also work out.That could work... but I think I prefer the separate feat, since "drawing" the mindblade and "shaping" the mindblade are two very distinct operations in my mind. Considering your idea about expending focus we can go that route instead. Double the AC bonus when using the Defending ability and let them expend focus to get an additional +2 AC.I actually think the pp expenditure as an immediate action to boost AC is a better fit mechanically. If we do stick with expending focus, I'm tempted to make the bonus a bit bigger (given all the prereqs), maybe +4? And the bonus only lasts until the start of your next turn. I suppose a character might be able to abuse the situation by expending focus on this ability, refocusing, and coupling some other AC boosters to get impregnable. e.g. a character using Combat Expertise to boost his AC (+5), using the full defending bonus from his mindblade (+10), and expending focus once per round (+4) would have a +19 to AC (that stacks with everything) for one round, at the expense of total -10 penalty to hit. You do that, I've found your mathematical tinkering to be great for determining how good something might become. :-)It doesn't look like the extra damage is anything to be too concerned over, since the most extra damage you deal with auto-confirm is +4-5, which is good compared to Weapon Specialization's +2, but you have to really tweak your weapon (i.e. get all the best crit-damage boosts) to get that high with auto-confirm. Most of the time it's +0-3. The area where it could be game-breaking is the "special" boosts that only happen on a crit, most notably the soulbreaker ability. A keen soulbreaker psychokinetic burst scimitar +5 would have a 5-30% (avg 26%) chance of dealing a negative level with every attack, compared to a 0-29% (avg 15%) chance without auto-crit. The Improved Critical feat gives similar overall numbers (0-43% chance of crit, avg 21%), but the auto-confirm feat scales a good bit faster and is more powerful overall, and you could (and most likely would) combine both feats for even greater potential effects. (Assuming you allow keen and ImpCrit to stack, as I usually do). By comparison, simply giving a +4 bonus to confirm gives numbers almost identical to ImpCrit (1-35% chance of crit, avg 20%). (The +4 bonus to confirm is a bit better against hard-to-hit targets, while ImpCrit is much better against the soft targets) I suppose we could put in a caveat that you still have to roll to confirm to deal any non-damage effect (i.e. vorpal, soulbreaker, et al), but that might make things too complicated. If we don't limit the special non-damage effects, I do tend to think that a no-cost auto-confirm is probably too powerful. Is this an interesting path to go with the feats? Do we need/want more feats or is this more than enough? I mean the two above could go a long way to inspire DMs and players to make their own variants.I have no problem adding more feats to the mix, so long as they are still viable and meaningful. Considering that adding feats seems to be fairly standard for d20-based game design, I don't see how adding more feats would be a bad thing in and of itself. As long as the quality of the feats remains reasonably high and we aren't just adding feats for the sake of adding feats, I'll be perfectly happy no matter how many we end up with.
angellis_ater 02-22-06, 03:35 AM	I actually think the pp expenditure as an immediate action to boost AC is a better fit mechanically. If we do stick with expending focus, I'm tempted to make the bonus a bit bigger (given all the prereqs), maybe +4? And the bonus only lasts until the start of your next turn. I suppose a character might be able to abuse the situation by expending focus on this ability, refocusing, and coupling some other AC boosters to get impregnable. e.g. a character using Combat Expertise to boost his AC (+5), using the full defending bonus from his mindblade (+10), and expending focus once per round (+4) would have a +19 to AC (that stacks with everything) for one round, at the expense of total -10 penalty to hit. The only thing that would make me leary is that such a character can still do other things besides attacking, like manifesting for example. On the other hand I personally don't see it as THAT gamebreaking since such a huge bonus would only come out of his mindblade at level 18 (for the +5 enhancement). I think that expend focus for +4 dodge bonus to AC is ok, we can go with that. Secondly I think that a +4 to confirming critical hits and expend focus to autoconfirm is ok, but with the following clause "but only for damage effects (not Vorpal, Soulbreaker - if you want these effects, roll as normal)"
drunkenewok 02-22-06, 12:09 PM	The only thing that would make me leary is that such a character can still do other things besides attacking, like manifesting for example. On the other hand I personally don't see it as THAT gamebreaking since such a huge bonus would only come out of his mindblade at level 18 (for the +5 enhancement).Well, you can't use Combat Expertise without making an attack, so if you're trying to manifest you'd be limited to +14 AC at the cost of ten feats (at least one of which is Defender's Blade) and focus 1/rd (or +10 if you leave out focus). While it's possible for a full-manifester to accomplish this, it does mean giving up most any other abilities. Couple that with a fully augmented inertial armor, thicken skin, force screen, and defensive precognition, the L18 Psion would have an AC of 59 (10 base + 13 armor + 7 natural + 8 shield + 7 insight + 14 unnamed) for up to one round/level at a cost of 74pp and focus 1/rd. Secondly I think that a +4 to confirming critical hits and expend focus to autoconfirm is ok, but with the following clause "but only for damage effects (not Vorpal, Soulbreaker - if you want these effects, roll as normal)"Honestly, the only reason I'd include the non-damage effects clause is if we make the feat auto-confirm at no cost. The simple +4 to confirm and expend to auto-confirm is fine even with vorpal/soulbreaker in the mix. You'd need both Executor's Blade and Inner Focus to use the autoconfirm, and without autoconfirm it's just like taking Power Critical.
angellis_ater 02-22-06, 04:25 PM	Ok - we keep +4 to critical, expend focus to autoconfirm on Executors Blade and go with the same "expend focus" ability boost with Defenders Blade. So, we feel pretty "done" with these two feats then? In that case would you mind formatting them correctly and entering them on your website? Does "Improved Shape Mindblade" work for you? Is it too weak (because that's the feeling I get from your comments)? We could add the ability to let the mindblader change it into any weapon he has seen, even Exotic weapons? Swift Imbuer could possibly be "abused" by a Psionic Totemist with Girallon Arms as far as I can see (4 blades) and the Thri-Kreen would get two more for their normal arms. Shouldn't be that increadibly powerful and I like improving the Incarnum-Psionics relationship even more.
MaverickWolf 02-22-06, 09:51 PM	OK, I know I haven't popped in for a while now, but I just looked at the updated feats and I have a few suggested changes: Mental Armory: Base the number of available forms on ranks in Concentration, and ditch the Concentration ranks requirement. I think it's a bit more fun than having to take a new feat for every form you want. Make it one form per 2 or 3 ranks in Concentration. Or maybe have it grant a new skill that's only for the Mindblade that replaces Concentration and can be used in place of Concentration for anything related to the mind blade. Enlightened Warrior, Mindseye Acuity, and Monastic Blade - Ditch the 'must meet all other prerequisites in here'. Otherwise, the only one a monk can actually take as a bonus feat is Monastic Blade, as the Concentration ranks are simply too high on the other two. Mindseye Acuity - The flavor text for this feat seems to say that you should be completely ignore physical scores. It should have you use your Wisdom bonus in place of your Dex/Str bonus for attack/damage, just like Enlightened Warrior. I think that's it for now. I might come up with more later.
angellis_ater 02-23-06, 09:24 AM	Enlightened Warrior, Mindseye Acuity, and Monastic Blade - Ditch the 'must meet all other prerequisites in here'. Otherwise, the only one a monk can actually take as a bonus feat is Monastic Blade, as the Concentration ranks are simply too high on the other two. As has been said before - multiclassing into Monk later than CHARACTER level 1 means these are open. The only one MEANT for level 1 characters IS Monastic Blade. I think allowing MORE than one shape as a swift action is WAY too good for the Mental Armory feat. In that case I´d rather go with the "Reassignment" feats from Dragon 341 and allow ANY kind of change with 10 minutes of concentration and then an improved version which allows it to be done as a standard action. Right now Mental Armory is powerful (since it's a swift action) AND usable, so I see no reason to make it better. Why break it if it ain't broken?
drunkenewok 02-23-06, 02:37 PM	Does "Improved Shape Mindblade" work for you? Is it too weak (because that's the feeling I get from your comments)? We could add the ability to let the mindblader change it into any weapon he has seen, even Exotic weapons?It's not so much that the feat is too weak, but that I'm not certain we need it. Given the prereqs, the only time it would be better to take Improved Shape Mindblade instead of Mental Armory is if the character has at least 3 forms that they switch between fairly often. I just don't know if it's prevalent enough to make a feat for it. Of course, since the very first playtest has a player wanting that ability, my reluctance is probably unwarranted. I don't think allowing the mindblader to change it to any shape he's seen is a good idea, unless we enforce the usual non-proficiency penalties, and that gets confusing with contradictory rules text. (i.e. a mindblader is always proficient with his mindblade, but isn't proficient in some special cases...) Another option is to ditch Mental Armory entirely, and use the Strategic/Tactical Reassignment feats from Dragon to handle changing special abilities on the fly. Then add Improved Shape Mindblade which lets you change weapon-shape as a swift action. (Or use the Mental Armory name for the improved feat). We could also incorporate MaverickWolf's suggestion to limit the number of immediately available shapes based on Concentration:Mental Armory You can recall certain mindblade shapes with a moment's thought. Prerequisites: Shape Mindblade Benefit: You can store a additional mindblades of any type that you could normally create. You can switch between your primary and secondary mindblade shapes as easily as you can materialize your primary mindblade. You can store one mindblade shape for every 4 ranks in Concentration you have. You can choose to materialize two different mindblade shapes and wield both simultaneously, but you are still limited by the number of blades you can physically hold and you take the normal -1 penalty to the enhancement bonus for wielding two Mindblades at the same time.The earliest you could pick it up is L6, assuming you had a feat to burn on Shape Mindblade at L5. Assuming you max Concentration, you could get access to 2 shapes at L6, and a maximum pre-epic count of 5 shapes. (you'd basically get a shape at L1 and every 4 levels thereafter, though you can't get the feat til L6) Swift Imbuer could possibly be "abused" by a Psionic Totemist with Girallon Arms as far as I can see (4 blades) and the Thri-Kreen would get two more for their normal arms.Without actually building the character, I can't really guess how broken it could be. I'll see if I can find time to put together a build, but my Incarnum skillz aren't all that sharp yet, so it may be sub-optimal in any case. Enlightened Warrior, Mindseye Acuity, and Monastic Blade - Ditch the 'must meet all other prerequisites in here'. Otherwise, the only one a monk can actually take as a bonus feat is Monastic Blade, as the Concentration ranks are simply too high on the other two.The main reason we've kept the pre-reqs is to prevent the uber-monk syndrome. Enlightened Warrior could be available as earlier as L2, and one of the monk's main balancing points (at least in theory) is that he suffers from MAD. I'm not sure I feel comfortable letting a monk circumvent that balance so easily. As for Mindseye Acuity, it was originally written to stack with physical mods, despite the flavor text contradiction. We've kinda decided to eliminate the bonus to attacks (to eliminate overlap with Zen Archery), and still allow it to stack with Str bonuses to damage. Given the benefit, I still think the prereqs are important to enforce for the monk. I suppose it might not be overwhelming to let the monk ignore the Concentration prereqs... and unless the monk has the feat prereqs, the abilities aren't as useful... let me ruminate a while longer, maybe try out a build or three.
angellis_ater 02-23-06, 02:58 PM	So you don't feel that it would be too powerful with multiple shapes? Granted the changes to Mental Armory solves all our problems without touching the Tactical/Strategic Reassignment feats from Dragon. -- If we are to allow the monk L2+L6 feats I am not sure if I'd be comfortable with giving him the ones we've got right now. In that case I'd rather see it like this: L1: Form Mindblade L2: Monastic Blade L6: Enlightened Warrior Thereby if we allow them to take these feats without prerequisites the Monk is getting Enlightened Warrior 3 levels early but still long enough into the build if you ask me. -- You haven't incorporated the D20SRD.org links yet, did I miss something? Wrong e-mail perhaps?
angellis_ater 02-24-06, 08:17 AM	Should we write up some fluff for all of the feats? Would be pretty nice, wouldn't you say? I can get on it over the weekend - feels more polished that way!
angellis_ater 02-26-06, 05:26 AM	I think the revised Mental Armory feat works out well without the need for an "Improved Shape Mindblade" but the name got me thinking on what an improved version of Shape Mindblade could entail beyond the swift change? I've been thinking like this: Mental Armory could let you set a number of special ability combinations, while Improved Shape Mindblade could allow you to change as a swift action. What do you think?
drunkenewok 02-27-06, 01:07 PM	I've been thinking like this: Mental Armory could let you set a number of special ability combinations, while Improved Shape Mindblade could allow you to change as a swift action. What do you think?Just so I'm clear, you're suggesting that Mental Armory would let you store an additional set of special abilities that you could change to as a full-round action (just like re-shaping your mindblade), and Improved Shape Mindblade would basically be the revised version I listed above (under the name of Mental Armory), plus the ability to change between stored special abilities as a swift action? Or is it more complicated than that? I'm kinda partial to using the Reassignment feats from Dragon Mag instead of Mental Armory, but that's mostly cause I've never been completely sold on it. It still allows a few things that the Reassignment feats don't (notably the ability to wield two weapons with different abilities on each), but I'm not sure we need to leave it open-ended (i.e. you can take it once, and any further customization can be done via Reassignment). You haven't incorporated the D20SRD.org links yet, did I miss something?Just haven't remembered to do it anytime I have the necessary resources to do it. I'll get done sooner or later. :)
angellis_ater 02-28-06, 09:33 AM	Just haven't remembered to do it anytime I have the necessary resources to do it. I'll get done sooner or later. :) But I sent you the source-code for it? Anyhow - lets throw out Mental Armory and re-write Tactical/Strategic Reassignment to fit our view. Let me try: "] You can reassign you mind blade's special abilities much more quickly. Prerequisites: Concentration 7 ranks, Form Mindblade Benefit: You can have two different sets of special abilities in both of your mindblades if you have more than one. You may reassign the special abilities of your mindblade after spending only 10 minutes in concentration and succeeding on a DC20 Concetration check. Normal: Reassigning special abilities requires 8 hours of concentration. "] You can attempt to reassign your mind blade's special abilities in the midst of combat. Prerequisites: Concentration 11 ranks, Strategic Reassignment, Form Mindblade Benefit: You may attempt to reassign the special abilities in your mind blade as a swift action. Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a DC 25 Concentration check. If an attack of opportunity deals any damage, your reassignment attempt fails. Normal: Reassigning special abilities requires 8 hours of concentration.
drunkenewok 02-28-06, 02:46 PM	But I sent you the source-code for it?Yeah, but I need a SFTP client to send files to my web-host, and I don't always have one handy except at home, and when I'm home I have 10,000 other projects constantly vying for my attention. :) In any case, I've put up your mods and added some extra links in the feat descriptions. Anyhow - lets throw out Mental Armory and re-write Tactical/Strategic Reassignment to fit our view.I'm not really sure they need a re-write. The only thing the Reassignment feats don't cover is allowing two different sets of special abilities at the same time, and switching as a swift action. Rather than try to shoe-horn those abilities into the Reassignment feats, we could either make a separate feat or push the abilities into Improved Shape Mindblade. Or simply leave the mindblader with the limitation that he can't have two different sets of special abilities on his mindblades at the same time. (which isn't that restrictive, imho, especially given everything else they can do now) But if you'd rather go with revisions: Focused Reassignment The wording is kinda confusing: if I only manifest a single blade, do I still get a different set of special abilities? What if I switch between paired shortswords and bastard sword? Do I get to pick which set goes on the bastard sword? I'm not sure the Concentration check is necessary. Spending 10 minutes is sufficient to make it a non-combat activity, and making it a risky proposition just seems like overkill to me. Swift Reassignment Swift actions almost never provoke AoOs (i.e. I can't think of single one that does), so it's a bit weird that this one does. If the Strategic version allows two sets of abilities, I think we could probably leave the in-combat version as a move action, provoking an AoO, and if you take damage, you don't get to reassign
angellis_ater 03-01-06, 05:11 AM	Variant feats of Tactical/Strategic Reassignment: The simple reason for wanting variants is: I do want the abilities given by the Dragon feats I do not wish to break copyright by copy-pasting them I want all the Mindblade feats together and available online for both our pleasure and other people to use A simple re-name might still be breaking copyright, therefore I was bouncing ideas to add to these ideas. Howsabout this for a variant (which I actually thought through) "] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 11 ranks Benefit: You can change the special abilities bound to your mindblade by meditating for 10 minutes instead of the usual 8 hours. If you expend your psionic focus, you can rearrange the special abilities as a move action which does provoke attacks of opportunity. This feat gives us the abilities of both tactical/strategic in one feat (making it slightly better) but requires expenditure of focus to do in combat meaning they need Inner Focus to retain the new special abilities (thus a larger weakness). It is also unavailable until lvl 8, meaning that its not as easy to get even for the basic 10 minute change. I think it feels balanced, what do you think? The above new feat also retains the use for Mental Armory as written allowing for swift changes and double-weapons variants. About toosigma.com: Oh sorry, don't wanna come off like a b*tch, whining like that. I quite understand, I was just worried you didn't get them.
