Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Secrets Untold 03-16-07, 09:17 PM	Wow... I just read through the soulknife section or the XPH, and realized how easily psychic strike can be abused with multiple throw... Consider the following tactic with a level 20 Soulknife, using no special equiptment, and not factoring in stats or any other bonuses: Shape mindblade: 2 short swords (+4) Psychic Strike: +5d6 damage Multiple throw: 6 throws. This deals 36d6+24 damage. That averages out to 150 damage every other round, with no limit to how many times this can be done. The attacks have an effective base attack bonus of +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9. Now add critical hits in, and gear, and stats.... If you choose knife to the soul, you can grab 6d6+24 damage plus 30 Int/Wis/Cha damage. That's a big coma...
Zodiaq7 03-16-07, 09:38 PM	Wouldn't this work like the Manyshot feat in that the psychic strike would ony work for one of the blades thrown?? It does say in the description that the damage from psychic strike is applied only once.
Secrets Untold 03-16-07, 10:37 PM	You're probably right, but Mutliple Throw says nothing about this. I suppose you'd have to apply psychic strike twice, once per hand. I see multiple throw as creating copies of the mind-blade, though, so that might be why I see it this way. And also, a lvl 20 soulknife can tack on up to a +4 equivilent bonus to his mindblades for free as well. I forgot that. So if we choose flaming, freezing, shocking, and caustic (?), we can tack on another 24d6 damage... Bringing our total to 50d6+24/2 rounds, or, at the least, 35d6+24/2 rounds. Wow... I have GOT to make an epic Soulknife/Rogue...I need to add sneack attack damage to that...
Bopple 03-16-07, 10:56 PM	There are several problems. 1. You have to make new mind blades everytime you throw them, because they are no longer in your hands. But Free Draw ability can be used only once per round. Thus, you can only throw 4 mind blades per round at max. 2. You need 2 move actions to imbue both of the mind blades. 3. Mind-affecting effects are not all that great at that lvl. Almost everything has immunity to mind-affecting effects. 4. Elemental damage of that amount is also negligible, because too many things have multiple energy resistance, at that level.
InkBlot 03-17-07, 02:02 AM	Psychic Strike uses eight-sided dice, not six-sided. But Free Draw ability can be used only once per round. Multiple Throw overcomes this limitation.
Bopple 03-17-07, 04:01 AM	Where does it say so?
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 04:07 AM	Where does it say so? Page 29 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The whole point of the multiple throw ability is to make several ranged attacks with your mind blade per turn.
Bopple 03-17-07, 06:53 AM	Multiple Throw just says you can throw your mind blades many times per round. It does not remove the limitation of 'drawing' your mind blades.
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 01:44 PM	If you said that you could only produce muliple mind blade to be thrown, then you would have a point. However, you said that you are limited by the number you can produce with your Free Draw ability. If you cannot produce more than 1 (or 2 with Shape Mindblade) per round, then how are you throw the number equal to the attacks that you can make per round?
FabulousRex 03-17-07, 03:40 PM	Multiple Throw (Ex) At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make. Seems pretty simple to me. This over-rides the usual 'one mindblade per round' thing from the previous levels. The big problem you run into is that PsyStrikes dissipate after use, even on melee attacks. So you'ld have to find a way to get 2 Move actions in a round to recharge your last 2 attacks, whether at range or in melee.
WinterPsionic 03-17-07, 04:05 PM	....that strategy is so broken it isn't funny... IF you could imbue each blade as an swift(I think that's the one that's isnt' limited to 1/rnd) action then sure it's doable but you HAVE to Imbue EACH blade with Psychic Strike. The best you could get is (2x)[1D6+5D8+4] for the first 2 with Pyshic Strike imbued ahead of time + (4x)[1D6+4] assuming all they were were +2. So your range is 40-140 with No crits, with each blade hitting and no additional modifiers.
