Soulknife question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Soulknife question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Legdiwena
10-19-07, 01:31 PM Do Soulknives have a manifester level to qualify for feats like Psicrystal Affinity?
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 01:36 PM I would say no. But I dont think Im right on this one. Since it says that they cant manfest powers they just have two Power points. >.<
Legdiwena
10-19-07, 01:41 PM So I would need to dip a lvl in psion to get the feat?
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 02:05 PM So I would need to dip a lvl in psion to get the feat?

You'd need a manifester level of at least 1st. That means you need a level of a manifesting class (Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, etc) or a race with psi-like abilities (Dromite, Duergar, Maenad, etc). Note that while Soulknife is not a manifesting class, it is a psionic class (according to XPH p. 17), and psicrystal abilities are based on your total level in psionic classes (XPH p. 22).

Interestingly enough, it looks like that means a character with a racial psi-like ability, but no levels in psionic classes, can qualify for Psicrystal Affinity, but the resulting psicrystal will lack all psicrystal special abilities...
Legdiwena
10-19-07, 02:12 PM I want that feat so I can progress on to Elemental Envoy, would Elan count with his ability to use power points for specialized effects?
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 02:36 PM I want that feat so I can progress on to Elemental Envoy, would Elan count with his ability to use power points for specialized effects?

No, the Elan's abilities are Supernatural. Since he doesn't have any Psi-Like abilities, he doesn't have a manifester level.

By the way, what do you plan to do with an Elemental Envoy? They're relatively nice at low levels, but their effectiveness quickly tapers off since they don't gain any new abilities as you level up.
TheKeyofE
10-19-07, 02:37 PM Sadly, no, because the special abilities don't have a manifester level (as compared to a dromite or maenad, who's special ability has manifester level = 1/2 HD)
SlanderPanic
10-19-07, 02:42 PM I wouldn't count psi-like abilities for qualifying as actual manifester levels any more than I'd count spell-like abilities as actual spellcasting ability. I do, however, count soulknife levels when determining psicrystal abilities, per XPH page 22.

Dipping into psychic warrior for a level or two is certainly worthwhile for a soulknife, especially if your campaign allows use of the Mind-Blade Kensai feat from Untapped Potential. With two levels of psychic warrior, you shore up your weak Fort save, gain two powers, at least one power point, a point of BAB, two d8 hit dice, martial weapon proficiency, and two bonus feats. Depending on your race, you might end up taking an XP penalty for multiclassing, though.

On the other hand, you could also work toward war mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm). Two levels of war mind nets you +2 to BAB, two d10 hit dice, good Fort and Will saves, two powers, at least five power points, and the ability to boost your Str, Con, and AC by +2 for one minute three times a day and as free actions. Since it's a prestige class, you won't have to worry about taking multiclass XP penalties. If you choose to stick with war mind beyond the first two levels, you'll find that bladewind and sweeping strike make one hell of a combo.
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 05:23 PM I wouldn't count psi-like abilities for qualifying as actual manifester levels any more than I'd count spell-like abilities as actual spellcasting ability.

Note that the prerequisite is "manifester level 1st", not "ability to manifest level 1 powers". A character with psi-like abilities has a manifester level, just as a character with spell-like abilities has a caster level.
Sagetim
10-20-07, 12:14 AM Do Soulknives have a manifester level to qualify for feats like Psicrystal Affinity?

souknife has no manifester levels. It is not a manifester class. You would need at least one level of psion, erudite, psychic warrior, or wilder to get a manifester level. If the class has a powers list, it's a manifester. Soulknife has no powers list. It has class abilities, but no 'powers'.

I'm not sure weather or not a psi like ability would give actual manifester levels or not. As far as I'm concerned it's up to the DM running the campaign. However, the arguments for each side would be useful to have on hand. Here they are:

The Psi like ability has a manifester level equal to one half the character's hit die.
people who are pro 'it's a manifester level' could say that means the character has a manifester level equal to one half their hit die. Which, could also lead to someone playing a level 11 fighter/1 psion. With a manifester level equal to 6 because their psi like ability gives them a manifester level equal to 'one half hit die'. The person might then go on to say that they can manifest their psion powers at manifester level 6 (thus being able to blast out an energy ray for 6d6etc with only one psion level). I'll let others judge the legitimacy of that.

Others might state that the line in question means that for that psi like ability, the character has a ml of one half their hit die, and none otherwise (unless they have classes). This could lead to someone with a psion 10 who can manifest the maenads energy ray at ml 5 for free once per day, and only use it after that if they know the power on their class list (in which case they could use it at their ml of 10.)

