Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amoris Dendidorm 05-10-07, 02:35 PM	Okay , has anyone have any experience with this power and some usefull tips about its uses. I'm currently playing a kineticist and I chose this power, but don't know if it's all that good? Is it true it can only be used on objects or could I use this power to move anything that's within its weight limit (creatures/people,etc.). The way I see it, if it can only be used for objects and functions only round/level isn't it worse than its magic equivelant "tenser's floating disc", which is a 1st level spell and TF is a 3dr lv power? Perhaps I don't understand the complete usefullness of this power or its potential, but now I'm thinking I made a huge mishap by chosing this power. So please enlighten me by sharing your insight, or past/current experiance with this questionable power. p.s.: please no comments on why I chosen it in the first place! It looked handy at the time and wanted something constructive instead of destructive. Thanks for the help!
InkBlot 05-10-07, 02:59 PM	I too was suprised that TK force can't target creatures, but it is not weaker than Tenser's floating disk. Tenser's floating disk can't move more than 3 feet off the ground; TK force can lift an object over a hundred feet into the air. Tenser's floating disk is a solid 3-foot-wide disk; TK force can lift any object regardless of size (but not weight), and can manipulate it with as much dexterity as a human hand. You can get around the targeting limitation of TK force by targeting a creature's clothes. The creature gets a will save (this is noted in the power description), but if she fails then you can hoist her by her armor or whatnot. Also note that the arcane spell telekinesis has the same limitations and workaround. Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
Amoris Dendidorm 05-11-07, 03:14 AM	So, is it still worth having or would you recommend another power? My other rowers are; Body Adjustment, Forced Share Pain and Touchsight. I know I should have taken Dispel Psionics, but I'm the only Psion in the party and chances are we'll never meet a psionic enemy (DM doesn't have the XPH). Looking at this list would the TF-power still be a good fourth?
Fireclave 05-11-07, 04:01 AM	Your DM may not have the XPH, put he does have the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org). And you may not run into many psions, but you will most likely run into spellcasters. Dispell Psionics works on magic just as effectively as Dispell Magic works on psionics. If you're the party's primary caster, you might want to reconsider taking Dispell Psionics in the future. As for Telekinetic Force, it is an decent utility power. The ability to pick up heavy (or light) objects at great distances and manipulate them with dexterity is bound to come in handy sooner or later, but its use is pretty situational and will probably not have much use for you in combat. Your best bet to guarantee this power's use is to create your own situations with it (TF + box with Necklace of Fireball + unsuspecting guards + Energy Ball as the trigger == 4th of July + Win). It's also handy as an improvised fly spell. This is a power you will have to think creatively about to really benefit from it. Also, let's not forget the fact that making stuff float with your mind is just really, really cool. And that's the best reason to take it IMO :D
Amoris Dendidorm 05-11-07, 04:39 AM	Our party consist of a; Battlemage/cleric of Mystra Druid of chauntea Ranger/Bard Paladin/cleric of Tyr and me the Kineticist so enough people can cast Dispel Magic. The DM uses Magic and Psionics are different but interact with -4/+4 rule. So unless he throws psionic situations in our faces (which is highly unlikely), I wouldn't have much use of Dispel Psionics.
SlanderPanic 05-11-07, 10:26 AM	I played an unbodied character in a Forgotten Realms campaign for a bit. His favorite tactic was to disguise himself as something innocuous, use telekinetic force to grab an opponent by his armor or clothing, then take them 100 feet straight up, drop them, and repeat. Alternately, he'd use it to carry them over to hazards or into the waiting arms of the party's tanky-types, to give other party members a lift, disarm opponents, and the like. Honestly, the possibilities are pretty much endless. You made a really great choice when you picked telekinetic force!
InkBlot 05-11-07, 12:44 PM	So, is it still worth having or would you recommend another power? My other powers are; Body Adjustment, Forced Share Pain and Touchsight. If you can have four 3rd level powers, then I assume you're 6th level. What are your 1st and 2nd level powers*? Is your psion an egoist, kineticist, nomad, seer, shaper, or telepath? Without knowing these things, I can't make a good recommendation. *Unlike with spells, psionic powers remain useful at higher levels thanks to augmentation.