Secrets Untold 03-17-07, 06:40 PM	Okay. These are all good points. Now, lets look at how I rationalize this: Round 1: -Manifest Mindblades (Move) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, Optional) Round 2: -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, optional) -Multiple Throw (Standard) I realized the flaw in my initial post. This leaves us with 6d6+10d8+24 damage (Averages to 90). This is a worst-case senario, because it assumes no bonuses from stats, gear, or the free +4 equivilent bonuses you can apply. Using 4 energy bonuses (frost, flaming, shock, and caustic) on each mindblade (which is free, and doesn't need time to apply), and assuming no elemental resistance/immunities, you end up with 30d6+10d8+24 damage (averages to 174 damage, maxes out at 284). That's a lot, and when you factor in gear... Hope this clarifies the process a bit. If anyone wants to optimize a character using this idea, please, go ahead. I'd love to see this taken to the extreme. EDIT: If all 6 critted, you'd end up with this: 36d6+20d8+48 damage, with an average of 264 damage. That's assuming psychic strike damage is doubled on a crit, which it seems to be. If it's not, you sitll get 36d6+10d8+48, averaging to 219.
WinterPsionic 03-17-07, 07:16 PM	Okay. These are all good points. Now, lets look at how I rationalize this: Round 1: -Manifest Mindblades (Move) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, Optional) Round 2: -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, optional) -Multiple Throw (Standard) I realized the flaw in my initial post. This leaves us with 6d6+10d8+24 damage (Averages to 90). This is a worst-case senario, because it assumes no bonuses from stats, gear, or the free +4 equivilent bonuses you can apply. Using 4 energy bonuses (frost, flaming, shock, and caustic) on each mindblade (which is free, and doesn't need time to apply), and assuming no elemental resistance/immunities, you end up with 30d6+10d8+24 damage (averages to 174 damage, maxes out at 284). That's a lot, and when you factor in gear... Hope this clarifies the process a bit. If anyone wants to optimize a character using this idea, please, go ahead. I'd love to see this taken to the extreme. Ok just so the breakdown is clear as day... 6D6 come from 6 Shortsword Mindblades 10D8 comes from 2 Psychic Strikes 24 is the +4 bonus on 6 Blades Now the next part for the next 24D6 (4D6 per blade, with 1D6 per energy) is assuming the list of available enhancements has been opened up to the character as not all DMs allow all enhancements. I should also point out it's been argued that since your splitting the blades you won't be getting 6 instances of +4/+4 weapons. I believe if you split the blades you got the total enhancement plus value between the blades, thus 1 blade could have 2 energy types (Fire and Elec) while the other had the other 2(Cold and Acid). Another ruling said that you'd loss a +1 so that means on a +3 total value. I'm not sure which is right but I'll check the FAQ in a bit to see if the issue was addressed.
Secrets Untold 03-17-07, 07:27 PM	If I only was using 1 blade, it would be a +5/+5 weapon, but when you switch to two, you get +4/+4 weapons. That's probably where you're confusion stems from.
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 07:28 PM	Using 4 energy bonuses (frost, flaming, shock, and caustic) on each mindblade As far as a know you cannot add those abilities to your mindblade. If you take levels in soulbow you can add them to your mindarrows, psychic strike doesn't increases with your soulbow levels.
Secrets Untold 03-17-07, 07:30 PM	Read "mindblade enhancement" on pages 28 & 29 of the XPH.
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 07:33 PM	Read "mindblade enhancement" on pages 28 & 29 of the XPH. That refers you to the table, that does not include those enchancements.
Secrets Untold 03-17-07, 07:36 PM	The bottom of that table also refers you to the DMG, which has all of those abilities.
WinterPsionic 03-17-07, 07:39 PM	I got where the +4 was coming from, but I'm talking about the available special abilities for the weapons, the rules clearly state that the bonus is 1 less for the two but from my reading I'm pretty sure that only applies to the +X Value, while the other bonus is split and reduced by one, meaning as I said you could have 1 +4 Frosty Shocking Shortsword Mindblade and 1 +4 Flaming Acid Shortsword Mindblade (as the enchantments have to be split between the 2, perhaps someone can correct me on this, haven't had a chance to check the FAQ yet) As for what Calron was saying that's what I was refering to when I said not all DM's allow it, by RAW none of the 4 we're speaking of are available. EDIT: The bottom of that table also refers you to the DMG, which has all of those abilities. That's was only meant for the description of the abilities not listed in that book, as only the new enhancements were listed.
