The Psionic Mindflayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Psionic Mindflayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kedami
06-24-07, 02:06 PM I wasn't sure whether to put this on the Monster board or here, but since it's about Psionics, I suppose this'll be fine.

Question 1: If a Mindflayer gain a level of Psion (Telepath), does that Mindflayer then manifest as a 10th level Psion (since it naturally manifests as a 9th level Psion (Telepath)) or gain 1st level powers?

Question 2: Is it possible for a Mindflayer (or any character for that matter) to take a level of Psion with a different discipline from a previous one? (My guess: no, but I have to check).
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-24-07, 02:41 PM I wasn't sure whether to put this on the Monster board or here, but since it's about Psionics, I suppose this'll be fine.

Question 1: If a Mindflayer gain a level of Psion (Telepath), does that Mindflayer then manifest as a 10th level Psion (since it naturally manifests as a 9th level Psion (Telepath)) or gain 1st level powers?
Yes, levels in spellcasting/manifesting classes stack with racial spellcasting/manifesting.

Question 2: Is it possible for a Mindflayer (or any character for that matter) to take a level of Psion with a different discipline from a previous one? (My guess: no, but I have to check).
Probably not. I think you could start over as a level 1 kineticist (or whatever) and take advantage of the larger power point pool, but an illithid primary manifester is already getting to be suboptimal. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it.
InkBlot
06-24-07, 03:48 PM No, you can't take levels in both Telepath and Kineticist. It states in the PHB that you can't take the same level in a class twice, even if it would give you new options. The example they give is a character taking the wizard class twice, specializing in a different school each time. It can't happen.
kyeudo
06-24-07, 04:31 PM For simplicity's sake, I'd go with InkBlot's ruling. If you want to get complex, I guess you could have an Illithid gain levels in Kinetiscist and just track the 2 classes seprately. The "Can't take levels in different versions of the same class" rule is just to prevent people from abusing the class features on Psion, Wizard, and Ranger.
InkBlot
06-24-07, 07:40 PM And Fighter! Could you imagine if that rule wasn't in place, and you could take the first level of Fighter over and over again? You have a new bonus feat every level! How overpowered!

...

I don't even know if I was being sarcastic.

Anyway, it would definately be overpowered for a Swordsage. Tons and tons of manuevers and stances known, but half-initiator level for your entire career. Wait... that doesn't sound so bad.
kyeudo
06-25-07, 12:46 AM Fighter 1 for 20 levels might make it worth taking. Swordsage levels stack for initiator levels, so you'd get ridiculous manuvers. The guy would be Master of the Nine 12 times over.
DM-Scott
06-25-07, 07:01 AM Odd random thought you guys just provoked in my mind.

Would taking levels in two different suptypes of the same class really be that beneficial under most circumstances? I mean, assuming that the two classes didn't stack for the purposes of choosing things such as caster/manifester levels?

Beyond getting a lot of bonus psionic feats (as a psion) or multiple familiars for wizards/sorcerers, I don't see how it would be terribly abusable...follow me on this idea for a moment.

Let's use psions as our first test dummies. Just to try and break the system, let's assume this psion has a nice big 18 INT. You begin your career as a Telepath (Psion) and net yourself a nice 2 base power points (+2 for Int) and a total of 4 power points. You get 1 bonus psionic feat, and 3 1st level psion powers. Manifester level 1st.

Now at 2nd level, you decide your Telepath is going to delve into the mysteries of metacreativity and becomes a Telepath 1 / Shaper 1. So let's look at the differinces between his solo and multi class versions.

Telepath 2 = 10 PP, 5 powers, ML 2, 1 Bonus Psionic Feat (access to telepathy discapline)
Telepath / Shaper - His PP increases by 2+2 (Int) for 4 just as 1st level, gains 3 1st level powers, and one bonus psionic feat, and has a manifester level of 1/1.