Amoris Dendidorm 05-11-07, 01:12 PM	Actually I'm a 7th level Kineticist Earth Genasi. Here's my complete power list: 1st – bolt, control object, crystal shard, inertial armor, mind thrust 2nd – control air, energy missile, forced sense link, sustenance 3rd – body adjustment, forced share pain, telekinetic force, touchsight 4th – psionic dimension door, energy ball
MnemonicSV 05-11-07, 01:55 PM	A favourite tactic of mine with TK Force is to snag missiles midair (such as an arrow), by readying an action to do so. Giants get confused when the boulder they just threw at you stops midair and goes flying back at them.
InkBlot 05-11-07, 02:14 PM	That's a very good well-rounded list. I think TK force is a fine choice in your case. You have plenty of direct damage and self buff powers, and a couple very good detection powers. TK force is a nice utility addition. It's not TK force that stands out as impractical, but rather control air. It might not be such a bad power if it didn't take you out of the battle as you concentrate on it, while only giving your enemies a small chance of being slowed down each round. Although control air says "Saving Throw: None," this only means that the air doesn't get a saving throw. DMG p95 has the DC of the Fort save your enemies will have to make each round to resist the winds. Considering that the druid already has gust of wind and wind wall, and will be getting the vastly superior control winds in a couple levels, I think you should drop control air if you can. Body equilibrium, concealing amorpha, detect hostile intent, energy adaptation specified, id insinuation, inflict pain, and swarm of crystals are all good 2nd level replacement powers Are you using the retraining rules, or psychic reformation? If you're planning on using psychic reformation, remember that you can reform it away too when you're done using it to reform your other abilities.
Lycanthromancer 05-11-07, 02:20 PM	I always keep psychic reformation around, at least on an item, so I can rearrange my abilities at any time.
Amoris Dendidorm 05-11-07, 02:43 PM	It's not TK force that stands out as impractical, but rather control air. It might not be such a bad power if it didn't take you out of the battle as you concentrate on it, while only giving your enemies a small chance of being slowed down each round. Although control air says "Saving Throw: None," this only means that the air doesn't get a saving throw. DMG p95 has the DC of the Fort save your enemies will have to make each round to resist the winds. We play in Calimport (forgotten Realms) and my character is a mercenary who wanders the Calim Desert. I thought that character-wise it would be a must have power for all those sandstorms (or to create them;) ) and it has come in handy at times.
ArcTan 05-11-07, 05:10 PM	Just as a note: The "TK his clothes, not him" trick is pretty clearly an exploit, and I wouldn't allow it as a DM, and I'd expect many other DMs not to allow it either. At best I'd say you could only target one article of clothing or armor at once, so you might be able to hoist his shirt up but he can wriggle out of it fairly easily.
InkBlot 05-11-07, 06:48 PM	It isn't an exploit when the power comes right out and tells you that you can do it. Telekinetic force states that it can effect attended objects. It's pretty obvious what would happen if somebody doesn't let go of an object that starts floating into the air - they're going to go with it. Are you afraid a player is going to obviate all your combat encounters by using TK force to lift a creature hundreds of feet into the air and then drop it? First of all, it's Will negates. Second, TK force can only move an object 20 feet each round. That works out to 2d6 damage a round - only slightly better than the 1st level power matter agitation. After a minute it might total up to 20d6 damage, if the target doesn't manage to wiggle out of the breastplate or break your concentration with a ranged weapon. You also better hope none of the creature's allies manage to get to you while you're concentrating. At 5th level you could do 20d6+20 damage in four rounds, to multiple creatures, with energy bolt or energy burst. Energy bolt/burst also has the benefit of working against creatures who weigh more than 250 pounds (counting any gear they have), and in areas that lack high ceilings or open sky. But that does cost more power points than TK force, so let's look at energy wall. Like TK force, energy wall costs 5 power points, and has a duration based on concentration. Unlike TK force, an energy wall will stay up for for 1 round/level after you stop concentrating, deals more damage, isn't capped at 20d6 total damage, doesn't require you to be outdoors to get a lot of damage, and can damage creatures who weigh more than 250 lbs. The only time I can see a psion using TK force offensively, instead of any of the actual direct damage powers he could have, is if he was facing a single relatively weak foe and realy wanted to show off. Anyway, when I mentioned lifting people by their gear earlier it was in the context of helping party members get to hard-to-reach places.
