Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sunrider 11-23-07, 07:05 AM	According to the XPH description of Telekinetic Manoeuvre, Grapple checks use the manifester's Intelligence modifier, with no consideration as to whether the manifester is a Psion or Wilder (even though it's a Psi/Wild power). The corresponding spell, Telekinesis, uses Int for Int-based casters and Cha for Cha-based casters (and, I presume, would use Wis for Wis-based casters who gain Telekinesis, e.g. as a domain ability). Where does leave Wilders? Careless error or deliberate omission? Is the wilder deliberately gimped in this area? Any errata to suggest otherwise? Otherwise, a Grapple check of 20(base ML) + 6(surge ML) + 1(ioun stone ML) + 10(augment to 27pp) + 4 (Grip of Iron) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 12 (34 Cha) = 57 doesn't sound half-bad... Also, how does a character's size come into this? Is this a case of size-matters-not (the logical thing, since there's no physical contact) or is a Small or Tiny manifester at a significant disadvantage over a Large opponent when it comes to mind-wrestling? Could Yoda out-wrestle Darth Vader, or is his size too much of a problem :P
Fatalis_902 11-23-07, 08:29 AM	Check the errata or SRD, which usually has the errata in it. As for whether or not size comes into play, does the power's desciption say it does? I don't have the book infront of me right now, and I'm too lazy to go check, but if the book doesn't say that size counts, then size doesn't count.
InkBlot 11-23-07, 12:49 PM	The errata files did nothing to TK maneuver. Wilders have to use their Int bonus in place of Str, just like a Psion, Ardent, or Psychic Warrior would. However, using your prime manifesting stat (Cha for Wilders) would be a fine houserule. TK maneuvers says the trip, grapple, et cetera attempts are made as normal. So you use your normal size. You use all your normal modifiers, except for Str and BAB. Flavor-wise, the psion must brace the psychic force against his actual physical body; his mind may be a lever of sufficient length, (http://www.threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2007-11-06) but his body is the fulcrum. You could houserule that the force of TK maneuver is always considered medium (no size bonus), but consider how that would boost smaller characters and nerf larger characters.
AntiDjinn 11-24-07, 01:01 AM	Simply throwing out the size mods would definitely add a Yoda vibe ("judge me by my size?"). It just might not be appropriate for game balance since Yoda's lecture to Luke in Empire seemed to imply that size of the target also matters not. As far as stat mod, making it Cha would be a table rule. Powers are not adjusted to a character's primary stat unless they say so. For example, Feat Leech uses your Wis mod to set the number of feats you can steal, even though the power is on-list for the psion and wilder as well as the psychic warrior. Feat Leech does, however, give a minimum of 1 feat even if your Wis mod is 0 or lower. Control Body uses your Int mod both for hit and damage rolls that you force the subject to make. No provisions for substituting a different stat. It seems that Int is simply the stat chosen for targeting and doing damage with telekinetic effects. In any case, when a wilder takes Telekinetic Maneuver, the majority of his bonuses will come from Wild Surging the power to a higher point cap.
Sunrider 11-24-07, 02:08 AM	Simply throwing out the size mods would definitely add a Yoda vibe ("judge me by my size?"). It just might not be appropriate for game balance since Yoda's lecture to Luke in Empire seemed to imply that size of the target also matters not. As far as stat mod, making it Cha would be a table rule. Powers are not adjusted to a character's primary stat unless they say so. For example, Feat Leech uses your Wis mod to set the number of feats you can steal, even though the power is on-list for the psion and wilder as well as the psychic warrior. Feat Leech does, however, give a minimum of 1 feat even if your Wis mod is 0 or lower. Control Body uses your Int mod both for hit and damage rolls that you force the subject to make. No provisions for substituting a different stat. It seems that Int is simply the stat chosen for targeting and doing damage with telekinetic effects. In any case, when a wilder takes Telekinetic Maneuver, the majority of his bonuses will come from Wild Surging the power to a higher point cap. True - what really makes me think it's an accidental omission, though, is the fact that the equivalent spell, Telekinesis, uses the primary casting attribute rather than simply Int. Wizards use Int, while sorcerers can use Cha. Psions use Int, but, as written, unlike every other telekinetic-capable class, Wilders are forced to use their non-primary attribute. Same thing, I'd imagine, with other Psi/Wild powers whose power is affected by Intelligence - almost as if the Wilder was added as an afterthought and the powers, originally written for the Psion, not updated to reflect this. Note that there are no powers reliant on Charisma.
