Telekintic Force + armour [Archive] - Wizards Community

Telekintic Force + armour [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
flamepheonix182
12-03-07, 08:45 PM I wanted to pick up a warriors armour ( which he was wearing) and move him, however my DM said that I couldn't do this cause once he's worn the armour it counts as part of him and the spell cannot target people. I thought that it would just be considered an attended object and the warrior would get a will save. Does anyone know which one is right?
sijigs
12-03-07, 10:03 PM Our group uses this version from the arcane spell Telekinesis, 5th level.

Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.

This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.

Hope that helps.
PhaedrusXY
12-04-07, 12:53 AM I don't know what your DM is talking about. Obviously the guy's armor is not a part of him, and the only rule I can think of that even hints at such a thing is the one that says you can't Sunder armor.
flamepheonix182
12-04-07, 02:17 AM ya thats what I thought. thanks for the help
InkBlot
12-04-07, 09:31 AM You're right. Your DM is crazy. The Warrior gets a will save.

Our group uses this version from the arcane spell Telekinesis, 5th level.

That's practically identical to the psionic power.

Telekinetic Force
Psychokinesis [Force]
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: One object at a time
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object); see text
Power Resistance: Yes (object)
Power Points: 5

You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops.

You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand.

If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier.

Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target increases by 25 pounds.
MnemonicSV
12-05-07, 02:05 AM I wanted to pick up a warriors armour ( which he was wearing) and move him, however my DM said that I couldn't do this cause once he's worn the armour it counts as part of him and the spell cannot target people. I thought that it would just be considered an attended object and the warrior would get a will save. Does anyone know which one is right?

As stated above, yes, the warrior gets a will save to negate, as the armour is just like any other "attended item" on the warrior's person.

The only problem is that a strict reading of the effect would indirectly bar you from lifting the warrior by grabbing a hold of his armour telekinetically. Although you can lift the weight of the armour itself with this power, the power says nothing to the effect that you can move anything attached to the armour. As the warrior (and his other gear) are not a part of the armour, they are not covered by the weight limit. A such, this power isn't really effective against any object that is tethered or held in place by an outside force. This power cannot apply force to any object other than the target of the effect.

Now, all that being said, I don't know a single DM who actually handles it that way. Most DMs just include anything attached to the object as being covered as though it were part of the object's weight (I know I do). This lets you do nifty things that make the power worthwhile, like lifting a warrior in his armour, lifting a bucket containing water (or, say, a halfling), wrenching a block out of a wall, pulling a handle... and so on. Most consider the effective "Strength" score of the power to be equal to the key abilitiy score of the manifester, when an opposed check comes into play.

So, unfortunately, it all still comes down to DM generosity. Good luck!
Tedronai
12-06-07, 08:40 AM The only problem is that a strict reading of the effect would indirectly bar you from lifting the warrior by grabbing a hold of his armour telekinetically. Although you can lift the weight of the armour itself with this power, the power says nothing to the effect that you can move anything attached to the armour. As the warrior (and his other gear) are not a part of the armour, they are not covered by the weight limit. A such, this power isn't really effective against any object that is tethered or held in place by an outside force. This power cannot apply force to any object other than the target of the effect.

According to that logic, you'd be lucky to EVER use this power on ANYTHING, as a single unfortunately placed speck of dust would prevent you from moving the targeted object. As such, and reading that results in that conclusion is absurd and MUST be false.
Technically, the power is limited only be the weight limit of the object targetted, and not any attached or otherwise affected objects. Meaning, among other things, that, technically, one could lift the Tarrasque by placing a collar around it's neck, and targetting the collar with this power. (equally absurd as the original assertion, but more supported by RAW, I suggest neither interpretation actually be used in gameplay)
The_Mess
12-06-07, 11:00 AM Of course! That's what control air is for! To blow the dust off objects you want to lift! Or, to blow dust on objects your opponent wants to lift!
MnemonicSV
12-06-07, 03:41 PM According to that logic, you'd be lucky to EVER use this power on ANYTHING, as a single unfortunately placed speck of dust would prevent you from moving the targeted object. As such, and reading that results in that conclusion is absurd and MUST be false.
Technically, the power is limited only be the weight limit of the object targetted, and not any attached or otherwise affected objects. Meaning, among other things, that, technically, one could lift the Tarrasque by placing a collar around it's neck, and targetting the collar with this power. (equally absurd as the original assertion, but more supported by RAW, I suggest neither interpretation actually be used in gameplay)

As implied, even I don't use the power "to the letter" that way... since that would in effect make it useless. I was only speaking in theoretical "by the description only" terms. Rules lawyering has it's limits, even for a rules lawyer like myself.