drunkenewok 03-01-06, 10:56 AM	Improved Shape Mindblade [Psionic, Mindblade] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 11 ranks Benefit: You can change the special abilities bound to your mindblade by meditating for 10 minutes instead of the usual 8 hours. If you expend your psionic focus, you can rearrange the special abilities as a move action which does provoke attacks of opportunity.That could work, but I'm not sure I like granting the ability to change special abilities as a move action, whether or not it requires Inner Focus... Being able to change your special abilities that quickly is an enormous benefit, and without the "risk" associated with a skill check (a DC25 Concentration check isn't a sure thing until you're pretty high level or invest a lot of resources in getting your bonus up), it seems too easy. I'm also not sure that it fits under Shape Mindblade, since it doesn't really change the shape of the blade, but just the special abilities. Perhaps renaming it to "Reforge Mindblade" and changing the Shape Mindblade prereq to Inner Focus (or Soulblade Warrior?), and change the in-combat rearrange to a full-round action, I could see it working. I might also bump the Concentration prereqs a bit (12? 15?), though it can probably work as-is too... Oh sorry, don't wanna come off like a b*tch, whining like that. I quite understand, I was just worried you didn't get them.Don't sweat it. Sometimes I need a good swift kick to get something done... ;)
angellis_ater 03-01-06, 11:51 AM	But without expending focus a DC25 concentration check is easy as peach. You've already got atleast 11 ranks according to either feat, expend focus for a 15 on Concentration, add 11 and you get 26, you fix it by expending the focus. I simply shortened the process by making it "expend = move action". Your variant is actually BETTER, because I can change them even without having and expending focus... We can call it "Reforge Mindblade" but I still feel it is bound with changing the mindblade, thus the Shape Mindblade prerequisite which does exactly that, changes the mindblade. Neither Inner Focus or Soulblade Warrior involves any kind of changes to the mindblade, so Shape Mindblade comes the closest.
angellis_ater 03-04-06, 09:54 PM	So feedback goddarnit! :) Drunken - stop answering all the other interesting posts and get over here ;) The rest of you lot: Read and comment. Please. Pretty please with sugar on top?
angellis_ater 03-05-06, 08:40 AM	Here is the complete re-write of my idea, which I feel incorporates both your ideas and allows the user to expend focus to rearrange as a move action if they just keep their eyes on the rules. Reforge Mindblade [Psionic, Mindblade] Your understanding of how your mind affects the abilities of your mindblade and you can reforge them with less meditation. If necessary, you can even reforge it in the heat of battle but the intense concentration makes you an easy target. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 11 ranks Benefit: You can change the special abilities bound to your mindblade by meditating for 10 minutes instead of the usual 8 hours. You can rearrange the special abilities as a move action if you succeed on a Concentration DC25 check, but this provokes attacks of opportunity. -- We also need to decide what we are going to do with the Monks bonus feats?
angellis_ater 03-07-06, 07:09 PM	Comments please?
drunkenewok 03-08-06, 11:45 AM	Benefit: You can change the special abilities bound to your mindblade by meditating for 10 minutes instead of the usual 8 hours. You can rearrange the special abilities as a move action if you succeed on a Concentration DC25 check, but this provokes attacks of opportunity.I'd still like to see the rearrange be a full-round action. I was okay with Mental Armory being a swift action to change because you had to anticipate what your would need hours in advance, when you first assign abilities in the morning. Even then, unless you took the feat several times, you'd only have 2 sets of special abilities to choose from. Being able to completely change the special abilities to anything you happen to have on your special ability as a move action seems a bit too nice to me. I'd feel better with a full-round action that provokes AoOs, and any damage taken prevents the change. It basically replicates the need for most characters to spend a round buffing if they need access to some special ability, and I think that's a good thing. We also need to decide what we are going to do with the Monks bonus feats?Well, we could just leave them alone, since they really aren't broken as-is, and we just have to remind newcomers that they aren't always designed just for single-class Monks. Or we could change the text on Form Mindblade to allow a Monk to take it as a L1 bonus feat, Monastic Blade as the L2 feat, and Enlightened Warrior as the L6 feat. It's not strictly necessary, imho, but then again neither is any part of what we've done so far. We could also reduce or eliminate the prereqs for the feats when a Monk takes it as a bonus feat. If we do, I'd definitely want to limit which levels the Monk can take each feat so we don't have L1-2 Monks with Enlightened Warrior or Mindseye Acuity.
angellis_ater 03-08-06, 02:08 PM	*mutters* Right-o. Revise the changes in and I'll see if I agree. Personally I feel that you want to give out THREE large "stoppers" for anyone to try this: 1. A Full-round action doesn't even allow for a swift action or backing away. 2. A DC25 check can still be failed, especially if the user doesn't have Inner Focus. 3. An attack of opportunity by itself is a big tag down, but allowing any damage to screw with the reforging AS WELL? Why, oh why, would anyone take this feat and actually use it in combat? Use before combat you might say, but what are the incredible options available for a number of special abilities that would validate THIS feat over Mental Armory? Perhaps if they are taken by a Ranger with multiple "Blade of the Hunter" and change between the (max 5) different Banes available? Nah, sorry, but I cannot see a reason for nerfing this feat like that. I think it is fair as it is now, perhaps make it a standard action instead of a move action. The point of this feat is being able to adjust slightly for each encounter if necessary - with three nerfs NO-ONE is going to be able to do this in any way or form at level 8. Look at this: 1. Spend my round trying to reforge the mindblade 2. Try to succeed on the DC25 Concentration check (a +14 modifier is probable at this level (8) so that means a 45% chance to actually succeed) 2b. Expend your focus and spend the next round re-focusing. 3. Provoke an attack, whether or not you succeed on the above, and IF you actually succeed (pretty good chance) if someone manages to hit you, you still loose it. Supernerfed. --- When it comes to the Monk I suggest we allow them to take "Form Mindblade" as a Monk Bonus feat at lvl 1 PROVIDED the character is psionic, "Monastic Blade" at level 2 and "Enlightened Warrior" at lvl 6. The only "real" bonus would be the 6th level one.
drunkenewok 03-08-06, 03:46 PM	1. A Full-round action doesn't even allow for a swift action or backing away.Actually, you can use a swift action during a full-round action. It's treated just like a free-action, except you can only use one per round. You can also back away with a 5-ft. step or by using hustle. (I'm suggesting a full-round action, not 1 round casting time, which are different and often confused). I may be willing to consider making it a standard action, but I don't like the idea of changing the entire set of special abilities AND making an attack in the same round. 2. A DC25 check can still be failed, especially if the user doesn't have Inner Focus.If the character is willing to expend focus, you've already pointed out that it's impossible to fail at the level the character can first get the feat, and either Psionic Meditation or Inner Focus (or both) can mitigate the costs of expending focus. Even without expending focus, on average a character with max ranks in Concentration and no other bonuses is going to make a DC25 check more than 50% of the time by level 11. Any dedicated mindblader is almost always going to have max Concentration, and a great many will probably have decent Con and/or other bonuses to the check. By the time the character hits L20, he has less than a 10% chance of failure if he has max ranks and no other bonuses. Getting a 100% sure thing ability as a move action seems a bit too easy to me. 3. An attack of opportunity by itself is a big tag down, but allowing any damage to screw with the reforging AS WELL?I'm willing to concede on this one. I mainly added it because the official Tactical Reassignment feat had it. Given that this feat combines the effects of both Tactical and Strategic Reassignment, I didn't think it was a good idea to discard any of the limitations of either. I don't think the Reforge Blade is utterly nerfed with the damage restriction, but I also don't think it's overpowering without it. Why, oh why, would anyone take this feat and actually use it in combat? If you're not in melee, you don't suffer AoOs, or you may have a high enough AC you aren't really worried about AoOs If your current set of special abilities is useless or even counterproductive against the current enemies, and you have a set that would be absolutely devastating (e.g. trade flaming burst for anarchic against some chaotic fire-subtype creature - lose nothing, gain 2d6 per attack for the entire combat) Use before combat you might say, but what are the incredible options available for a number of special abilities that would validate THIS feat over Mental Armory?Maybe this is where the problem lies. I was under the impression that the new Mental Armory did not permit a different set of special abilities, and this feat was going to be the only means to avoid the 8-hour change time. Even if Mental Armory does allow a second set of abilities, I'd still be tempted to put hefty restrictions on the Reforge Blade feat, because any special abilities assigned via Mental Armory had to be set first thing in the morning (or earlier). As such, it's much less likely to be an optimal configuration for the battle at hand. Consider a ranger who has taken Ghost Hunter and Blade of the Hunter, but currently has his blade setup as a semi-generic psychokinetic drow-bane collision bastard sword +4. If he runs into a bunch of incorporeal undead, he could just attack, dealing an average 9.5 damage per attack (1d10 + 1d4 + 5 + 4 = 17 + 50% miss chance = 9.5). Or he could sacrifice one round to Reforge his blade into a undead bane ghost touch bastard sword of disruption +4, dealing an average of 18.5 damage per attack (1d10 + 2d6+2 + 4 = 18.5) PLUS forcing a DC14 Will save to avoid destruction? Or maybe a Paladin who usually keeps a holy keen longsword +3, but he runs up against a construct. Do you spend X rounds pounding away doing 7.5 damage? Or do you spend a round to Reforge to a psychokinetic collision longsword +3 and deal 15 damage per attack, cutting in half the time the construct has to pound you into mush? Or a vanilla mindblader who usually keeps a pair of keen psychokinetic burst shortswords +2, and one of the other PCs is dominated and ordered to attack. Do you take the -4 penalty to attacks to deal subdual damage or Reforge into a pair of merciful suppression shortswords +2, dealing subdual automatically and getting 1 targetted dispel per attack (potentially 2-8 times per round)? I just think that kind of adaptability should have a pretty hefty price tag attached. When it comes to the Monk I suggest we allow them to take "Form Mindblade" as a Monk Bonus feat at lvl 1 PROVIDED the character is psionic, "Monastic Blade" at level 2 and "Enlightened Warrior" at lvl 6. The only "real" bonus would be the 6th level one.Definitely a good call on the "must be psionic" for Form Mindblade, and shouldn't be hard to edit in. The rest looks okay, at least to me.
angellis_ater 03-08-06, 06:28 PM	Some valid points. Hows this for a "middle-ground" for the both of us? "] Your understanding of how your mind affects the abilities of your mindblade and you can reforge them with less meditation. If necessary, you can even reforge it in the heat of battle but the intense concentration makes you an easy target. Prerequisites: Form Mindblade, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 11 ranks Benefit: You can change the special abilities bound to your mindblade by meditating for 10 minutes instead of the usual 8 hours. You can rearrange the special abilities in full-round action with a DC25 Concentration-check which provokes attacks of opportunity. I've conceded the full-round action, but kept the rest. -- Will you edit in the correct "usage" for the Monk feats. BTW - are we satisfied with the remaining new feats I suggested? Here are the complete write-ups as far as I can remember and piece together from our discussions: "]Your experience with your mindblade and its malleable form allows you to change the form and function of your mindblade in a moments notice. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Soulblade Warrior, Shape Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks Benefit: As Shape Mindblade except that you can change the shape of your mindblade as a swift action instead of a full-round action. "]You can momentarily enhance the defensive ability of your mindblade by expending your psionic resources. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Defending special ability Benefit: While psionically focused you double the bonus to AC provided by the Defending special ability. If you expend your focus you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC for one round. "]When your mindblade strikes true your insight allow you to bring the advantage home and bring your opponent to his knees. Prerequisite: Form Mindblade, Keen special ability Benefit: While psionically focused you gain a +4 insight bonus to confirm a critical threat. If you expend focus, you automatically confirm your threat.
drunkenewok 03-08-06, 08:17 PM	Some valid points. Hows this for a "middle-ground" for the both of us?Works for me. :D Will you edit in the correct "usage" for the Monk feats. BTW - are we satisfied with the remaining new feats I suggested? Here are the complete write-ups as far as I can remember and piece together from our discussions:Everything looks good to me. I'll try to get the edits and new feats up soon, though you might have to crack the whip if I get side-tracked again. :)
angellis_ater 03-09-06, 05:56 AM	*pulls out the whip and starts training* "Always keep an ey' on them slaves or they'll never do what they're suppos'to! Sure thing! So, its back to the Mindseye Archer now then?
angellis_ater 03-12-06, 04:19 PM	*whips* Get them feats (and the Meditant as well) up on your site! ;-) I've been thinking about the Mindseye Archer and this came up: We can use the Mindblade mechanic to our advantage. Instead of handing out a general "+1" at each level, we can designate certain abilities to count as a [Mindblade] feat. For example, we want Morphic Arrow I and II, both could count as Mindblade feats. We want "Mindseye Archery" which allows the user to fire his BAB amount of mindarrows through the use of his crystal hilt AND get a few more special abilties. This could also count as a mindblade feat. See? In this way, we lessen the wordcount and make it slimmer!
drunkenewok 03-15-06, 09:35 PM	Got the Mindblade Feats (http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade.php) and the Meditant (http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/prestigeClasses/meditant.php) online. I did some reorganization, so you'll need to change the links in the original post. Good call on the Mindstorm abilities... Now we just need to post a full set of abilities and get things finalized. I'll try to get it done at some point, but we both know I'm terribly reliable. :D
angellis_ater 03-16-06, 09:40 AM	Excellent to see it all online!