TheKeyofE 11-24-07, 08:28 AM	almost as if the Wilder was added as an afterthought and the powers, originally written for the Psion, not updated to reflect this. Note that there are no powers reliant on Charisma. It may have been in the update from 3.0 to 3.5, they just didn't pay close attention to those powers to account for the new Wilder class.
CrimsonDeath 11-24-07, 11:43 AM	It may have been in the update from 3.0 to 3.5, they just didn't pay close attention to those powers to account for the new Wilder class. Yeah, they already had to change it so it didn't run off Constitution...
sijigs 11-26-07, 07:31 PM	I think a suitable houserule for all the Telekinetic powers should be based on manifester level.. then augmentation. So the Yoda versus some large creature tussle would make 'mind over matter' saying more sense. :D IMHO the TK powers in XPH need re-writing.
Sunrider 11-27-07, 04:48 AM	You mean like this? N.B. I slightly modified Telekinetic Thrust to better visualise the 'bombarding target with nearby objects' concept and to get rid of the 'bombarding target with golfbag containing 15 Greatswords' concept. Telekinetic Thrust Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 3 Display: None Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target or Targets: One or more objects or creatures; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You can affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes—or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object per manifester level, as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level in any direction. The total weight of hurled objects may not exceed 250lb. Alternatively, you may hurl a single creature of Medium or smaller size. A hurled creature or object takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet travelled. Do not add any additional falling damage for creatures thrown upwards; this is considered to be part of the damage inflicted when the creature is hurled. Alternatively, you may hurl nearby objects or rubble at one or more enemies to inflict injury. To do so, you must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per targeted creature or object) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, using your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus and applying your primary manifesting modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Do not apply your size modifier to these attack rolls. When used in this manner, the power inflicts 5d10 bludgeoning damage, to be divided in a manner of your choosing among any number of chosen targets, none of which may be more than 15ft from any other target (divide the dice before you roll for damage, then roll separately for each target, rather than dividing the total damage after you have made the rolls). Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate being directly hurled, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power. There is no saving throw to avoid damage from hurled objects; however, the manifester must succeed at a ranged attack (not touch attack) in order to inflict injury in this manner. Augment When you use this power to hurl an object, for every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target or targets increases by 25 pounds. When you use this power to hurl a creature, for every 3 additional power points you spend, the maximum size of the creature you can affect increases by one category. Alternatively, for every four additional power points you spend, you may hurl one additional creature, which may not be more than 30 feet away from any other targeted creature. In addition, for every 2 power points you spend in any of these three manners, the power's save DC increases by 1. When you use this power to hurl objects or rubble at creatures or objects, for every additional power point you spend, the total damage inflicted increases by 1d10, to be divided among your chosen targets in a manner of your choosing. In addition, for every 4 power points spent in this manner, you gain a +1 bonus on your attack rolls to hit your targets with the rubble. Telekinetic Force Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 3 Display: None Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target: One object at a time Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power's duration, as long as you don't stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier. Augment You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways. 1. For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target increases by 25 pounds. 2. If you spend 2 additional power points, you may use the power to telekinetically wield a single Medium-sized or smaller melee weapon in combat, using your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (gaining iterative attacks as appropriate) and your primary manifesting attribute instead of your Strength to determine attack and damage bonuses. Do not apply your Size modifier to the calculation. You do not gain one-and-a-half times your manifesting attribute for wielding a two-handed weapon in this manner. Any physical combat feats you may have may be used while wielding a weapon telekinetically. You may use the weapon to perform Trip and Disarm attempts if the weapon allows it. You may not use the weapon to Grapple or Bull Rush, but may resist attempts by opponents to do so as normal. For the purposes of attacks made against the weapon, any weapon wielded in this manner has an Armour Class equal to 10 + weapon's size category + weapon's Enhancement bonus + your primary casting attribute's modifier; as the weapon is not on your physical body and still considered unattended, a Sunder attempt is not required to damage it. Apply hardness and hit points as normal for the weapon. 