Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BobbyJim 07-25-07, 07:19 PM	Okay, I've heard that the Divine Mind sucks, among other things in the Complete Psionic. But my question is this: Why? What specifically about the class makes it suck?
Tempest Stormwind 07-25-07, 07:45 PM	Nerfed paladin + nerfed marshal + weak manifesting mechanically. "I worship a god, and therefore I am psionic" flavor. These things together do not a good class make.
Noodles2375 07-25-07, 08:33 PM	Nerfed paladin + nerfed marshal + weak manifesting mechanically. Its really quite tough to put it better than that :) As stated above, the Divine Mind just doesn't have a niche to call his own. It seems like many other classes do his job better than him. There are parts of the DivM that I like, his auras, in particular his ability to passively buff, combined with some of the neat effects of the mantle auras are actually kind of neat. But they are assembled into this hodge-podge of a class who can't really manifest, can't really buff well, isn't a particularly effective warrior, and as TS pointed out, doesn't really even embody anything divine... It kind of sucks.
aotrscommander 07-26-07, 06:29 AM	I think the main problem with the Divine Mind is that it doesn't actually do anything at higher levels (like about beyond 5th where evryobody's abilities star to kick in). Frankly, the flavour lack thereof matters frak all if there's a decent set of mechancis to re-interpret. Sadly the Divine Mind hasn't really got anything going for it. The casting progression is poor (though arguably, with the latest Mind's Eye, you could at least exapnd the mantles a bit). It has full BAB and high hit points, but really, you choice of what to do at higher levels is Change Aura (and you probably won't be wanting to do that much)/Full Attack (but without any of the melee classes secondary abilities to back it up; no bonus feats, no smite/favoured enemy/weapon style/rage+DR etc) or manifest from a very small psioinic pool. Even the expanded class features from Mind's Eye failed to make it any better. I found when I generated one for my lastest game, I ended up giving it a couple of Martial Study feats just to give it some offensive kick. Personally, I think the Divine Mind is in need of some help, in the Sublime Marshal/Re-Balanced Paladin/(Uprated Swashbuckler!) sort of way; probably a good start being giving it some bonus combat feats so at least it can make a reasonable contribution in what appears to be it's primary role as combatant.
Fafnir 07-26-07, 07:22 AM	It has full BAB Not even that.
aotrscommander 07-26-07, 07:50 AM	Not even that. No, it doesn't does it? Guh. Where'd I get that from? I even looking at the stats of the aforementioned Divine Mind and that's not got full BAB, so where the frell did I get that from?! So, maybe that's another solution; seeing as it's a sort of mental Paladin (*insert joke here*), it probably should have full BAB (seeing as it's got probably less than half 'casting') on top of some bonus feats. (You could give it more manifesting insetad, but I think it being a tank makes more sense given the whole 'aura' thing, since it makes it more different from the Ardent and psionics doesn't have a full BAB class front-liner.)
Sysane 07-26-07, 08:36 AM	The class would be salvageable if its aura radius was larger, had full BAB progression, and had no connection to deities whats so ever.
BobbyJim 07-26-07, 08:56 AM	Thank you for your replies. I had told my DM that the divine mind sucked, he asked me why, and I couldn't come up with an answer. Right now, I'm thinking of making a fix of the class.
princeofcincinnati 07-26-07, 10:42 AM	question: why would the god of magic have divine minds? it's just wrong.
DocSpartan 07-26-07, 07:37 PM	I personally think the class is salvageable. From a mechanical point of view any number of tweaks can increase it's viability as a desirable class. To me the biggest hit is the 4 level wait for manifesting. My version of the class gains Powers and Power Points from level one on a similar schedule as the Psychic Warrior. From a conceptual standpoint I've reinvisioned the Divine Mind into the Psychic Zealot. Instead of a god bestowing psionics onto the character; the characters unshakeable belief in their chosen god's doctrine allows them to tap into their own previously untapped psionic potential. Note that psychic Zealots do not have to be accociated with a church and indeed depending on how the Zealot intreprets the doctrine of his god he may be at odds with the actual clergy. So why does a Zealot lose power if he changes his alignment or outright breaks the tennets of his faith? It's a simple matter of Psychosomatics. The character's belief is such that he will actually render himself powerless if he grossly violates the ethics of his deity. Well, that's my 2 cents anyways.