Enchanter_Tom 05-11-07, 08:08 PM	Just as a note: The "TK his clothes, not him" trick is pretty clearly an exploit, and I wouldn't allow it as a DM, and I'd expect many other DMs not to allow it either. At best I'd say you could only target one article of clothing or armor at once, so you might be able to hoist his shirt up but he can wriggle out of it fairly easily. I disagree. It seems fair to me.
turalisj 05-11-07, 09:03 PM	Dm: The half-orc bandit rises to his full hieght, batle armor glinting in the sunlight, his two..... Psion: I use TK on his underwear. Dm: the half-orc is lifted several feet into the air by the back of his rump. He finaly falls as the heavy leather snaps. TK- The ultimate way to give someone a wedgie. I like this set up. You have your partes fighter carry around several knives, spears, and other light weapons. When the need comes, you bring out as many as you want and fling them at your foe. OR, you use a halfing or gnome armed with a pair of b.swords and launch it at a flying foe. However, I personaly love a telekinetic master setup. Telekinetic buffer, sphere, force, and manuever. You can use TS as a personal shield, walking through a battlefield full of foes. Using TM, you launch enemies backwards with a thought. With TF, you can use thier corpses as artillery. And finaly, using a powered up TB, you can have a second barrier incase TS falls.
CrimsonDeath 05-11-07, 09:13 PM	I like this set up. You have your partes fighter carry around several knives, spears, and other light weapons. When the need comes, you bring out as many as you want and fling them at your foe. OR, you use a halfing or gnome armed with a pair of b.swords and launch it at a flying foe. That would be Telekinetic Thrust. (Not a horrible strategy, though.)
Vharuck 05-11-07, 09:28 PM	Lift the enemy high up, and drop him. But that's boring. Add a twist: Carry a spiked tower shield on your back. You'll never use it as a shield, confusing your enemies. However, they'll see what you use it for when they're hovering above the layed out jagged sheet.
turalisj 05-11-07, 09:33 PM	Then you go splat as a 10lb shield and a several hundred pound foe fall on you. And I knew I was missing something. TT, that was it.... But yeah, you are basicly a one psion army. I can imagine it now, a single elf stopping the advance of a hoarde of orcs..... :D
Psikerlord 05-11-07, 09:38 PM	The arcane version of telekinesis can affect creatures directly, and is basically a combination of TF, TT and TM, but 5th level. I plan to have my psion research a 5th level psionic version of telekinesis, just like the arcane one. That way he can do all sorts of things (without any DM arguments) with a single power slot, and free up a 3rd level power slot. Albiet it will cost him more pp's... but that's the trade off for more versatility. I agree that overall this type of utility power is an inefficient combat tool, particularly without solicit psicrystal... it's the cool factor and interesting misc options it provides that make it useful: fly on yourself, floating weapon to assist intimidation checks, distraction effects, floating jail keys over to yourself to escape a cell, untieing ropes you've been bound with, snatching foe's weapon from his sheath/hand, that sort of thing.
Vharuck 05-11-07, 10:06 PM	Then you go splat as a 10lb shield and a several hundred pound foe fall on you. And I knew I was missing something. TT, that was it.... But yeah, you are basicly a one psion army. I can imagine it now, a single elf stopping the advance of a hoarde of orcs..... :D Well, I thought it would be assumed that the shield would no longer be on my back when the enemy fell on it. I would lay it flat on the ground.
Nathreet 05-11-07, 10:55 PM	I like this set up. You have your partes fighter carry around several knives, spears, and other light weapons. When the need comes, you bring out as many as you want and fling them at your foe. OR, you use a halfing or gnome armed with a pair of b.swords and launch it at a flying foe. That would be Telekinetic Thrust. (Not a horrible strategy, though.) No, no... a large greatsword only weighs 16lbs. 15 x 16lbs. = 240lbs., which is still within the 250lb. weight limit. TK thurst 15 large greatswords for 3d6 each. You can carry them around a variety of ways, though certain methods might take a round to get all the greatswords ready. Shrink item is one method.
turalisj 05-11-07, 10:59 PM	BBEG Lair Idea: Have him with hundreds of weapons lining his floors and greased statues of himself that can easily be flung. Here's a question though: Can you move 250lbs of something such as water and earth?