So at 2nd level, all this psion has achieved is learn 1 more power, access a different discapline, and gain a bonus psionic feat. He's 2 PP behind the single discapline psion, and only has a manifester level of 1 in each power, meaning the strength of most of his powers will be weaker than the alternative.

Now I can see uses for this, but I'm not sure exactly how earth-shatteringly amazing it would be. The biggest pros I can see here would be...

Has access to a discapline list of powers through items.
Could pick up a few 1st level "utility" powers which don't rely heavily on manifester level or augmenting to see a some use.
Access to another psionic feat which could be used to gain some sort of unforseen advantage.
Possibly could "cherry pick" for bonus psionic feats, or access to more powers through the use of magic/psionic items.

However, the drawbacks I see to this would be...

Each level you take in the subclass of your class would weaken your manifesting class by 1 manifester level.
It would also deny your character an amount of PP that would quickly become apparent as you rose in level compared to a focused psion.
You would end up with a pretty large number of low level powers but they would remain fairly weak, limited in number and in use without a strong manifesting level or the ability to properly augment your powers.

Hmmmm. This makes me curious indeed. It looks like a Psion would get more use out of this than a specialized wizard multiclass, if only for the bonus feat. But it makes me wonder how this would look in practice...

Elthadod Smeleouv
CN Human Shaper 2 / Egoist 2 / Telepath 2 / Psi Warrior 3
HD: 6d4+3d8+27+20 (75hp)
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8.
BAB: +5, Fort: +6, Ref +3, Will +12
Powers (PP: 30)
Shaper (ML 2)
--Astral Construct
--Minor Creation, Psionic
--Entangling Ectoplasm
--Grease, Psionic
--Detect Psionics
Egoist (ML 2)
--Thickin Skin
--Catfall
--Synesthete
--Skate
--Precognition, Defensive
--Precognition, Offensive
Telepath (ML 2)
--Charm, Psionic
--Mindlink
--Empathy
--Force Screen
--Know Direction & Location
Psychic Warrior (ML 3)
--Vigor
--Biofeedback
--Burst
Feats: Psionic Body, Speed of Thought, , Overchannel, Talented, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact

Elthadod was an impatient student at a school for psionic self improvement, and never decided on a path that he could easily focus upon and hone his skills. As a result he continually jumped from focus to focus, and picked up a wide range of impressive psionic talents. However his lack of focus meant he never learned how to completely control his power or even gain understanding of deeper levels of psionic power. Eventually he decided that perhaps the focused and rigorous discapline needed to walk the psion's path was just structured for his chaotic life...however he always liked swords, and figured that didn't need so much focus and inner contemplation. However he has become so accustomed to using his mind that he can't help but to not combine his psychic talents with his up and coming warrior skills. His psychic power is strong in less refined ways however, and it gives him an undeniable strength coursing through his body and a willpower that is almost unshakable.

Heheh, I think it may be abusable (especially the will save and Psionic Body + Psionic Feats) but I think it'd require some clever thinking on the part of the builder to not make it a handicap in a lot of situations.

Let's play around with this idea hypothetically.
Any thoughts on the idea of multi-subtyped peoples? :D

Note: This isn't intended to be serious, and is hypothetical. I wouldn't advise allowing this sort of thing in your games (or mine :P).
zuul88
06-25-07, 07:59 AM Note: This isn't intended to be serious, and is hypothetical. I wouldn't advise allowing this sort of thing in your games (or mine :P).

SRD
Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack.

Respect
Nathan
Fafnir
06-25-07, 09:18 AM All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack.

Respect
Nathan

Geez, calm down, would you? We know we can't - we're just testing the limits of the rules.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, say nothing at all. :nonono:
zuul88
06-25-07, 10:17 AM Excuse me, for jumping on that guy. I just got done writing a post with this really aggravating moron on a different thread(The title sums it up--This is aggravating. Check out that thread if you want some laughs.) and saw that and maybe I flipped out just a little. I will try to control my outbursts to those that are deserving of it.

