Telempathic Projection - in Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Telempathic Projection - in Combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
quill18
08-27-07, 09:01 PM Hi there,

I'm DMing my first campaign with Psionics since 2nd Ed., so I'm still learning how many of the powers work. It's a 3.5 campaign with the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

We're in the middle of a fight with Bad Guy and two goons when the party Psion uses Telempathic Projection on the Bad Guy. At this point, we're a round or two into combat. So...you shift the guy's mood from Hostile to Unfriendly, but he's busy locking swords with the party fighter right then. Does he disengage? That didn't seem right to me.

On the other hand, it seems like an awfully weak power then, compared to abilities available to other classes. Charm Person sends the foe straight to "Friendly" - and for 1 hour per level (instead of 1 minute per level).

Am I missing something? Should Telempathic Projection be able to break combat? That's already under way? When the target isn't alone? When the target is dueling someone other than the manifester?

:confused:
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-27-07, 10:01 PM Hi there,

I'm DMing my first campaign with Psionics since 2nd Ed., so I'm still learning how many of the powers work. It's a 3.5 campaign with the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

We're in the middle of a fight with Bad Guy and two goons when the party Psion uses Telempathic Projection on the Bad Guy. At this point, we're a round or two into combat. So...you shift the guy's mood from Hostile to Unfriendly, but he's busy locking swords with the party fighter right then. Does he disengage? That didn't seem right to me.

On the other hand, it seems like an awfully weak power then, compared to abilities available to other classes. Charm Person sends the foe straight to "Friendly" - and for 1 hour per level (instead of 1 minute per level).

Am I missing something? Should Telempathic Projection be able to break combat? That's already under way? When the target isn't alone? When the target is dueling someone other than the manifester?

:confused:

Check out the Diplomacy skill. The only applicable action I see under there is "avoid". All this really means is that the psion took the will to kill out of the BBEG, which means he'll probably disengage. As a BBEG, he'll probably tell the party they're not worth his time and leave, possibly letting his minions finish them off (your BBEG has lots of minions to keep the PCs from overpowering him with their available actions, right?) if he still has good reason to see them dead.

It's a very creative use of a low-level telepathy power to overcome an encounter (even if it's a cop-out, which means they don't get any of his loot and they shouldn't get full experience for it), and if the BBEG fails his save then they're certainly entitled to some kind of resolution for the encounter. Psionics is already lacking in the save-or-die department, so I see no reason not to allow this. Besides, after 1 minute/level he'll be right back to hostile, he'll probably use the time to heal up, buff himself, and get right back into the fray.

If you need justification, you'll find that a bit harder to resolve. The most common way to look at Charm effects is that they compel their targets to come up with their own reasons for their actions (see Erfworld (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0072.html)). In this case, the BBEG suddenly looks at the fight much less favorably, as the PCs are obviously doing very well against him, and decides that he needs to fall back, even if only temporarily. It's not that he likes the party now, he just is seeing things in a different light.
quill18
08-27-07, 10:47 PM Thank you! That's the sort of reasoning I was looking for.
Tempest Stormwind
08-27-07, 11:03 PM What do you mean, shouldn't get full experience for it? That's *completely* dependent on what he was doing.

If the PCs were meant to *kill* him, or get him to stop his plan or something, then no, not full XP (though they could re-engage him later after having stomped the minions alone). However, if the PCs were meant to hold him off, get him out of the area, or anything else that they actually succeeded in doing, then they get full XP for overcoming the challenge.

It's just like how in Eberron games, it's full XP if the BBEG escapes after you blow up his Destroy The World Machine, since your goal was to stop him from destroying the world.

If the situation demands it...?
AntiDjinn
08-28-07, 01:16 AM Telempathic Projection is perhaps not the best battlefield power. It grants a +4 bonus to a set of social interaction skills, most of which are of little value once combat has started (well, except your party rogue is certainly going to appreciate the boost to his Bluff (feint) check). So don't worry if Charm and Attraction give you a better return once a fight has started, settling a fight isn't Telempathic Projection's job.

The power has some minor advantages over similar telepathic powers. It is one of few powers by which a psion can grant bonuses to other party members. It can target any creature that is not immune to mind-affecting effects; you don't need to share a language, you don't need to augment it to affect animals or monsters as you do Charm. Its major drawback is that it does not have a DC augmentation so after a few levels you will simply stop using it except on animals and other creatures with a low Will save.