I'm leaning more towards the second explanation, which allows less game breaking. However, that doesn't exactly answer the question. Which is 'Can I use 'effective manifester levels' gained from psi like abilities to qualify for feats?' The answer is up to your DM really. And if you're coming to the internet to ask someone to give you an answer, I'll give you this one: The DM has the final say.

If they want to let you go route one, and qualifty based on a psi like ability, good for them. and lucky you, you get to qualify for more feats. If they don't, then take it in stride and build your character to reflect the character, rather than a build. The name of the game isn't Munchkin d20. It's DND. Build your character to reflect their nature, rather than trying to make them powerful for the sake of being powerful.
Fafnir
10-20-07, 05:09 PM The name of the game isn't Munchkin d20.

... yet. Time to bring out the Plutonium Dragons in my campaign! :D
turalisj
10-20-07, 08:27 PM Only if I get my Thorium Dragon!
ElecWolf
10-20-07, 11:03 PM I could have sworn I remembered something about prestige classes with manifester boosts allowing those to count for purposes of raising Soulknife abilities... Could be a direction to look...
turalisj
10-20-07, 11:13 PM Could you tell me where you got that from?
CrimsonDeath
10-21-07, 12:10 AM I could have sworn I remembered something about prestige classes with manifester boosts allowing those to count for purposes of raising Soulknife abilities... Could be a direction to look...

I think that was a rule from Untapped Potential, a third-party source book available through Dreamscarred Press.
Sagetim
10-21-07, 12:14 AM fine then, if you're using a plotonium dragon, I'll use my phaser-master-baser-bananafana-fo-faser-memimomaser.

and a third arm, and another one of those things, and 5 buddies similarly armed. :P
turalisj
10-21-07, 12:15 AM Then I get to summon anime characters :P
ElecWolf
10-21-07, 03:46 AM I think that was a rule from Untapped Potential, a third-party source book available through Dreamscarred Press.

That is entirely possible... I absorb random information like a sponge.
And return it in the same manner...
Legdiwena
10-22-07, 02:47 PM XPH says that manifester level is levels in a psionic class, is Soulknife considered a psionic class?

Elelmental Envoy don't gain HP/Saves/BAB like familiars do?
CrimsonDeath
10-22-07, 04:10 PM Elelmental Envoy don't gain HP/Saves/BAB like familiars do?

Nothing says they do, so they don't.
Legdiwena
10-22-07, 04:19 PM That's just wrong, psionics is only area with a non-scaling pet.
turalisj
10-22-07, 04:47 PM That's because you have the old 1st ed and 2nd ed people who remember when psionics was broken that start marching through the streets demanding nerfs.
Lycanthromancer
10-23-07, 01:25 PM ...For absolutely no reason at all.

They fail. AT LIFE.
Legdiwena
10-23-07, 01:31 PM Will check with DM about houseruling the Envoy, would advancing their hp/saves/bab go as familiars, animal companions or some other way seem reasonable?
Lycanthromancer
10-23-07, 01:35 PM What about as elementals? Look in the Monster Manual for details.
Legdiwena
10-23-07, 01:47 PM I'll have to check it when I get home, keep them 2 HD lower?
Lycanthromancer
10-23-07, 01:56 PM Just add 1 HD every time its manifester gains a level in a psionic class.
Legdiwena
10-23-07, 02:13 PM Are there penalties if they die? Would I have to burn a feat to get a new one?
Lycanthromancer
10-23-07, 02:27 PM Much like Psicrystal Affinity, there is no official answer. I'd say no, but then, I'd probably force the character in question to use psychic reformation to re-take the feat. :P
Legdiwena
10-24-07, 02:34 PM I extrapolated him into a spreadsheet to level 20, how can I put it up here for evaluation?
Lycanthromancer
10-25-07, 02:03 PM Take screenshots using the Print Screen button, put it up on Photobucket.com, then toss the link on the forums?
Legdiwena
10-25-07, 03:26 PM http://www.freedrive.com/public-upload/view/12253