I don't think telekinetically moving people by grabbing their armour is unreasonable. The affected character is hardly helpless, and can easily take actions independant of movement. The concentrating psion is still an obvious target for a "floating" bowman.

As for the Tarrasque (weighing in at 130 tons!), I very much doubt we will soon see a psion with a sufficient ML to lift that much. Collar included nonetheless. I never said moving an object would make anything attached to it suddenly "weightless."

However, the "speck of dust" argument is invalid. At least some leeway has to be had, not with just this power, but all powers... even when used "to the letter."

By a similar train of thought stepping on an ant or swallowing a live spider would end an invisibility spell. Or, a character under the effects of expansion couldn't breathe because the air around him isn't affected. But again, that's when the DM steps in and says... "whoa, whoa, whoa, ok, let's not be ridiculous here." A decent DM has to let some things slide, including specks of dust, or similar irrelevant details that would bog down play and ruin the spirit of the power's effects.
flamepheonix182
12-06-07, 08:28 PM thhanks, I'll present these arguments to my DM. I took the power and now I'm not really finding any use for it. hopefully he gives or its going to become the victim of a reformation
Tedronai
12-06-07, 10:38 PM As for the Tarrasque (weighing in at 130 tons!), I very much doubt we will soon see a psion with a sufficient ML to lift that much. Collar included nonetheless. I never said moving an object would make anything attached to it suddenly "weightless."

The point of that argument is not that you said as much, but rather that, if logic is put aside in favour of RAW, the power description does.

However, the "speck of dust" argument is invalid. At least some leeway has to be had, not with just this power, but all powers... even when used "to the letter."

No less valid than an interpretation that would prevent the lifting of an individual by their armour, since it is, in fact, the same interpretation.
MnemonicSV
12-06-07, 11:22 PM Not really actually. Those are two very distinct interpretations.

Making the assertion that the power cannot affect anything attached to it is limiting, but certainly allowable. The power still has many useful applications... simply less of them.

Making the assertion that the power can affect anything attached to it as "weightless," frankly, makes this power broken to the nth degree. Godlike almost. Common sense must kick in somewhere... even the staunchest rules lawyer must concede that this assertion, regardless of it not being contradicted RAW, is simply ridiculous.

There is a solid distinction. The former case is at least plausible. The latter case is not even remotely plausible. If a DM wants to actually use the power RAW, the former case is the only possible acceptable one.

Again though, like I said, I wouldn't play this power either of the above ways, instead opting for the "gray realm" that actually makes sense. Let the power move the object, and anything attached to it, so long as it all doesn't exceed the maximum weight. Hardly gamebreaking.
ToastedAmphibian
12-07-07, 12:10 AM Exscuse me? Is this a famished pixie warrior or something? If this WARRIOR, in full gear and armor, weighs LESS than 250 lbs, he deserves to be swallowed whole. Somewhere you have to draw a line about what an "Object" is. If the warrior weighs more than 250 lbs, then moving the armor shouldnt have any affect. If you say he cant move because your moving his armor, then the power goes back to being overpowered.

Look, the power can LIFT one object weighing up to 250 lbs. A creature may lift an object weing up to twice its maximum carrying capacity. That puts this powers "Strenght" between 11 and 12. Unless a character with 11-12 strength can walkover, pull this "Warrior" off his feet, and walk off with him kicking and screaming, then the power shouldnt be able to do it either (Oh, one-handed mind you)
MnemonicSV
12-07-07, 12:44 AM Er... isn't that why there's a Will save? Personally, I'd also allow a Reflex save to allow the character a chance to grab ahold of something anchored, but that's a only a houserule.