Vykos 03-17-06, 05:22 PM	Hey, great topic, if i knew it was there i wouldn't have opened one like this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605919)
angellis_ater 03-18-06, 03:54 PM	Feel free to add Incarnum-based ideas for the Mindblade feat-tree. It is, by its very definition, extremely flexible and allows for loads of interesting abilities and ideas to be put forth! So come on, bring your Mindblade Incarnum feats! I'll happily help to playtest and comment them!
angellis_ater 03-21-06, 07:34 AM	Anyone have any ideas regarding Incarnum-based mindblade feats? Preferably someone with a little more experience with incarnum?
angellis_ater 04-07-06, 04:29 PM	Ok - so Incarnum rocked about zero boats out there. Fine with me, I'll write some up since I have a few ideas, but that's for later. NOW, the latest thing here is that Complete Psionics is OUT! In the preview we've got ourselves the Soulbow, which happens to jive pretty well with ideas me and DrunkenEwok had earlier about the Mindseye Archer - so, if atleast someone else is interested I would be very much into converting the Soulbow into more Mindblade feats!
angellis_ater 04-13-06, 01:46 PM	Going with the Complete Psionic excerpt I feel we should start with "porting" the Soulbow into a subset feat-tree of the Mindblade Feats. Mind Arrow [Mindblade] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot Benefit: You can fire a Mindblade Arrow (range 110 feet, damage 1d8+Wis modifier (1d6 for Small creatures and 2d6 for Large creatures)) for each attack you could normally perform due to your Base Attack Bonus. Close Combat Mindarrow [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot, Mind Arrow Benefit: You can fire one or more Mindblade Arrow in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity. Phase Arrow [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot, Mind Arrow Benefit: You can take a full attack action (in lieu of your regular attacks) to expend your psionic focus and launch a Mindblade Arrow at a target known to you within range. The Mindblade Arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical or nonpsionic barrier or wall on its way. (A wall of force, wall of fire, wall of ectoplasm, or the like stops a Mindblade Arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using these as the "base" we need to determine Concentration ranks for all of them and then I suggest we "add on" our earlier ideas like Mindstorm.
drunkenewok 04-13-06, 06:40 PM	Looks pretty good so far. I haven't gotten my copy of CP yet, but I hope to mine it for some more interesting ideas. Though, honestly, I think we've pretty close to tapped the potential for this system.
angellis_ater 04-14-06, 05:46 AM	I would have to agree, I don't feel we can do that much more with the system - BUT, with the new Soulknife Prestige Classes and feats like Mind Cleave I feel we should finish the work. :) Mind Cleave works as written, we only need to exchange the "class abilities" with our feats. Mind Cleave Prerequisite: Resonant Blade, Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it fall (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) with your mindblade, you drain off a portion of the creature's liberated energy of consciousness. The liberated energy automatically charges the blade used to fell the foe as if you had charged it for your Resonant Blade.
angellis_ater 04-18-06, 08:48 AM	Comments please? With the above feats, a quick conversion of any other Mindblade feats and the Illumine Soul we can consider ourselves finished with this project. Doesn't that sound nice? Fiiiiiniiiished. :)
angellis_ater 04-19-06, 05:23 AM	Ok - from what I've gathered there is a feat which allows you to charge your Mindblade with a Psychic Strike as a swift action. We've already done that one. Then we have the 4 exotic weapons, which we've ALSO already done via the updated Shape Mindblade feat. So, what's left from Complete Psionic for the Soulknife? Mind Strike, Focused? Anyone wanna share what it does? The idea I am getting is a bonus to Psychic Strike while being Psionically Focused, which I guess works.
angellis_ater 04-20-06, 04:42 PM	So, here are my remade Mind Empowerment and updated Mind Blade, Focused. I know they both need an overlook and some fixing both in how they are phrased and their actual powers. Mind Empowerment Prerequisite: Resonant Blade, Form Mindblade, Mind Cleave, Concentration 6 ranks Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it fall (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) with your mindblade, you capture a larger portion of the creature's liberated energy of consciousness (in excess to that drained by Mind Cleave). The additional energy resides within your mindblade for 3 rounds or until you make a successful attack - doing an additional +1d8 damage as if you hade taken Resonant Blade one more time. Focused Resonance Prerequisites: Resonant Blade, Form Mindblade, Concentration 8 ranks Benefit: If you expend your psionic focus while attacking with your mindblade you double the damage die rolled from a charge of Resonant Blade. --- Finally, regarding the powers of the Mindblade being connected to actual size has led to some interesting problems in my game. One player has the Oversized Mindblade feat and normally uses Expansion to become Large during fights. Her Mindblade (greatsword) does a whooping 4d6+alot. Therefore I would suggest that ALL mindblade sizes and damages are for a "Medium" creature and the only way to upgrade the damage is by buying Oversized Mindblade. This gives a benefit to all Small characters, getting a "better" variant of their own weapons and penalizes larger characters, but this is an effect I feel is better than allowing its damage to change with size (which in itself is pretty strange considering that it is part of a persons mind).
drunkenewok 04-20-06, 05:50 PM	The new feats look okay, though I might bump the Concentration prereqs on Mind Empowerment and Focused Resonance up a bit. As is, they're available at L3 and L5 respectively, and that seems kinda early to me. I'm also not sure that we can import them directly, since I vaguely recall that we were somewhat lenient with Resonant Blade scaling... Looking back, a character with at least 11 feats (Form Mindblade, Resonant Blade x7, Mind Cleave, Focused Resonance, Psionic Meditation) could be dealing 7d8 (avg. 31) extra damage per attack, with an easy recharge, and the option to expend focus for +14d8 (avg. 63). Not sure it's broken, but it's definitely powerful. Finally, regarding the powers of the Mindblade being connected to actual size has led to some interesting problems in my game. One player has the Oversized Mindblade feat and normally uses Expansion to become Large during fights. Her Mindblade (greatsword) does a whooping 4d6+alot.The trick is, this is replicable with a non-mindblade build: using a greatsword, PsyWar X + expansion, and the Monkey Grip feat. I can see if you're allowing her to throw the greatsword as an attack action (instead of the usual full-round action for a 2h-weapon) or if you're allowing a metamorphosis-d character to get the size boost, it could be seriously scary, but in this case it's simply a player who has done her homework in optimizing damage. Given that it's likely the player has sacrificed other useful feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Powerful Charge) in order to beef up her mindblade, it's probably a wash. I'm not saying you can't house-rule the change, but I'm not sure it should go into the default setup. If it helps, consider that an expanded PsyWar 11 with claws of the beast gets comparable damage.
angellis_ater 04-23-06, 03:44 PM	The new feats look okay, though I might bump the Concentration prereqs on Mind Empowerment and Focused Resonance up a bit. As is, they're available at L3 and L5 respectively, and that seems kinda early to me. I just threw out a number so we wouldn't forget to add the ranks. For Focused Resonance I would even suggest that we add "Resonant Blade [x3]" to the prerequisite to show the necessary understanding you need for it. That would also push up the Concentration ranks to atleast 9 but I'd go with 10. I'm also not sure that we can import them directly, since I vaguely recall that we were somewhat lenient with Resonant Blade scaling... Looking back, a character with at least 11 feats (Form Mindblade, Resonant Blade x7, Mind Cleave, Focused Resonance, Psionic Meditation) could be dealing 7d8 (avg. 31) extra damage per attack, with an easy recharge, and the option to expend focus for +14d8 (avg. 63). Not sure it's broken, but it's definitely powerful. Which can only be attained at level 18, at which time Psions, Wizards and Clerics can flood save-or-dies and do alot more. And that did NOT cost them 11 feats. The trick is, this is replicable with a non-mindblade build: using a greatsword, PsyWar X + expansion, and the Monkey Grip feat. I can see if you're allowing her to throw the greatsword as an attack action (instead of the usual full-round action for a 2h-weapon) or if you're allowing a metamorphosis-d character to get the size boost, it could be seriously scary, but in this case it's simply a player who has done her homework in optimizing damage. Given that it's likely the player has sacrificed other useful feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Powerful Charge) in order to beef up her mindblade, it's probably a wash. Yeah I know, but the problem is that the player is a first-time player without intricate knowledge of the rules. That means that these feats are the obvious best choices, even for a newbie. Somehow that makes it feel a little too good for me at first glance. At level 9 she's sporting 4d6+19 when she's Large with her Mindblade and with two attacks or Bladewind she does horrible amounts of damage. Granted, she plays it smart (Hustle to the perfect position and then Bladewind, rinse and repeat). As I said, it might be because I don't have intimate knowledge of better ways of doing horrendeous amounts of damage as a Fighter-type. Please feel free to enlighten me. I'm not saying you can't house-rule the change, but I'm not sure it should go into the default setup. If it helps, consider that an expanded PsyWar 11 with claws of the beast gets comparable damage. Yeah, but that does cost atleast 12-14 power points... But your point has been pretty well made there.
angellis_ater 05-05-06, 08:34 AM	Well, comments? Ideas? Concentration Ranks for feats?
FriendlyBiscuit 05-05-06, 08:56 AM	Are all of your ideas, revisions, and other folks' ideas that you liked arranged in the first post now?
Ra-Tiel 05-05-06, 11:20 AM	Hi. === [...] That would also push up the Concentration ranks to atleast 9 but I'd go with 10. What's wrong with 9? 9 is a nice number! :cloud9: :D --- Which can only be attained at level 18, at which time Psions, Wizards and Clerics can flood save-or-dies and do alot more. And that did NOT cost them 11 feats. But clerics and wizards do not have save-or-dies in unlimited supply. Each finger of death or slay living prepared reduces their flexibility and utility for the rest of the day. And if a particular target made its save, the caster's out of luck - unless he has prepared the spell a second (or even third) time. --- Yeah I know, but the problem is that the player is a first-time player without intricate knowledge of the rules. That means that these feats are the obvious best choices, even for a newbie. Somehow that makes it feel a little too good for me at first glance. At level 9 she's sporting 4d6+19 when she's Large with her Mindblade and with two attacks or Bladewind she does horrible amounts of damage. Granted, she plays it smart (Hustle to the perfect position and then Bladewind, rinse and repeat). Imho feats should never be balanced against a "newbie player". For the very same reason why a power or spell should not be exclusively balanced at lower levels (sleep) or at higher levels (power word: pain :waits: ): it only creates balance issues. If the feats are "ok" with a "newbie player", "so-so" with an average player, but "ZOMFG!!!one!1eleven!" with an experienced/power player, then there's something wrong with the feats and they should be carried back to the drawing boards. --- As I said, it might be because I don't have intimate knowledge of better ways of doing horrendeous amounts of damage as a Fighter-type. Please feel free to enlighten me. [...] As you wish. :) First the basics: you need CWar and CAdv. If you allow it, Unapproachable East (FR) is nice, but surely not required. Everything else is just icing on the cake. The most simple combination includes: Power Attack (PHb) Leap Attack (CAdv) Combat Brute [Tactical] (CWar) Shock Trooper [Tactical] (CWar) Ok, now things get interesting. Assuming a level 12 human fighter with a base strength of 16, we add 4 points for a belt of giant strength and 2 additional points for attribute increases for levels. Now we're looking at a strength of 22/+6. Let's say our fighter uses just a +2 greatsword and has both Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization. This brings his full attack routine up to +22/+17/+12 for 2d6+15 points of damage with each hit. Now we add our feats: Power Attack - we add 2 points of damage for each point we substract from our attack roll (eg -5 to hit, +10 damage) Leap Attack - if we charge our opponent and jump the last 10ft, we double our extra damage from Power Attack Combat Brute [Tactical] - if we charge our opponent in the first round, and take at least a -5 penalty on our attack in the second round with Power Attack, we again add 100% of what Power Attack would usually add to the damage Shock Trooper [Tactical] - if we charge our opponent, we can substract the penalties from Power Attack from our AC instead of our attack roll So, let's say we're using a -5 penalty on our attack rolls. In the first round we charge and make that jump check (which shouldn't be a real problem by level 12), so Leap Attack and Shock Trooper kick in, allowing us to double the extra damage and apply the penalties to our AC, resulting in a single attack that hits with +24 (charge bonus included) and deals 2d6+35 points of damage. In the second round, Combat Brute is active and gives us the following full attack: +17/+12/+7 with each hit dealing 2d6+35 points of damage. So, in two rounds we just dealt 4 attacks with each attack dealing 2d6+35 points of damage, for a possible total damage of 8d6+140, average 168. As said, that is the very basic layout for this. A half-orc barbarian does the trick even better, because he very likely has a much higher strength to play around with. And the best thing is: we didn't use any item or ability that is limited by the numbers of uses per day, so we theoretically could do that in every single combat the whole freaking day long. Finally, I didn't even include any other magical equipment like "boots of haste", or ioun stones, or spells/items that increase our fighter's size category (which alone has the potential to push the damage to far above 200). Is this explanaition sufficient? ;) === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
drunkenewok 05-05-06, 11:48 AM	@FriendlyBiscuit - The final revisions of the bulk of the thread's ideas are posted at http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade.php Which can only be attained at level 18, at which time Psions, Wizards and Clerics can flood save-or-dies and do alot more. And that did NOT cost them 11 feats.Not necessarily true. A Human (or Psi-race) Fighter 8/Monk 2 can have the necessary 11 feats at ECL 10. I don't think it's broken by itself (since there are other means of dealing comparable damage at around ECL10), but it could lend a lot of oomph to other combos at higher levels. Other than the fact that I think the Soulbow is a decidely "blah" and uninteresting class, and the feats we're importing to replicate its abilities likewise have the taste and appeal of soggy cardboard, I think the new feats are pretty good. I'd much rather continue development of the Mindseye Archer, because I prefer the flavor and the crunch, but I can do that on my own time. As for finalizing the new feats: Mind Empowerment [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Resonant Blade, Form Mindblade, Mind Cleave, Concentration 8 ranks. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it fall (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) with your mindblade, you capture a larger portion of the creature's liberated energy of consciousness (in excess to that drained by Mind Cleave). The additional energy resides within your mindblade for 3 rounds or until you make a successful attack - doing an additional +1d8 damage as if you hade taken Resonant Blade one more time. Focused Resonance [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisites: Resonant Blade (x2), Form Mindblade, Concentration 12 ranks. Benefit: If you expend your psionic focus while attacking with your mindblade you double the damage dice rolled from a charge of Resonant Blade. Mind Cleave [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Resonant Blade, Form Mindblade, Concentration 6 ranks. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it fall (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) with your mindblade, you drain off a portion of the creature's liberated energy of consciousness. The liberated energy automatically charges the blade used to fell the foe as if you had charged it for your Resonant Blade. Mind Arrow [Mindblade] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot Benefit: You can fire a Mindblade Arrow (range 110 feet, damage 1d8+Wis modifier (1d6 for Small creatures and 2d6 for Large creatures)) for each attack you could normally perform due to your Base Attack Bonus. Close Combat Mindarrow [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot, Mind Arrow, Concentration 12 ranks. Benefit: You can fire one or more Mindblade Arrows in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity. Phase Arrow [Mindblade, Psionic] Prerequisite: Throw Mindblade, Point Blank Shot, Mind Arrow, Concentration 15 ranks. Benefit: You can take a full attack action (in lieu of your regular attacks) to expend your psionic focus and launch a Mindblade Arrow at a target known to you within range. The Mindblade Arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical or nonpsionic barrier or wall on its way. (A wall of force, wall of fire, wall of ectoplasm, or the like stops a Mindblade Arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.I've basically just added the Mindblade and/or Psionic descriptors where I felt appropriate, and added Concentration ranks to each ability, with the general intention of making them available at about the same level that a "normal" soulknife build could gain access to them. One random thought re:Close Combat Mindarrow - as currently written, the ability will only work for Mindarrows, and not for Thrown mindblades. I don't think it's necessary to extend it, but I don't think it would hurt much, either. Also, after re-reading the Throw Mindblade feat, I believe we currently have a loop-hole that I'd like to close. Based on the normal rules, a character can only throw a two-handed weapon as a full-round action, and the Throw Mindblade feat currently allows the character to throw such a blade as a an attack action. I'd like to amend the "Special" section of the description to the following:Throw Mindblade [Mindblade] Prerequisites: Form Mindblade Benefit: The mindblade can now sustain itself for a short duration once it leaves your hand. It counts as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. Whether or not the attack hits, a thrown mindblade then dissipates. Special: If you have the Soulblade Warrior feat and your mindblade can be wielded one-handed, you can throw a number of mindblades per round equal to the number of melee attacks you could make, and can intersperse melee attacks and thrown attacks during a single full attack action. This counts as a swift action and is an exception to how manifesting your Mindblade normally works.Last, given the new sidebar allowing Free Draw to count as Quick Draw for the purposes of prereq qualifications, I'd like to add a "Special" block to Soulblade Warrior granting the same allowance. Assuming no one has any other major suggestions, I'll try to get these posted to the "official" version asap.
angellis_ater 05-05-06, 03:12 PM	Ra-Tiel: Ok, I've been overproven. My main point was that some "choices" were just so obvious that even the newbie player made them but your post and a friend of mine pointed out worse things. (That greatsword being made of deep crystal and in the hands of someone with Greater Psionic Weapon...) drunkenewok: Ok, lets say we give a "go" to all the added feats and the revisions you made to earlier feats. This gives us a chance to discuss the Mindseye Archer and the current Mind Arrow feats. Is there some interesting middle ground? The reason I just went with the Soulbow-as-feats is for consistency and because there has been very little development of the Mindseye Archer lately. I was taking a guess people had lost interest in both this thread and the concept and therefore I made my (faulty) assumption. The most important question "as-is" for me is if we should retain the focus of the Mindseye Archer as a Prestige Class, or if we should try to keep with the Soulbow feats and make it a feat chain. I personally feel we probably could (and should) keep some variant of the Soulbow feats but make it a Prestige Class. As of lately I've been thinking about the Illumine Soul and coming to the conclusion that we could make a re-write for it to make it fit with our concepts alot easier. I've also been throwing around the idea of a Paladin PrC for a Mindblader and somehow that idea and the Illumine Soul could come together VERY well. Interested? Oh, make sure to save all those nice write-ups since we'll be reset May 15th.