3. If you spend 2 additional power points (on top of the 2 additional points to wield a weapon) you may telekinetically wield a weapon one size category larger. For each additional two point spent in this manner, the maximum allowed weapon size increases by one category, to a maximum of 8 power points to wield a Colossal weapon. Note that you are still restricted by the power's normal weight limit of 250 pounds. 4. If you spend 6 additional power points (on top of the 2 additional points to wield a weapon), you may telekinetically wield a second weapon of the same size category or smaller than the maximum allowable by your other augments. This weapon may be used to attack the same target as the first weapon or a different target. For every additional 6 power points you spend in this manner, you may wield an additional weapon. You are still restricted by the power's normal weight limit. Telekinetic Manouevre Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 4 Display: None Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target: One creature Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 7 You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your primary manifesting modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). Do not apply size modifiers to either your own or your target's rolls. You may not benefit from the Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip or Improved Bull Rush feats; however, you benefit as normal from the Improved Telekinetic combat feat. No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts. Also, an additional feat for telekinetic combat more in flavour with the concept than Improved Bull Rush, etc.: Improved Telekinetic Combat Prerequisites: Ability to perform Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush or Grapple attacks using a supernatural, psi-like ability, spell-like ability, psionic power or spell. Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to all Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush or Grapple attacks performed using a telekinetic ability. Special: Improved Telekinetic Combat applies only to attacks performed without a physical intermediary between yourself and the target. For example, Telekinetic Manouevre would benefit, as you are directly manipulating your opponent with the power, whereas Telekinetic Force or the Master of the Unseen Hand's Telekinetic Wielder ability would not benefit, as you are manipulating the weapon to trip or disarm an opponent, rather than manipulating the opponent directly (the latter two, however, would benefit from Improved Trip, whereas the former would not).
sijigs 11-27-07, 04:28 PM	Woah. Nice.. yeah something like this. Thanks.. I will forward to our DM for discussion.
Sunrider 11-27-07, 08:09 PM	Yeah, that's actually the version I'm currently using with my group. Partly because it fits better with the whole 'mind over matter' concept than allowing a large Psion with a lower Intelligence to manifest these powers more effectively than a small, more-intelligent Psion, partly because, at present, there is little in the powers for Wilders and partly because carrying a golfbag of greatswords around to throw at enemies is, quite simply, ridiculous, although powerful under standard rules. Also, it seemed rather ridiculous to be able to telekinetically Bull Rush better simply because you'd taken Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush to do it better with your body... I actually spent a long time debating the damage dealt by (modified) Telekinetic Thrust and the ability to full-attack with telekinetically-wielded weapons using Telekinetic Force. Compared with other powers, a straight 1d6 per power point, with no save, but a ranged attack roll and DR, divided among one or more targets, seemed far too weak (compare Crystal Shard or Energy Missile), but 2d6 per pp would be slightly too powerful when used against a single target. So, 1d10 seemed like a reasonable compromise (although I'm still debating whether 2d6 really is too powerful... it's not as if direct-damage spells or powers are too powerful as it is, anyway, so a more-powerful version would hardly be unbalancing given the existence of spells like Timestop or Imprisonment...). For weapons wielded using Telekinetic Force, I decided that, yes, full-attacks with multiple weapons were powerful, but a manifester would be unlikely to have the same range of combat feats as a fighter to make best use of the weapons, while the weapons, since they are considered 'unattended', would be easily attacked (Sunder not being necessary) and destroyed by a competent melee opponent, although they may be more of a problem for primary casters/manifesters. Maybe a defensive telekinetic augment would be a good idea?