InkBlot 05-12-07, 12:26 AM	You can manipulate the target with as if with a single hand. Since you can easily scoop up a big lump of dirt with one hand, you can use TK force on a big lump of dirt. If you try to scoop up some water with your hand, most of the water will quickly spill out of your hand. Same with TK force. I'd say you have 1/2 the water left after 2 rounds, 1/3rd of the water left after 3 rounds, 1/4th left after 4 rounds, and so on in that fashion until after 8 rounds you only have 1/8th of the water you tried to pick up. The arcane version of telekinesis can affect creatures directly ... Arcane telekinesis has the exact same restrictions as psionic telekinesis. Read the spell carefully; the first line of the sustained force option states that it can only be used on objects (PHB p292).
turalisj 05-12-07, 12:49 AM	Ok then. You can lift up to 250lbs of earth and make a giant mudball out of it and fling it at a foe.:D
InkBlot 05-12-07, 12:56 PM	Just remember that you can't fling things with TK force. If you want to fling things around, you need TK thrust. Also, mud is very heavy. A 250 lbs mudball wouldn't even be 3 feet wide (according to this website (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm) and my poor neglected math skills).
Amoris Dendidorm 05-12-07, 02:26 PM	Well, I'm convinced and glad that I've chosen TK. I've read some very good ideas on possible uses and believe I can make great use of this in the future. Oh, and about the mudball, I think that if you augment the power you get an extra 25lb. per power point! In my case I could make one of 300lb. Now if I survive the next part of my adventure I'll have to start looking for my next two powers:) Thanks for the input people!
Psikerlord 05-13-07, 04:48 PM	I tip my hat to Inkblot, upon closer reading of arcane telekinesis, it does indeed appear to be objects only - dang!
turalisj 05-13-07, 05:34 PM	Well, I'm convinced and glad that I've chosen TK. I've read some very good ideas on possible uses and believe I can make great use of this in the future. Oh, and about the mudball, I think that if you augment the power you get an extra 25lb. per power point! In my case I could make one of 300lb. Now if I survive the next part of my adventure I'll have to start looking for my next two powers:) Thanks for the input people! Look towards TeleSphere down the way. Not even a dragon's breath attack will effect you, so you could walk right into a GW Red and start sending cold missiles at him.
cymbolik 05-14-07, 11:02 AM	The arcane version of telekinesis can affect creatures directly, and is basically a combination of TF, TT and TM, but 5th level. I plan to have my psion research a 5th level psionic version of telekinesis, just like the arcane one. That way he can do all sorts of things (without any DM arguments) with a single power slot, and free up a 3rd level power slot. Albiet it will cost him more pp's... but that's the trade off for more versatility. I agree that overall this type of utility power is an inefficient combat tool, particularly without solicit psicrystal... it's the cool factor and interesting misc options it provides that make it useful: fly on yourself, floating weapon to assist intimidation checks, distraction effects, floating jail keys over to yourself to escape a cell, untieing ropes you've been bound with, snatching foe's weapon from his sheath/hand, that sort of thing. I had this kind of conversation with someone not too long ago. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be you, Psikerlord. In any event, I ended up fusing the telekinesis set into one power for the purposes of that thread. I've copied it below for your reference. Telekinesis, Psionic Psychokinesis [Force] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier. Alternatively you can use this power to affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes—or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object or creature per manifester level (maximum fifteen separate targets), as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level. You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder). Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power. If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points). Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways: 1. For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target increases by 25 pounds. 2. If you spend 2 additional power points, you can affect a single foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. For every 2 additional power points you spend on this augmentation, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts. The pros and cons are fairly apparent, in that you can now no longer just use TKM on any creature. The target actually has to fall within your 250lbs range, unless you're paying for the augment to increase your weight cap. Additionally this power is always going to remain 3rd level, so, while it's available sooner to psions than wizards, it is also easier to a) resist and b) is easily overcome with a minor globe of invulnerability.
turalisj 05-14-07, 04:28 PM	I don't like it.... I like a power that you can fire and forget, like energy missile or energy wall.