Telepath Powers Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Telepath Powers Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BloodyChariot
05-29-07, 12:15 PM My question is simple: once a telepath has Dominate, does he need Charm or Suggestion anymore?
Rageheart
05-29-07, 12:30 PM Hmm.... much like asking "Does a Mage need Magic missle after he gets Fireball?"

Yes... cause somtimes Fireballing a lone kobold is overkill, and you may need that big spell later.

just my .02 gp
skywyze
05-29-07, 12:47 PM There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration."

Edit:
Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again.

Lastly, a victim of dominate might look back on his actions when the spell ends and grow incredibly suspicious. Charm is a lot less... Obvious.

I'd say use dominate for combat and charm for everything else. There are exceptions of course, but just in general.
BloodyChariot
05-29-07, 12:55 PM There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration."

No, dominate can also last for days (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm).
The_Ditto
05-29-07, 12:55 PM There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration."

*ahem*

4. If you spend 1 additional power point, this power’s duration is 1 hour rather than concentration. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power.s duration is 1 day rather than concentration. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power.s duration is 1 day per manifester level rather than concentration.

:tiphat:
skywyze
05-29-07, 12:59 PM I'm looking in my hardcopy book and I can't see that anywhere. I guess it must've been errataed or something. Either way, ignore that point.
BloodyChariot
05-29-07, 01:04 PM ...Edit:
Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again.

Why not use Diplomacy then? At level 10, I could easily get myself a +22 Diplomacy with even a charisma of +0. That costs no power points, does it not?
Rageheart
05-29-07, 01:05 PM Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again.

Sigged :tiphat:
skywyze
05-29-07, 01:08 PM Why not use Diplomacy then? At level 10, I could easily get myself a +22 Diplomacy with even a charisma of +0. That costs no power points, does it not?Cause you can use Charm at level 1? Cause skill points are incredibly valuable? Because sometimes you need both diplomacy AND charm to pull the little stunt off? Lots of reasons, imo.;)
BloodyChariot
05-29-07, 01:13 PM Cause you can use Charm at level 1? Cause skill points are incredibly valuable? Because sometimes you need both diplomacy AND charm to pull the little stunt off? Lots of reasons, imo.;)

Good deal. I concede.
CrimsonDeath
05-29-07, 04:16 PM Also, the Sense Motive DC to detect a Charmed ally is much higher than the DC to detect a Dominated ally, and I'm not sure there is a Sense Motive check to detect an ally under a Suggestion.
Psikerlord
05-29-07, 04:56 PM Personally, I got rid of charm, and only have dominate. With the errata it lasts plenty long, you get multiple targets for extra 2 pp, and the DC is nice and high. Charm person was never any good in combat, but it was a nice out of combat "friend, please help us" power. My guy has very high diplomacy however, and the party can generally get help that way. In fact, often it's better than charm person, because no-one likes magic being used on them without their permission (ie: if they make their save, they're going to be upset!) You don't have that problem if you fail a diplomacy check. I have never used suggestion, so I can't comment on that.
The_Ditto
05-30-07, 07:44 AM I'm looking in my hardcopy book and I can't see that anywhere. I guess it must've been errataed or something. Either way, ignore that point.

Yeah, the errata has it .. the SRD appears to be updated with it as well (the quote I took was direct from the SRD ... ) :tiphat:
Slagger the Chuul
05-30-07, 08:13 AM To elaborate on what skywyze mentioned, you might use psionic charm or psionic suggestion because you want to be subtle. Psionic dominate is the telepathic equivalent of a cannon; you can blast in the doors and annihilate everything, but it makes a lot of mess and leaves a trail a mile wide.

For example, suppose you meet a low-level thug in the city and want him to take you to the local crime boss. You could use psionic dominate, but you'll end up needing to kill your little puppet to cover your tracks, unless you clean up afterwards with something like psionic modify memory (and if it takes a while to reach your destination, that could require multiple manifestations). If you use subtler methods, you could have that same thug lead you along happily so that he isn't left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot.
The_Ditto
05-30-07, 02:36 PM left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot.

:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh

(sorry, you forgot the evil cackling laughter ... I filled it in for ya ... :P )
BloodyChariot
05-30-07, 03:28 PM To elaborate on what skywyze mentioned, you might use psionic charm or psionic suggestion because you want to be subtle. Psionic dominate is the telepathic equivalent of a cannon; you can blast in the doors and annihilate everything, but it makes a lot of mess and leaves a trail a mile wide.