Ra-Tiel 05-05-06, 03:51 PM	Hi. === Ra-Tiel: Ok, I've been overproven. My main point was that some "choices" were just so obvious that even the newbie player made them but your post and a friend of mine pointed out worse things. (That greatsword being made of deep crystal and in the hands of someone with Greater Psionic Weapon...)[...] LOL. But there are even more means to optimize that without resorting to crazy multiclassing. Just imagine the fighter from my previous post also had Battle Jump from "Unapproachable East" (a FR supplement). This feat allows you to drop from more than 5ft on an enemy and have your attack thus count as a charge. This melee attack then deals double the normal damage. To combine that with Leap Attack we'd need to succeed on a DC 20 jump check (because with that, we're 5ft above the opponent and thus the feat would trigger). Also, a closer look at the math shows that on the initial charge attack we can Power Attack for the maximum, because of Shock Trooper the penalty comes off of the AC, not the attack bonus. So.. this all means that the initial charge attack would still hit with a +24 bonus, but inflicted a whopping 4d6+126 points of damage. Add in a single enlarge person and we're looking at +25 to hit and 6d6+128 points of damage. Now make the character a kalashtar or other LA +0 and naturally psionic race and give him Greater Psionic Weapon and the lucky target must face a hit with +25 to hit and 10d6+128 points of damage. Not bad, I'd say. --- Another possibility would be to tweak out claws of the beast. The various "king/prime minister/president of smack" builds have done just that. At ML 19 the power gives you 2 claw attacks that each deal 5d6 base damage. Now add in Improved Natural Attack (claw) (-> 5d8) and expansion augmented for +2 size categories (-> 15d6). Assuming base strength 16, +6 belt, +4 book, +4 level, +4 size, at level 20 we're looking at claw attacks with - at least - +27 to hit and 15d6+12 points of damage. Also, not quite bad for a simple build using only 2 powers and 1 feat. I don't know the record, but I seem to remember that the latest "president of smack" stopped at around 60d6+164 points of damage with each claw... or something like that, although I might be off here as I had not visited the CO boards for a very long time by now. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 05-07-06, 04:10 AM	*shudders at the mere thoughts* It's horrible tales like these that make me write all-diplomatic/social adventures where the use of weapons will lead to "overbearing forces" decimating you. Permanently. :) But seriously boys, you've overproven me, ALOT. It wasn't the damage potential I was afraid of, rather it was that some choices seemed so obvious (in terms of power) even the supernoobs would take them. Now I see that the problem seems to be Expansion, not the original source of damage.
Ra-Tiel 05-07-06, 04:57 AM	Hi. === *shudders at the mere thoughts* :blink: :rofl: --- It's horrible tales like these that make me write all-diplomatic/social adventures where the use of weapons will lead to "overbearing forces" decimating you. Permanently. :) But you know, diplomacy is just as bad, if not even worse. :P Like in "Bard 8/Marshall 1/Warlock 1". Assuming base charisma of 16, +2 levels, +4 item, we're looking at a diplomacy modifier of Ranks: +13 Cha: +6 Feat: +3 (Skill Focus) Invocation: +6 (Beguiling influence) Aura: +6 ("Motivate Charisma" again adds the marshall's Cha mod to all Cha checks and Cha-based checks) Item: +3 (cirlcet of persuasion) Total: +37 Average check result: 48, minimum check result: 38. Diplomacy DC to change attitude "hostile" to "friendly": 35. Success: 100% Diplomacy DC to change attitude "hostile" to "indifferent" in one full round: 35. Success: 100% --- But seriously boys, you've overproven me, ALOT. It wasn't the damage potential I was afraid of, rather it was that some choices seemed so obvious (in terms of power) even the supernoobs would take them. I know what you mean. But some things can only be found out in actual play - like the warlock being not overpowered as is. --- Now I see that the problem seems to be Expansion, not the original source of damage. Not only expansion, but imho every feat, spell, power, item, ability that easily and repeatedly allows PCs to wield weapons larger than their own size (+1 for two-handed) for a longer time. It just spells doom for balance, because no author at WotC checks his works with material from outside the Core3, which in return leads to abominations like the Hulking Hurler who can sling around an adamantine sphere weighting dozens of tons and dealing like what? 12 million d6 points of damage? :nonono: In my opinion, things like Powerful build, Jotunbrut, Monkey Grip, and the extra augmentation on expansion should be banished from the face of Earth and cast down into the Abyss! :rant: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Sithobi1 05-07-06, 05:27 AM	Ra-Tiel: You do not deserve the name of the Soul Reaver if you have such an unoptimized build! 3rd level 100% success at changing anyone from Hostile to Helpful in 1 full round action. I really like the class, and I don't think it's Expansion that's the problem, but that the size increases stack. And I dislike monkey grip on general principle. Expansion is a relatively short-term buff, not the main problem.
Ra-Tiel 05-07-06, 10:40 AM	Hi. === Ra-Tiel: You do not deserve the name of the Soul Reaver if you have such an unoptimized build! 3rd level 100% success at changing anyone from Hostile to Helpful in 1 full round action. [...] The name you are looking for is Raziel, not Ra-Tiel. "Soul Reaver" was the name of the waved blade Kain wielded. My nick was primarily inspired by Ra, the ancient Egypt's sun god. There are rethorical means to make it sound less insulting. I wanted to show that without referring to some loop-hole or triple-stacking you can get quite high a diplomacy modifier with material almost every DM would probably allow. I'm sure you can provide a build to your statement regarding the limitations I worked under in (5.) ? === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 05-07-06, 01:23 PM	That might be so, but atleast my players aren't that comfortable with Skill Abuse and I also use the Diplomacy from "Giant in the Playground" (Rich Burlew) since I find that alot more understandable and applicable. Now, lets return to the Mindblade feats in question. Does anyone have any response to the newest additions (found at page 9) and want to comment on them?
Ra-Tiel 05-07-06, 03:52 PM	Hi. === That might be so, but atleast my players aren't that comfortable with Skill Abuse and I also use the Diplomacy from "Giant in the Playground" (Rich Burlew) since I find that alot more understandable and applicable. Me not either, but in my opinion the game should be playable with all rules and material right out of the books. And that obviously is not the case with DnD. How would you like it if your car's breaks just stopped working because of your new CD player? :thinks: The main problem is that new supplements are only tested with and balanced against the Core3, not taking in account any other supplements. That leads to horrible balance and stacking issues, like those we have seen on the "H.I.V.E", the "Twice-Betrayer of Shar", the "Dweomer-Cheater of Mystra", the "Hulking Hurler", and the "President of Smack". Also, my FR DM also uses Rich's reworked diplomacy skill because - as you've said - it is much more reasonable, makes more sense, and is less prone to abuse (intended or accidentally). --- Now, lets return to the Mindblade feats in question. Does anyone have any response to the newest additions (found at page 9) and want to comment on them? If I only could find them? I have set the option to a page showing 50 posts, so this thread has for me a total of only 6 pages. If you could perhaps provide a post number? :bigeyes: === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Sithobi1 05-07-06, 04:16 PM	I'm aware, but I assumed it was the source based on your avatar. Raziel was the Soul Reaver. The sword by itself without Raziel in it was the Blood Reaver. Interesting. Alright. I forgot the smiley. Sorry 'bout that. Marshal, Binder, and Cleric or Warlock. Sure, here:http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=56659#post56659
angellis_ater 05-07-06, 04:41 PM	Here is the latest post with all the feats and the latest revision (by drunkenewok): http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9097502&postcount=267 Oh, can we leave the "Legacy of Kain" references to the appropriate off-site forum? :)
Sithobi1 05-07-06, 04:58 PM	Focused Resonance looks really powerful to me at first look, but I'm not sure about its actual balance. For Close Combat Mindarrow, how about adding in Precise Shot as a prereq? Since it helps with shooting into melee, it seems like it'd be useful. I'm not sure if it'd make CCM underpowered, though.
angellis_ater 05-07-06, 05:09 PM	My opinion: Focused Resonance is balanced internally because expending focus generally looses you all your "special abilities" for your Mindblade, unless spend another feat to keep them while "unfocused". So I do not see this as a general problem, especially since Resonant Blade is limited by Concentration ranks and thus cannot be "stacked" just by spending feats on it. Precise Shot might be an interesting idea as a prerequisite and I think it fits quite well with the general idea. Problem is that it would make the feat nearly useless in terms of feat expenditure - you could always take Soulblade Warrior and manifest a normal mindblade instead and fight with that.
Necropolitan 05-07-06, 05:15 PM	I recently played around with a vairent Psionic class based on the Soulknife's abilities, not sure if it's exactly relivent, but it's been well-recived in the Classes subforum, maybe it'll perk your inspiration a bit. It's the Shiv link in my signature; if it could be at all helpful.
Ra-Tiel 05-07-06, 06:02 PM	Hi. === Here is the latest post with all the feats and the latest revision (by drunkenewok): http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9097502&postcount=267 [...] Just a few quick comments before I'm off to bed. --- I don't know if that was already dealt with in the discussion before that post you linked to, but is it really necessary to have all those feats being [psionic], yet Mind Arrow being just [mindblade]? I think that if you consider how the feats were intended for the fighter/psychic warrior, having most of those feats being [psionic] is an unnecessary gift for them (thinking of Psionic Body). The example mentioned by drunkenewok would gain several additional HPs out of it, perhaps the equivalent of 2 or 3 extra levels' worth of hitpoints. IIRC, Shape Mindblade was [psionic], right? Therefore all follow up feats don't necessarily have also to bear that tag - at least imho - because they merely enhance and improve the basic feat in one form or another. --- Also, I've reread Focused Resonance, and if you compared it with say Greater Psionic Weapon what would your conclusion be? Both require expenditure of focus, both drop the mindblade enhancements (if the character does not possess that other feat) and both add damage. GPW adds 4d6, while FS adds at least 4d8 (if you didn't change the amount of damage since I dropped out). Perhaps you could change the feat to something like "If you expend your focus while making the attack, you may reroll any die from Resonant Blade showing less than 4. You can reroll any number of dice." This would also be quite a nice ability (taking out those wonderful moments when you roll 3 "1"s with 4d8) but be not an obvious choice as slinging around close-to-delayed blast fireball-style damage with a melee attack (when not using powergaming builds ;) ). --- And just a sidenote on Mind Arrow. Perhaps it would be a good idea to either include a statement that the damage does not scale with additional character size increases or have the damage changed to something like "1d8+1 for every two [mindblade] feats you posses". Just to prevent cheese like that 15d6 claws I mentioned earlier. A psychic warrior using expansion for +2 size categories already gets 3d6 arrows out of it, and I bet other people would find a way to scale the damage up even higher. I can't see if you get your normal mindblade enhancements with it, but if you do, Rapid Shot and boots of haste would be a nasty surprise in combination with wounding mindarrows. :eek: === Greetings and good night, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 05-07-06, 09:24 PM	As far as I remember the discussions regarding whether or not stuff should be [Psionic] or not was put up both as a bonus (from Psionic Body) and a limiter since all Psionic feats are nullified inside a Null Psionics Field or an Anti Magic Field. As far as I remembered we decided that all "normal/natural" effects which would stem from a normal weapon would be just Mindblade-feats, while those adding special attacks or abilities would be Psionic as well. The Main difference between Focused Resonance and Greater Psionic Weapon is generally in the feats necessary for it to be used correctly and the prerequisites. GWP can be used with any weapon, FR only with your Mindblade. GWP costs 2 feats to attain, Focused Resonance 4 feats and 12 skill ranks AND requires an action to "power up". But in my mind its not a "must-have" feat on the list, so I would be willing to rework or drop it entirely. The Mind Arrow might be better served by a base damage which increases by number of Mindblade feats indeed and would make that option slightly more viable.
drunkenewok 05-08-06, 12:12 PM	I don't know if that was already dealt with in the discussion before that post you linked to, but is it really necessary to have all those feats being [psionic], yet Mind Arrow being just [mindblade]?As angellis_ater commented, the primary reason for adding the psionic descriptor to the majority of feats in the mindblade tree is to prevent their use within an AMF/NPF. Looking at the entire tree, there aren't many feats that don't have the psionic descriptor (Improved Material Harmonics, Oversize Blade, Shape Mindblade, Soul Armor, Soulblade Warrior, and Throw Mindblade), so of the 37 existing feats (not including the proposed additions) there are only 6 (~16%) that don't have the psionic descriptor. While this will make Psionic Body an appealing choice to any mindblade character, I don't consider it to be overwhelming for two reasons. First, taking Psionic Body means giving up a feat slot that could be used for a Mindblade feat, which can be substantial if you actually level up instead of just making a build, since your Mindblade may not be at peak efficiency. Second, Psionic Body at best is going to contribute around 30-40 hp pre-epic (Fighter with 18 psionic feats = 36 hp). While that is substantial, at higher levels extra hp isn't nearly as crucial as it is at low levels. Also, it's worth considering that at high levels a single application of bear's endurance or rage is going to grant 40 hp, effectively making a semi-restrictive set of 18 feats the equivalent of a L2 spell or L1 class ability. IIRC, Shape Mindblade was [psionic], right? Therefore all follow up feats don't necessarily have also to bear that tag - at least imho - because they merely enhance and improve the basic feat in one form or another.Shape Mindblade does not have the psionic descriptor. In general, the feats that do not have the descriptor are those that modify the physical shape of the mindblade (Shape, Oversize, Armor, Imp Material Harmonics), or the specific tactics which can be used with it (Soulblade, Throw). Since Mind Arrow is an extension of both Throw Mindblade and (to a lesser extent) Shape Mindblade, I didn't assign it the psionic descriptor. The three Resonance-based feats all extend Resonant Blade (which has the descriptor), and all provide pretty supernatural effects, so I assigned the descriptor to all three. Phase Arrow is also decidedly supernatural, and thus should also (imho) have the descriptor. Close Combat Mindarrow is probably the only new feat that I'd readily remove the descriptor from. It could be seen as more of an Ex ability than an Su, for the same reasons that Soulblade Warrior doesn't have the Psionic descriptor. Also, I've reread Focused Resonance, and if you compared it with say Greater Psionic Weapon what would your conclusion be? Both require expenditure of focus, both drop the mindblade enhancements (if the character does not possess that other feat) and both add damage.Comparing the base levels, GPW requires 2 feats, while Focused Resonance requires 4 feats (and min ECL9). Given that expense, GPW does +4d6 (14) untyped damage, with a recharge of 1 full-round action. Focused Resonance does +4d8 (18) untyped damage, with a recharge of 1 full-round action AND 1 move action - so double the feat cost and an additional action to recharge for +4 damage (on average). Making a build that will really take advantage of Focused Resonance would almost definitely require Psionic Meditation, Inner Focus, and Mind Cleave, plus a heavy investment (4+) in Resonant Blade. Consider a L20 mindblader who spends the 12 feats necessary to get the maximum +14d8 (63) damage on one attack per round (barring hustle and assuming he can drop one foe per round). Then compare it with the L20 caster's delayed blast fireball which does an average of 70 damage to an area, or even a L20 psion's crystal shard which does the same damage to a single target on a touch attack. In summary, I think that Focused Resonance is nice, slightly worse than GPW at low levels (but slightly better at high levels with sufficient feat investment), and definitely sub-par compared to the things a caster/manifester can throw around. Perhaps you could change the feat to something like "If you expend your focus while making the attack, you may reroll any die from Resonant Blade showing less than 4. You can reroll any number of dice."Assuming you can keep rerolling until you get a 4+, that would change the average damage of a 2d8 focused resonance strike from 9 to 12, instead of 9 to 18. That would make Focused Resonance (avg 12) strictly worse than GPW (avg 14) at the base level. This alteration would reduce the effectiveness of Focused Resonance by about 33%, which I'm not sure is warranted given the other options available. If you can come up with a build that is obviously superior (or even comparable) to the more broken builds currently available with Core + Complete/Races, I'm willing to reconsider. And just a sidenote on Mind Arrow. Perhaps it would be a good idea to either include a statement that the damage does not scale with additional character size increases or have the damage changed to something like "1d8+1 for every two [mindblade] feats you posses". The second ability you mention is already available, given that every two mindblade feats grants a +1 enhancement bonus to the Mind Arrow. Allowing it to double up might be overwhelming. As for the first suggestion, I believe that size-scaling damage is a problem with the size-alteration mechanics, rather than the mechanics of the mindblade feat system. Rather than try to jury-rig some sort of "fix" into the mindblade system, I'd rather see a fix (official or house-rule) to the size scales. It's also worth noting that Expansion for +2 size categories (the equivalent of a L4+ spell/power) only grants an average +6 to damage (1d8 = 4.5, 3d6 = 10.5) to Mind Arrow. It's when you can stack (legally or otherwise) expansion, Oversize Blade (or Monkey Grip), and Powerful Build (or more) to get from a normal base of 1d8 (4.5) to 6d6 (21). The question becomes, is a L5 power, one feat, and a +1 LA enough of a cost to get +16.5 damage per attack? (In this case, they each provide an average of +5.5 damage, which is less than the bonus provided by Psionic Weapon) I can't see if you get your normal mindblade enhancements with it, but if you do, Rapid Shot and boots of haste would be a nasty surprise in combination with wounding mindarrows. :eek:Just for argument's sake, let's assume a build with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Mind Arrow, and the 2 other mindblade feats necessary to get wounding mindarrows +2. Seven feats would require a L6 Fighter, but the total enhancement bonus would keep the minimum ECL at 8. When coupled with boots of haste, the L8 Fighter would have an attack routine of +8/+8/+8/+3 (plus mods for Dex/range/other), giving him a decent (but not great) chance of inflicting 4 Con damage. Against an equal CR opponent, that would equate to 12 hp damage. If he were to switch the wounding special ability for collision (also +2), with the same hit rate he'd deal +20 hp damage. You could probably leverage this into a more impressive build, but I don't think it's going to be completely unbalancing. It's also currently possible using only Throw Mindblade and Soulblade Warrior, though with a reduced range (30 ft. instead of 110 ft.). The full-range wounding arrow combo is also available to any Soulbow 6+ (min ECL11). Comparing this combo to the other common stat-drainer, ego whip, a L8 Psion can drain an average of 3.75 Cha per turn (assuming a 50% chance of a successful save). Since Cha is more likely to be a dump stat, it's typically going to be easier to incapacitate a target with ego whip, though the wounding weapon will deal more "collateral" damage (i.e. you still get the base weapon damage, along with the lost hp, which makes it more useful when used with a group) Regarding the "unbalance" introduced by Oversize Blade + expansion, even though there are more powerful builds, there is a simple reason why your "newb" player discovered the synergy, and it's also the reason lots of folks think that psionics are overpowered. Simply put, when you have a completely self-contained system that is meant to be "nearly as good" as all the published material for a system that is spread across dozens of splat-books, it's much easier for a "newb" to discover the powerful combos. In creating the mindblade feat tree, we've effectively removed the majority of "worthless" feats, and left only those that provide a meaningful mechanical advantage. The fact that the feats are individually "balanced" so as not to be too powerful compared to existing feats doesn't take into account that the feat tree as a whole is typically far more powerful than any randomly selected assortment of feats from the existing rules. Monkey Grip (which is what Oversize Blade was meant to replicate) + enlarge person is a powerful combo, but requires a thorough understanding of the size-mechanics, spell-casting, and melee combat, as well as a multi-class gish-build and familiarity with a non-core book to pull off. In my experience, I've never seen a new player be able to synergize all those abilities. When you offer the mindblade feat tree, it's infinitely easier to find the powerful synergies because we've already put them all in one place. To offer a real-world comparison, it's like asking two internet users to find a good reference site on a specific topic. The first user is allowed to use Google, while the second isn't allowed any search engine at all, and must type in URLs at random. If you're experiencing a problem with a particular combination of rules, you're perfectly within your rights to change or forbid it. My primary argument for keeping it in the feat tree is that it's no better than existing combos, which doesn't necessarily make it "balanced".