Let me know what you think, I can also give the spreadsheet I worked everything up from if you need it. Tried Photobucket, but can't access screenshot file since I'm using a public computer.
mod5000
10-26-07, 03:39 AM If you're looking for a one-class level dip for a psicrystal, look no further than the Erudite in Complete Psionic (one of the better parts of that book). At first level they not only get a bonus feat, but also Psicrystal Affinity for free.
Legdiwena
10-26-07, 03:17 PM Looking at playing an Elan and Psion is their favored class, don't care for 18 levels of xp penalties.
CrimsonDeath
10-26-07, 03:59 PM Erudite is described as a "variant psion", so you might be able to make that fly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legdiwena 10-19-07, 01:31 PM	Do Soulknives have a manifester level to qualify for feats like Psicrystal Affinity?
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 01:36 PM	I would say no. But I dont think Im right on this one. Since it says that they cant manfest powers they just have two Power points. >.<
Legdiwena 10-19-07, 01:41 PM	So I would need to dip a lvl in psion to get the feat?
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 02:05 PM	So I would need to dip a lvl in psion to get the feat? You'd need a manifester level of at least 1st. That means you need a level of a manifesting class (Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, etc) or a race with psi-like abilities (Dromite, Duergar, Maenad, etc). Note that while Soulknife is not a manifesting class, it is a psionic class (according to XPH p. 17), and psicrystal abilities are based on your total level in psionic classes (XPH p. 22). Interestingly enough, it looks like that means a character with a racial psi-like ability, but no levels in psionic classes, can qualify for Psicrystal Affinity, but the resulting psicrystal will lack all psicrystal special abilities...
Legdiwena 10-19-07, 02:12 PM	I want that feat so I can progress on to Elemental Envoy, would Elan count with his ability to use power points for specialized effects?
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 02:36 PM	I want that feat so I can progress on to Elemental Envoy, would Elan count with his ability to use power points for specialized effects? No, the Elan's abilities are Supernatural. Since he doesn't have any Psi-Like abilities, he doesn't have a manifester level. By the way, what do you plan to do with an Elemental Envoy? They're relatively nice at low levels, but their effectiveness quickly tapers off since they don't gain any new abilities as you level up.
TheKeyofE 10-19-07, 02:37 PM	Sadly, no, because the special abilities don't have a manifester level (as compared to a dromite or maenad, who's special ability has manifester level = 1/2 HD)
SlanderPanic 10-19-07, 02:42 PM	I wouldn't count psi-like abilities for qualifying as actual manifester levels any more than I'd count spell-like abilities as actual spellcasting ability. I do, however, count soulknife levels when determining psicrystal abilities, per XPH page 22. Dipping into psychic warrior for a level or two is certainly worthwhile for a soulknife, especially if your campaign allows use of the Mind-Blade Kensai feat from Untapped Potential. With two levels of psychic warrior, you shore up your weak Fort save, gain two powers, at least one power point, a point of BAB, two d8 hit dice, martial weapon proficiency, and two bonus feats. Depending on your race, you might end up taking an XP penalty for multiclassing, though. On the other hand, you could also work toward war mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm). Two levels of war mind nets you +2 to BAB, two d10 hit dice, good Fort and Will saves, two powers, at least five power points, and the ability to boost your Str, Con, and AC by +2 for one minute three times a day and as free actions. Since it's a prestige class, you won't have to worry about taking multiclass XP penalties. If you choose to stick with war mind beyond the first two levels, you'll find that bladewind and sweeping strike make one hell of a combo.
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 05:23 PM	I wouldn't count psi-like abilities for qualifying as actual manifester levels any more than I'd count spell-like abilities as actual spellcasting ability. Note that the prerequisite is "manifester level 1st", not "ability to manifest level 1 powers". A character with psi-like abilities has a manifester level, just as a character with spell-like abilities has a caster level.
Sagetim 10-20-07, 12:14 AM	Do Soulknives have a manifester level to qualify for feats like Psicrystal Affinity? souknife has no manifester levels. It is not a manifester class. You would need at least one level of psion, erudite, psychic warrior, or wilder to get a manifester level. If the class has a powers list, it's a manifester. Soulknife has no powers list. It has class abilities, but no 'powers'. I'm not sure weather or not a psi like ability would give actual manifester levels or not. As far as I'm concerned it's up to the DM running the campaign. However, the arguments for each side would be useful to have on hand. Here they are: The Psi like ability has a manifester level equal to one half the character's hit die. people who are pro 'it's a manifester level' could say that means the character has a manifester level equal to one half their hit die. Which, could also lead to someone playing a level 11 fighter/1 