sijigs 11-27-07, 09:23 PM	Alternatively, you may hurl a single creature of Medium or smaller size. A hurled creature or object takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet travelled. Do not add any additional falling damage for creatures thrown upwards; this is considered to be part of the damage inflicted when the creature is hurled. This part is particularly good although you may need to re-word slightly to "10 feet travelled no matter which direction" so you may not need the additional text. This was one of my pet peeves with the original version. If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points). Just made NO SENSE.. seeing as you are hurling someone 10 ft per level. So I'm always opting to hurl people upward.. or off a cliff. :rolleyes:
Pitiless_Interfector 11-27-07, 09:42 PM	You mean like this? N.B. I slightly modified Telekinetic Thrust to better visualize the 'bombarding target with nearby objects' concept and to get rid of the 'bombarding target with golf bag containing 15 Greatswords' concept. Telekinetic Thrust Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 3 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target or Targets: One or more objects or creatures; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You can affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes—or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object per manifester level, as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level in any direction. The total weight of hurled objects may not exceed 250lb. Alternatively, you may hurl a single creature of Medium or smaller size. A hurled creature or object takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet traveled. Do not add any additional falling damage for creatures thrown upwards; this is considered to be part of the damage inflicted when the creature is hurled. Alternatively, you may hurl nearby objects or rubble at one or more enemies to inflict injury. To do so, you must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per targeted creature or object) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, using your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus and applying your primary manifesting modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Do not apply your size modifier to these attack rolls. When used in this manner, the power inflicts 5d10 bludgeoning damage, to be divided in a manner of your choosing among any number of chosen targets, none of which may be more than 15ft from any other target (divide the dice before you roll for damage, then roll separately for each target, rather than dividing the total damage after you have made the rolls). Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate being directly hurled, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power. There is no saving throw to avoid damage from hurled objects; however, the manifester must succeed at a ranged attack (not touch attack) in order to inflict injury in this manner. Augment When you use this power to hurl an object, for every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target or targets increases by 25 pounds. When you use this power to hurl a creature, for every 3 additional power points you spend, the maximum size of the creature you can affect increases by one category. Alternatively, for every four additional power points you spend, you may hurl one additional creature, which may not be more than 30 feet away from any other targeted creature. In addition, for every 2 power points you spend in any of these three manners, the power's save DC increases by 1. When you use this power to hurl objects or rubble at creatures or objects, every additional power point you spend increases the total damage inflicted by 1d10, to be divided among your chosen targets in a manner of your choosing. In addition, for every 4 power points spent in this manner, you gain a +1 bonus on your attack rolls to hit your targets with the rubble. Telekinetic Force Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 3 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target: One object at a time Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power's duration, as long as you don't stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier. Augment You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways. 1. For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target increases by 25 pounds. 2. If you spend 2 additional power points, you may use the power to telekinetically wield a single Medium-sized or smaller melee weapon in combat, using your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (gaining iterative attacks as appropriate) and your primary manifesting attribute instead of your Strength to determine attack and damage bonuses. Do not apply your Size modifier to the calculation. You do not gain one-and-a-half times your manifesting attribute for wielding a two-handed weapon in this manner. Any physical combat feats you may have may be used while wielding a weapon telekinetically. You may use the weapon to perform Trip and Disarm attempts if the weapon allows it. You may not use the weapon to Grapple or Bull Rush, but may resist attempts by opponents to do so as normal. For the purposes of attacks made against the weapon, any weapon wielded in this manner has an Armor Class equal to 10 + weapon's size category + weapon's Enhancement bonus + your primary casting attribute 's modifier; as the weapon is not on your physical body and still considered unattended, a Sunder attempt is not required to damage it. Apply hardness and hit points as normal for the weapon. 