Ra-Tiel 05-08-06, 03:21 PM	Hi. === As angellis_ater commented, the primary reason for adding the psionic descriptor to the majority of feats in the mindblade tree is to prevent their use within an AMF/NPF. [...] Sorry, I mixed it up. I didn't mean the feat that allows you to modify the shape of your mindblade, I meant the feat that allowed you to manifest your mindblade in the first place. It would be sufficient of only that feat hat the [psionic] descriptor. Because then, if the character got stuck in an amf/npf, it wouldn't matter how many other [mindblade] feats he had, as the very basic feat would be unaccessable, and thus all subsequent feats would also be not available. --- While this will make Psionic Body an appealing choice to any mindblade character, I don't consider it to be overwhelming for two reasons. First, taking Psionic Body means giving up a feat slot that could be used for a Mindblade feat, which can be substantial if you actually level up instead of just making a build, since your Mindblade may not be at peak efficiency. Two words: psychic reformation. Just as a human psion can use Psionic Body to get a number of base HPs of 10+Con mod at level 1, a fighter or psychic warrior specializing in his mindblade could use it at low levels to increase his chance for survival and then later just have it reformed out for a [mindblade] feat that benefits him more at that time. --- Second, Psionic Body at best is going to contribute around 30-40 hp pre-epic (Fighter with 18 psionic feats = 36 hp). While that is substantial, at higher levels extra hp isn't nearly as crucial as it is at low levels. Also, it's worth considering that at high levels a single application of bear's endurance or rage is going to grant 40 hp, effectively making a semi-restrictive set of 18 feats the equivalent of a L2 spell or L1 class ability. [...] Well, 30 HPs are 30HPs. And sorry, for a melee fighter HPs are a very substantial resource in high level play. When a single attack can repeatedly deal 50+ points of damage (and assuming a psionically focused party) probably without very effective healing abilities in the party, the frontliner's dead by round 2. --- [...] Consider a L20 mindblader who spends the 12 feats necessary to get the maximum +14d8 (63) damage on one attack per round (barring hustle and assuming he can drop one foe per round). But there are abilities/feats/powers/items available to get you additional actions. What keeps a psychic warrior from using hustle and boots of speed at the same time? Recharge, full attack with an extra attack. Recharge, full attack with an extra attack. Repeat until enemy dead. --- Then compare it with the L20 caster's delayed blast fireball which does an average of 70 damage to an area, or even a L20 psion's crystal shard which does the same damage to a single target on a touch attack. And that level 20 caster can do that exactly how often per day? Throwing it into the midst of combat where the fighter and cleric are standing? A level 20 sorcerer with a Charisma of 30 has 7 level 7 slots available. Also, that crystal shard is going to cost the psion 18PPs if we're looking at comparable average damage (14d8 = 63 = 18d6), which is more than 4% of the manifester's daily resources (he could only throw ~24 such shards per day) The mindblade fighter can do that the whole day long, not having to worry about running out of focuses or other stuff. --- In summary, I think that Focused Resonance is nice, slightly worse than GPW at low levels (but slightly better at high levels with sufficient feat investment), and definitely sub-par compared to the things a caster/manifester can throw around. I would call it significantly better with sufficient feat investment, because 4d6 compared to 14d8 is imho quite obvious. :P --- Assuming you can keep rerolling until you get a 4+, that would change the average damage of a 2d8 focused resonance strike from 9 to 12, instead of 9 to 18. That would make Focused Resonance (avg 12) strictly worse than GPW (avg 14) at the base level. This alteration would reduce the effectiveness of Focused Resonance by about 33%, which I'm not sure is warranted given the other options available. I was suggesting that because angellis_ater was afraid of Focused Resonance being too good to not take it. Which probably is still true provided the character has a sufficiently high resonance damage. --- If you can come up with a build that is obviously superior (or even comparable) to the more broken builds currently available with Core + Complete/Races, I'm willing to reconsider. Hey, that's unfair! I told you that I'm not good at number crunching! :P --- The second ability you mention is already available, given that every two mindblade feats grants a +1 enhancement bonus to the Mind Arrow. Allowing it to double up might be overwhelming. Perhaps you did overread it, but I really didn't follow this thread since I dropped out of it some time ago. And even before that I was not interested in that mindarrow thing very much. ;) I was just offering suggestions. :) --- As for the first suggestion, I believe that size-scaling damage is a problem with the size-alteration mechanics, rather than the mechanics of the mindblade feat system. But the problem still exists, no matter how hard you insist it being the system's fault and not your feats'. I just would take out that possible loop-hole to stop anything cheesy right dead at the start, and not having to mess around later with rewrites, modifications and added rules. --- Rather than try to jury-rig some sort of "fix" into the mindblade system, I'd rather see a fix (official or house-rule) to the size scales. It's also worth noting that Expansion for +2 size categories (the equivalent of a L4+ spell/power) only grants an average +6 to damage (1d8 = 4.5, 3d6 = 10.5) to Mind Arrow. I wouldn't hold my breath on that. And +6 damage on all ranged attacks is quite a bonus, considering that you didn't even yet add any magical abilities. Even more when you consider that the OotBI has to sacrifice his full attack to get a measily +5d8 bonus damage (which only works withing 30ft), this "only +6" is quite massive. --- It's when you can stack (legally or otherwise) expansion, Oversize Blade (or Monkey Grip), and Powerful Build (or more) to get from a normal base of 1d8 (4.5) to 6d6 (21). The question becomes, is a L5 power, one feat, and a +1 LA enough of a cost to get +16.5 damage per attack? That +16.5 quickly adds up. Please consider also that a ranged combatant usually gets off much more full attacks than a melee fighter (because of often not having to follow/avoid creatures), or just uses boots of flying in the first round to remove himself from melee range. Add in the fact that there are easier ways to increase the number of ranged attacks via feats, this +16.5 very quickly amounts to a massive number of damage. --- (In this case, they each provide an average of +5.5 damage, which is less than the bonus provided by Psionic Weapon) But unlike the feat you mentioned, this here does not cost focus every round. Or did I miss something here? :confused: --- Just for argument's sake, let's assume a build with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Form Mindblade, Throw Mindblade, Mind Arrow, and the 2 other mindblade feats necessary to get wounding mindarrows +2. Seven feats would require a L6 Fighter, but the total enhancement bonus would keep the minimum ECL at 8. When coupled with boots of haste, the L8 Fighter would have an attack routine of +8/+8/+8/+3 (plus mods for Dex/range/other), giving him a decent (but not great) chance of inflicting 4 Con damage. The point is, Cha damage will not kill you directly. Never. Ever. Even if you are a half-orc barbarian with Cha 4 and get hit with an epic-insanely-augmented ego whip dealing 1 billion points of Cha damage, you are not dead. On the other hand, Con damage not only affects your HPs and Fort saves (thus making you even more vulnerable against save-or-dies), it also carries the risk of killing you right on its own. I think there is a reason why there are no spells that inflict massive Con damage over a large area or at a great range (the only one I can remember being poison, which is initially/secondary 1d10 with a range of touch). --- Against an equal CR opponent, that would equate to 12 hp damage. If he were to switch the wounding special ability for collision (also +2), with the same hit rate he'd deal +20 hp damage. You could probably leverage this into a more impressive build, but I don't think it's going to be completely unbalancing. It's also currently possible using only Throw Mindblade and Soulblade Warrior, though with a reduced range (30 ft. instead of 110 ft.). But at higher levels that again quickly adds up. At those levels many - if not all - monsters have more HDs than the PCs, and thus every two points of Con damage translate to a respectable number of lost HPs - in addition to the normal damage the attack inflicted. --- The full-range wounding arrow combo is also available to any Soulbow 6+ (min ECL11). As I don't possess CPsi (and will never touch that book even with a standard issue 10ft pole), I cannot comment on that. --- Comparing this combo to the other common stat-drainer, ego whip, a L8 Psion can drain an average of 3.75 Cha per turn (assuming a 50% chance of a successful save). Since Cha is more likely to be a dump stat, it's typically going to be easier to incapacitate a target with ego whip, though the wounding weapon will deal more "collateral" damage (i.e. you still get the base weapon damage, along with the lost hp, which makes it more useful when used with a group) As said, Cha damage is less dangerous than Con damage. With that ego whip you can scare some classes really well... usually bards, paladins and sorcerers. But at worse it will cost the casters one or two bonus slots, and the paladin one or two points of save bonus. You'll be smashed to a bloody pulp long before you reach the point where you deny the sorcerer his highest level spells or completely remove a paladin's lay on hands pool. On the other hand, all classes are :censored: with any amount of Con damage, as it pulls down HPs and a very important save. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 05-08-06, 04:02 PM	Regarding the "unbalance" introduced by Oversize Blade + expansion, even though there are more powerful builds, there is a simple reason why your "newb" player discovered the synergy, and it's also the reason lots of folks think that psionics are overpowered. Indeed! It wasn't until now that I finally understood WHY they found the combination so quickly and "exploited" it. First of all, it's not an overpowering combination and second of all another player (with a larger understanding of the different rulebooks) quickly pointed out other likeminded and equally dangerous combo's. So, the more I've been thinking about it, the DUMBER does "Close Combat Mindarrow" feel unless we add some additional bonus. Why not just take another Mindblade feat and get something better out of the deal? To Ra-Tiel: By my reading of the rules (I might misunderstand them though) a character DIES if ANY ability score goes down to 0, no matter which one.
Sithobi1 05-08-06, 09:03 PM	It won't kill you, but it'll make you helpless, unless it's Con damage, which will kill you.
Ra-Tiel 05-09-06, 12:52 AM	Hi. === [...] To Ra-Tiel: By my reading of the rules (I might misunderstand them though) a character DIES if ANY ability score goes down to 0, no matter which one. Sorry, but you're just wrong on this one. From the SRD on this topic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged): Ability Damaged The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away. Emphasis in blue. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
angellis_ater 05-09-06, 04:43 AM	Ah, there we go! See, I always learn something new on these boards. I guess my players would be ****** if they saw that but I'll just claim "house rules" on it for them. Either way, thanks for pointing it out for me! Unconcious would still mean vulnerable though, not just at the same level as DEAD from Con damage.
ArochanoX 05-09-06, 06:40 AM	I'm new to this topic (and complete psionics), so I'm not familiar with all the previous feat suggestions or printed feats. So I make my suggestions with "if"-statements. Assumption 1: Soulknife is a class made around one single mechanic - the mindblade - that could be broken into feats. Assumption 2: Fighter (or any "intelligent" fighter type) is the most reasonable user of mindblade. Assumption 3: Mindblade is a psionic ability, thus requiring power points. (This is actually very stupid, but I'll open it later.) Then the feat (if one doesn't already exist): Mindblade [general] Prerequisites: fighter level 1, Cha 13 Benefit: a fighter with this feat is able to manifest a mindblade from his hand as a move action. The mindblade can be any melee weapon that the fighter has proficiency to. The mind blade is considered masterwork quality. The mindblade can be enchanted like ordinary weapons. This feat also grants fighter power point reserve of 0. Power point reserve of zero is different from no power point reserve, because it allows character to take [psionic] feats. Some questions and answers: Q: Why mindblade should be magically enchanted? It's not a corporeal, ordinary weapon. It should increase in power automatically. A: It's because of the mechanics. If a Fighter took a weapon that increased in power without any requirements, it would be much better than ordinary weapons. This feat should be on par in power level with exotic weapon proficiency feat. If it required more feats to increase its power, it would be very underpowered, because fighters should use their feats in new weapon tricks and character's level based feats should be used to give character personality through signature traits. Feat as a word means roughly "trick". What kind of trick is weapon-enchanting? Q: Why any weapon that fighter has proficiency to? The original mindblade has only few possible weapon choises. A: Because it's stupid! And non-fluffic! Mindblade is a extension of fighter's mind. It should be up to fighter's imagination what kind of weapon the mind blade is. The more imaginative the weapon is, the more concentration and control wielding of the mindblade needs, that justifies combining exotic weapon proficiency and mindblade. Q: Why don't Mindblade feat require power point reserve? It's psionic in nature. A: Because it would greatly limit this feat's usability compared to its power. It requires charisma to grant it low-power version of the "talented" feat. If a character wants actual power points, he needs to take the talented feat. Psionics represent the power of mind. Charisma represents the power of personality which is almost the same. And after that feat, there of course should be a feat tree for mind-blade specialization. Ranged mindblade etc.