Uchiha_Arthas 03-17-07, 07:46 PM	Okay. These are all good points. Now, lets look at how I rationalize this: Round 1: -Manifest Mindblades (Move) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, Optional) Round 2: -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, optional) -Multiple Throw (Standard) Just a slight Quibble with this, I've always assumed that the Free Draw ability gained at 5th level was equivelent to the quick draw feat in respect to mind blades. If you had both Quick Draw and TWF then you could draw two weapons as a free action http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a. That should in theory at least apply to mind blades as well. So the series of steps you take should look something like this: Round 1: -Manifest 2xMindblades[1-Handed] (Free) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -Charge 2nd Blade with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, Optional) Round 2: -Multiple Throw (Standard) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, optional) Round 3: -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -Multiple Throw (Standard) -5-foot step (Free, optional) Round 4: - Repeat Round 1 etc... I'm too lazy and inexperianced to do the calcs but I hope the above works... Edit: Ideally Both blades should have been charged before combat even starts and that could influence the damage per round but... Edit 2: WinterPsionic, I am slightly confused as to exactly what you mean about the enchancement bonus but then again I am confused about the books version as well...(So Glad I am using BlaineTog's version) ... The book's example only applies to +X value of the blade and not to the Enchantment value. However in my opinion the book slightly muddles the issue by calling the +X value an Enchancement bonus and then also referring to the Enchantment bonus as an Enchancement bonus. The book does this despite the fact that it goes out of the way to make them mechanically two seperate bonuses...go figure.
Secrets Untold 03-17-07, 08:04 PM	Yay! It's been simplified! Crap! -Flower's right. Well, you could grab damage adders from that list, or you could (as my DM and I have) houserule that you can grab things from the DMG. Shouldn't really make too much of a change (exept to this combo!). Anywho, this thread should silence people who say "soulknives are underpowered."
Jadeite 03-17-07, 08:13 PM	The problem is that you are expecting all attacks to hit. The Soulknive has only a medium bab which is further reduced by to weapon fighting. While he has an enhancement bonus to attack, he lacks further methods of buffing. The first two attacks have an acceptable chance of hitting, but the other ones are rather improbable to hit.
Bopple 03-17-07, 10:01 PM	If you cannot produce more than 1 (or 2 with Shape Mindblade) per round, then how are you throw the number equal to the attacks that you can make per round? Because you can have your mind blades ready before combat. Thus, on the first round of combat, you can throw 4 mind blades at max. You are saying Multiple Throw ability overrides Free Draw, just because it says you can throw multiple blades per round, no matter what. Then would you say Multiple Throw overrides Null Psionic Field without Will saves, just because you can throw multiple blades per round, no matter what? Multiple Throw mentions nothing about other restrictions. You cannot say that it automatically forgoes them.
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 10:45 PM	Because you can have your mind blades ready before combat. Thus, on the first round of combat, you can throw 4 mind blades at max. You are saying Multiple Throw ability overrides Free Draw, just because it says you can throw multiple blades per round, no matter what. Then would you say Multiple Throw overrides Null Psionic Field without Will saves, just because you can throw multiple blades per round, no matter what? Multiple Throw mentions nothing about other restrictions. You cannot say that it automatically forgoes them. It says "AT 17TH LEVEL AND HIGHER, A SOULKNIFE CAN THROW A NUMBER OF MIND BLADES PER ROUND EQUAL TO THE NUMBER OF MELEE ATTACKS HE COULD MAKE." So, if you have a all three two-weapon fighting feats you could make 6 melee attacks per round instead of just 4. The text after word contradicts this but it's RAW that you use the primary source rather than the secondary source. Also note the errata on the Expanded Psionics Handbook that can easily explain the text error. Some numbers were dropped accidentally from the Base Attack Bonus Column, beginning at 15th level. The table should read as follows: Level Base Attack Bonus 15th +11/+6/+1 16th +12/+7/+2 17th +12/+7/+2 18th +13/+8/+3 19th +14/+9/+4 20th +15/+10/+5
Bopple 03-17-07, 11:02 PM	So are you saying Soulknife can draw his mind blades as many times as he like, as free actions, though Free Draw says otherwise? Let's say he is in a Null Psionic Field. He failed his will save to keep his mind blade intact. He lost his mind blades. Then he can attempt to materialize mind blades as free action, until he finally succeeds in materializing? - Like 3, 5, or 10 times per round? can throw != must be able to throw
runestar 03-17-07, 11:27 PM	I think I get what Bopple is trying to say. Just because the ability says you can do something might not mean that you are necessarily able to manage it. Just that the option is there if you somehow manage to attain that threshold. For example, I may say that you can fly to school. But this does not mean you are automatically granted the gift of flight, just that you may fly to school if you could somehow attain a way of flying on your own. Otherwise, the provision is as good as no provision at all, since you still can't fly to school anyways. Likewise, while multiple throw does allow you to throw multiple mindblades in 1 round, it still requires you to come up with a way of managing to procure that many mindblades in that round. It still would not automatically remove the limit on quickdraw. As such, the burden still falls on you to find some way of generating that many mindblades in each round, while still being subjected to the limitations of the quickdraw ability. His interpretation does not appear to be wrong by the RAW, although it does seem to come across as somewhat restrictive and unfairly limiting. :P
WinterPsionic 03-17-07, 11:37 PM	So are you saying Soulknife can draw his mind blades as many times as he like, as free actions, though Free Draw says otherwise? Let's say he is in a Null Psionic Field. He failed his will save to keep his mind blade intact. He lost his mind blades. Then he can attempt to materialize mind blades as free action, until he finally succeeds in materializing? - Like 3, 5, or 10 times per round? can throw != must be able to throw The problem with this is a failed saving throw applies entirely for that round. As for the general ideal...I'm not sure where the argument is breaking down, are you trying to argue a Soulknife can never draw more then 2?
