Post/Author/DateTime	Post
oyster 05-01-07, 01:20 PM	Hello all. My DM won't let me use the Extend Power on Temporal Acceleration to extend the number of apparent rounds. I recognize he's right to approve/disapprove what ever he likes, he is the DM after all, but I can't help getting bummed by it... the RAW supports this, as well as the Wizards CustServ guys... Considering the augment price on this power, the spell equivalent of 9th level lets the character have 1d4 rounds. For getting 4 rounds with the power requires a ML of at least 23!!! as opposed to (randomly) at level 17... True, the Caster can do it as many times per day as he memorized it and the manifester can do it unlimited number of times as long as he has PP, but that is also limited... I'm not looking for ways to convince him. I'm just interested on what you guys have to say... Thanks for putting up with my ranting...
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 02:23 PM	Actually, upon further reflection, I don't think Extending a Temporal Acceleration is legal. The duration is in "apparent rounds", just like Timestop. With Timestop, I'm pretty sure WotC has said you can't extend it, because the "real" duration is only 1 round. You can however Empower or Maximize it, but this isn't an option with Temporal Acceleration, due to the fixed number of "virtual rounds" you get out of it.
carnivore 05-01-07, 03:21 PM	however the feat does not differentiate between Aparent time and Duration...notice: EXTEND POWER [METAPSIONIC] You can manifest powers that last longer than normal. Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can manifest an extended power. An extended power lasts twice as long as normal. A power with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. the "Normal" duration is given in Apparent Time...as the Augment shows....so Extend Power should Give 2x Apparent Time notice: Temporal Acceleration Psychoportation Level: Psion/wilder 6 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round (in apparent time); see text Power Points: 11 You enter another time frame, speeding up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at normal speed. You are free to act for 1 round of apparent time. You can manifest powers, cast spells, move, or perform other types of actions, subject to the restrictions outlined below. While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers. This means you cannot target a creature with any attack or power. However, a power you manifest that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of your temporal acceleration has its normal effect on creatures in the area once this power ends. You can affect an unattended object but not an object held, carried, or worn by another creature. You are undetectable by any means while your temporal acceleration lasts. While under the effect of this power, you cannot enter an area protected by a null psionics field or by a power or spell that neutralizes high-level powers or spells. Normal and magical fire, cold, acid, and the like can still harm you. When your temporal acceleration expires, you resume acting during your current turn in the standard time frame. You are shaken for 1 round upon your return to the standard time frame. Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame). Manifesting this power is a swift action, like manifesting a quickened power, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened power per round. You cannot manifest this power when it isn’t your turn. Augment: For every 4 additional power points you spend, this power’s duration (in apparent time) increases by 1 round. :D
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 03:25 PM	I think the exact same arguments could be made for Extend Spell and Timestop. However, I am pretty sure that WotC specifically said Timestop can't be Extended, for the reasoning I mentioned. If that reasoning holds for the spell, it should also hold for the power. I can't find the quote where WotC ruled this way, so I could be remembering incorrectly, though. Extend Spell [Metamagic] Benefit An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level. Time Stop Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat. You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
carnivore 05-01-07, 03:33 PM	ill check the FAQ ....see if its in there.....otherwise it is down to the DM :D
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 03:54 PM	ill check the FAQ ....see if its in there.....otherwise it is down to the DM :DI searched it for "Timestop" and "Time Stop", and didn't see it.
Verenal 05-01-07, 03:57 PM	In 3.0 FAQ it says you can't persist time stop, because it's duration is effectively instantaneous. Since time stop is the same in both editions it can't be extended. If time stop can't be extended neither should Temporal Acceleration.
CrimsonDeath 05-01-07, 04:28 PM	I'm pretty sure the PHB errata says that Timestop has a duration of "instantaneous" and an effect of 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Haven't checked the XPH errata to see if Temporal Acceleration has similar errata, since my psion doesn't know Extend Power.
carnivore 05-01-07, 05:14 PM	notice: Time Stop Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat. You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop. the Duration of Time Stop is shown to be of some length...thus a Viable Target for Extend Spell.........Temporal Acceleration also has the Augment that extends the duration...thus making it an even better target for Extend power....i also found no mention in the FAQ or Errata :D
CrimsonDeath 05-01-07, 08:08 PM	Interesting. I just checked the FAQ and Errata, and I couldn't find anything regarding Time Stop either. So, why doesn't Persistent Time Stop work again?
