Post/Author/DateTime	Post
4-armed kobold 06-21-07, 04:39 AM	Is it viable to use a straight psychic warrior as a backup caster to a wizard? I have checked the Psychic Warrior Build Guide but so far found no (or missed?) builds that explore on one. Selecting the deep impact + leap attack + power attack feat tree to address its melee prowess, the remaining feats can be used to get Expanded Knowledge to get the support powers, e.g. dispel psionics, energy missile, psionic teleport and plane shift, etc. Mantled Warrior and Tap Mantle Feats can get the temporal acceleration pre-epic. So has anyone tried this before and has it worked out? :)
Tiarn 06-21-07, 04:56 AM	I haven't actually tried it but I can't imagine it would be exceptionally effective. The PsyWar doesn't get many power points comparatively, using feats such as that detract from what the PsyWar excels at (well, being a warrior with buffs to help), and ovall they'd be much less able to access most of those powers until rather high-level, much later than a pure manifester would (psions get access to planeshift at 9th level, a PsyWar taking Expanded Knowledge would have to wait until 17th as that's the next time they get a feat after accessing 6th level powers) It seems rather ineffectual to me, but if you do try it, let me know how it turns out. Sometimes things like this surprise me. :)
The_Shaman 06-21-07, 05:52 AM	As I see it, the problem is that you need a REALLY high wisdom score to compensate for the low number of PPs. While I think psionics has a better scaling system than magic in this respect, you would need to be have a very high score to be even a backup caster. It is possible, certainly, but imo rather hard ability-wise and feat-wise (expanded knowledge).
WyvernSlayer 06-21-07, 06:39 AM	Kalashtar or Athasian Human are your best bets, with Mantled warrior, and the highest wisdom possible. Zen Archery too for a starter ought to be good. 8P
Caterpillar 06-21-07, 09:24 AM	Why do you want to make a psychic warrior as a backup caster and not a wilder or psion.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 10:52 AM	The Lurk has a far better power list for this idea. Lots of debuffs and some nice clairsentient powers. Ardent was more or less designed for this role. OK, basically there's a continuum of classes that goes from "only good at combat" to "only good at casting." Combat Casting --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> Fighter Ranger Psywar Mantled-Psywar Lurk Ardent Wilder Psion So you just need to choose how much casting and how much combat you want, and find that spot on the continuum. edit: By the by, the Mantled Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant of the Psychic Warrior class comes from The Mind's Eye. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) You'll need Complete Psionic to use it. There are other variants in that article which don't require ComPsi, but which aren't as relevant to this thread's topic.
hovnarr 06-21-07, 10:57 AM	Short answer - yes, it's possible. Here's how! Back-up caster is excellent for a PsyWar. "Back-up" means precisely that, as in "not primary caster". Still a caster though, ML = CL and all that. The build I'm proposing is fairly focused: 1 Point Blank shot 1 Psionic Shot 1 Psionic Body 2 Psicrystal Affinity: Single-minded 3 Psicrystal Containment 5 Psionic meditation 6 EK: Entangling Ectoplasm 8 Greater psionic shot (the rest is up to you) Since you have little PP, you primary strategy is to plink away with hugely PP efficient 1PP Entangling Ectoplasms with an added +4d6 damage from greater psionic shot. Much like high tech scorching ray blasting. If an enemy gets near you, hey - you're a psychic warrior, no sweat. Choose your powers carefully, considering your support role. Where does the party need support the most? Take such powers, and round the list out with some added utility. You get: *Good survivability and melee capabilities *Highly efficient psionic blasting at range *A few utility effects that can round you out as a support caster or "special ops" guy
4-armed kobold 06-21-07, 11:39 AM	Caterpillar, It's more of a player choice than anything else. Group game is more on an all warrior campaign with a PC mage coming in once in a while. So the psywar will be filling in for if the mage is not around. Hovnarr, Thanks for that suggestion. A ranged psywar maybe more viable than a melee one. Support will be mainly on crowd control and medium to long range damage, magical transport, some dispelling and utility. Inkblot, Ardent would have been fine, except for the low hp, restricted power selection and few feats. Now if only the psywar had the ardent's power points or at least 75% of it, then it would really rock.
The_Shaman 06-21-07, 12:12 PM	Hovnarr, I think in your build Zen archery is practically a must, unless the rolls have been favoring you like crazy. It helps with the reserve, as well.
hovnarr 06-21-07, 12:32 PM	Hovnarr, I think in your build Zen archery is practically a must, unless the rolls have been favoring you like crazy. It helps with the reserve, as well. Sure, that'd work if you got a really high score. I usually do point buy, and I wouldnt go above 16 Wis even for this build with 32 point buy. Considering Dex 12, you'd only get a +2 benefit, but it might be worth the feat. Thanks for that suggestion. A ranged psywar maybe more viable than a melee one. Support will be mainly on crowd control and medium to long range damage, magical transport, some dispelling and utility. Man, that's perfect. I can really recommend going into Elocater later on to get the Transporter ability and some other utility. Long range damage is actually easiest to accomplish with a composite bow, and it doesn't hurt that you have psionic shot then. For close range, use ectoplasm instead. If you want crowd control in one feat, check out Standstill. Nice with expansion and 10' threat range weapons in particular.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 12:46 PM	Thanks for that suggestion. A ranged psywar maybe more viable than a melee one. Support will be mainly on crowd control and medium to long range damage, magical transport, some dispelling and utility. Inkblot, Ardent would have been fine, except for the low hp, restricted power selection and few feats. Now if only the psywar had the ardent's power points or at least 75% of it, then it would really rock. If you're going ranged, then HP don't matter as much. Also, Ardents have the power points to spare for vigor and other defenses. An Ardent's number of powers-known is identical to the Psychic Warriors, but they get higher level powers, and a more varied and customizable power list. Getting higher level powers sooner also means that you can get powers with Expanded Knowledge sooner. And the odd way Ardents figure the level of powers they can learn means that Practiced Manifester will let you continue getting the same level of powers as a full-classed Ardent even if you take lots of prestige classes. I'll admit that they don't have nearly as many feats. Just keep in mind that an Ardent doesn't need feats to bolster his manifesting, and that he has powers which can replace some feats. I'm not saying Ardent is a must, just that if you should consider it if you find yourself spending all your Psywar feats on increasing ray damage or on Expanded Knowledge.