Bopple 03-17-07, 11:48 PM	Where does it say a failed saving throw applies for the entire round? Yes, you can attempt to draw mind blades only once per round. PS) BTW, runestar, perhaps I might be limiting it unfairly, if only soulknife as a whole were not designed as such a weakling. And no wonder why people consider it to be one of the most sucking classes. PS2) The whole point of my reply is this; soulknife is designed so poorly that it sucks from head to tail, no matter what. :P
WinterPsionic 03-18-07, 12:49 AM	Where does it say a failed saving throw applies for the entire round? I believe this was quite clearly stated in the 3.0 PHB, however I can't seem to find the snipit in the 3.5, leading me to believe it wasn't properly snipped. PS2) The whole point of my reply is this; soulknife is designed so poorly that it sucks from head to tail, no matter what. :P And this is supported by? The view of a typical player that see's any class he can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered? Sure it may not be as prime a target for optimization as some other classes but contrary to popular belief some classes are about flavor not power.
Bopple 03-18-07, 01:43 AM	Double post.
Bopple 03-18-07, 01:50 AM	I believe this was quite clearly stated in the 3.0 PHB, however I can't seem to find the snipit in the 3.5, leading me to believe it wasn't properly snipped. There is nothing like that in 3.0 Psionic Handbook. And this is supported by? The view of a typical player that see's any class he can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered? Supported by this; http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436 Sure it may not be as prime a target for optimization as some other classes but contrary to popular belief some classes are about flavor not power. Have I ever said you should not play a soulknife for flavor? Another to note; With 3.0 Free Draw you could draw as many mind blades as possible per round. But they inserted the limitation of one free action draw per round in 3.5 Free Draw.
WinterPsionic 03-18-07, 02:08 AM	There is nothing like that in 3.0 Psionic Handbook. ...by PHB I was reffering to the Players Handbook. Supported by this; http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436 ....and where are his numbers? I want to see an actual poll, not a "This class sux cause 3 people on the boards say so"
Bopple 03-18-07, 03:28 AM	...by PHB I was reffering to the Players Handbook. Do you know there is no soulknife in PHB? Don't make stuffs out of nothing at all. ....and where are his numbers? I want to see an actual poll, not a "This class sux cause 3 people on the boards say so" Don't try to catch at a straw. He marked an asterik when a class had few votes. Soulknife does not have an asterik. Moreover, there is a consensus mark on soulknife. Most of all, it's abstracted from Optimization Board. Do you consider them to be typical players that see any class they can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered? I am not sure why I have to show you the proof that soulknife is weak. There are coming bunch of soulknife fixes, repeatedly, by those dissatisfied with the official soulknife. Even you said people don't play just for power. I'd bet everything on that soulknife would be placed at one of the lowest ranks, if we made a poll about class power, again.