For example, suppose you meet a low-level thug in the city and want him to take you to the local crime boss. You could use psionic dominate, but you'll end up needing to kill your little puppet to cover your tracks, unless you clean up afterwards with something like psionic modify memory (and if it takes a while to reach your destination, that could require multiple manifestations). If you use subtler methods, you could have that same thug lead you along happily so that he isn't left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot.

But as I've already said, would it not be even more subtle to not use magic at all?

In your example you've noted the character not using psionic dominate when he or she has access to it, so let's assume the telepath is level 7. By then, the telepath's diplomacy is already at 19. In the course of just two minutes (like you've said, it's going to take a while to get there anyway, so he has the time), the telepath can turn that unfriendly thug into a friend, just as if we've charmed him.

And since he simply talked him into it:
-He doesn't risk a hostile reaction from a failed manifestation.
-He won't see him turn hostile after seven hours.

In short, I don't see any reason why charm should be needed for any telepath above ~level 3.

If the counterargument is, "what if we need him to be a friend fast?", my response is that in such an instance of urgency a suggestion would be much more appropriate. And if you need him to be a friend longer, use diplomacy!
Fleem
05-30-07, 09:12 PM It also depends on how your GM chooses to have these powers and skills work. It seems everyone has a different idea of how charm, dominate, diplomacy and suggestion function.
AntiDjinn
05-30-07, 10:45 PM Because you might run into something that is immune or highly resistant to compulsions but not to charms. For example, if you are up against another psion who has Schism up he gets a second save vs. any compulsions you might use, but not vs. charms. Also, the person you Dominate and force to do awful things is not going to think very highly of you when the power wears off, while a charmed person, assuming you treat him well and don't use the power to take advantage of him, might remain on good terms with you. The capable telepath has both subtle and overt mental influence powers in his repertoire.
Slagger the Chuul
05-31-07, 03:41 AM In your example you've noted the character not using psionic dominate when he or she has access to it, so let's assume the telepath is level 7. By then, the telepath's diplomacy is already at 19. In the course of just two minutes (like you've said, it's going to take a while to get there anyway, so he has the time), the telepath can turn that unfriendly thug into a friend, just as if we've charmed him.

And since he simply talked him into it:
-He doesn't risk a hostile reaction from a failed manifestation.
-He won't see him turn hostile after seven hours.

In short, I don't see any reason why charm should be needed for any telepath above ~level 3.

What if the target starts out hostile? He's not going to stand around while you chat to him to make him feel better, and the result of a Diplomacy check isn't certain to make him friendly at the lower levels. But sucker him with a quick psionic charm, and you can have him calm enough to help, or you can even use it in conjunction with Diplomacy to make him a friend through more conventional means.

One other thing that psionic charm has over psionic suggestion or Diplomacy is that it's not language-dependent, so you can use it to make just about anyone your friend.

Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control.
BloodyChariot
05-31-07, 06:32 AM What if the target starts out hostile? He's not going to stand around while you chat to him to make him feel better, and the result of a Diplomacy check isn't certain to make him friendly at the lower levels. But sucker him with a quick psionic charm, and you can have him calm enough to help, or you can even use it in conjunction with Diplomacy to make him a friend through more conventional means.

One other thing that psionic charm has over psionic suggestion or Diplomacy is that it's not language-dependent, so you can use it to make just about anyone your friend.

Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control.

I began writing a really long response until I realized at that point I was just being stubborn. You folks are right. :D
Slagger the Chuul
05-31-07, 09:33 AM I began writing a really long response until I realized at that point I was just being stubborn. You folks are right. :D

What, really? Alright, who used psionic charm?

:)
CrimsonDeath
05-31-07, 09:29 PM Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control.
Actually, Protection from Evil specifically calls out Enchantment (charm) effects as something it prevents, along with Enchantment (compulsion). Under magic/psionics transparency, I'd say it would be equally useful against Telepathy (charm) and Telepathy (compulsion) effects.
Slagger the Chuul
06-01-07, 03:31 AM Actually, Protection from Evil specifically calls out Enchantment (charm) effects as something it prevents, along with Enchantment (compulsion). Under magic/psionics transparency, I'd say it would be equally useful against Telepathy (charm) and Telepathy (compulsion) effects.

The wording is a little bit hazy (since it could potentially be saying that both charm and compulsion effects are only blocked when they allow ongoing control), but on close inspection, I'd have to agree.