3. If you spend 2 additional power points (on top of the 2 additional points to wield a weapon) you may telekinetically wield a weapon one size category larger. For each additional two point spent in this manner, the maximum allowed weapon size increases by one category, to a maximum of 8 power points to wield a Colossal weapon. Note that you are still restricted by the power's normal weight limit of 250 pounds. 4. If you spend 6 additional power points (on top of the 2 additional points to wield a weapon), you may telekinetically wield a second weapon of the same size category or smaller than the maximum allowable by your other augments. This weapon may be used to attack the same target as the first weapon or a different target. For every additional 6 power points you spend in this manner, you may wield an additional weapon. You are still restricted by the power's normal weight limit. Telekinetic Maneuver Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 3 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level) Target: One creature Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your primary manifesting modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). Do not apply size modifiers to either your own or your target's rolls. You may not benefit from the Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip or Improved Bull Rush feats; however, you benefit as normal from the Improved Telekinetic combat feat. No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts. Also, an additional feat for telekinetic combat more in flavor with the concept than Improved Bull Rush, etc.: There. That's better. Listen, man; we beat you fair and square. Twice. Then had to save your sorry ass from the Nazis. Twice. You're our b!tches now. While the Nazi party in fact did not exist as of WW I, he does make a few very good points. You might even go so far as to say he hit the nail on the freakin' head. Twice.
CrimsonDeath 11-27-07, 09:42 PM	Just made NO SENSE.. seeing as you are hurling someone 10 ft per level. So I'm always opting to hurl people upward.. or off a cliff. :rolleyes: Or diagonally upward and off a cliff.
sijigs 11-27-07, 10:36 PM	Or diagonally upward and off a cliff. Hehe. Diagonally upward from an airship, I've done. :)
Sunrider 11-28-07, 04:49 AM	Edited earlier post - changed Telekinetic Manoeuvre to a 4th level, 7-point power as it should be. Stupid cut-and-paste :P Forget diagonally up from an airship... I've used the power to throw the airship itself, nose-first into another one! Served that gnomish Lantanna megalomaniac right for designing his 'bombers' with a sharp spike out the front, 'for aerodynamics' :P
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 01:44 PM	Edited earlier post - changed Telekinetic Manoeuvre to a 4th level, 7-point power as it should be. Stupid cut-and-paste :P Forget diagonally up from an airship... I've used the power to throw the airship itself, nose-first into another one! Served that gnomish Lantanna megalomaniac right for designing his 'bombers' with a sharp spike out the front, 'for aerodynamics' :P Good point. In D&D, a brick flies just as well as anything else, if you put enough magic behind it.
sijigs 11-28-07, 03:28 PM	Edited earlier post - changed Telekinetic Manoeuvre to a 4th level, 7-point power as it should be. Stupid cut-and-paste :P Forget diagonally up from an airship... I've used the power to throw the airship itself, nose-first into another one! Served that gnomish Lantanna megalomaniac right for designing his 'bombers' with a sharp spike out the front, 'for aerodynamics' :P What what????? hahaha.. that's cool. I'm really gonna have to lobby for this revision.
Sunrider 11-29-07, 09:58 PM	Actually, I'm considering adding a further augment/other use for Telekinetic Thrust, or perhaps another power (since the power point cost for something like this may be a bit steep). Basically, it would be a defensive power, available as an immediate action, allowing a psion to deflect a single ranged attack, volley of arrows (see Heroes of Battle or Miniatures Handbook or series of ranged attacks derived from a single casting of a spell or manifestation of a power, against herself or any target within a Short range, with an extra augment to deflect the attack directly back at the target. Picture it this way. You have several characters - Conan the Barbarian, Lara Croft, Obi-Wan and Yoda. Each is attacked by either a mid-level manifester using Telekinetic Throw or a squad of archers firing a targeted volley. The salvo of projectiles approaches. Conan takes it square in the chest and keeps on advancing. Lara Croft dodges the volley. Obi-wan uses the Force to deflect the incoming projectiles, scattering them all over the room, then draws his lightsaber. Yoda does the same thing, but, instead of scattering the projectiles around the room, deflects them straight back at the shooter or manifester, without needing his lightsaber! Any thoughts? Any takers?