drunkenewok 05-09-06, 08:40 AM	Apologies for the late reply, the boards have been flaky for me for hours...It would be sufficient of only that feat hat the [psionic] descriptor. Because then, if the character got stuck in an amf/npf, it wouldn't matter how many other [mindblade] feats he had, as the very basic feat would be unaccessable, and thus all subsequent feats would also be not available.Actually, the Form Mindblade feat does have the psionic descriptor, but like the standard soulknife ability, it offers a means to function within an AMF/NPF. If such were not the case, any mindblader would suffer a HUGE penalty, as they can be perfectly and completely disarmed by an AMF/NPF, which becomes increasingly prevalent in high-level play. Thus we can't simply assume that all the subsequent feats will be eliminated, hence the reason why the bulk of the tree has the psionic descriptor. Two words: psychic reformation.I'll say it simply: I outright refuse to change the way this system works because another system is broken. If you really take issue with psychic reformation, you should change that power, not alter every subsequent creation based on the assumption that anyone who uses your systems will be too stupid to develop their own house rules. Dramatically changing the mindblade feat tree to prevent a single psychic reformation combo is comparable to designing a car without wheels because some streets have potholes. In this particular case, I honestly don't believe there is sufficient reason to alter either the feat tree or the psychic reformation power. If a character wants to spend 100-1000 XP to make a slight change to his character at higher level, that's fine by me. And sorry, for a melee fighter HPs are a very substantial resource in high level play.I meant that as levels increase, the actual utility of high hp decreases. As Save-or-Die spells/powers become more and more prevalent, hp matters less and less. I'd argue that hp are by far the most important at low levels, when a single (un)lucky roll spells doom. It's also worth comparing the Fighter with Psionic Body + 17 psionic feats, who would gain 36 hp, and the Fighter who chooses Improved Toughness, who gains 20. The Psionic Body Fighter has to give up at least 9 non-psionic feats in order to get the same benefit as the Imp Toughness fighter, which is a restriction on his flexibility. And there are non-mindblader builds which can get the same (or near the same) benefit from Psionic Body, by taking other psionic feats. But there are abilities/feats/powers/items available to get you additional actions. What keeps a psychic warrior from using hustle and boots of speed at the same time? Recharge, full attack with an extra attack. Recharge, full attack with an extra attack. Repeat until enemy dead.Okay, let's assume a L20 Human PsyWar with hustle and temporal acceleration as action boosters, and the 12 (out of 16 total) feats I described above, and he starts combat fully charged and in melee range. IF he drops one target per round, he can use hustle to refocus, and get a single Focused Resonance off once per round. If he ever fails to drop a target, he must use temporal acceleration to both recharge and refocus in order to keep his 1/round usage. You could theoretically use temporal acceleration to use Focused Resonance more than once per round, but doing so would preclude using it the following round (unless you burned another TA). So a PsyWar 20 in optimal conditions must spend at least 3pp/round to use the combo 1/round. In standard conditions, it will likely be closer to 9-11pp/round but we'll split the difference and call the it 7pp/round, or about 4% of his daily resources. Plus, he had to spend 75% of his feat resources to acquire the combo. Compare with a Psion 20 with Split Ray and Empower Power, who can utilize split empowered crystal shards approx 24/day for 48d6 (avg 168) damage, at a feat resource cost of about 15% of his feat resources. Thus the Psion spends less of his daily resources, less of his character resources, has greater accuracy (touch vs standard attack), and more damage (unless the PsyWar has the ability to do more than 33 avg base damage per attack). Add in action boosters like schism, Quicken Power, and/or temporal acceleration + Delay Power, and the Psion can deliver even more base damage. I would call it significantly better with sufficient feat investment, because 4d6 compared to 14d8 is imho quite obvious. :PPerhaps, but when you consider the cost average of the feats, it's not nearly so powerful. For instance, Greater Psionic Weapon grants an average of +7 dmg per feat. Resonant Blade grants only +4.5 dmg per feat, and if you take the full 12-feat combo necessary to really take advantage of the Focused Resonance feat, you're only looking at +4.0 dmg per feat, and even then GPW is going to be more frequent and easier to use. (The fact that the Focused Resonance combo does focus all its damage in a single attack is significant, but not necessarily decisive). But the problem still exists, no matter how hard you insist it being the system's fault and not your feats'.See above comment. I see no reason to "fix" the feat tree when it's not broken, or to remove "loopholes" that aren't caused by this system. If you have issues with the size increase factors, you're more than welcome to house-rule it out. As is, the mindblade tree offers very little that isn't available to a non-mindblader. I wouldn't hold my breath on that. And +6 damage on all ranged attacks is quite a bonus, considering that you didn't even yet add any magical abilities.Assuming maximum attacks (via Rapid Shot), you're looking at no more than +30 per full attack. There are comparable L4+ powers that are substantially more broken (e.g. metamorphosis) and/or more deadly (e.g. death urge) or more useful (e.g. dominate). In any case, the problem is with the size mechanics, not with the mindblade feats. A "normal" psywar archer can do the exact same things you're taking issue with, but without spending a bunch of feats to get the weapon. (i.e. it takes at least 3 "extra" feats for a mindblader character to gain the benefits a "normal" can get). If you really don't like the size mechanics, house-rule a change. I just don't see a compelling reason to try to shoehorn a fix meant for a completely different system into the feat tree. The point is, Cha damage will not kill you directly. Never. Ever. Even if you are a half-orc barbarian with Cha 4 and get hit with an epic-insanely-augmented ego whip dealing 1 billion points of Cha damage, you are not dead.Even if you aren't actually dead, incapacitation is pretty close to the same. The spells to recover from 0 Con are typically more expensive than those for 0 Cha, but otherwise the effect is pretty much the same. On the other hand, Con damage not only affects your HPs and Fort saves (thus making you even more vulnerable against save-or-dies), it also carries the risk of killing you right on its own.The very fact that Con is a more important stat also makes it a less appealing target for the "quick kill". Almost all characters (especially the heavy tank types which ego whip is so good at taking down) will have a higher Con than Cha. Thus each individual point of Con damage is less likely to be "lethal". I don't see it as insanely overpowered, anymore than the standard thrown wounding mindblade +2. The range is a bit better, but I honestly can't think of a good way to eliminate the combo even if we wanted to. You could assert that none of your special abilities apply, but that seems unnecessarily harsh, so you'd have to pick and choose which abilities apply, making it decidely inelegant. Plus, the CPsi Soulbow (upon which the mind-arrow bit is based) allows it at ECL11, thus making the feat tree no better/worse than an "official" source, and a "normal" archer could pick up a wounding longbow +2 and get the exact same benefits (which wouldn't be unlikely at ECL11, and possible as early as ECL7, assuming average wealth). Is it a good combo? Yeah, I'd say so. Is it broken? Not any more than a half-dozen other builds.
Ra-Tiel 05-09-06, 01:24 PM	Hi. === Actually, the Form Mindblade feat does have the psionic descriptor, but like the standard soulknife ability, it offers a means to function within an AMF/NPF. If such were not the case, any mindblader would suffer a HUGE penalty, as they can be perfectly and completely disarmed by an AMF/NPF, which becomes increasingly prevalent in high-level play. Thus we can't simply assume that all the subsequent feats will be eliminated, hence the reason why the bulk of the tree has the psionic descriptor. First, amf and npf are not really "prevalent" in high-level game. It's rather used as a tactical weapon under very special circumstances, because it completely disables the caster for good. Also, according to your line of reasoning, the ability to manifest a mindblade in an amf is not really a benefit for the mindblade fighter, because he looses most - if not any - abilities it has (due to loosing all [psionic] feats). Therefore, why not simplify it just a bit by saying that the mindblade is either disabled, or working at full capacity instead of leaving the mindblade fighter with a 1d8+6 weapon against that iron collossus... --- I'll say it simply: I outright refuse to change the way this system works because another system is broken. If you really take issue with psychic reformation, you should change that power, not alter every subsequent creation based on the assumption that anyone who uses your systems will be too stupid to develop their own house rules. Dramatically changing the mindblade feat tree to prevent a single psychic reformation combo is comparable to designing a car without wheels because some streets have potholes. [...] But then you're falling for a simple trap: "it's balanced if you leave out that, that and that". You cannot argue the balance of something psionic if you leave out a basic level 4 power from the XPHb. Also, I'd like to note that it is not "my" system, but rather the RAW regarding the XPHb, thank you very much. And if you either don't want to - or don't care - to balance your feats with the only true psionic supplement from WotC, then I don't know what else... --- Compare with a Psion 20 with Split Ray and Empower Power, who can utilize split empowered crystal shards approx 24/day for 48d6 (avg 168) damage, at a feat resource cost of about 15% of his feat resources. Thus the Psion spends less of his daily resources, less of his character resources, has greater accuracy (touch vs standard attack), and more damage (unless the PsyWar has the ability to do more than 33 avg base damage per attack). Again you fall for the fallacy of comparing a non-casting character with the abilities of spellcasters/manifesters. I could argue the same: "your feats are too weak to be worth the slot at all because look at what a sorcerer can do with time stop + energy drain + limited wish + targetted greater dispel magic + finger of death = instakill pwnage!1!one!eleven!" Also, technically speaking with Split Psionic Ray you cannot hit the same target, check your XPHb, so you're only inflicting 24d6 each on two targets, not 48d6 on one target. And finally, weren't you the one who was argueing about metamagic/-psionic feats not stacking in that other thread? In that case, you only have the first ray empowered, thus dropping the damage to 24d6 for the primary ray, and 16d6 for the second one. Not to mention that a simple displacement effect wastes 50% of your attacks, while a lesser globe of invulnerability sets your psion totally out of commision while it hinders the mindblade fighter in exactly what way? --- Add in action boosters like schism, Quicken Power, and/or temporal acceleration + Delay Power, and the Psion can deliver even more base damage. Where using all of them in each encounter makes the psion a crossbow wielder by encounter 3... --- Perhaps, but when you consider the cost average of the feats, it's not nearly so powerful. For instance, Greater Psionic Weapon grants an average of +7 dmg per feat. Resonant Blade grants only +4.5 dmg per feat, and if you take the full 12-feat combo necessary to really take advantage of the Focused Resonance feat, you're only looking at +4.0 dmg per feat, and even then GPW is going to be more frequent and easier to use. (The fact that the Focused Resonance combo does focus all its damage in a single attack is significant, but not necessarily decisive). I don't think that you can argue by a "damage per feat" ratio. In my opinion it is only the result that matters, because I'm sure the player of a wizard in your game is glad to hear it took the enemy 12 feats to make him drop in one hit. --- See above comment. I see no reason to "fix" the feat tree when it's not broken, or to remove "loopholes" that aren't caused by this system. If you have issues with the size increase factors, you're more than welcome to house-rule it out. As is, the mindblade tree offers very little that isn't available to a non-mindblader. Also: see my comment above. If you don't see a reason to "fix" mechanics that could possibly create issues with the current standard rules, then why are we argueing anything about the balance of psionics and just don't accept the fact that the DM has to house-rule "everything" to make psionics even usable in his campaign? Sorry, but is stances like yours that created the hulking hurler... "if you don't like the official throwing rules from CWar, you're welcome to house-rule them out"... --- Assuming maximum attacks (via Rapid Shot), you're looking at no more than +30 per full attack. There are comparable L4+ powers that are substantially more broken (e.g. metamorphosis) and/or more deadly (e.g. death urge) or more useful (e.g. dominate). Again, you are comparing weapons with spells. Is then also the "gattling chaingun tripper" weak in your eyes because of spells like gate? Or the "president of smack" because of reverse gravity and forcecage? Sorry, but such an argumentation doesn't cut it for me and just looks like the common excuse "but magic is much more powerful! :bigeyes: " --- In any case, the problem is with the size mechanics, not with the mindblade feats. A "normal" psywar archer can do the exact same things you're taking issue with, but without spending a bunch of feats to get the weapon. (i.e. it takes at least 3 "extra" feats for a mindblader character to gain the benefits a "normal" can get). If you really don't like the size mechanics, house-rule a change. I just don't see a compelling reason to try to shoehorn a fix meant for a completely different system into the feat tree. You don't have to "shoehorn" it in. In my opinion there are always elegant ways to solve rules-issues like that - it's just the point of finding them. Why not just make the damage based on manifester levels? Like ML 1-4: 1d4+Wis mod ML 5-8: 1d6+Wis mod ML 9-12: 1d8+Wis mod ML 13-16: 1d10+Wis mod ML 17-20: 2d6+Wis mod This would allow for scaling, would not be potentially overpowered by the levels you can attain it, and would easily take out the issue of a character scaling the damage to planet-size by stacking on - legal! - increases to his size category. --- Even if you aren't actually dead, incapacitation is pretty close to the same. The spells to recover from 0 Con are typically more expensive than those for 0 Cha, but otherwise the effect is pretty much the same. Yes, like lesser restoration vs raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection. :P --- The very fact that Con is a more important stat also makes it a less appealing target for the "quick kill". Almost all characters (especially the heavy tank types which ego whip is so good at taking down) will have a higher Con than Cha. Thus each individual point of Con damage is less likely to be "lethal". [...] But ego whip is mindaffecting, and allows a save for half, while "wounding" and similar abilities (usually) do not. Also, what stops the "heavy tank" from (assuming you play in a standard setting) buying a cloak of charisma +6 to negate that tactic? Also, the typical Will save is not that low. Base save: +6 Wisdom 14: +2 Cloak of resistance: +5 Stone of good luck: +1 Pale green ioun stone: +1 Iron Will: +2 Total: +17 And I'm not even trying hard... Also, I see each point of Con damage much more lethal than the same amount of Cha damage. For each two points of Con damage you loose a number of HPs equal to your HD and take a -1 penalty to your Fort save. Take the typical fighter. What does hurt him more? Having a Con of 1 or having a Cha of 1? === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
drunkenewok 05-09-06, 03:39 PM	First, amf and npf are not really "prevalent" in high-level game. It's rather used as a tactical weapon under very special circumstances, because it completely disables the caster for good.They are indeed prevalent in high-level games, at least in the ones I've played. The caster types do suffer more from an AMF than a non-caster, but that's simply a balance on the superior level of power a caster is normally capable of. The mindblade character actually suffers much more than a normal non-caster, but less than a normal caster (as is befitting a pseudo-hybrid class). Also, according to your line of reasoning, the ability to manifest a mindblade in an amf is not really a benefit for the mindblade fighter, because he looses most - if not any - abilities it has (due to loosing all [psionic] feats). Therefore, why not simplify it just a bit by saying that the mindblade is either disabled, or working at full capacity instead of leaving the mindblade fighter with a 1d8+6 weapon against that iron collossus...The reasoning is simple, a soulknife is a weapon-based character, and the mindblade, despite being a supernatural effect, should continue to function in much the same way that a "normal" weapon would. Extending your reasoning (that it should either be all or nothing) to a normal character, a fighter with a adamantine vorpal longsword +5 should either have that sword vanish into thin air or have it function without any impairment within an AMF. The system as currently written accurately models the effects of an AMF on a weapon-based character (special abilities are lost, but the weapon itself remains), with the additional requirement that the mindblader make a Concentration check to maintain the blade. But then you're falling for a simple trap: "it's balanced if you leave out that, that and that". You cannot argue the balance of something psionic if you leave out a basic level 4 power from the XPHb.It's not a simple trap: I honestly don't believe that the combination of these feats and the expansion power is any more broken or unbalanced than a "normal" psywar with expansion. Your suggestion is basically to gut the mindblader's ability to use combinations that are perfectly valid for every other character in the game. Unless you can point out some reason why the mindblader should suffer so, I refuse to make the change. The feats are balanced with the both the Core and the XPH. None of the combos you've mentioned (wounding weapon or expansion synergy) are unique to the mindblade feat tree. Removing the option to use those abilities from the mindblade feat tree WILL make the mindblade tree less effective than a "normal" character. While that in itself may not be a bad thing, I don't see any reason why this feat tree should be inherently less powerful than a "normal" build (at least not anymore than it already is). Again you fall for the fallacy of comparing a non-casting character with the abilities of spellcasters/manifesters.How is arguing that the mindblader is balanced by being less powerful than another valid character builds a "fallacy"? Is it possible for the mindblader to gain an ability that is more effective than most non-casters? Yes. Does that make the mindblader "broken"? I personally don't think so. If you believe that all non-casters should be significantly less powerful than all casters, then you might have point. I personally don't see any compelling reason to force a non-caster to be less effective than a caster. So long as the most powerful mindblader ability/combo is less powerful than the most powerful ability/combo in the game, it's arguably balanced. In this case, I've pointed out numerous abilities which exceed the efficacy of Focused Resonance. If I were a better min-maxer, I could probably come up with