Substitute energy for Force [Archive] - Wizards Community

Substitute energy for Force [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RazielK
05-08-07, 09:14 PM Does anyone have an idea of how one would do something like this? Would it be a feat? Could it be done as normal energy substitution for the "Energy" attacks?
Tempest Stormwind
05-08-07, 09:24 PM Does anyone have an idea of how one would do something like this? Would it be a feat? Could it be done as normal energy substitution for the "Energy" attacks?

There is no way of doing this currently. It would be too strong to simply do this as a feat -- Force damage is almost never resisted and can hit ethereal and incorporeal creatures without difficulty, which no energy source can. Look at Concussion Blast.
Lycanthromancer
05-08-07, 09:27 PM I'd say you'd have to do this as a different feat for each energy power; a Force Ray wouldn't be nearly as powerful, for instance, as a Force Wave.

Also, there are benefits to using energy powers; force powers can't deal extra damage to energy-vulnerable critters.
Knight0
05-09-07, 04:42 PM Transdimensional Power allows powers to attack incorporeal creatures and creatures on the ethereal and shadow planes. Expend focus no pp cost. change it to force I think a cost fo 2 or 4 pp and expend focus would be ok.
InkBlot
05-09-07, 05:20 PM So it could be like...

FORCE POWER [METAPSIONIC]
You can imbue your energy powers with pure force.
Prerequiste: Ability to manifest energy missle
Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. When you manifest a psychokinesis power which deals cold, fire, electricity, or sonic damage, you can alter the power to instead deal force damage. A power which deals force damage deals -1 points of damage per die, and can strike incorporeal and ethereal creatures normaly.

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. A power altered with this feat gains the [force] descriptor.

or...

FORCE POWER [METAPSIONIC]
When you manifest a certain power, you can imbue it with pure force.
Benefit: Choose one psychokinesis power you know, which deals cold, fire, electricity, or sonic damage.

To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. When you manifest the chosen power, you can alter it to deal force damage instead of cold, fire, electricity, or sonic. When manifested this way, the power deals -1 points of damage per die, and can strike incorporeal and ethereal creatures normaly.

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. A power altered with this feat gains the [force] descriptor.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you may choose another power to apply this feat too.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
05-10-07, 09:21 AM Changing the type to force would be equivalent to applying transdimensional spell and energy substitution sonic (also very rare resist). This can be done with two feats for arcane magic: transdimensional spell and elven spell lore.

Since psionics can already produce sonic effects and force effects, I'd say it's only worth a +1 spell slot adjustment, or the equivalent in psionics +2 pp.

Don't over-react and suggest a +4 pp adjust... it ain't that good.
InkBlot
05-10-07, 12:40 PM Is Concussion Blast the only direct-damage psychokinesis [force] power?

Tleilaxu_Ghola, you bring up a good point. I was balancing those feats partialy on the assumption that all [force] blasting powers had worse starting damage and worse augments than the generic energy powers. However, it seems that only Concussion Blast is actualy like that. This is likely because it automaticaly strikes multiple targets and doesn't give a saving throw. Since generic energy powers with Force Power applied to them would still give saves and/or require an attack roll, maybe the feat shouldn't be so costly.
saidin0111
05-15-07, 10:32 PM CPsi has a power that is a force version of Energy Ball at a reduced damage to pp cost (starts at 6d6 damage) and higher power level. It is a force mantle only power, which means expending a feat to acquire it for most manifesters.
Second
05-15-07, 11:54 PM Dragon Magic has a second level power called "Amethyst Burst", which is essentially a close range force fireball, dealing similar damage to a Concussion Blast, and has the added benefit of having no power resistance. A good alternative to Concussion Blast.
MnemonicSV
05-16-07, 01:57 PM I am very likely in error here, but the wording of the post may also imply that RazielK wants to substitute energy as a replacement for force.

RazielK, in the unlikely event that you do desire to substitute energy instead of force in a power, I strongly recommend against it:
1) Most force powers do less dice of damage than standard energy powers.
2) Energy resistances of creatures and objects may lessen/negate the desired effect (force effects are usually not subject to reduction).

There may be very rare circumstances where it would be beneficial to using energy instead of force (you want to exploit an energy weakness, or cause some other side effect), but on the whole, it wouldn't be worth a feat make such a downgrade.

(Again, this reply is based on a likely erroneous interpretation of the post's question, so please disregard this reply if it does not apply.)
Kiklio
05-16-07, 09:51 PM That's how I also interpreted the title, MnemonicSV.