Verenal 05-02-07, 08:30 AM	Here's why you can't persist or extend time stop. Assuming you are high enough level to cast persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells? You can't make time stop persistent. (It's duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.) This is a rule for 3.0, not 3.5. Here's the text for 3.0 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) version of time stop: Time Stop Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: The character Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time) This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but the character. In fact, the character speeds up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. The character is free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Energy and effects present can still harm the character. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the character's attacks and spells; however, the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells’ durations do not begin until the time stop is over.) The character cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but the character can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. The character is undetectable while time stop lasts. The character cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field, or by protection from chaos/evil/good/law, or by a magic circle spell, while under the effects of time stop. And here's the text for 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) version of time stop: Time Stop Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat. You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop. Now, these two versions are almost identical. Certainly their durations are identical. And since 3.0 time stop's duration is effectively instantaneous, so is the duration of 3.5 time stop.
CrimsonDeath 05-02-07, 03:28 PM	And since the duration of Temporal Acceleration is also measured in "apparent time", it would also be effectively instantaneous, meaning that it couldn't be Persisted-- or Extended, for that matter. Right?
PhaedrusXY 05-02-07, 05:59 PM	And since the duration of Temporal Acceleration is also measured in "apparent time", it would also be effectively instantaneous, meaning that it couldn't be Persisted-- or Extended, for that matter. Right?Right. I knew I'd seen that somewhere, but didn't think to check the old FAQs. I'm sure not everyone will accept this as "valid", even though this aspect of the spell hasn't changed at all since 3.0.
Verenal 05-03-07, 12:58 AM	Right. But for those who don't consider this valid should note that if time stop and temporal acceleration can be extended they can also be persisted. If they can be persisted you can regain your spells or power points while in apparent time, effectively gaining infinite spells/powers. Therefore game balance requires that time stop & temporal acceleration can't be extended or persisted.
CrimsonDeath 05-03-07, 03:00 AM	I don't think Temporal Acceleration can be Persisted anyway, unless there's a Persistent Power feat I haven't heard about. It doesn't seem to be in XPH or CPsi.
InkBlot 05-03-07, 02:46 PM	It's in Hyperconcious, a 3rd party book by Bruce Cordell. IIRC, a persisted power lasts as long as you are psionicaly focused, and you can only have one persisted power at a time (unless you somehow have more than one mind to focus).
Boondoggle 05-03-07, 11:47 PM	Frankly, I think both persistent power and persistent spell are broken. I think they should be a 6 pp/3 level adjustment that increases the duration ten-fold (and be allowed to stack w/ extend; 8 pp/4 levels and two feats for 20x duration). It would fix all the cheese of persistent uber-spell/power-with-1-round-per-level-duration. I also don't see any problem in extending either time stop or temporal acceleration, myself. The only reason for the prior ruling was thanks to the brokenness of persistent spell.
munin 05-04-07, 09:22 AM	Mechanically, the language of the Extend Power feat is imprecise and "apparent time" is not defined, so it's up to the DM. But purely from a balance perspective, if temporal acceleration can be extended through an augmentation listed in the power description (extra power points), then there's no real reason to forbid extending it with a metapsionic feat (extra power points plus expend psionic focus). The fact that a third-party feat allows you to gain a massive advantage at epic levels shouldn't be an argument against a balanced improvement at simply high levels. The way I see it, TA works not precisely by "speeding you up" ... it moves you into another temporary time frame for 1 round, like shifting to a coexistent plane with the flowing time trait (with a differential massively greater than usual). While on that coexistent "plane", you cannot interact with creatures or objects on the originating plane (the same way you cannot interact with the material plane from the ethereal plane), but you can buff yourself and set up effects to occur when the "plane" collapses (dumping ongoing effects back into the originating plane). Seen this way, it's easy to imagine how the duration can be extended. However, if you see it as actually speeding you up, then to get more rounds of apparent time, you'd have to speed yourself up to a higher speed, which Extend Power would not do.