sijigs 11-29-07, 10:17 PM	Telekinetic Deflection Yea I'm down! ;)
Sunrider 11-30-07, 09:41 AM	First draft: Telekinetic Deflection Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 2, Psychic Warrior 1 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 immediate action Range: Short (25ft + 5ft/2 levels); see text Target: See text Duration: Instantaneous; see text Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: None Power Points: Psion/Wilder 3, Psychic Warrior 1 By concentrating on an incoming attack, you telekinetically deflect it so that it strikes harmlessly away from yourself and your allies. An incoming volley of arrows may be scattered, falling harmlessly, while an incoming boulder or hail of rocks may be dispersed, chunks of rock sent flying violently in all directions, but away from you and your allies. Alternatively, you may choose instead to halt the attack in mid-air, the projectiles falling or being gently lowered to the ground instead of being sent flying. In response to any attack, power, spell or other ability requiring a ranged attack or ranged touch attack roll, aimed at any target or location with 25ft + 5ft/2 levels of yourself, you may, as an immediate action, attempt to deflect it. You must decide to use this power before knowing whether your opponent's attack roll was successful. Against projectiles not actively guided by magical or psionic means, such as an arrow (even a magic arrow), a volley of arrows (see Miniatures Handbook and Heroes of Battle) or a boulder thrown by a giant. Treat a volley of arrows, or multiple projectiles launched as part of a single action (e.g. Manyshot, Greater Manyshot or a Splitting weapon (see Champions of Ruin) as a single attack for the purpose of deflection (i.e. a single manifestation of this power disperses the entire volley). Against a non-natural attack (i.e. supernatural, psi-like, spell-like, power or spell), make a manifester level check opposed by the manifester or caster level of the opponent or creature making the attack. If you win the check, the attack is completely deflected and deals no damage. If you are beaten by 5 or less, the attack is still partly deflected, dealing half damage. If you are beaten by more than 5, the deflection is unsuccessful and the attack deals full damage. Treat a power or spell or other supernatural, spell-like or psi-like ability aimed at multiple targets (e.g. Crystal Shard manifested using Split Psionic Ray as a single attack when attempting to deflect it; a successful deflection negates the attack against all targets. You may only deflect attacks you are aware of; you cannot use this power while flat-footed or surprised. You may use it while immobilised, provided your mental functions are intact. You may also use it while blind or otherwise unable to see, provided you have another means of detecting incoming attacks. Augment You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways: 1. If you spend 2 additional power points, you may manifest this power as a free action instead. This allows the power to be manifested more than once in a single round, if you have the necessary power points. 2. You may spend 2 additional power points to gain a +1 bonus to the opposed manifester level check. For every 2 additional power points spent in this manner, you gain an additional +1 to the opposed check. 3. If you spend 4 additional power points, you may manifest this power after learning that your opponent's attack roll was successful. 4. If you spend 8 additional power points, you may attempt to deflect an attack directly back at its initiator, instead of allowing it to dissipate harmlessly. Make an attack roll using your manifester level instead of your base attack bonus and applying your primary manifesting ability bonus instead of your Dexterity or Strength bonus. If you strike the target, you deal the same damage as the attack would have dealt had it hit its original intended target or targets. If your deflection attempt fails, the additional power points are wasted. If your deflection is partly successful, make the attack roll as normal, but you only deflect half the damage back to the initiator (the other half strikes its intended target as normal). 5. If you spend 6 additional power points, you may, instead, deflect a single melee attack directed at you. 6. If you spend 6 additional power points (in addition to the 6 additional power points to deflect a melee attack), you may use the power to knock a melee weapon directly out of your opponent's hands (or other weapon-wielding appendages). Make an opposed attack roll, with your manifester level substituting for your base attack bonus and your primary manifesting ability bonus instead of your Dexterity or Strength bonus. Do not take size bonuses or penalties into account. If you equal or beat your opponent's roll, you may send the weapon used to attack you flying up to 10ft per manifester level in a direction of your choice. Ideally, to be