Anyway, beyond the simple "lets all assume he augmented the power up to an appropriate weight limit" tangent, isn't comparing a power to "what a creature could do" kind of like comparing apples to oranges?

Powers can do things people can't. I mean, that's the point isn't it? If we limit what this power can do to what a creature with 11 Strength could do one-handed in it's place, then you could also only lift something as high as you could reach. Or, you could only grab something by selecting a point on the object (as a hand would) instead of grabbing the object as a whole. For that matter, how could you even grab an object (as a hand would) that doesn't have a handhold or is slick? That's just a can of worms I don't think any of us want to open.

I never suggested that a person should be considered an innanimate object either, only that they too would be along for the ride if they lacked a means of letting go of the attended item (like armour).
ToastedAmphibian
12-07-07, 11:30 PM You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops.

You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand.

How could you grab an object that doesnt have a handhold or is slick? With two hands. Which you cant do with this power. Or if you had a large hand. Which you can do with this power.

Powers can do things people can't. I mean, that's the point isn't it? If we limit what this power can do to what a creature with 11 Strength could do one-handed in it's place, then you could also only lift something as high as you could reach
First off, you could lift the object only as far as the POWER with 11 str could reach, also know as 100 ft. + 10 ft./ level. And second, yes powers can do things that people cant do. That dosnt mean they can do everything witout restriction. The power says that it is strong enough to move 250lbs (+25 lbs per point >5 I missed that part before and i apologize) Nowhere does it say that it is capable of holding that object in place despite another force pushing on it with greater than 250 lbs of force, nor does it say that you can pull an immovable rod around with you, even though it weighs less than 250lbs.
CrimsonDeath
12-08-07, 12:11 AM Exscuse me? Is this a famished pixie warrior or something? If this WARRIOR, in full gear and armor, weighs LESS than 250 lbs, he deserves to be swallowed whole.

A Gnome with 16 Strength (beginning racial max for a gnome) carrying a max load weighs in at around 170lb.

Just for a point of reference.
MnemonicSV
12-09-07, 01:42 AM How could you grab an object that doesnt have a handhold or is slick? With two hands. Which you cant do with this power. Or if you had a large hand. Which you can do with this power.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then. I really do think you're reading too much into the "manipulated as one hand" thing though. I mean, this isn't a bigby's spell or something. I find it unlikely that the power is actually creating some sort of virtual/invisible/intangible hand that you are moving around with your mind. If it were, there would be details about said "hand," such as it's size like you mentioned, or dexterity since this "hand" manipulates things. Much like dimension door (which doesn't actually create any kind of door), far hand (and thus by extension the case in point, telekinetic force) is something of a misnomer.

I always personally read the "one hand" text as meaning that you can't use the power to perform complex manipulations with it. Like flipping to a specific page of a book you're lifting, or braiding a few different pieces of rope tied together. It was just intended to describe the simplistic motions you can perform with the object, such as rotating it midair, or snaking it around something.

Perhaps I'm just a traditionalist, but reverse-engineering attribute scores out of power's effects has never sat well with me. It seems like a perversion of the power's intended effect. A power isn't intended to have an effective attribute score, unless it's specifically mentioned in the text.

Even then, reverse-engineering a Strength score from a power's maximum weight allowance doesn't follow suit with the effective attributes generated by other powers in which they are specifically called out. Such attributes are usually based on the key ability score of the manifester, or a specific (and perhaps augmentable) ability score. Even then, this is usually only for the purpose of checks (the obvious exception being powers which effectively create "creatures" with their own attributes).

Were this not the case, then powers with lifting effects wouldn't have weight listings at all. They would all be noted with a Strength score instead. And that would just be a hassle to look up all the time, as I suspect you would agree.