other non-caster builds that are likewise just as effective. Your argument lacks any substantive proof of "broken-ness", and at this point is reminiscient of saying "OMG! ub3r dmg! N3RF N3RF N3RF!" Also, technically speaking with Split Psionic Ray you cannot hit the same target, check your XPHb, so you're only inflicting 24d6 each on two targets, not 48d6 on one target.Perhaps, but you're still inflicting damage, which means the power is still more effective unless you only have a single target (in which case the Focused Resonance build is also hampered by the fact that he can't take advantage of his Mind Cleave feat and must spend significantly more resources to continue using the ability). And finally, weren't you the one who was argueing about metamagic/-psionic feats not stacking in that other thread? In that case, you only have the first ray empowered, thus dropping the damage to 24d6 for the primary ray, and 16d6 for the second one.You must have misunderstood the argument, because I was in no way suggesting that the feats didn't stack, but rather that you cannot necessarily apply a metamagic feat to a power that only meets the prerequisites for that feat based on the application of a different metamagic feat. That case does not apply here. Not to mention that a simple displacement effect wastes 50% of your attacks, while a lesser globe of invulnerability sets your psion totally out of commision while it hinders the mindblade fighter in exactly what way?Displacement will actually have a greater effect on the mindblader, since he depends on multiple attacks to achieve comparable damage. As for lesser globe, it's highly probable that the psion in question has other powers at his disposal. And one could always consider the addition of an AMF/NPF, which would utterly negate the bulk of the mindblader's damage, but leave the crystal shard combo largely untouched. I don't think that you can argue by a "damage per feat" ratio. In my opinion it is only the result that matters, because I'm sure the player of a wizard in your game is glad to hear it took the enemy 12 feats to make him drop in one hit.That's your opinion, of course, but I think the the player of the Barbarian who gets dominated is going to be substantially more peeved, and that wizard is just as vulnerable (if not more so) to any number of more powerful abilities that are easier to come by. As for the likelihood of using these tactics against my players, I tend to reserve the "big guns" (of which this definitely qualifies) for PCs/groups which are heavily optimized themselves. It's entirely possible that the wizard in the example might brush himself off, and utterly obliterate the mindblader for the impudence of striking him. It's also worth noting that taking the 12 feats necessary to achieve the Focused Resonance build means that the character has 12 fewer feats to spend on other abilities which could just as easily deal massive amounts of damage (as is demonstrated by your own examples above based on Battle Jump, Jump Attack, Power Attack, et al.). Also: see my comment above. If you don't see a reason to "fix" mechanics that could possibly create issues with the current standard rules, then why are we argueing anything about the balance of psionics and just don't accept the fact that the DM has to house-rule "everything" to make psionics even usable in his campaign?I have no problem fixing mechanics that are potentially broken. But I would fix the broken mechanics where the breakage occurs, rather than randomly throughout the rest of the system. "Fixing" the mindblade feats to eliminate the combos you have a problem with doesn't actually fix the problem. Other characters can and will take advantage of those same combos, and we've just nerfed the mindblader. If we do "fix" the mindblade feats so that these combos are no longer possible, and then WotC or the individual DM "fixes" the actual broken mechanics (like the size-increase scale), then our system is useless to them, because they'll need to undo the "fix" to the feats in order to make them viable again. Sorry, but is stances like yours that created the hulking hurler... "if you don't like the official throwing rules from CWar, you're welcome to house-rule them out"...I completely disagree. My stance is that you should fix the rules when and where they are broken. If the SRD were my own private concoction, and someone demonstrated that the Hulking Hurler was a possibility, I'd do my darnedest to fix the throwing and encumbrance rules to prevent the broken-ness. Likewise with the size-increase mechanics, either by limiting expansion to a single size category increase or placing a cap on the final size you can achieve (most likely the latter). For wounding, I usually house-rule it to deal an additional point of damage per round (a bleed effect, like the old wounding ability), which makes the combos you suggest much less onerous. I've fixed the problems where they arise. I'm not saying you must do the same, but unless you can point out some combo that the mindblader has that is NOT available to other characters, I'm not going to put forth an effort to change the mindblade tree. You don't have to "shoehorn" it in. In my opinion there are always elegant ways to solve rules-issues like that - it's just the point of finding them. Why not just make the damage based on manifester levels? Like ML 1-4: 1d4+Wis mod ML 5-8: 1d6+Wis mod ML 9-12: 1d8+Wis mod ML 13-16: 1d10+Wis mod ML 17-20: 2d6+Wis mod This would allow for scaling, would not be potentially overpowered by the levels you can attain it, and would easily take out the issue of a character scaling the damage to planet-size by stacking on - legal! - increases to his size category.First off, the mindblader isn't guaranteed an ML. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of mindbladers won't have an ML. Second, you're suggested damage really puts the hurt on the low-level mindblader, who has to spend at least one feat to get damage equivalent to a dagger. If you're bound and determined to do it this way, I'd make it scale based on the Monk's unarmed damage. This system does have the drawback that taking a single feat in the tree is substantially more effective than it is now (where you have to spend additional feats to increase the damage). Of course, the damage would scale with level, but it would still allow the character to take advantage of both of the combos you've lambasted me for leaving in. A character who uses a size increase effect is still going to get a significant damage increase, and the character will still have access to the wounding special ability (unless you remove that separately). Unless you explicitly remove the ability to use those combos with the mindblade tree (which is a heavy-handed and inelegant solution, imho), your proposed system has the exact same problems you've outlined above. But ego whip is mindaffecting, and allows a save for half, while "wounding" and similar abilities (usually) do not. Also, what stops the "heavy tank" from (assuming you play in a standard setting) buying a cloak of charisma +6 to negate that tactic?I fail to understand how spending 36,000 gp to get an additional 6 Charisma is going to "negate that tactic". It makes it more difficult, but then it's also possible (and indeed, far more likely) for a character to get an amulet of health +6 to "negate" the wounding tactic. Also, the typical Will save is not that low. ... And I'm not even trying hard...Funny how your "not even trying hard" requires 75,000 gp, ECL20 (assuming you meant for poor Will saves) and a feat. That's 10% of your monetary resources and 14% of your feat resources at L20. Also, I see each point of Con damage much more lethal than the same amount of Cha damage. For each two points of Con damage you loose a number of HPs equal to your HD and take a -1 penalty to your Fort save. Take the typical fighter. What does hurt him more? Having a Con of 1 or having a Cha of 1?You're correct here, but the character with the wounding weapon still has to hit. If the fighter's AC is high enough (not unlikely), he may only take one hit per round, as opposed to the 4+ Cha damage he'd take for failing the Will save against ego whip. Ultimately, the ego whip/wounding weapon analogy isn't perfect, and you've adequately hit all the major differences. The point remains, however, that a character can accomplish the exact same effect even if the entire mindblade feat tree is banned from the game. Again, removing the ability from the mindblade character just because you feel it is too powerful, but leaving the option for every other character in the game just doesn't make sense to me.
angellis_ater 05-10-06, 12:29 AM	So the major disagreement here is that the "wounding" ability and size increases are way too powerful. Ok, I can go with that. These are OUR opinions, but apparently they are NOT Wizards. Since we are balancing within Wizards system and making rules fit for everyone to use within Wizards system (not our own) we should stay within those parameters as well. If a DM disagrees with the overaching power of wounding and size increases, he or she will see fit to change that for their game. We shouldn't impede other people's gaming. To use an analogy from this thread: It's like adding tracks to your car because some people drive in heavy terrain. Or even worse, its adding tracks to the car when you go to get it repainted. So, can we PLEASE agree to disagree? I do not feel that the Mindblade feat-tree should be balanced towards anything else but the system itself, not our (regrettably) arbitrary feelings towards what is fair or not. Right now, the feat-tree IS balanced within the system. Can we INSTEAD please either discuss something new (and add something to the general discussion) or put the discussion we have right now to the side? As far as I see, we've had it proven that a normal character with the right feats is substantially better than someone with Focused Resonance maxed out - so its not overpowered. Great! :)
angellis_ater 05-18-06, 08:51 AM	So, do we generally feel like we can agree on these feats and any balance issues?
Phoenixpyre 05-19-06, 05:50 PM	I've been using the soulknife feat tree for a game I'm playing in. Thri-kreen class levels (complete psionic) monk psiwar It has been excellent! I love the idea of the soulknife, but I never wanted to take a class specifically for a single weapon. But now I can enjoy the monk attitude with a weapon that comes from disiplining the mind. As the game progresses, i will post if any gameplay problems develop, but until then, thanks for the work. BTW: in the savage species book, is an item called the, "necklace of natural attacks" it allows you to enchant the necklace with weapon enchantments, and those enchantments affect a chosen natural attack. In this game, I will eventually purchase this item for my monastic blade. Any comments on it's use in conjunction with your existing system?
angellis_ater 05-20-06, 04:40 AM	Hi Phoenixfyre! Nice to hear that you've been trying out our system and I hope that you'll report any bugs or problems which arise, even if they are "this part is unclear". Regarding the Necklace of Natural Attacks, the Mindblade, even with Monastic Blade is still a melee weapon (although it's a monk weapon) and wouldn't benefit from the Necklace. Indeed, any such combination would make it too good considering that it advances in abilities and enhancement on its own.
Phoenixpyre 05-22-06, 11:36 AM	Regarding the Necklace of Natural Attacks, the Mindblade, even with Monastic Blade is still a melee weapon (although it's a monk weapon) and wouldn't benefit from the Necklace. Monastic Blade: Benefit: You can use your Unarmed Damage for your mindblade instead of its normal damage and your mindblade counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. I don't see where the Necklace wouldn't work, if Monastic Blade treats it as a natural attack. Some revisions might include, "is treated as a natural attack for determining monk damage," or maybe a line that says, "weapon enchantments don't stack with any other item that provides an enchantment bonus," the problem with the second rewrite, is that the psiwar has many weapon bump powers, and this might limit the effect that those have. I have no problem agreeing that the Necklace of Natural Attacks, could overpower the blade, but what, in the current system says it can't be done? In a completely unrelated note, in your personal opinion, could my ThriKreen Monk shape his mind blades(using shape mindblade feat) to produce a kind of foot blade, either as spikes or kick-dagger. I think it would be neat, just to have every appendage glowing and bladed. (Oo, just think, mind blade mandibles to enhance the bite attack.) I'd have to take 'dual wielder' 4 times at least for the bonus to be worth anything though. Don't think me rediculous please, I just get excited about this character. I know you don't generally field specific character questions, so disreguard this if it irritates you.
drunkenewok 05-22-06, 12:46 PM	Some revisions might include, "is treated as a natural attack for determining monk damage," or maybe a line that says, "weapon enchantments don't stack with any other item that provides an enchantment bonus," the problem with the second rewrite, is that the psiwar has many weapon bump powers, and this might limit the effect that those have.The second rewrite isn't necessary, because the benefit provided by the Amulet is an enhancement bonus to your natural attack. The benefit provided by the mindblade is an enhancement bonus to your mindblade, which with the benefit of Monastic Blade also counts as a natural attack. However, since both benefits provide the same named bonus (i.e. an enhancement bonus to attacks and damage), they do not stack by the base d20-system stacking rules. Thus if your character has 8 mindblade feats at L15, he would have a +4/+4 mindblade. If he also has the proposed necklace of natural attacks +5, then his mindblade would function as a +5/+4 weapon (since the necklace has a higher bonus, it overlaps with the normal +4 bonus from the mindblade feats). As a random aside, the 3.5e SRD includes the amulet of mighty fists, which provides exactly this functionality, and I'd see no major issue in creating a new magic item which provides equivalent bonuses to mindblade weaponry. I'm not certain the pricing is fair, given that the amulet of mighty fists costs three-times what a comparable manufactured weapon would cost AND takes up a body-slot, but it's at least a starting point. I'm not certain if the item in question provides access to special abilities (ala frost or keen, which the amulet of mighty fists does not), but if it does, I would be careful to judge the potential effects. Assuming you cannot easily change the special abilities the amulet provides and that the gp/xp cost of adding those special abilities is at least equivalent to the cost of adding special abilities to a weapon, I don't think I'd have too much issue with it. The worst abuse I could foresee is the ability to add more than +5 enhancement bonus worth of special abilities to your mindblade, but doing so would require a substantial investment in both feat and monetary resources. Example: A L20 Mindblader with at least 10 mindblade feats would have a +5/+5 mindblade. If the character also possessed a keen holy acid burst amulet of natural attacks +1, you could theoretically have a total +5/+10 weapon. While similar levels of enhancement are currently available via projectile weapons, they require a substantially higher investment in resources (geting a +5/+5 projectile weapon, and +1/+5 ammunition, which you'd have to pay 72,000gp for every 50 units of ammunition). I'm not 100% certain that allowing the abilities to stack would be overpowering in every case, but there are undoubtedly combinations that could easily be overpowering. As a potential compromise, I'd probably allow a character with an necklace of natural attacks to choose whether to apply the special abilities from his amulet or those from his mindblade feats whenever he materializes the blade. could my ThriKreen Monk shape his mind blades(using shape mindblade feat) to produce a kind of foot blade, either as spikes or kick-dagger. I think it would be neat, just to have every appendage glowing and bladed. (Oo, just think, mind blade mandibles to enhance the bite attack.) I'd have to take 'dual wielder' 4 times at least for the bonus to be worth anything though. Don't think me rediculous please, I just get excited about this character.I'd probably allow it, so long as the character in question has the option to use all of those appendages as valid weapons. For a thri-kreen monk, you do fulfill that requirement. Just remember that you can't reduce your effective mindblade enhancement below 0, and if you reduce it to 0, you lose any of the mindblade special abilities. This usage would probably benefit from the necklace of natural attacks, since you could keep your enhancement bonus to near-normal levels no matter how many mindblades you materialize.
angellis_ater 05-22-06, 12:54 PM	Now that you point it out Phoenixpyre I feel kinda stupid. I must have missed that very line when I re-read Monastic Blade and made the comment. Oh well, right now my suggestion would simply be either an amendment to the Mindblade feat which states something like "the amount of special abilities provided cannot be exceeded, although magic items might provide the mindblade with a greater choice of special abilities" or simply say that by the 3.5 rules an "Amulet of Natural Attacks" should use the "mighty fists" calculations (ie 3 times the cost) and thereby completely legal. Regarding the second question I refer to drunkenewoks reply.
angellis_ater 06-27-06, 06:29 PM	Ok - now Wizards have been diddling back and forth regarding their "snapshot" and I feel like we might and should revise the feats taken from Complete Psionic - sure they were "copied" into the system but they feel kindof... well... plastic.
angellis_ater 07-29-06, 03:50 AM	I've been thinking and a feat which recharges your Resonant Strike is pretty cool and I am sure we already have the "Undead Hunter" flavour done in our Mindblade Feat-tree.
Tempest Stormwind 07-29-06, 04:13 AM	Here's another idea: UTP's Open Game. Feel free to use the mantra structure for feats. (First time posting on this thread, but I've been a long-time supporter of the project, and love the result.)
angellis_ater 09-06-06, 03:38 PM	First of all, thanks Tempest for the support - it's nice to know! :-) I'll look over the Mantra feats again from UTP and see how they can relate to the Mindblades. Drunkenewok: Have we come to any kind of decision regarding the "new feats"? Do we add them in, revise them again or throw them out?
angellis_ater 09-14-06, 05:21 AM	Bump?
angellis_ater 09-28-06, 05:44 AM	BRAAAAANDON? Do we like the new feats or hate them? Do we bump this thread for more ideas? Do I got some cool ideas for Incarnum-based feats? YEAH! Bumpity! For new readers - please check the first post for a link to the Mindblade feat tree. Discussions from page 9 and forward are still "valid" so to speak.
Artector 09-28-06, 07:55 PM	I haven't read the discussion, so I don't know the arguments. I have read the feats though. But I had a question/proposition. How bad would it be to construct a Monk Style tree with the Mind Blade?
angellis_ater 09-29-06, 12:06 PM	I intend to the very thing, although there is another project which takes up some of my time.
angellis_ater 10-01-06, 10:14 AM	I've designed what I call a "Ki Style" around the premise of the Mindblade open to any Monk with a psionic background (either racial or featwise) which I will be expanding on later. Right now though the three current "monk"-feats will have to do. Other ideas, questions or suggestions?
Artector 10-01-06, 08:06 PM	About the 'monk' feats. I have a problem with enlightened warrior. Its has concentration 12 as a prereq, yet you say it can be taken at 1, 2, or 6 level. And they must meet the prereqs. (max ranks @ 6th is 9 so...)
angellis_ater 10-01-06, 08:32 PM	And, as has been said twice before, you can still multiclass and be of a different character level than your Monk levels. You can be of a race with racial hit die and so forth. The Ki Style I am working on does lift these restrictions, but that is for another, more revelatory posting. For those that dare to dream.