The alternative is possible, but extremely unlikely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodyChariot 05-29-07, 12:15 PM	My question is simple: once a telepath has Dominate, does he need Charm or Suggestion anymore?
Rageheart 05-29-07, 12:30 PM	Hmm.... much like asking "Does a Mage need Magic missle after he gets Fireball?" Yes... cause somtimes Fireballing a lone kobold is overkill, and you may need that big spell later. just my .02 gp
skywyze 05-29-07, 12:47 PM	There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration." Edit: Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again. Lastly, a victim of dominate might look back on his actions when the spell ends and grow incredibly suspicious. Charm is a lot less... Obvious. I'd say use dominate for combat and charm for everything else. There are exceptions of course, but just in general.
BloodyChariot 05-29-07, 12:55 PM	There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration." No, dominate can also last for days (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm).
The_Ditto 05-29-07, 12:55 PM	There's one strength that charm has, that dominate lacks: Duration. Charms can last days, weeks or even months, but a dominate spell will only last "Concentration." ahem 4. If you spend 1 additional power point, this power’s duration is 1 hour rather than concentration. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power.s duration is 1 day rather than concentration. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power.s duration is 1 day per manifester level rather than concentration. :tiphat:
skywyze 05-29-07, 12:59 PM	I'm looking in my hardcopy book and I can't see that anywhere. I guess it must've been errataed or something. Either way, ignore that point.
BloodyChariot 05-29-07, 01:04 PM	...Edit: Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again. Why not use Diplomacy then? At level 10, I could easily get myself a +22 Diplomacy with even a charisma of +0. That costs no power points, does it not?
Rageheart 05-29-07, 01:05 PM	Another thing is that Charm only costs 1 single power point to use. That's just incredibly low! Rageheart said it first, but I think it bears stating over again. Sigged :tiphat:
skywyze 05-29-07, 01:08 PM	Why not use Diplomacy then? At level 10, I could easily get myself a +22 Diplomacy with even a charisma of +0. That costs no power points, does it not?Cause you can use Charm at level 1? Cause skill points are incredibly valuable? Because sometimes you need both diplomacy AND charm to pull the little stunt off? Lots of reasons, imo.;)
BloodyChariot 05-29-07, 01:13 PM	Cause you can use Charm at level 1? Cause skill points are incredibly valuable? Because sometimes you need both diplomacy AND charm to pull the little stunt off? Lots of reasons, imo.;) Good deal. I concede.
CrimsonDeath 05-29-07, 04:16 PM	Also, the Sense Motive DC to detect a Charmed ally is much higher than the DC to detect a Dominated ally, and I'm not sure there is a Sense Motive check to detect an ally under a Suggestion.
Psikerlord 05-29-07, 04:56 PM	Personally, I got rid of charm, and only have dominate. With the errata it lasts plenty long, you get multiple targets for extra 2 pp, and the DC is nice and high. Charm person was never any good in combat, but it was a nice out of combat "friend, please help us" power. My guy has very high diplomacy however, and the party can generally get help that way. In fact, often it's better than charm person, because no-one likes magic being used on them without their permission (ie: if they make their save, they're going to be upset!) You don't have that problem if you fail a diplomacy check. I have never used suggestion, so I can't comment on that.
The_Ditto 05-30-07, 07:44 AM	I'm looking in my hardcopy book and I can't see that anywhere. I guess it must've been errataed or something. Either way, ignore that point. Yeah, the errata has it .. the SRD appears to be updated with it as well (the quote I took was direct from the SRD ... ) :tiphat:
Slagger the Chuul 05-30-07, 08:13 AM	To elaborate on what skywyze mentioned, you might use psionic charm or psionic suggestion because you want to be subtle. Psionic dominate is the telepathic equivalent of a cannon; you can blast in the doors and annihilate everything, but it makes a lot of mess and leaves a trail a mile wide. For example, suppose you meet a low-level thug in the city and want him to take you to the local crime boss. You could use psionic dominate, but you'll end up needing to kill your little puppet to cover your tracks, unless you clean up afterwards with something like psionic modify memory (and if it takes a while to reach your destination, that could require multiple manifestations). If you use subtler methods, you could have that same thug lead you along happily so that he isn't left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot.
The_Ditto 05-30-07, 02:36 PM	left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot. :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh (sorry, you forgot the evil cackling laughter ... I filled it in for ya ... :P )