As far as XP for finding an alternate solution to a problem, characters get XP for overcoming challenges not for "hunting" or camping spawn points to mince monsters. If the opponent's function was to prevent the party from completing its goal, and killing this person was not, itself, the mission objective, then however they managed to bypass him, they won. Killing him was one option, but so was getting him to stand down, or even making him an ally. In any case, if the challenge is overcome then the XP should be awarded, even if the method was something you never expected.
InkBlot
08-28-07, 08:54 AM Check out the Diplomacy skill. The only applicable action I see under there is "avoid". All this really means is that the psion took the will to kill out of the BBEG, which means he'll probably disengage. As a BBEG, he'll probably tell the party they're not worth his time and leave, possibly letting his minions finish them off (your BBEG has lots of minions to keep the PCs from overpowering him with their available actions, right?) if he still has good reason to see them dead.
And if anyone attacks him after he disengages, then the BBEG's would certainly fight back. The power hasn't ended, so the heroes still have a +4 to various skills, but at that point it's a matter of self-defense. Even an indifferent creature would fight back against it's attackers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quill18 08-27-07, 09:01 PM	Hi there, I'm DMing my first campaign with Psionics since 2nd Ed., so I'm still learning how many of the powers work. It's a 3.5 campaign with the Expanded Psionics Handbook. We're in the middle of a fight with Bad Guy and two goons when the party Psion uses Telempathic Projection on the Bad Guy. At this point, we're a round or two into combat. So...you shift the guy's mood from Hostile to Unfriendly, but he's busy locking swords with the party fighter right then. Does he disengage? That didn't seem right to me. On the other hand, it seems like an awfully weak power then, compared to abilities available to other classes. Charm Person sends the foe straight to "Friendly" - and for 1 hour per level (instead of 1 minute per level). Am I missing something? Should Telempathic Projection be able to break combat? That's already under way? When the target isn't alone? When the target is dueling someone other than the manifester? :confused:
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-27-07, 10:01 PM	Hi there, I'm DMing my first campaign with Psionics since 2nd Ed., so I'm still learning how many of the powers work. It's a 3.5 campaign with the Expanded Psionics Handbook. We're in the middle of a fight with Bad Guy and two goons when the party Psion uses Telempathic Projection on the Bad Guy. At this point, we're a round or two into combat. So...you shift the guy's mood from Hostile to Unfriendly, but he's busy locking swords with the party fighter right then. Does he disengage? That didn't seem right to me. On the other hand, it seems like an awfully weak power then, compared to abilities available to other classes. Charm Person sends the foe straight to "Friendly" - and for 1 hour per level (instead of 1 minute per level). Am I missing something? Should Telempathic Projection be able to break combat? That's already under way? When the target isn't alone? When the target is dueling someone other than the manifester? :confused: Check out the Diplomacy skill. The only applicable action I see under there is "avoid". All this really means is that the psion took the will to kill out of the BBEG, which means he'll probably disengage. As a BBEG, he'll probably tell the party they're not worth his time and leave, possibly letting his minions finish them off (your BBEG has lots of minions to keep the PCs from overpowering him with their available actions, right?) if he still has good reason to see them dead. It's a very creative use of a low-level telepathy power to overcome an encounter (even if it's a cop-out, which means they don't get any of his loot and they shouldn't get full experience for it), and if the BBEG fails his save then they're certainly entitled to some kind of resolution for the encounter. Psionics is already lacking in the save-or-die department, so I see no reason not to allow this. Besides, after 1 minute/level he'll be right back to hostile, he'll probably use the time to heal up, buff himself, and get right back into the fray. If you need justification, you'll find that a bit harder to resolve. The most common way to look at Charm effects is that they compel their targets to come up with their own reasons for their actions (see Erfworld (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0072.html)). In this case, the BBEG suddenly looks at the fight much less favorably, as the PCs are obviously doing very well against him, and decides that he needs to fall back, even if only temporarily. It's not that he likes the party now, he just is seeing things in a different light.
quill18 08-27-07, 10:47 PM	Thank you! That's the sort of reasoning I was looking for.
Tempest Stormwind 08-27-07, 11:03 PM	What do you mean, shouldn't get full experience for it? That's completely dependent on what he was doing. If the PCs were meant to kill him, or get him to stop his plan or something, then no, not full XP (though they could re-engage him later after having stomped the minions alone). However, if the PCs were meant to hold him off, get him out of the area, or anything else that they actually succeeded in doing, then they get full XP for overcoming the challenge. It's just like how in Eberron games, it's full XP if the BBEG escapes after you blow up his Destroy The World Machine, since your goal was to stop him from destroying the world. If the situation demands it...?
AntiDjinn 08-28-07, 01:16 AM	Telempathic Projection is perhaps not the best battlefield power. It grants a +4 bonus to a set of social interaction skills, most of which are of little value once combat has started (well, except your party rogue is certainly going to appreciate the boost to his Bluff (feint) check). So don't worry if Charm and Attraction give you a better return once a fight has started, settling a fight isn't Telempathic Projection's job. The power has some minor advantages over similar telepathic powers. It is one of few powers by which a psion can grant bonuses to other party members. It can target any creature that is not immune to mind-affecting effects; you don't need to share a language, you don't need to augment it to affect animals or monsters as you do Charm. Its major drawback is that it does not have a DC augmentation so after a few levels you will simply stop using it except on animals and other creatures with a low Will save. As far as XP for finding an alternate solution to a problem, characters get XP for overcoming challenges not for "hunting" or camping spawn points to mince monsters. If the opponent's function was to prevent the party from completing its goal, and killing this person was not, itself, the mission objective, then however they managed to bypass him, they won. Killing him was one option, but so was getting him to stand down, or even making him an ally. In any case, if the challenge is overcome then the XP should be awarded, even if the method was something you never expected.
InkBlot 08-28-07, 08:54 AM	Check out the Diplomacy skill. The only applicable action I see under there is "avoid". All this really means is that the psion took the will to kill out of the BBEG, which means he'll probably disengage. As a BBEG, he'll probably tell the party they're not worth his time and leave, possibly letting his minions finish them off (your BBEG has lots of minions to keep the PCs from overpowering him with their available actions, right?) if he still has good reason to see them dead. And if anyone attacks him after he disengages, then the BBEG's would certainly fight back. The power hasn't ended, so the heroes still have a +4 to various skills, but at that point it's a matter of self-defense. Even an indifferent creature would fight back against it's attackers.