combined with something like this (please, someone come up with a better name for it!): Preternatural Awareness Clairsentience Level: Psion/Wilder 5, Psychic Warrior 4 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: Self Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: None Power Points: Psion/Wilder 9, Psychic Warrior 7 Seeing momentarily into the ever-shifting future, you receive mental forewarning of incoming attacks against you before they arrive, or even before they are launched, manifested or cast. You are never surprised or flat-footed and do not lose your Dexterity bonus to armour class even when blinded, in darkness or otherwise unable to detect incoming attacks via your physical senses. Augment You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways. 1. If you spend 6 additional power points, your zone of awareness expands to a radius of 25ft + 5ft/2 levels. You are immediately aware of all attacks made against any target within your zone of awareness and can act on your awareness if you choose to (e.g. manifesting Telekinetic Deflection to deflect an attack, or manifesting Telekinetic Thrust to push an ally out of the way). 2. If you spend 4 additional power points, you gain a +2 Insight bonus to armour class and all saving throws for the duration of the power. For every 4 additional power points spent in this manner, you gain an additional +2 Insight bonus to armour class and saving throws. All in all? Powers for the more-subtle, non-fireball-throwing telekineticist that's perfect for both the tyrannical psions who like to shred their enemies with shards of flying rock and the pacifist Yoda-types who prefer to defend, subdue and capture with minimal physical harm done.
Omen_of_Peace 11-30-07, 08:09 PM	Your second power is a more powerful Foresight with longer duration at a lower level ? Make it Seer 7 (or 8), PW 5 (or 6). You should be more precise regarding the 1st augment - it seems you intend to let the manifester manifest TK Thrust as an immediate action ? You could look at Sense Danger (MoE) for some inspiration.
Sunrider 11-30-07, 08:38 PM	Your second power is a more powerful Foresight with longer duration at a lower level ? Make it Seer 7 (or 8), PW 5 (or 6). You could look at Sense Danger (MoE) for some inspiration. Actually, it's much less powerful than Foresight - without augments, it only makes you aware of incoming attacks (and thus immune to surprise or flat-footedness) with no bonuses to AC or saves and without giving an indication of what to do to avoid danger. Also, when unaugmented, it doesn't give any warning regarding danger to allies, nor does it give you scope to warn allies about danger even when fully augmented (you have to deflect the attack yourself). I looked at both Danger Sense (Psi/Wild 3, Psywar 3) and Foresight (Sor/Wiz 9, Magic 9, Druid 9) and tried to come up with something in between... In any case, why can't psionics be better than magic at some things anyway? You should be more precise regarding the 1st augment - it seems you intend to let the manifester manifest TK Thrust as an immediate action ? You can do that with Quicken Power. But, yes, it would make an interesting augment to TK Thrust too... adds more utility to the power beyond simply destroying things.
Omen_of_Peace 12-01-07, 07:24 AM	Actually, it's much less powerful than Foresight - without augments, it only makes you aware of incoming attacks (and thus immune to surprise or flat-footedness) with no bonuses to AC or saves and without giving an indication of what to do to avoid danger. Also, when unaugmented, it doesn't give any warning regarding danger to allies, nor does it give you scope to warn allies about danger even when fully augmented (you have to deflect the attack yourself). I looked at both Danger Sense (Psi/Wild 3, Psywar 3) and Foresight (Sor/Wiz 9, Magic 9, Druid 9) and tried to come up with something in between... In any case, why can't psionics be better than magic at some things anyway? Increased awareness is the most important part of Foresight. The bonuses are measly for a 9th level spell anyway and the indication part is heavily dependent on the DM's good graces (I haven't played a lot at very high levels, but my DMs did not think much of Foresight giving you indications - because it was too tedious to use it that way in-game, something I can sympathize with though I personally like the idea.) Even with the level jacked up, I would definitely take this power if it was on the general list, and augment it to include my allies as soon as possible - something Foresight can only do with (unlikely) multiple castings. So psionics would still do it better than magic. But it's your game, so have it your way. :) You can do that with Quicken Power. But, yes, it would make an interesting augment to TK Thrust too... adds more utility to the power beyond simply destroying things. Quicken makes it swift, not immediate, so you can't interrupt another creature's actions.