Additionally, this (the power having an actual Strength score) would allow you to perform actions not intended by the power at all. If this power had an effective Strength score, you could also use it to lift an object twice the noted maximum weight (albeit just in it's place), or allow you to drag an object five times (!!!) the noted maximum weight (albeit at only 5 feet/round). Honestly, if that isn't a perversion of the intended effect, what on earth is?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
flamepheonix182 12-03-07, 08:45 PM	I wanted to pick up a warriors armour ( which he was wearing) and move him, however my DM said that I couldn't do this cause once he's worn the armour it counts as part of him and the spell cannot target people. I thought that it would just be considered an attended object and the warrior would get a will save. Does anyone know which one is right?
sijigs 12-03-07, 10:03 PM	Our group uses this version from the arcane spell Telekinesis, 5th level. Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks. Hope that helps.
PhaedrusXY 12-04-07, 12:53 AM	I don't know what your DM is talking about. Obviously the guy's armor is not a part of him, and the only rule I can think of that even hints at such a thing is the one that says you can't Sunder armor.
flamepheonix182 12-04-07, 02:17 AM	ya thats what I thought. thanks for the help
InkBlot 12-04-07, 09:31 AM	You're right. Your DM is crazy. The Warrior gets a will save. Our group uses this version from the arcane spell Telekinesis, 5th level. That's practically identical to the psionic power. Telekinetic Force Psychokinesis [Force] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: One object at a time Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes (object) Power Points: 5 You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target increases by 25 pounds.
MnemonicSV 12-05-07, 02:05 AM	I wanted to pick up a warriors armour ( which he was wearing) and move him, however my DM said that I couldn't do this cause once he's worn the armour it counts as part of him and the spell cannot target people. I thought that it would just be considered an attended object and the warrior would get a will save. Does anyone know which one is right? As stated above, yes, the warrior gets a will save to negate, as the armour is just like any other "attended item" on the warrior's person. The only problem is that a strict reading of the effect would indirectly bar you from lifting the warrior by grabbing a hold of his armour telekinetically. Although you can lift the weight of the armour itself with this power, the power says nothing to the effect that you can move anything attached to the armour. As the warrior (and his other gear) are not a part of the armour, they are not covered by the weight limit. A such, this power isn't really effective against any object that is tethered or held in place by an outside force. This power cannot apply force to any object other than the target of the effect. Now, all that being said, I don't know a single DM who actually handles it that way. Most DMs just include anything attached to the object as being covered as though it were part of the object's weight (I know I do). This lets you do nifty things that make the power worthwhile, like lifting a warrior in his armour, lifting a bucket containing water (or, say, a halfling), wrenching a block out of a wall, pulling a handle... and so on. Most consider the effective "Strength" score of the power to be equal to the key abilitiy score of the manifester, when an opposed check comes into play. So, unfortunately, it all still comes down to DM generosity. Good luck!
Tedronai 12-06-07, 08:40 AM	The only problem is that a strict reading of the effect would indirectly bar you from lifting the warrior by grabbing a hold of his armour telekinetically. Although you can lift the weight of the armour itself with this power, the power says nothing to the effect that you can move anything attached to the armour. As the warrior (and his other gear) are not a part of the armour, they are not covered by the weight limit. A such, this power isn't really effective against any object that is tethered or held in place by an outside force. This power cannot apply force to any object other than the target of the effect. According to that logic, you'd be lucky to EVER use this power on ANYTHING, as a single unfortunately placed speck of dust would prevent you from moving the targeted object. As such, and reading that results in that conclusion is absurd and MUST be false. Technically, the power is limited only be the weight limit of the object targetted, and not any attached or otherwise affected objects. Meaning, among other things, that, technically, one could lift the Tarrasque by placing a collar around it's neck, and targetting the collar with this power. (equally absurd as the original assertion, but more supported by RAW, I suggest neither interpretation actually be used in gameplay)
The_Mess 12-06-07, 11:00 AM	Of course! That's what control air is for! To blow the dust off objects you want to lift! Or, to blow dust on objects your opponent wants to lift!