princeofcincinnati 07-26-07, 08:20 PM	I personally think the class is salvageable. From a mechanical point of view any number of tweaks can increase it's viability as a desirable class. To me the biggest hit is the 4 level wait for manifesting. My version of the class gains Powers and Power Points from level one on a similar schedule as the Psychic Warrior. From a conceptual standpoint I've reinvisioned the Divine Mind into the Psychic Zealot. Instead of a god bestowing psionics onto the character; the characters unshakeable belief in their chosen god's doctrine allows them to tap into their own previously untapped psionic potential. Note that psychic Zealots do not have to be accociated with a church and indeed depending on how the Zealot intreprets the doctrine of his god he may be at odds with the actual clergy. So why does a Zealot lose power if he changes his alignment or outright breaks the tennets of his faith? It's a simple matter of Psychosomatics. The character's belief is such that he will actually render himself powerless if he grossly violates the ethics of his deity. Well, that's my 2 cents anyways. I like that explaination.
awaken_D_M_golem 07-26-07, 08:27 PM	With the addition of the Expanded Classes IV material, the Divine Mind gets somewhat interesting. The Ectopic Ally eventually is the equivalent of 10 uses * 17 powerpoints = 170 pp. And that gets an Ectopic Form (functionally) for free. And it gets to use it as a Standard Action. Making the Divine Mind the best Astral Construct using class. Further, the Divine Mind can stick Boost Construct feat onto it's ACs. And quicken spell-like ability. Not bad. Not great. Especially at higher levels. Now, over-all, it doesn't have the breadth of choices available to any other class. But it is vaguely competative, and sort-of optimizable. Stick lots of thingies into the aura.
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 06:27 AM	With the addition of the Expanded Classes IV material, the Divine Mind gets somewhat interesting. The Ectopic Ally eventually is the equivalent of 10 uses * 17 powerpoints = 170 pp. And that gets an Ectopic Form (functionally) for free. And it gets to use it as a Standard Action. Making the Divine Mind the best Astral Construct using class. Further, the Divine Mind can stick Boost Construct feat onto it's ACs. And quicken spell-like ability. Not bad. Not great. Especially at higher levels. Now, over-all, it doesn't have the breadth of choices available to any other class. But it is vaguely competative, and sort-of optimizable. Stick lots of thingies into the aura. I was under the impression that Ectopic Form feats were considered pretty bad in general, so I thought Ectopic Ally was the least useful of the three. (At least Sytgian Path let you have another ability to contribute.) I also thought that it was a bit rich, making the Divine Mind wait more levels for thier own primary class feature (the auras) in exchange for a once-a-day ability a Psion gets several times per day at level 1.
CrimsonDeath 07-27-07, 07:02 AM	The bad thing about the Ectopic Forms is that, at a fairly low manifester level, it's possible to duplicate all the abilities of most of the Ectopic constructs with a normal Astral Construct, with menu choices left over. The exception is Anathamic Carapace, since its explosive ability doesn't exist as a menu choice, but its signature ability is very wasteful of PP. Meanwhile, since the Ectopic Form feats completely replace the menu choices of an Astral Construct, I understand that you gain no benefit from the Boost Construct feat if you're using an Ectopic construct. The Ectopic Ally is even worse because the Divine Mind manifesting it doesn't even get one appropriate to his manifester level. So, he gets an exceptionally weak version of an exceptionally weak form of an Astral Construct, once per day.