The way I implement this type of substitution is as a class feature of a homebrew Archpsychic class. The ability allows free implementation of the substitution to energy powers, with the caveats of -1 damage per die and the allowance of a Fortitude save, even when the power doesn't allow a save. Very choice, and one of the more expensive options (an Archpsychic sacrifices power points like an Archmage sacrifices spell slots).

Just if you're interested. I believe a feat would be too desirable, even if it requires Energy Missile. Psychic Substitution from Untapped Potential presents a fine balance between non-typed damage and the ability to resist it.
Karkaras
05-18-07, 07:51 PM Actually I expected a Force based variant kineticist for the Expanded Classes in Mind's eye. Flavourly, I think it fits more a Kineticist Force than fire, cold or sound...

What do you think of this?
In Planar Handbook there is a Planar Sorcerer Substitution Level 5.
It esentially allows you to change half of the energy based damage for Force damage, in exchange of a 2nd level spell known.

Now...
At fifth level, a kineticist can choose with Expanded Knowledge any 2nd level power. It indeed has Bonus Feat.

What about this:

Force Apprentice

Beyond Fire, Cold, Electricity and Sound lies great power. The most pure form of energy: Force. And you are taking your first steps to master it.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level.
Prerequisite: You must know two force-based powers.
Benefit: At 5th level a kineticist can choose to replace half the damage dealt by a energy based power he manifest by force damage. This effect can be applied to any Psychokinesis power that deals fire, cold, electricity or sonic damage. The maximum power level to which a Force Apprentice Kineticist can apply this effect is one lower than the highest level of Psion power he can Manifest.
For example, a 20th level Kineticist can apply this effect to powers of up 8th level.
Ra-Tiel
05-19-07, 08:34 AM Force Apprentice

Beyond Fire, Cold, Electricity and Sound lies great power. The most pure form of energy: Force. And you are taking your first steps to master it.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level.
Prerequisite: You must know two force-based powers.
Benefit: At 5th level a kineticist can choose to replace half the damage dealt by a energy based power he manifest by force damage. This effect can be applied to any Psychokinesis power that deals fire, cold, electricity or sonic damage. The maximum power level to which a Force Apprentice Kineticist can apply this effect is one lower than the highest level of Psion power he can Manifest.
Doesn't look too bad, imho.

Alternatively, you could offer a 5th choice for the damage type: "Force: reduce the die type by one step; Fort save half", as it hardly makes sense that the bonus damage (+1 per die) from fire/cold should carry over to the force damage.