WinterPsionic 03-18-07, 11:34 AM	Do you know there is no soulknife in PHB? Don't make stuffs out of nothing at all. I'm not sure if I need to draw it out or you just can't make the connection, the 3.0 Players Handbook should have been the book stating that a failed save was failed for that whole round and that w/o other modifiers it couldn't be re-rolled. This ruling WAS NOT Soulknife specific. Don't try to catch at a straw. He marked an asterik when a class had few votes. Soulknife does not have an asterik. Moreover, there is a consensus mark on soulknife. Most of all, it's abstracted from Optimization Board. Do you consider them to be typical players that see any class they can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered? I am not sure why I have to show you the proof that soulknife is weak. There are coming bunch of soulknife fixes, repeatedly, by those dissatisfied with the official soulknife. Even you said people don't play just for power. I'd bet everything on that soulknife would be placed at one of the lowest ranks, if we made a poll about class power, again. Right....straws....I'm trying to catch a straw after you showed me a "case study" with no link to the study involved. As for how I feel about the players on these boards, yay I think some of them are "typical players that see any class they can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered?" because every week someone's complaining another class isn't as strong as some other class making it broken. And your right I did say people play for flavor, but this DOESN'T mean the "soulknife is designed so poorly that it sucks from head to tail, no matter what.", It means it takes some imagination and a little time to make it work. The idea that everyone expectz a Straight Classed ABC to compare to a Straight class XYZ is stupid, no 2 professions/individuals are that alike. A Rogue as written shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with a Fighter(and it should stay that way), just as a Swashbuckler probably can't quite survive a face-to-face with a Barbarian without a little room to play. And as for the "constant" fixes, ya there are a few more then for some of the other classes, which goes to show just how POPULAR the class is, and then as for the whole number of fixes making it weak...spend a few days watching the Class Boards and someone will come by asking "How do I fix the Paladin" or "Why is the Druid so broken" or my personal favorite "How can I make the Sucky Samurai suck less". So does this mean the Paladin, Druid and Samurai are just as bad as the Soulknife? Probably not. And again you mention POWER, and again I'm gonna say NOT every ABC should be able to go toe-to-toe with every XYZ, but your right, some of the Soulknife's class skills don't stack up compared to similar class styles class features. But how many classes can so easily slap an ability modifier into an attack sequence? and in terms of melee characters, how many can so openly attack every adjacent square for several consecutive rounds?(I'm well aware there are ToB maneuvers to do this with the exception of covering consecutive rounds), sure neither of these abilities make him devastating but they certainly make him useful.
Secrets Untold 03-18-07, 11:50 AM	Honestly, what makes you assume that a soulknife won't be able to hit all 6 times? At level 20, you can easily have insane dexterity. And, do you think that Collosal creatures have very high AC? A -4 penalty from size says a lot, and big things usually aren't nimble. Bopple, please, refrain from getting this thread closed. Winter's right this time. Just deal with it. Why do people think the soulknife's underpowered? Especially after reading this thread...
Red12 03-18-07, 12:07 PM	First off, the soul-knife is definitely underpowered. Adding flaming/shock/frosty/whatever is a houserule. Even if you do allow it, you're averaging less than 100 damage per round as a full-round action. Which is balanced with... well, not even a properly built fighter. Seriously, do you think there would be the number of soulknife fixes out there if it wasn't underpowered? Even minds eye gave them a power boost. Seriously, this is nothing new, just something thats always been around, seen, and deemed not up to snuff. That should in theory at least apply to mind blades as well. So the series of steps you take should look something like this: Round 1: -Manifest 2xMindblades[1-Handed] (Free) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -Charge 2nd Blade with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, Optional) Round 2: -Multiple Throw (Standard) -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -5-foot step (Free, optional) Round 3: -Charge with Psychic Strike (Move) -Multiple Throw (Standard) -5-foot step (Free, optional) Round 4: - Repeat Round 1 etc... Using multiple throw is a full round action. I don't know where you got that its a standard. You can throw your mindblade like any other thrown weapon. You dont get to make a full-attack routine as a standard action with normal thrown weapons. The mindblade is no different.
Secrets Untold 03-18-07, 12:20 PM	Red12, while, yes, it would make sense for multiple throw to be a fullround action, it's not. At least the XPH says it's not, but it might've been erratta'd.
Jadeite 03-18-07, 01:41 PM	Honestly, what makes you assume that a soulknife won't be able to hit all 6 times? At level 20, you can easily have insane dexterity. And, do you think that Collosal creatures have very high AC? A -4 penalty from size says a lot, and big things usually aren't nimble. ... Why do people think the soulknife's underpowered? Especially after reading this thread... According to the Dungeon Master's Guide pg 298, a Creatures AC should equal it's CR+13. So a Level 20 Soulknive would have to deal with AC 33 creatures. Also, Colossal creatures usually have a high Natural Armor Bonus to compensate for their Size Modifier. While you might be able to hit one by using Deep Impact, you won't be able to do so more than once or twice in one round. I like the Soulknive and don't believe it to be underpowered, but your tactics simple won't work.