Sunrider 12-01-07, 11:55 PM	Increased awareness is the most important part of Foresight. The bonuses are measly for a 9th level spell anyway and the indication part is heavily dependent on the DM's good graces (I haven't played a lot at very high levels, but my DMs did not think much of Foresight giving you indications - because it was too tedious to use it that way in-game, something I can sympathize with though I personally like the idea.) Even with the level jacked up, I would definitely take this power if it was on the general list, and augment it to include my allies as soon as possible - something Foresight can only do with (unlikely) multiple castings. So psionics would still do it better than magic. But it's your game, so have it your way. :) *shrug* Whatever you like. Personally I don't see it as unbalancing even if it is more powerful than arcane/divine - after all, arcane spells are already far better than psionic powers at many other things (e.g. save-or-suffers (psionic ones are mostly Mind Affecting or have non-augmentable DCs and there's nothing quite like WotB), Gate, MDJ, etc.). IMO a power that only prevents you from being surprised (you still have to roll for initiative like everyone else, so you don't automatically get first shot, except that you can use TK Deflection to parry the enemy's first shot), with no numerical bonuses, seems fair for the equivalent of a 5th-level spell... maybe bump it up to 6th level, but probably no higher. Quicken makes it swift, not immediate, so you can't interrupt another creature's actions. D'oh... didn't think of that when I was coming up with the power... still, it would make a neat augment - TK Thrust for protection rather than simply hurling people off cliffs or throwing rocks at them.
sijigs 12-03-07, 02:17 AM	Hm.. maybe we should start a new thread. But anyhoo.. here's my 2c to TK Deflection. It's a cool power for sure and very useful. But perhaps *too* useful to be a 2nd level power? Better than say... Damp Power or a readied Dispel Magic.. or Spell Turning? Also the melee deflection rubs me the wrong way. I think that's why Deflection Field (cpsi 1) power was created. But what do I know.. :rolleyes:
Sunrider 12-04-07, 01:51 AM	Hm.. maybe we should start a new thread. But anyhoo.. here's my 2c to TK Deflection. It's a cool power for sure and very useful. But perhaps *too* useful to be a 2nd level power? Better than say... Damp Power or a readied Dispel Magic.. or Spell Turning? I was debating whether to make it 3rd level or 2nd level... in the end I made it 2nd level because making defence 'cheaper' than offense encourages smarter attacks, rather than simply bigger and bigger, and also balances the overall picture that tends to run towards all-out offense. Also, bear in mind that the power only works against a single attack - it's not like Spell Turning which can be cast once, then continues to provide protection until it runs out. But maybe 2nd level for the arrow deflection, together with an augment to a (effectively) 3rd- or 4th-level power for power/spell deflection, might be reasonable. Also the melee deflection rubs me the wrong way. I think that's why Deflection Field (cpsi 1) power was created. The way I visualised it was that, as the Barbarian charges the psion and swings his axe, the psion turns toward him and, at the last moment, mentally parries the swing, or, with enough psychic power, parries it with enough force to rip it entirely out of the barbarian's hands and fling it aside. Personally I like it's flavour more than that of Deflection Field - Deflection Field seems almost like a manifest-and-forget power, where a single manifestation produces a 'force field' which deflects attacks for a period of time - essentially a form of armour. I see the concept of fire-and-forget, with no mental effort necessary to keep it up, more as something a wizard would do; a psion, meanwhile, 'fences' mentally, using mental power to turn each individual blow aside and, with enough skill, even to riposte. But it really depends on the way you view psionics, I guess.