MnemonicSV 12-06-07, 03:41 PM	According to that logic, you'd be lucky to EVER use this power on ANYTHING, as a single unfortunately placed speck of dust would prevent you from moving the targeted object. As such, and reading that results in that conclusion is absurd and MUST be false. Technically, the power is limited only be the weight limit of the object targetted, and not any attached or otherwise affected objects. Meaning, among other things, that, technically, one could lift the Tarrasque by placing a collar around it's neck, and targetting the collar with this power. (equally absurd as the original assertion, but more supported by RAW, I suggest neither interpretation actually be used in gameplay) As implied, even I don't use the power "to the letter" that way... since that would in effect make it useless. I was only speaking in theoretical "by the description only" terms. Rules lawyering has it's limits, even for a rules lawyer like myself. I don't think telekinetically moving people by grabbing their armour is unreasonable. The affected character is hardly helpless, and can easily take actions independant of movement. The concentrating psion is still an obvious target for a "floating" bowman. As for the Tarrasque (weighing in at 130 tons!), I very much doubt we will soon see a psion with a sufficient ML to lift that much. Collar included nonetheless. I never said moving an object would make anything attached to it suddenly "weightless." However, the "speck of dust" argument is invalid. At least some leeway has to be had, not with just this power, but all powers... even when used "to the letter." By a similar train of thought stepping on an ant or swallowing a live spider would end an invisibility spell. Or, a character under the effects of expansion couldn't breathe because the air around him isn't affected. But again, that's when the DM steps in and says... "whoa, whoa, whoa, ok, let's not be ridiculous here." A decent DM has to let some things slide, including specks of dust, or similar irrelevant details that would bog down play and ruin the spirit of the power's effects.
flamepheonix182 12-06-07, 08:28 PM	thhanks, I'll present these arguments to my DM. I took the power and now I'm not really finding any use for it. hopefully he gives or its going to become the victim of a reformation
Tedronai 12-06-07, 10:38 PM	As for the Tarrasque (weighing in at 130 tons!), I very much doubt we will soon see a psion with a sufficient ML to lift that much. Collar included nonetheless. I never said moving an object would make anything attached to it suddenly "weightless." The point of that argument is not that you said as much, but rather that, if logic is put aside in favour of RAW, the power description does. However, the "speck of dust" argument is invalid. At least some leeway has to be had, not with just this power, but all powers... even when used "to the letter." No less valid than an interpretation that would prevent the lifting of an individual by their armour, since it is, in fact, the same interpretation.
MnemonicSV 12-06-07, 11:22 PM	Not really actually. Those are two very distinct interpretations. Making the assertion that the power cannot affect anything attached to it is limiting, but certainly allowable. The power still has many useful applications... simply less of them. Making the assertion that the power can affect anything attached to it as "weightless," frankly, makes this power broken to the nth degree. Godlike almost. Common sense must kick in somewhere... even the staunchest rules lawyer must concede that this assertion, regardless of it not being contradicted RAW, is simply ridiculous. There is a solid distinction. The former case is at least plausible. The latter case is not even remotely plausible. If a DM wants to actually use the power RAW, the former case is the only possible acceptable one. Again though, like I said, I wouldn't play this power either of the above ways, instead opting for the "gray realm" that actually makes sense. Let the power move the object, and anything attached to it, so long as it all doesn't exceed the maximum weight. Hardly gamebreaking.
ToastedAmphibian 12-07-07, 12:10 AM	Exscuse me? Is this a famished pixie warrior or something? If this WARRIOR, in full gear and armor, weighs LESS than 250 lbs, he deserves to be swallowed whole. Somewhere you have to draw a line about what an "Object" is. If the warrior weighs more than 250 lbs, then moving the armor shouldnt have any affect. If you say he cant move because your moving his armor, then the power goes back to being overpowered. Look, the power can LIFT one object weighing up to 250 lbs. A creature may lift an object weing up to twice its maximum carrying capacity. That puts this powers "Strenght" between 11 and 12. Unless a character with 11-12 strength can walkover, pull this "Warrior" off his feet, and walk off with him kicking and screaming, then the power shouldnt be able to do it either (Oh, one-handed mind you)