Respect
Nathan
SlanderPanic
06-25-07, 11:05 AM Creatures with psionic powers are similar to creatures with racial spellcasting ability. They have the ability to manifest powers just as a member of a psionic character class can (and can activate psionic items accordingly).

Creatures with the ability to use powers are subject to the same rules for manifesting powers that characters are, but they are not actually members of a class and do not gain any class abilities unless otherwise specified.

Creatures with psionic powers generally emulate the manifesting ability of a particular psionic class. When such a creature takes levels in that same class, it can stack its innate psionic powers and its class power progression together.

Creatures with psionic powers that take levels in a class other than the one they emulate combine their two power point reserves into a single reserve, but they manifest powers from each psionic class separately.

I do believe that solves it. Remember, while one cannot take the same class twice, racial manifesting is not a class. An unbodied, for example, has racial manifesting equivalent to a 4th-level telepath. If it took levels in kineticist, the two manifesting abilities wouldn't stack. If it takes levels in telepath, on the other hand, it's just building on its natural abilities.
DM-Scott
06-25-07, 03:36 PM All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack.

Respect
Nathan

Ouch. Sorry man. I thought I made it clear that it was something you couldn't normally do. It was all hypothetical to see what something would look IF. Sort of like a badger with 80HD, even though its advancement only goes to 2HD.

Unlike the alternative psicrystal rules I've been working on and posted up on the boards (which is written to be an option in a campaign or something of a variant sort of rule), this is just a theoretical "what if you could" sort of deal.

Nobody should be carrying any ideas like this over to the character optimization boards. I wanted to see if a character like this was comparable to a character of equal level otherwise. Also...
SRD
Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

Yeah, I know this already. A common work around is Specialist 19 / Sorcerer 1 (thus gaining you the ability to cast prohibited spells through items). However, for the purposes of this silly idea the two subtypes would be considered seperate classes - so a Wizard (Abjurer) 1 / Wizard (Necromancer) would have spells banned on their respective spell lists and their spell lists would remain seperate.

But you are indeed correct. Please understand, again, that this isn't attempting to tell people that it's "ok" to do this in an actual game. If I made it seem that way I'm sorry. This was intended to be silly and a bit tongue in cheek. :P

And yeah, I know how it is dealing with dumb people, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. On a side note, again kudos on your post in the This is aggravaiting post (the one where you supplied all the rules and such). The presentation was odd, but the information was pretty solid. :cool:
zuul88
06-26-07, 01:39 AM You did not make it sound serious. I was just to serious. Again I apoligize for my undeserved outburst towards you. Thanks for the kudos.
Zuul88 the Thread-Locker!!!!

Respect
Nathan
DM-Scott
06-26-07, 07:26 AM Heh, t'is cool.
:)
Kedami
06-28-07, 08:09 AM Thanks for all the posts and now I'm actually interested in these subclass mixes. It makes for an interesting topic.

You would end up with a pretty large number of low level powers but they would remain fairly weak, limited in number and in use without a strong manifesting level or the ability to properly augment your powers.

There is a feat in the Complete Divine called Practised Spellcaster. If we changed it appropriately to Practised Manifester (if such a feat doesn't already exist), then that would get around that problem.
DrowBattlemind
06-28-07, 09:05 AM Yep, stacking the sub-classes is pretty ridiculous, which is why the designers came up with the Expanded Knowledge feat... so you wouldn't have to do that.

Oh, and kudos to SlanderPanic for finding that bit in the SRD! :thumbsup:
Manyfist
06-28-07, 01:31 PM How about it started to take levels in Erudite for more powers known, I could see a scholar of the Illithids with several levels of Erudite.
kyeudo
06-28-07, 04:17 PM There is a feat in the Complete Divine called Practised Spellcaster. If we changed it appropriately to Practised Manifester (if such a feat doesn't already exist), then that would get around that problem.