The_Shaman 06-21-07, 04:22 PM	Sure, that'd work if you got a really high score. I usually do point buy, and I wouldnt go above 16 Wis even for this build with 32 point buy. Considering Dex 12, you'd only get a +2 benefit, but it might be worth the feat. Initially maybe, but I think later you will probably focus in wis. With you wearing heavy armor, you don't need dex, and str isn't that important with psionic shot and you focusing on ranged attacks. As inkblot mentioned, you are not likely to be a frontliner, either, so you do not need to prioritize constitution as much as a melee Psywarrior needs to. OTOH, as a manifester (if support,) you want a high manifesting attribute for PPs.
InkBlot 06-22-07, 02:16 AM	Zen Archery gives you the benefit of not having the spend money on both Gloves Of Dexterity and a Periapt Of Wisdom. It cuts your stat-boosting-item expenditure in half. It also lets you funnel all of your HD-based stat boosts into Wis, getting greater use out of them than if you split them between two stats. Not to mention, even a +2 bonus (and it will grow to more than +2 as you level and boost Wis) is twice as good as Weapon Focus.
Antendren 06-22-07, 03:58 AM	Man, I really like that concept. Maybe taking it into Master Thrower for Trip Shot and Two with One Blow.
zuul88 06-22-07, 04:37 AM	Straight PsyWar can make an Excellent Secondary Casters. But as for filling in as a caster when he is missing not nearly as good. Of course it can be done. Any square peg can be shaved and molded to fit through a round hole but wont fit perfectly. It seems like you want this PC to do 2 different jobs depending on if the mage shows up or not. Back-up Caster/Secondary Caster. You need to pick which of these you want to play. PsyWar is an awesome Secondary caster but a sub-par Backup caster. Someone mentioned the Ardent which is a much better Backup caster then a PsyWar. Make the mage show up if you have to kidnap him(said in a fictional manner) so you can play your PsyWar then way he was intended. Respect Nathan
4-armed kobold 06-22-07, 11:30 AM	zuul88, When the mage is around, the psywar is the psywar that he was intended to be. At this point, he may or may not opt to be a secondary caster. Only when the mage is not around and the rest of the group has to depend on him [psywar] for some resources does he act as a backup caster, e.g. teleportation, dispel, softening foes at a distance with energy missiles, etc. As such, his power selection [and feats] should also reflect this secondary function. You might ask, why not just use a psion instead and do away with all this hassle? It's for role playing and balance I guess. And wanting to [prove] and [test] that a psywar, properly built can pull it off. And from the trend in the boards, the general concensus is build him to be a ranged psywar to maximize the PP allotment from a high Wis score.
hovnarr 06-23-07, 06:29 AM	I think that sums the thread up quite nicely, 4-armed kobold. Here's an updated build on your ranged back-up caster PsyWar - note: this build is so feat intensive that it requires you to research Entangling Ectoplasm rather than spend an EK feat on it. If your DM doesn't like this, use a Dorje instead until you can fit it in. 1 PsyWar1: Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Dodge 2 PsyWar2: Zen Archery 3 PsyWar3: Mobility 4 PsyWar4: 5 PsyWar5: Psionic Meditation 6 PsyWar6: Spring Attack 7 Elocater1: 8 Elocater2: 9 Elocater3: Greater Psionic Shot 10 Elocater4: 11 Elocater5: 12 Elocater6: TRANSPORTER (plane shift and teleport as 3rd level powers) 13 Elocater7: 14 PsyWar7: 15 PsyWar8: 16 PsyWar9: 17 PsyWar10: 18 PsyWar11: 19 PsyWar12: 20 PsyWar13: Feats above level 9 is pretty much up to you. You have to pay 3 feats to get into Elc, but save 2 on getting the transportation powers for free. Also a very good utility class with lots of nifty abilities and skills. Drop out at 7 though, to avoid loosing more ML. Other good psion/wilder powers to round out your secondary caster role include time hop, metamorphosis and astral construct - three powerful multipurpose powers if you can fit them.
zuul88 06-23-07, 07:20 AM	I will answer this in 2 parts. zuul88, When the mage is around, the psywar is the psywar that he was intended to be. At this point, he may or may not opt to be a secondary caster. No he will not be the "psywar" he is supposed to be. You intend him to be a Back-Up Caster not a Secondary Caster. These are two entirely different types. He is supposed to be a Secondary Caster. A PsyWar will do what you want fairly well, but it such an extensive build thats about all you can do. You will be marginalized Anytime you play with the mage. His job is easy for him to do and he will excel in it exponentitionly better then you. Get Crystal Shard, too. You might ask, why not just use a psion instead and do away with all this hassle? It's for role playing and balance I guess. And wanting to [prove] and [test] that a psywar, properly built can pull it off. A psion is Never a "Back-Up Caster." He is a Full Blown Manifester. Decrebrate the mage PC if he doesnt show up. Who cares?? He is not needed. Respect Nathan