MnemonicSV 12-07-07, 12:44 AM	Er... isn't that why there's a Will save? Personally, I'd also allow a Reflex save to allow the character a chance to grab ahold of something anchored, but that's a only a houserule. Anyway, beyond the simple "lets all assume he augmented the power up to an appropriate weight limit" tangent, isn't comparing a power to "what a creature could do" kind of like comparing apples to oranges? Powers can do things people can't. I mean, that's the point isn't it? If we limit what this power can do to what a creature with 11 Strength could do one-handed in it's place, then you could also only lift something as high as you could reach. Or, you could only grab something by selecting a point on the object (as a hand would) instead of grabbing the object as a whole. For that matter, how could you even grab an object (as a hand would) that doesn't have a handhold or is slick? That's just a can of worms I don't think any of us want to open. I never suggested that a person should be considered an innanimate object either, only that they too would be along for the ride if they lacked a means of letting go of the attended item (like armour).
ToastedAmphibian 12-07-07, 11:30 PM	You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. How could you grab an object that doesnt have a handhold or is slick? With two hands. Which you cant do with this power. Or if you had a large hand. Which you can do with this power. Powers can do things people can't. I mean, that's the point isn't it? If we limit what this power can do to what a creature with 11 Strength could do one-handed in it's place, then you could also only lift something as high as you could reach First off, you could lift the object only as far as the POWER with 11 str could reach, also know as 100 ft. + 10 ft./ level. And second, yes powers can do things that people cant do. That dosnt mean they can do everything witout restriction. The power says that it is strong enough to move 250lbs (+25 lbs per point >5 I missed that part before and i apologize) Nowhere does it say that it is capable of holding that object in place despite another force pushing on it with greater than 250 lbs of force, nor does it say that you can pull an immovable rod around with you, even though it weighs less than 250lbs.
CrimsonDeath 12-08-07, 12:11 AM	Exscuse me? Is this a famished pixie warrior or something? If this WARRIOR, in full gear and armor, weighs LESS than 250 lbs, he deserves to be swallowed whole. A Gnome with 16 Strength (beginning racial max for a gnome) carrying a max load weighs in at around 170lb. Just for a point of reference.
MnemonicSV 12-09-07, 01:42 AM	How could you grab an object that doesnt have a handhold or is slick? With two hands. Which you cant do with this power. Or if you had a large hand. Which you can do with this power. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then. I really do think you're reading too much into the "manipulated as one hand" thing though. I mean, this isn't a bigby's spell or something. I find it unlikely that the power is actually creating some sort of virtual/invisible/intangible hand that you are moving around with your mind. If it were, there would be details about said "hand," such as it's size like you mentioned, or dexterity since this "hand" manipulates things. Much like dimension door (which doesn't actually create any kind of door), far hand (and thus by extension the case in point, telekinetic force) is something of a misnomer. I always personally read the "one hand" text as meaning that you can't use the power to perform complex manipulations with it. Like flipping to a specific page of a book you're lifting, or braiding a few different pieces of rope tied together. It was just intended to describe the simplistic motions you can perform with the object, such as rotating it midair, or snaking it around something. Perhaps I'm just a traditionalist, but reverse-engineering attribute scores out of power's effects has never sat well with me. It seems like a perversion of the power's intended effect. A power isn't intended to have an effective attribute score, unless it's specifically mentioned in the text. Even then, reverse-engineering a Strength score from a power's maximum weight allowance doesn't follow suit with the effective attributes generated by other powers in which they are specifically called out. Such attributes are usually based on the key ability score of the manifester, or a specific (and perhaps augmentable) ability score. Even then, this is usually only for the purpose of checks (the obvious exception being powers which effectively create "creatures" with their own attributes). Were this not the case, then powers with lifting effects wouldn't have weight listings at all. They would all be noted with a Strength score instead. And that would just be a hassle to look up all the time, as I suspect you would agree. Additionally, this (the power having an actual Strength score) would allow you to perform actions not intended by the power at all. If this power had an effective Strength score, you could also use it to lift an object twice the noted maximum weight (albeit just in it's place), or allow you to drag an object five times (!!!) the noted maximum weight (albeit at only 5 feet/round). Honestly, if that isn't a perversion of the intended effect, what on earth is?