If that was still too strong, add the requirement of focus expenditure and it should be fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 05-08-07, 09:14 PM	Does anyone have an idea of how one would do something like this? Would it be a feat? Could it be done as normal energy substitution for the "Energy" attacks?
Tempest Stormwind 05-08-07, 09:24 PM	Does anyone have an idea of how one would do something like this? Would it be a feat? Could it be done as normal energy substitution for the "Energy" attacks? There is no way of doing this currently. It would be too strong to simply do this as a feat -- Force damage is almost never resisted and can hit ethereal and incorporeal creatures without difficulty, which no energy source can. Look at Concussion Blast.
Lycanthromancer 05-08-07, 09:27 PM	I'd say you'd have to do this as a different feat for each energy power; a Force Ray wouldn't be nearly as powerful, for instance, as a Force Wave. Also, there are benefits to using energy powers; force powers can't deal extra damage to energy-vulnerable critters.
Knight0 05-09-07, 04:42 PM	Transdimensional Power allows powers to attack incorporeal creatures and creatures on the ethereal and shadow planes. Expend focus no pp cost. change it to force I think a cost fo 2 or 4 pp and expend focus would be ok.
InkBlot 05-09-07, 05:20 PM	So it could be like... FORCE POWER [METAPSIONIC] You can imbue your energy powers with pure force. Prerequiste: Ability to manifest energy missle Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. When you manifest a psychokinesis power which deals cold, fire, electricity, or sonic damage, you can alter the power to instead deal force damage. A power which deals force damage deals -1 points of damage per die, and can strike incorporeal and ethereal creatures normaly. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. A power altered with this feat gains the [force] descriptor. or... FORCE POWER [METAPSIONIC] When you manifest a certain power, you can imbue it with pure force. Benefit: Choose one psychokinesis power you know, which deals cold, fire, electricity, or sonic damage. To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. When you manifest the chosen power, you can alter it to deal force damage instead of cold, fire, electricity, or sonic. When manifested this way, the power deals -1 points of damage per die, and can strike incorporeal and ethereal creatures normaly. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. A power altered with this feat gains the [force] descriptor. Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you may choose another power to apply this feat too.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 05-10-07, 09:21 AM	Changing the type to force would be equivalent to applying transdimensional spell and energy substitution sonic (also very rare resist). This can be done with two feats for arcane magic: transdimensional spell and elven spell lore. Since psionics can already produce sonic effects and force effects, I'd say it's only worth a +1 spell slot adjustment, or the equivalent in psionics +2 pp. Don't over-react and suggest a +4 pp adjust... it ain't that good.
InkBlot 05-10-07, 12:40 PM	Is Concussion Blast the only direct-damage psychokinesis [force] power? Tleilaxu_Ghola, you bring up a good point. I was balancing those feats partialy on the assumption that all [force] blasting powers had worse starting damage and worse augments than the generic energy powers. However, it seems that only Concussion Blast is actualy like that. This is likely because it automaticaly strikes multiple targets and doesn't give a saving throw. Since generic energy powers with Force Power applied to them would still give saves and/or require an attack roll, maybe the feat shouldn't be so costly.
saidin0111 05-15-07, 10:32 PM	CPsi has a power that is a force version of Energy Ball at a reduced damage to pp cost (starts at 6d6 damage) and higher power level. It is a force mantle only power, which means expending a feat to acquire it for most manifesters.
Second 05-15-07, 11:54 PM	Dragon Magic has a second level power called "Amethyst Burst", which is essentially a close range force fireball, dealing similar damage to a Concussion Blast, and has the added benefit of having no power resistance. A good alternative to Concussion Blast.
MnemonicSV 05-16-07, 01:57 PM	I am very likely in error here, but the wording of the post may also imply that RazielK wants to substitute energy as a replacement for force. RazielK, in the unlikely event that you do desire to substitute energy instead of force in a power, I strongly recommend against it: 1) Most force powers do less dice of damage than standard energy powers. 2) Energy resistances of creatures and objects may lessen/negate the desired effect (force effects are usually not subject to reduction). There may be very rare circumstances where it would be beneficial to using energy instead of force (you want to exploit an energy weakness, or cause some other side effect), but on the whole, it wouldn't be worth a feat make such a downgrade. (Again, this reply is based on a likely erroneous interpretation of the post's question, so please disregard this reply if it does not apply.)
Kiklio 05-16-07, 09:51 PM	That's how I also interpreted the title, MnemonicSV. The way I implement this type of substitution is as a class feature of a homebrew Archpsychic class. The ability allows free implementation of the substitution to energy powers, with the caveats of -1 damage per die and the allowance of a Fortitude save, even when the power doesn't allow a save. Very choice, and one of the more expensive options (an Archpsychic sacrifices power points like an Archmage sacrifices spell slots). Just if you're interested. I believe a feat would be too desirable, even if it requires Energy Missile. Psychic Substitution from Untapped Potential presents a fine balance between non-typed damage and the ability to resist it.
Karkaras 05-18-07, 07:51 PM	Actually I expected a Force based variant kineticist for the Expanded Classes in Mind's eye. Flavourly, I think it fits more a Kineticist Force than fire, cold or sound... What do you think of this? In Planar Handbook there is a Planar Sorcerer Substitution Level 5. It esentially allows you to change half of the energy based damage for Force damage, in exchange of a 2nd level spell known. Now... At fifth level, a kineticist can choose with Expanded Knowledge any 2nd level power. It indeed has Bonus Feat. What about this: Force Apprentice Beyond Fire, Cold, Electricity and Sound lies great power. The most pure form of energy: Force. And you are taking your first steps to master it. Level: 5th. Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level. Prerequisite: You must know two force-based powers. Benefit: At 5th level a kineticist can choose to replace half the damage dealt by a energy based power he manifest by force damage. This effect can be applied to any Psychokinesis power that deals fire, cold, electricity or sonic damage. The maximum power level to which a Force Apprentice Kineticist can apply this effect is one lower than the highest level of Psion power he can Manifest. For example, a 20th level Kineticist can apply this effect to powers of up 8th level.
Ra-Tiel 05-19-07, 08:34 AM	Force Apprentice Beyond Fire, Cold, Electricity and Sound lies great power. The most pure form of energy: Force. And you are taking your first steps to master it. Level: 5th. Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level. Prerequisite: You must know two force-based powers. Benefit: At 5th level a kineticist can choose to replace half the damage dealt by a energy based power he manifest by force damage. This effect can be applied to any Psychokinesis power that deals fire, cold, electricity or sonic damage. The maximum power level to which a Force Apprentice Kineticist can apply this effect is one lower than the highest level of Psion power he can Manifest. Doesn't look too bad, imho. Alternatively, you could offer a 5th choice for the damage type: "Force: reduce the die type by one step; Fort save half", as it hardly makes sense that the bonus damage (+1 per die) from fire/cold should carry over to the force damage. If that was still too strong, add the requirement of focus expenditure and it should be fine.