Teaching oneself new powers with psychic chirurgery: is there a legal method? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Teaching oneself new powers with psychic chirurgery: is there a legal method? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
09-30-07, 12:25 AM I'm just wondering how a telepath can use psychic chirurgery and psychic reformation to learn new powers without the aid of a partner or permanent usage of an expanded knowledge feat. What methods are legal?

Here are some ideas I've come up with, and arguments as to why they might or might not work.

As an example, we'll use a telepath learning metamorphosis.

Thieving Mindlink/Psicrystal Channel power method:

1. Take expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) through psychic reformation or the like.
2. Channel thieving mindlink through your psicrystal to get it to steal metamorphosis from you.
3. Psychicly reform your expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) away.
4. Channel psychic chirurgery through your psicrystal to implant knowledge of metamorphosis into yourself.

Potential illegality: thieving mindlink does not actually say that you cannot steal powers of a higher level than you can manifest: only that the manifester is aware of the powers the target knows up to the level the manifester can manifest normally. If the target (i.e., the telepath) tells the manifester (i.e., the psicrystal) in advance what to steal, even through the psicrystal, not being a real manifester, cannot get a "reading" on what the telepath knows, could it steal the power? The rules are ambiguous.

Fission method:

1. Take expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) and expanded knowledge (fission).
2. Manifest fission.
3. Have your clone manifest psychic chirurgery on you as you manifest psychic reformation on yourself to get rid of metamorphosis

Potential illegality: Fission lasts 1 round/level. Psychic chirurgery requires 10 minutes, which is equal to 100 rounds. Even with extend power and overchannel, this requires being level 49 to pull off (overchannel increases ML by 3, fission reduces it by 2 (for the clone), and extend power doubles it).
AntiDjinn
09-30-07, 01:24 AM When you use Channel Power your crystal is treated as the originator (origin point as far as range and area are concerned) not as the manifester. If you channel Psychic Chiurgery the rock becomes the origin, but you are still the manifester (that's why you still suffer the AoO).

Just as well too, if the effect actually caused the crystal to become the manifester then you run into problems with the wording of Psychic Chiurgery: "you can use this power to transfer knowledge of a power that you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest" If the crystal becomes the manifester then, as always, "you" means the manifester. In this case the manifester would actually know no powers to transfer. Using the crystal as a focus for Channel Power does not cause it know any powers or have a manifester level. Channeling the additional power also does not work; Psychic Chiurgery does not say you can transfer knowledge of any power that has been channeled to you by another. You can't simply pretend that Channel Power causes a psicrystal to be treated as a psion of your level with all your powers known, because the ability says absolutely nothing of the sort.
Slagger the Chuul
09-30-07, 02:47 AM Potential illegality: Fission lasts 1 round/level. Psychic chirurgery requires 10 minutes, which is equal to 100 rounds. Even with extend power and overchannel, this requires being level 49 to pull off (overchannel increases ML by 3, fission reduces it by 2 (for the clone), and extend power doubles it).

There's a little gem of a power that might be able to help with that, and I can be almost certain it's blue. :)
CrimsonDeath
09-30-07, 03:10 AM Metamind could pull it off by level 25 or 26, with Temporal Reiteration. (Not sure exactly when he could do it, since I'm not that familiar with Fission.)

Still not worth ten levels of Metamind, though.
hovnarr
09-30-07, 12:37 PM Is there any reason why you can't simply Chirurgery a power you know through Expanded Knowledge? Then you can reform the feat away afterwards.
zzo38
09-30-07, 02:22 PM Is there any reason why you can't simply Chirurgery a power you know through Expanded Knowledge? Then you can reform the feat away afterwards.

I remember I once thought of the same thing and posted a message about it, I cannot find the message right now though, but if you search you might fin dit.
JulesCARV
10-01-07, 08:04 AM There's a little gem of a power that might be able to help with that, and I can be almost certain it's blue. :)

What power is that? I didn't get the reference.
Slagger the Chuul
10-01-07, 11:18 AM What power is that? I didn't get the reference.

It's soul crystal, from Magic of Incarnum; apart from the obvious benefit of allowing others to use your powers, manifesting the power from a crystal is a standard action.

The blue part is because almost everything in Magic of Incarnum is blue... or cerulean, azure, indigo, cobalt, sapphire, or some other word approximately describing the colour blue.
JulesCARV
10-01-07, 12:54 PM Ah. Okay, I don't have Magic of Incarnum. Thanks
Slagger the Chuul
10-01-07, 05:04 PM On the downside, Magic of Incarnum contains a grand total of three psionic powers, one of which is weakened without incarnum rules, and another of which is useless without incarnum rules.