Artector 10-01-06, 08:38 PM	You know, that makes a little more sense. Of course monks have that d*** multiclassing stuff. I built my own (style), pretty short and simple, nothing fancy. It was hard to pin down. Mind's Blade 1st level skill bonus: Concentration 1st level feat: Form Mindblade 2cd level feat: Monastic Blade 6th level feat: Material Harmonics 6th level bonus ability: You may add your wisdom modifier to an attack roll 1/day. (+1/day per 4 monk levels, max 5) Prerequistites: Concentration 9 ranks , Tumble 4 ranks
angellis_ater 10-01-06, 08:49 PM	To be honest that wasn't far from what I was thinking either! I like the 6th level bonus ability which meshes really well with the "mystic warrior" feeling it has. Any name for the style? Diamond Mind?
Artector 10-01-06, 08:53 PM	I jsut went for Mind's Blade, feel free to rename. Perhaps a "lucid" thing... Lucid Mind Lucid Strike
angellis_ater 11-07-06, 05:58 PM	Lucid Mindblade Style sounds pretty nice! PS. Brandon / Drunkenewok - feel free to return!
Artector 11-07-06, 06:14 PM	Its been working pretty well. But I gotta say, my monk's been a pretty darn heavy hitter with this. Almost a little too...
angellis_ater 11-08-06, 07:52 AM	This is extremely interesting, please elaborate a little. Why is he a heavy hitter? Anything in particular?
Artector 11-08-06, 03:34 PM	It may be the creatures are a little lower level than they necessarily would be in a 4 person party, or it may be I'm good at building characters. As is I"m 6th level and do 2d6+5 damage with a 17-20/x2 threat range. I could tweak it around a little... Anyways, I'll be back in a bit a post my character sheet, maybe that'll give you a better picture.
Artector 11-08-06, 05:26 PM	Maybe this will make my point more apparent. As far as I can tell the problem may be in the style. It may be giving me too many feats, and make me do a little more than a monk should. BTW, future plans are to go into Psionic Fist next level, and grab either another mindblade feat @ 9th, or get Psionic Body. Iaturis Kalashtar Monk 6 HP: 40 (8+1+4.5+1+4.5+1+4.5+1+4.5+1+4.5+1) AC: 16 =10+1+0+3+1+1 -FF: 15 -Touch: 15 Speed: 50 Initiative: +3 Action Points: 8/8 Str: 16 +3 Dex: 12 +1 Con: 13 +1 Int: 10 +0 Wis: 14 +2 (16 +3) Cha: 10 +0 Fort: +6 (+5+1) Ref: +6 (+5+1) Will: +8 (+5+3) Melee: +7 (4+3) Ranged: +5 (4+1) Attacks: Mindblade (+2, keen) -+9 2d6+5 17-20/x2 -+7 2d6+5 17-20/x2 30 ft Shuriken (9) +5 1d2+3 x2 10 FT Full Attack: Mindblade (+2, keen) -+9 2d6+4 17-20/x2 Or -+7/+7 2d6+4 17-20/x2 Or +5/+5 2d6+4 17-20/x2 30 FT Shuriken (9) +5 1d2+3 x2 10 FT or +3/+3 1d2+3 10 FT Skills: (36) Balance Climb +5 (2+3) Concentration +12 (9+1+2) Craft Diplomacy +4 (1+0+1+2) Escape Artist Hide Jump Knowledge (arcana) Knowledge (religion) +9 (9+0) Listen +5 (2+3) Move Silently Perform (dance) +3 (1+0+2) (+2 synergy from tumble) Profession Sense Motive Spot +6 (3+3) Swim Tumble +10 (9+1) Feats: Soulblade Warrior Form Mindblade (b) Monastic Blade (b) Throw Mindblade Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) Material Harmonics (b) Class/Racial Abilities: Evasion Unarmed Strike AC bonus Flurry of Blows Still Mind Slow Fall (30 feet) Ki strike (magic) Purity of Body Mind's Blade 1st level skill bonus: Concentration 1st level feat: Form Mindblade 2cd level feat: Monastic Blade 6th level feat: Material Harmonics 6th level bonus ability: You may add your wisdom modifier to an attack roll 1/day. (+1/day per 4 monk levels, max 5) Prerequisites: Concentration 9 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks Kalashtar Racial Traits Medium: As Medium creatures, kalashtar have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Kalashtar base land speed is 30 feet. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells and effects, and possession: The kalashtar's dual spirits help them resist spells that target their minds. +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks: The kalashtar are masters of social interaction, influencing others through their commanding presence and subtle psychic powers. +2 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a human: Kalashtar have a close physical resemblance to humans. Immunity to the dream and nightmare spells, as well as any other effect that relies on the character dreaming: The kalashtar do not dream. Naturally Psionic: Kalashtar gain 1 extra power point per character level, regardless of whether they choose a psionic class. Psi-like Abilities: Mindlink (1/day). This ability is like the power manifested by a wilder of 1/2 the kalashtar's Hit Dice (minimum 1st level). Equipment: Glamerweave Monk's Outfit (1) (105) Camping Equipment (20) Backpack (1) Everburning Amulet (110) Alchemist Fire (2) (50) Caltrops (1) Color Vial Letter of Credit (50 GP, 300 GP at Kalashtar or Morgrave) Dragonshard Detector Translucent Khyber shards Inspired Notes Bracers of Armor +1 2 Vials Black Liquid Headband of Wisdom (+2) Feather Fall Token Potion of: Brooch of Shielding (96 damage left) Tattoos: Float (1) (50) Precognition (1) (50) Gold: 238 GP XP: 16,975 XP Languages: Common Quor
rampant 11-09-06, 03:23 AM	I've taken a look at the current incarnation of the feats, overall very good, well-balanced and still effective, But: 1.) Taking the feat again for every +1d8 of extra psychic strike damage is harsh, especially if you want to use the knife to the soul ability. 2.) The soul armor feat seems a little too good to me, thats one feat for a likely +3 or higher armor boost, makes me leary 3.) Mental armory again, taking the feat every time you want to add another one seems harsh 4.) The sheild feats are a little fuzzy on this, can you enhance the shield with abilities? 4a.) Why no love for heavy or tower? 5.) Where is the epic mindblade abilities list? 6.) Would the published soulknife feats ( that don't already have counterparts in the list ) still add to the potencial pool for enhancements?
angellis_ater 11-09-06, 05:11 AM	As I have previously suspected, the problem does seem to arise with the "ability" of the Monastic Blade to count as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon - thus allowing for Improved Natural Attack approx 3 levels before "Oversize Blade" would be. My suggested errata would be to have the line referring to "counts as a manufactured and natural weapon" be changed to: "for the purpose of spells and powers, the mindblade counts as a manufactured and natural weapon"
angellis_ater 11-09-06, 07:35 AM	I've taken a look at the current incarnation of the feats, overall very good, well-balanced and still effective, But: 1.) Taking the feat again for every +1d8 of extra psychic strike damage is harsh, especially if you want to use the knife to the soul ability. Considering that the damage is now effective against any kind of creature, and does psychic damage which passes through Damage Reduction I wouldn't say so, especially since just taking the feat also enhances your mindblade. 2.) The soul armor feat seems a little too good to me, thats one feat for a likely +3 or higher armor boost, makes me leary Considering that it requires a previous investment of 4 feats and 15 ranks of Concentration and can thereby be taken at level 12 at first - I wouldn't think so. Especially since he could use that feat to get something offensively better like Bladewind. The bonus from this feat, at this level, is nothing which cannot be more easily gained with a Ring of Protection. 3.) Mental armory again, taking the feat every time you want to add another one seems harsh Why? The ability to have for example a generic "+2 collision longsword" AND a more specific "+2 human bane keen longsword" available to change at a move action is a potent ability. You can also change this allotment when you meditate to change around whatever special abilities your mindblade has, so as long as you have some idea of what you are going to meet you can BOTH specialize and generalize. Having the ability to prepare your mindblade for MORE than one different occasion should be well worth the feat. Especially since it also enhances your mindblade. 4.) The sheild feats are a little fuzzy on this, can you enhance the shield with abilities? Yes, with the "Energized Shield" feat you get a +1 special ability to add to the shield. The apparent problem seems to be that we haven't completed the shield (or epic) special abilities lists and posted them. Will fix this. 4a.) Why no love for heavy or tower? Improved Shield of Thought? 5.) Where is the epic mindblade abilities list? Excellent catch! I've not had the ability to playtest the mindblade feats at an epic level personally so it has fallen out of mind. I will post a list for both this and the shield. 6.) Would the published soulknife feats ( that don't already have counterparts in the list ) still add to the potencial pool for enhancements? Not really. An unchecked addition to this project could easily mis- or unbalance the whole concept and make it alot more powerful than it was meant to be. In my upcoming project I have converted some feats from Untapped Potential for example, which should suffice. Thanks for the questions and I hope you'll return if you have more questions!
angellis_ater 11-21-06, 08:37 PM	Considering that it requires a previous investment of 4 feats and 15 ranks of Concentration and can thereby be taken at level 12 at first - I wouldn't think so. Especially since he could use that feat to get something offensively better like Bladewind. The bonus from this feat, at this level, is nothing which cannot be more easily gained with a Ring of Protection. Actually, with the release of Dragonmarked this almost becomes pretty bad for a feat since there's a "Dragonmark" feat in there which gives you a Deflection bonus to AC (+1-+4 I believe) with ONE feat as a prerequisite.
WinterPsionic 11-21-06, 09:27 PM	As I have previously suspected, the problem does seem to arise with the "ability" of the Monastic Blade to count as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon - thus allowing for Improved Natural Attack approx 3 levels before "Oversize Blade" would be. My suggested errata would be to have the line referring to "counts as a manufactured and natural weapon" be changed to: "for the purpose of spells and powers, the mindblade counts as a manufactured and natural weapon" Personally I think allowing it to be treated as a natural weapon is the biggest (and really only) flaw to this entire project, it completely unbalances several ascpetcs of "Natural Weapons" and as demonstrated by Artector, is rather unbalanced, doing 2 2D6+ Attacks at lvl 8 for a melee character is kind of excessive...at least in my mind....even though I can't quite figure out how he get's it to the 2D6 base dmg....
angellis_ater 11-22-06, 05:13 AM	Personally I think allowing it to be treated as a natural weapon is the biggest (and really only) flaw to this entire project, it completely unbalances several ascpetcs of "Natural Weapons" and as demonstrated by Artector, is rather unbalanced, doing 2 2D6+ Attacks at lvl 8 for a melee character is kind of excessive...at least in my mind....even though I can't quite figure out how he get's it to the 2D6 base dmg.... Which is what I said above, since it allows him to utilize Improved Natural Weapon for his Mindblade 3 levels before Oversize Mindblade was meant to be available. This will be rectified, the only problem is that I can't get my hands on DrunkenEwok (Brandon Horn) who updates the website. Monastic Blade allows him to utilize his scaling Monk Unarmed Damage for the weapon instead of damage based on form. At 6th level his base monk damage is 1d8, which together with Improved Natural Attack goes up to 2d6. Although I must mention that a normal, sucky, Fighter does atleast 2x 2d6+bonuses with a simple Greatsword, available from level 1. Beyond getting INA a little too early (since he gets enhancement bonuses and special abilities from his mindblade as well) I wouldn't say that it breaks anything all that much.
angellis_ater 11-27-06, 08:10 PM	What basic Ranged and Epic Enhancements would people want to see?
Artector 11-27-06, 08:16 PM	I'd like a feat to enhance the range one can throw their mindblade. Or if a thrown weapon going 60-80 feet is unbalancing, perhaps it could become more bow-like, and then from that you could have "Mighty" feats, letting you add str bonus to it.
angellis_ater 12-02-06, 08:17 PM	But doesn't the above suggested "Mind Arrow" do exactly that? Increase your range to 110 feet INCREMENTS by using the Mind Arrows instead. Or just keep on using the Mindblade as is since the range of 30 feet is an increment and you can throw it up to 300 feet (10 increments).
Artector 12-02-06, 08:32 PM	But doesn't the above suggested "Mind Arrow" do exactly that? Increase your range to 110 feet INCREMENTS by using the Mind Arrows instead. Sorry? Or just keep on using the Mindblade as is since the range of 30 feet is an increment and you can throw it up to 300 feet (10 increments). Still a little confused. Maybe I'm misisng something about ranged attacks...
angellis_ater 12-03-06, 11:13 AM	One of the suggested feat adaptions from Complete Psionic was a feat called "Mind Arrow" - it basically gives you an arrow with a base damage of 1d8 + Wisdom bonus (if I remember correctly) and a range increment of 110 feet. Now this never was included into drunkenewoks website since he left the development at one stage but its still in the thread. Oh, and most ranged attacks have a range increment, this is not a maximum range at which it can be used, but the maximum range at which it can be thrown or used without a penalty to hit. For example, the Thrown Mindblade has a range increment of 30 feet. If you throw at someone 45 feet away you take -2 to hit (for each time you pass the range increment). So, 65 feet you get -4 and so forth.
Artector 12-03-06, 11:20 AM	One of the suggested feat adaptions from Complete Psionic was a feat called "Mind Arrow" - it basically gives you an arrow with a base damage of 1d8 + Wisdom bonus (if I remember correctly) and a range increment of 110 feet. Now this never was included into drunkenewoks website since he left the development at one stage but its still in the thread. Ok, that makes more sense. I haven't really read CompPsi. Oh, and most ranged attacks have a range increment, this is not a maximum range at which it can be used, but the maximum range at which it can be thrown or used without a penalty to hit. For example, the Thrown Mindblade has a range increment of 30 feet. If you throw at someone 45 feet away you take -2 to hit (for each time you pass the range increment). So, 65 feet you get -4 and so forth. I think the Mind Arrow reference threw me, I was jsut going off the posted feats, not the ones in the book. Actually I did use the increment rules with my mindblade, killed an undead bird 60' feet up. You asked for ranged-things, if we start off with a bow-shape then you could have more feats, and thusly more options for the soulknife. I should say that I have divorced the Soulknife as Feats from an pre-existing PrC's. (Imagine being a monk with these feats who goes into Atavist...)
angellis_ater 12-03-06, 04:57 PM	Ok, that makes more sense. I haven't really read CompPsi. But I think that particular feat-adaption was in this thread. Take a look and I'm sure you'll find it. As I said earlier it's not among the posted feats at toosigma.com because Brandon Horn left this project about at that time. Don't know why though. I think the Mind Arrow reference threw me, I was jsut going off the posted feats, not the ones in the book. Actually I did use the increment rules with my mindblade, killed an undead bird 60' feet up. Then you're set! :-) You asked for ranged-things, if we start off with a bow-shape then you could have more feats, and thusly more options for the soulknife. I should say that I have divorced the Soulknife as Feats from an pre-existing PrC's. (Imagine being a monk with these feats who goes into Atavist...) I don't know if we actually NEED all that many more feats at the moment. It's almost at the point of being overwhelming as it is and what we already have is extremely flexible in its implementation. Most Prestige Classes should be usable as they are though, even though they might require some rewording or rephrasing for some abilities.
angellis_ater 12-04-06, 03:46 AM	At the moment I feel that perhaps a bunch of Ranged Enhancements for the Mind Arrow is overdoing the project and I think I'll stay with a few enhancements for the Shield and the Epic Mindblades.
angellis_ater 01-12-07, 09:06 AM	Does anyone else have criticism, ideas or any kind of feedback on this project? Do I need to repost the feats inside the thread or does the toosigma.com link work well enough for you guys?
angellis_ater 02-09-07, 03:39 AM	*bump* Feedback anyone?
angellis_ater 05-27-07, 03:04 PM	So the last four posts have been me and all me. No feedback because this is perfect then?
Dwarvenrune 07-01-07, 04:06 AM	I enjoy these ideas, I'm going to incorporate it into my DFA build
angellis_ater 07-01-07, 06:27 AM	Might I ask what a DFA build is?
Fafnir 07-01-07, 07:06 AM	Mmmm... Dragonfire Adept?
angellis_ater 07-02-07, 06:03 AM	Oh! In that case it would be very interesting to see the build here, since I'd love to see how people implement these ideas in a creative fashion.