Red12 03-18-07, 01:56 PM	Red12, while, yes, it would make sense for multiple throw to be a fullround action, it's not. At least the XPH says it's not, but it might've been erratta'd. Can you point to where that is? I don't see anywhere that says throwing a mindblade is a standard action that is not an attack. I see this: "A soul knife of 2nd level or higher can throw his mind blade as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30 feet. " and this: "At 17th level and higher, a soulknife can throw a number of mind blades per round equal to the number of melee attacks he could make. " Again, I just don't see where you are getting that multiple throw is a standard action. Throwing your mindblade uses the same mechanics at level 2 and level 17. You do it as if using a thrown weapon. To throw a weapon, you use a standard attack action. To throw multiple weapons (i.e. the number of attacks you have.) you use a full round attack action. Thats D&D 101. :P EDIT: Even IF you were right on the standard action bit, one decent ability at level 17 does not make up for the other crappy levels. Fighters are pretty good from levels 1-5. That doesn't mean they dont suck overall.
Bopple 03-18-07, 08:44 PM	I'm not sure if I need to draw it out or you just can't make the connection, the 3.0 Players Handbook should have been the book stating that a failed save was failed for that whole round and that w/o other modifiers it couldn't be re-rolled. This ruling WAS NOT Soulknife specific. Huh. A universal rule for a failed saving throw? You'd better show it to me. Even it's there that can not be a universal rule. Because you are drawing separate mind blades and attempting separate saves. Are you arguing that just because you have failed a save against a fireball, you have no choice but to face the full power of all the subsequent fireballs in the round? As for how I feel about the players on these boards, yay I think some of them are "typical players that see any class they can't make work, or min/max to the moon as broken/weak/underpowered?" because every week someone's complaining another class isn't as strong as some other class making it broken. What are you talking about? People on CO board don't complain about certain classes. They just optimize. There are even those who optimize for the sake of optimization. And complaining does not have anything to do with the ability to optimize, anyway. And your right I did say people play for flavor, but this DOESN'T mean the "soulknife is designed so poorly that it sucks from head to tail, no matter what.", It means it takes some imagination and a little time to make it work. The idea that everyone expectz a Straight Classed ABC to compare to a Straight class XYZ is stupid, no 2 professions/individuals are that alike. A Rogue as written shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with a Fighter(and it should stay that way), just as a Swashbuckler probably can't quite survive a face-to-face with a Barbarian without a little room to play. Have I ever mentioned about dueling? And as for the "constant" fixes, ya there are a few more then for some of the other classes, which goes to show just how POPULAR the class is, and then as for the whole number of fixes making it weak...spend a few days watching the Class Boards and someone will come by asking "How do I fix the Paladin" or "Why is the Druid so broken" or my personal favorite "How can I make the Sucky Samurai suck less". So does this mean the Paladin, Druid and Samurai are just as bad as the Soulknife? Probably not. 1. Soulknife is the most vigorously being 'fixed' class out there. Compare the counts. You will know. 2. There are not many paladin fixes, actually. But there are many fighter fixes. 3. Druid? What does it have anything to do with this? Druid is powerful. 4. Samurai? Yes, it's as bad as soulknife. The number of fixes may not be directly correlated to the power level. But there is some correlation, apparently. And again you mention POWER, and again I'm gonna say NOT every ABC should be able to go toe-to-toe with every XYZ, but your right, some of the Soulknife's class skills don't stack up compared to similar class styles class features. Again, I have never said anything about dueling. But how many classes can so easily slap an ability modifier into an attack sequence? I am not sure what you are talking about. Is this about Knife to the soul? Yeah, the only noteworthy ability. But the thing is, it has very narrow level window of effectiveness. After a couple of level you gained the ability, too many monsters are immune to mind-affecting effects and almost every class-based character has Mind-Blank on. and in terms of melee characters, how many can so openly attack every adjacent square for several consecutive rounds?(I'm well aware there are ToB maneuvers to do this with the exception of covering consecutive rounds), sure neither of these abilities make him devastating but they certainly make him useful. Bladewind? It's identical to Whirlwind. And whirlwind is one of the most useless feats out there. 150 damage every other round with HOUSERULE, at 20th lvl, to which most of enemies are immune? And that's on the assumption that every attack hits. About a week ago, WOTC published a Mind'e Eye article, which contained an alternative Soulknife. It has bonus feats instead of psychic strike progression. And you know what? People on this board exclaimed, "Finally, something useful, instead of crappy psychic strike!" That is the truth of soulknife.