BloodyChariot 05-30-07, 03:28 PM	To elaborate on what skywyze mentioned, you might use psionic charm or psionic suggestion because you want to be subtle. Psionic dominate is the telepathic equivalent of a cannon; you can blast in the doors and annihilate everything, but it makes a lot of mess and leaves a trail a mile wide. For example, suppose you meet a low-level thug in the city and want him to take you to the local crime boss. You could use psionic dominate, but you'll end up needing to kill your little puppet to cover your tracks, unless you clean up afterwards with something like psionic modify memory (and if it takes a while to reach your destination, that could require multiple manifestations). If you use subtler methods, you could have that same thug lead you along happily so that he isn't left with troublesome thoughts about being crushed under your mental jackboot. But as I've already said, would it not be even more subtle to not use magic at all? In your example you've noted the character not using psionic dominate when he or she has access to it, so let's assume the telepath is level 7. By then, the telepath's diplomacy is already at 19. In the course of just two minutes (like you've said, it's going to take a while to get there anyway, so he has the time), the telepath can turn that unfriendly thug into a friend, just as if we've charmed him. And since he simply talked him into it: -He doesn't risk a hostile reaction from a failed manifestation. -He won't see him turn hostile after seven hours. In short, I don't see any reason why charm should be needed for any telepath above ~level 3. If the counterargument is, "what if we need him to be a friend fast?", my response is that in such an instance of urgency a suggestion would be much more appropriate. And if you need him to be a friend longer, use diplomacy!
Fleem 05-30-07, 09:12 PM	It also depends on how your GM chooses to have these powers and skills work. It seems everyone has a different idea of how charm, dominate, diplomacy and suggestion function.
AntiDjinn 05-30-07, 10:45 PM	Because you might run into something that is immune or highly resistant to compulsions but not to charms. For example, if you are up against another psion who has Schism up he gets a second save vs. any compulsions you might use, but not vs. charms. Also, the person you Dominate and force to do awful things is not going to think very highly of you when the power wears off, while a charmed person, assuming you treat him well and don't use the power to take advantage of him, might remain on good terms with you. The capable telepath has both subtle and overt mental influence powers in his repertoire.
Slagger the Chuul 05-31-07, 03:41 AM	In your example you've noted the character not using psionic dominate when he or she has access to it, so let's assume the telepath is level 7. By then, the telepath's diplomacy is already at 19. In the course of just two minutes (like you've said, it's going to take a while to get there anyway, so he has the time), the telepath can turn that unfriendly thug into a friend, just as if we've charmed him. And since he simply talked him into it: -He doesn't risk a hostile reaction from a failed manifestation. -He won't see him turn hostile after seven hours. In short, I don't see any reason why charm should be needed for any telepath above ~level 3. What if the target starts out hostile? He's not going to stand around while you chat to him to make him feel better, and the result of a Diplomacy check isn't certain to make him friendly at the lower levels. But sucker him with a quick psionic charm, and you can have him calm enough to help, or you can even use it in conjunction with Diplomacy to make him a friend through more conventional means. One other thing that psionic charm has over psionic suggestion or Diplomacy is that it's not language-dependent, so you can use it to make just about anyone your friend. Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control.
BloodyChariot 05-31-07, 06:32 AM	What if the target starts out hostile? He's not going to stand around while you chat to him to make him feel better, and the result of a Diplomacy check isn't certain to make him friendly at the lower levels. But sucker him with a quick psionic charm, and you can have him calm enough to help, or you can even use it in conjunction with Diplomacy to make him a friend through more conventional means. One other thing that psionic charm has over psionic suggestion or Diplomacy is that it's not language-dependent, so you can use it to make just about anyone your friend. Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control. I began writing a really long response until I realized at that point I was just being stubborn. You folks are right. :D
Slagger the Chuul 05-31-07, 09:33 AM	I began writing a really long response until I realized at that point I was just being stubborn. You folks are right. :D What, really? Alright, who used psionic charm? :)
CrimsonDeath 05-31-07, 09:29 PM	Lastly, psionic charm isn't blocked by protection from evil, or similar defenses that prevent mental control. Actually, Protection from Evil specifically calls out Enchantment (charm) effects as something it prevents, along with Enchantment (compulsion). Under magic/psionics transparency, I'd say it would be equally useful against Telepathy (charm) and Telepathy (compulsion) effects.
Slagger the Chuul 06-01-07, 03:31 AM	Actually, Protection from Evil specifically calls out Enchantment (charm) effects as something it prevents, along with Enchantment (compulsion). Under magic/psionics transparency, I'd say it would be equally useful against Telepathy (charm) and Telepathy (compulsion) effects. The wording is a little bit hazy (since it could potentially be saying that both charm and compulsion effects are only blocked when they allow ongoing control), but on close inspection, I'd have to agree. The alternative is possible, but extremely unlikely.