There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi.
yarethon
06-28-07, 05:00 PM I had the same doubt a few weeks back, when trying to make ann npc unbodied. Although i could manage to find the official answer, i decided to i]gnore that.
I was going to add shaper levesl to this npc, and instead of making him a virtual telepath and shaper at the same time, i've decided to remove the virtual telepath level and replace them with virtual shaper levels.... making him just a shaper.
Makes more sense to me.
Kedami
07-03-07, 06:17 AM There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi.

Hmm... I should look at that book more often then.
runestar
07-03-07, 06:27 AM There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi.
And also one of the more confusing ones.

Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not?
crizhII
07-03-07, 07:32 AM And also one of the more confusing ones.

Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not?

Supposed to?

Hard to say about as intended, but as written it does grant bonus power points, the ones you get for having a high stat, rather than the ones you get from class levels.
crizhII
07-03-07, 07:38 AM How about it started to take levels in Erudite for more powers known, I could see a scholar of the Illithids with several levels of Erudite.

You run into the same problem. Erudite is just a sub-class of Psion just like Shaper or Telepath.

I liked the idea of substituting the racial 'class levels' for one of the other sub-type of Psion. It makes sense that not all members of these species would follow the same path, such individuals might be rare or belong to off-shoot sects or clans.
Rageheart
07-03-07, 04:47 PM Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not?

Supposed to?

Hard to say about as intended, but as written it does grant bonus power points, the ones you get for having a high stat, rather than the ones you get from class levels.

Can't help myself.... See the Sig :D
crizhII
07-04-07, 12:07 PM Can't help myself.... See the Sig :D

LOL.

Support psionics in Pcgen?

God I wish somebody would.

Four days it took me to make Erudite work and Practiced Manifestor is still a hack because of the dumb way CASTERLEVEL works.

Now I'm about to shoot myself in the head 'cos I can't get the Arcane Disciple feat to work at all...