psion. With a manifester level equal to 6 because their psi like ability gives them a manifester level equal to 'one half hit die'. The person might then go on to say that they can manifest their psion powers at manifester level 6 (thus being able to blast out an energy ray for 6d6etc with only one psion level). I'll let others judge the legitimacy of that. Others might state that the line in question means that for that psi like ability, the character has a ml of one half their hit die, and none otherwise (unless they have classes). This could lead to someone with a psion 10 who can manifest the maenads energy ray at ml 5 for free once per day, and only use it after that if they know the power on their class list (in which case they could use it at their ml of 10.) I'm leaning more towards the second explanation, which allows less game breaking. However, that doesn't exactly answer the question. Which is 'Can I use 'effective manifester levels' gained from psi like abilities to qualify for feats?' The answer is up to your DM really. And if you're coming to the internet to ask someone to give you an answer, I'll give you this one: The DM has the final say. If they want to let you go route one, and qualifty based on a psi like ability, good for them. and lucky you, you get to qualify for more feats. If they don't, then take it in stride and build your character to reflect the character, rather than a build. The name of the game isn't Munchkin d20. It's DND. Build your character to reflect their nature, rather than trying to make them powerful for the sake of being powerful.
Fafnir 10-20-07, 05:09 PM	The name of the game isn't Munchkin d20. ... yet. Time to bring out the Plutonium Dragons in my campaign! :D
turalisj 10-20-07, 08:27 PM	Only if I get my Thorium Dragon!
ElecWolf 10-20-07, 11:03 PM	I could have sworn I remembered something about prestige classes with manifester boosts allowing those to count for purposes of raising Soulknife abilities... Could be a direction to look...
turalisj 10-20-07, 11:13 PM	Could you tell me where you got that from?
CrimsonDeath 10-21-07, 12:10 AM	I could have sworn I remembered something about prestige classes with manifester boosts allowing those to count for purposes of raising Soulknife abilities... Could be a direction to look... I think that was a rule from Untapped Potential, a third-party source book available through Dreamscarred Press.
Sagetim 10-21-07, 12:14 AM	fine then, if you're using a plotonium dragon, I'll use my phaser-master-baser-bananafana-fo-faser-memimomaser. and a third arm, and another one of those things, and 5 buddies similarly armed. :P
turalisj 10-21-07, 12:15 AM	Then I get to summon anime characters :P
ElecWolf 10-21-07, 03:46 AM	I think that was a rule from Untapped Potential, a third-party source book available through Dreamscarred Press. That is entirely possible... I absorb random information like a sponge. And return it in the same manner...
Legdiwena 10-22-07, 02:47 PM	XPH says that manifester level is levels in a psionic class, is Soulknife considered a psionic class? Elelmental Envoy don't gain HP/Saves/BAB like familiars do?
CrimsonDeath 10-22-07, 04:10 PM	Elelmental Envoy don't gain HP/Saves/BAB like familiars do? Nothing says they do, so they don't.
Legdiwena 10-22-07, 04:19 PM	That's just wrong, psionics is only area with a non-scaling pet.
turalisj 10-22-07, 04:47 PM	That's because you have the old 1st ed and 2nd ed people who remember when psionics was broken that start marching through the streets demanding nerfs.
Lycanthromancer 10-23-07, 01:25 PM	...For absolutely no reason at all. They fail. AT LIFE.
Legdiwena 10-23-07, 01:31 PM	Will check with DM about houseruling the Envoy, would advancing their hp/saves/bab go as familiars, animal companions or some other way seem reasonable?
Lycanthromancer 10-23-07, 01:35 PM	What about as elementals? Look in the Monster Manual for details.
Legdiwena 10-23-07, 01:47 PM	I'll have to check it when I get home, keep them 2 HD lower?
Lycanthromancer 10-23-07, 01:56 PM	Just add 1 HD every time its manifester gains a level in a psionic class.
Legdiwena 10-23-07, 02:13 PM	Are there penalties if they die? Would I have to burn a feat to get a new one?
Lycanthromancer 10-23-07, 02:27 PM	Much like Psicrystal Affinity, there is no official answer. I'd say no, but then, I'd probably force the character in question to use psychic reformation to re-take the feat. :P
Legdiwena 10-24-07, 02:34 PM	I extrapolated him into a spreadsheet to level 20, how can I put it up here for evaluation?
Lycanthromancer 10-25-07, 02:03 PM	Take screenshots using the Print Screen button, put it up on Photobucket.com, then toss the link on the forums?
Legdiwena 10-25-07, 03:26 PM	http://www.freedrive.com/public-upload/view/12253 Let me know what you think, I can also give the spreadsheet I worked everything up from if you need it. Tried Photobucket, but can't access screenshot file since I'm using a public computer.
mod5000 10-26-07, 03:39 AM	If you're looking for a one-class level dip for a psicrystal, look no further than the Erudite in Complete Psionic (one of the better parts of that book). At first level they not only get a bonus feat, but also Psicrystal Affinity for free.
Legdiwena 10-26-07, 03:17 PM	Looking at playing an Elan and Psion is their favored class, don't care for 18 levels of xp penalties.
CrimsonDeath 10-26-07, 03:59 PM	Erudite is described as a "variant psion", so you might be able to make that fly.