On the upside, the third one is soul crystal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 09-30-07, 12:25 AM	I'm just wondering how a telepath can use psychic chirurgery and psychic reformation to learn new powers without the aid of a partner or permanent usage of an expanded knowledge feat. What methods are legal? Here are some ideas I've come up with, and arguments as to why they might or might not work. As an example, we'll use a telepath learning metamorphosis. Thieving Mindlink/Psicrystal Channel power method: 1. Take expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) through psychic reformation or the like. 2. Channel thieving mindlink through your psicrystal to get it to steal metamorphosis from you. 3. Psychicly reform your expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) away. 4. Channel psychic chirurgery through your psicrystal to implant knowledge of metamorphosis into yourself. Potential illegality: thieving mindlink does not actually say that you cannot steal powers of a higher level than you can manifest: only that the manifester is aware of the powers the target knows up to the level the manifester can manifest normally. If the target (i.e., the telepath) tells the manifester (i.e., the psicrystal) in advance what to steal, even through the psicrystal, not being a real manifester, cannot get a "reading" on what the telepath knows, could it steal the power? The rules are ambiguous. Fission method: 1. Take expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) and expanded knowledge (fission). 2. Manifest fission. 3. Have your clone manifest psychic chirurgery on you as you manifest psychic reformation on yourself to get rid of metamorphosis Potential illegality: Fission lasts 1 round/level. Psychic chirurgery requires 10 minutes, which is equal to 100 rounds. Even with extend power and overchannel, this requires being level 49 to pull off (overchannel increases ML by 3, fission reduces it by 2 (for the clone), and extend power doubles it).
AntiDjinn 09-30-07, 01:24 AM	When you use Channel Power your crystal is treated as the originator (origin point as far as range and area are concerned) not as the manifester. If you channel Psychic Chiurgery the rock becomes the origin, but you are still the manifester (that's why you still suffer the AoO). Just as well too, if the effect actually caused the crystal to become the manifester then you run into problems with the wording of Psychic Chiurgery: "you can use this power to transfer knowledge of a power that you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest" If the crystal becomes the manifester then, as always, "you" means the manifester. In this case the manifester would actually know no powers to transfer. Using the crystal as a focus for Channel Power does not cause it know any powers or have a manifester level. Channeling the additional power also does not work; Psychic Chiurgery does not say you can transfer knowledge of any power that has been channeled to you by another. You can't simply pretend that Channel Power causes a psicrystal to be treated as a psion of your level with all your powers known, because the ability says absolutely nothing of the sort.
Slagger the Chuul 09-30-07, 02:47 AM	Potential illegality: Fission lasts 1 round/level. Psychic chirurgery requires 10 minutes, which is equal to 100 rounds. Even with extend power and overchannel, this requires being level 49 to pull off (overchannel increases ML by 3, fission reduces it by 2 (for the clone), and extend power doubles it). There's a little gem of a power that might be able to help with that, and I can be almost certain it's blue. :)
CrimsonDeath 09-30-07, 03:10 AM	Metamind could pull it off by level 25 or 26, with Temporal Reiteration. (Not sure exactly when he could do it, since I'm not that familiar with Fission.) Still not worth ten levels of Metamind, though.
hovnarr 09-30-07, 12:37 PM	Is there any reason why you can't simply Chirurgery a power you know through Expanded Knowledge? Then you can reform the feat away afterwards.
zzo38 09-30-07, 02:22 PM	Is there any reason why you can't simply Chirurgery a power you know through Expanded Knowledge? Then you can reform the feat away afterwards. I remember I once thought of the same thing and posted a message about it, I cannot find the message right now though, but if you search you might fin dit.
JulesCARV 10-01-07, 08:04 AM	There's a little gem of a power that might be able to help with that, and I can be almost certain it's blue. :) What power is that? I didn't get the reference.
Slagger the Chuul 10-01-07, 11:18 AM	What power is that? I didn't get the reference. It's soul crystal, from Magic of Incarnum; apart from the obvious benefit of allowing others to use your powers, manifesting the power from a crystal is a standard action. The blue part is because almost everything in Magic of Incarnum is blue... or cerulean, azure, indigo, cobalt, sapphire, or some other word approximately describing the colour blue.
JulesCARV 10-01-07, 12:54 PM	Ah. Okay, I don't have Magic of Incarnum. Thanks
Slagger the Chuul 10-01-07, 05:04 PM	On the downside, Magic of Incarnum contains a grand total of three psionic powers, one of which is weakened without incarnum rules, and another of which is useless without incarnum rules. On the upside, the third one is soul crystal.