runestar 03-19-07, 12:39 AM	Why the heck are you 2 even quibbling over this? This thread was about whether you could throw multiple mindblades, not about whether the soulknife is weak or not. Regardless of whether it is underpowered or no, it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since it should not affect how its special ability works. RAW determines that. And as far as how the multiple throw ability is interpreted, I am still on Bopple's side. I don't care how much you argue about how unfair or debilitating it is to the soulknife, that is my impression of how it operates according to a literal reading of the text.:) Are there any takers?
calronmoonflower 03-19-07, 02:59 AM	Are there any takers? You can take a free action in the middle of a full-attack. Because of that you could make 2 ranged mind blade attacks at level 8. 4 with 2 of the two hand fighting featsat 9th. To attemp to back up my statement here are two quotes from the Main 3.5 Faq Can a character with Quick Draw and a base attack bonus of +6 or better make a melee attack with one weapon and a ranged attack with another weapon in the same round? What if the melee weapon requires two hands to wield? Yes. There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or with the same kind of weapon. A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger (another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot the bow (using his base attack bonus –5). This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe. If you have more than one attack, can you attack one foe, take a 5-foot step, and make another attack against a different foe (assuming of course, that you didn’t otherwise move during your turn)? Yes, you can take a 5-foot step before, after, or during your full attack action (provided that you don’t take any other movement during the round).
runestar 03-19-07, 07:11 AM	Which does not seem to address the crux of this discussion...:P Bopple was referring to this text here Free Draw (Su): At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however. The other poster was trying to argue that multiple throw removes this inherent limit. I am trying to say it does not.:)
Uchiha_Arthas 03-19-07, 07:19 AM	Which does not seem to address the crux of this discussion...:P Bopple was referring to this text here The other poster was trying to argue that multiple throw removes this inherent limit. I am trying to say it does not.:) I could be wrong but I believe the bolded text your refering to only applies to will saves in a non-psionic area. So even if the Soul Knife has multiple attacks/throws, Free draw etc... inside a non-psionic area he can only make one will save per round to attempt to materialise his mind blade... If he fails he looses his mindblade(s) and has to wait till next round to attemt to summon them again.
Nekomancer 03-19-07, 01:52 PM	How is it that you get psychic strike in all your throws? It takes a move action to charge one mind blade and lost once it is been discharged. materializing a mind blade does not charge it automaticly. Assuming at level 20 and started with a non-combat situation, you need 1 free action,1 full action to shape it to 2 blades, 2 move action to charge both blades (you can charge one before shaping it but it only applies to one blade after shaping). After all that, the full attack throw you would get is 2 +4 mindblades with psychic strike at BAB +15, and 2 +5 mindblades at BAB +10/+5 without psychic strike. The knife to the soul ability requires to drop 1d8 from psychic strike to do the ability damage so un/fortunately, no uber damage follow by ability damage ps: this is a thread about the use of Psychic strike with multi-throw, not how uber or weak the class is, there is already a thread for it and the conclusion was that we got no where.
Secrets Untold 03-19-07, 07:27 PM	Catmage (Nekomancer), I realized my mistake in the third post of this thread. It's not like the thread is a hundred pages long, you could read some of it. Could people stop arguing about the soulknife being underpowered? It's so idiotic. I've seen kindergardeners hold a better argument!
WinterPsionic 03-19-07, 07:33 PM	I've seen kindergardeners hold a better argument! Hmmm that would make an interesting show, where by chance did you witness this?
Bopple 03-19-07, 08:13 PM	I could be wrong but I believe the bolded text your refering to only applies to will saves in a non-psionic area. So even if the Soul Knife has multiple attacks/throws, Free draw etc... inside a non-psionic area he can only make one will save per round to attempt to materialise his mind blade... If he fails he looses his mindblade(s) and has to wait till next round to attemt to summon them again. No, read the description again. PS) Secrets Untold, didn't you asked me to refrain from getting this thread closed? I am pretty sure it will get locked fast if you keep writing like that. :P