BobbyJim 07-27-07, 09:34 AM	Hey, DocSpartan, where can I find the Psychic Zealot?
kyeudo 07-27-07, 10:46 AM	Okay, I've heard that the Divine Mind sucks, among other things in the Complete Psionic. But my question is this: Why? What specifically about the class makes it suck? Tempest is, as usual, right about what makes the Divine Mind suck so bad. I did a fix a while ago that tried to make it actualy useful at higher levels and fix the flavor, but it went over like a lead baloon. Most people prefer the Wargeist fix for the Divine Mind.
awaken_D_M_golem 07-27-07, 04:16 PM	True, but ... 170 pp + 62 pp = twice what a Psy War gets. Half way to full "caster". PHB2 retraining of class features is helpful here. At 3rd level, retrain the 1st level 5' aura into Ectopic Ally. This allows for a (10-5)' aura at 3rd level. I think the aura is superior to EcA for levels 1 and 2, but 5' vs. 10' is inconsequencial at 3rd. A 10' aura with the +5' feat and Dilate Aura feat, at 3rd level, would be a 30' aura. Marshall is superior, and up two feats. May as well take EcA. Manifester Level bonus Power Points are tricky. Is it ML-4? Or ML from the class? Or ML from Ectopic Ally? I say class. It's simplist and most obvious. And a little bit of added juice that the other Psi-classes get. Does any body else see the Undead Turning as a source of Adapted DMM-Persist ?!
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 04:29 PM	Benefit: You can manifest the astral construct power as a psi-like ability once per day for every two levels. You may sacrifice an additional daily use to augment the power one level per use/day that is sacrificed. The power manifests at your class level. Emphasis mine. This is what bothers me about it. The only augmentation Astral Construct has in increasing the level. If it functions as per the rules of psi-like abilities, it shouldn't need (and actually can't be) augmented. When I first read it, I'd forgotten that Psi-like are supposed to be auto-augmented and so figured that meant unless you spent more than one daily use, you got it as level 1. I have the horrible feeling that might have been the intention (because I can't see how else you could make use of an augment otherwise.)
awaken_D_M_golem 07-27-07, 05:23 PM	re: the bolded stuff. I read that line a rather specific way. Normally, at 5th level, a Divine Mind could 3 times a day at 5pp equivalent, knock out an AC. Optionally, the same could 1 time a day at 5pp equivalent, and 1 time a day at 7pp equivalent (i.e. 1 use at 5pp + 1 use to augment 2pp). Seen this way, the Level 4 AC (the 7pp version) can get access to the Menu B items, and with Boost Construct feat, get a second Menu B thingy. An Ectopic Form'd Level 4 Astral Construct with 2 Menu B abilities, is pretty good stuff at 5th level. At 11th level, a DivM can pop out 5 level 6 ACs. Or 1 level 6 and 2 level 7s. With Boost Construct, those level 7s have 2 Menu C abilities. The Substitue Powers section in the Ardent entry, has a greater impact on the Divine Mind. It depends on how broadly you read it, and a little DM Fiat, but, hey the Divine Mind needs it.
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 06:10 PM	The Substitue Powers section in the Ardent entry, has a greater impact on the Divine Mind. It depends on how broadly you read it, and a little DM Fiat, but, hey the Divine Mind needs it. I thought that a much better tweak, myself.
DocSpartan 07-27-07, 07:17 PM	Hey, DocSpartan, where can I find the Psychic Zealot? I've never actually typed it out. It's all stuff just floating around in my head along with my other theoretical tweeks for my campaign world. Truth be told I'm not the best person for designing mechanics that are balanced but I do try :).
UCsimplyme 07-28-07, 09:45 PM	If a DM were willing to make some sort of adaptation to the Ordained Champion class, I think it would fit well with the Divine Mind. With the Turn Undead Substitution level ability of the DM, ordained champion grants the Divine Mind the ability to smite and this combined with a +16 BAB at 20 goes a long way to making melee viable. Similarly, if a DM were willing to adapt the War Domain spells to add as psionic powers (using rules from Secrets of Sarlona), this would also go a long way to making the Divine Mind viable with PrCing (quickened Divine Power for 7 PPs!) As the class stands now, it is just painful. I have tried to make a couple different builds but most are just ugly. By far one of the greatest PrCs available for the Divine Mind is the Sanctified Mind. I would check it out if you are wanting to build a Divine Mind.
calronmoonflower 07-28-07, 10:34 PM	From what I heard the divine mind was originally part of the ardent, but Wizards of the Coast cut away some of the abilities and made it into a separate class.