Funny, I stopped using it when WOTC forced them to stop distributing user-created .lst's, and after four (?) years of commercial activity the code-base blows worse now than it did then.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kedami 06-24-07, 02:06 PM	I wasn't sure whether to put this on the Monster board or here, but since it's about Psionics, I suppose this'll be fine. Question 1: If a Mindflayer gain a level of Psion (Telepath), does that Mindflayer then manifest as a 10th level Psion (since it naturally manifests as a 9th level Psion (Telepath)) or gain 1st level powers? Question 2: Is it possible for a Mindflayer (or any character for that matter) to take a level of Psion with a different discipline from a previous one? (My guess: no, but I have to check).
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-24-07, 02:41 PM	I wasn't sure whether to put this on the Monster board or here, but since it's about Psionics, I suppose this'll be fine. Question 1: If a Mindflayer gain a level of Psion (Telepath), does that Mindflayer then manifest as a 10th level Psion (since it naturally manifests as a 9th level Psion (Telepath)) or gain 1st level powers? Yes, levels in spellcasting/manifesting classes stack with racial spellcasting/manifesting. Question 2: Is it possible for a Mindflayer (or any character for that matter) to take a level of Psion with a different discipline from a previous one? (My guess: no, but I have to check). Probably not. I think you could start over as a level 1 kineticist (or whatever) and take advantage of the larger power point pool, but an illithid primary manifester is already getting to be suboptimal. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it.
InkBlot 06-24-07, 03:48 PM	No, you can't take levels in both Telepath and Kineticist. It states in the PHB that you can't take the same level in a class twice, even if it would give you new options. The example they give is a character taking the wizard class twice, specializing in a different school each time. It can't happen.
kyeudo 06-24-07, 04:31 PM	For simplicity's sake, I'd go with InkBlot's ruling. If you want to get complex, I guess you could have an Illithid gain levels in Kinetiscist and just track the 2 classes seprately. The "Can't take levels in different versions of the same class" rule is just to prevent people from abusing the class features on Psion, Wizard, and Ranger.
InkBlot 06-24-07, 07:40 PM	And Fighter! Could you imagine if that rule wasn't in place, and you could take the first level of Fighter over and over again? You have a new bonus feat every level! How overpowered! ... I don't even know if I was being sarcastic. Anyway, it would definately be overpowered for a Swordsage. Tons and tons of manuevers and stances known, but half-initiator level for your entire career. Wait... that doesn't sound so bad.
kyeudo 06-25-07, 12:46 AM	Fighter 1 for 20 levels might make it worth taking. Swordsage levels stack for initiator levels, so you'd get ridiculous manuvers. The guy would be Master of the Nine 12 times over.
DM-Scott 06-25-07, 07:01 AM	Odd random thought you guys just provoked in my mind. Would taking levels in two different suptypes of the same class really be that beneficial under most circumstances? I mean, assuming that the two classes didn't stack for the purposes of choosing things such as caster/manifester levels? Beyond getting a lot of bonus psionic feats (as a psion) or multiple familiars for wizards/sorcerers, I don't see how it would be terribly abusable...follow me on this idea for a moment. Let's use psions as our first test dummies. Just to try and break the system, let's assume this psion has a nice big 18 INT. You begin your career as a Telepath (Psion) and net yourself a nice 2 base power points (+2 for Int) and a total of 4 power points. You get 1 bonus psionic feat, and 3 1st level psion powers. Manifester level 1st. Now at 2nd level, you decide your Telepath is going to delve into the mysteries of metacreativity and becomes a Telepath 1 / Shaper 1. So let's look at the differinces between his solo and multi class versions. Telepath 2 = 10 PP, 5 powers, ML 2, 1 Bonus Psionic Feat (access to telepathy discapline) Telepath / Shaper - His PP increases by 2+2 (Int) for 4 just as 1st level, gains 3 1st level powers, and one bonus psionic feat, and has a manifester level of 1/1. So at 2nd level, all this psion has achieved is learn 1 more power, access a different discapline, and gain a bonus psionic feat. He's 2 PP behind the single discapline psion, and only has a manifester level of 1 in each power, meaning the strength of most of his powers will be weaker than the alternative. Now I can see uses for this, but I'm not sure exactly how earth-shatteringly amazing it would be. The biggest pros I can see here would be... Has access to a discapline list of powers through items. Could pick up a few 1st level "utility" powers which don't rely heavily on manifester level or augmenting to see a some use. Access to another psionic feat which could be used to gain some sort of unforseen advantage. Possibly could "cherry pick" for bonus psionic feats, or access to more powers through the use of magic/psionic items. However, the drawbacks I see to this would be... Each level you take in the subclass of your class would weaken your manifesting class by 1 manifester level. It would also deny your character an amount of PP that would quickly become apparent as you rose in level compared to a focused psion. You would end up with a pretty large number of low level powers but they would remain fairly weak, limited in number and in use without a strong manifesting level or the ability to properly augment your powers. Hmmmm. This makes me curious indeed. It looks like a Psion would get more use out of this than a specialized wizard multiclass, if only for the bonus feat. But it makes me wonder how this would look in practice... Elthadod Smeleouv CN Human Shaper 2 / Egoist 2 / Telepath 2 / Psi Warrior 3 HD: 6d4+3d8+27+20 (75hp) Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8. BAB: +5, Fort: +6, Ref +3, Will +12 Powers (PP: 30) Shaper (ML 2) --Astral Construct --Minor Creation, Psionic --Entangling Ectoplasm --Grease, Psionic --Detect Psionics Egoist (ML 2) --Thickin Skin --Catfall --Synesthete --Skate --Precognition, Defensive --Precognition, Offensive Telepath (ML 2) --Charm, Psionic --Mindlink --Empathy --Force Screen --Know Direction & Location Psychic Warrior (ML 3) --Vigor --Biofeedback --Burst Feats: Psionic Body, Speed of Thought, , Overchannel, Talented, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact Elthadod was an impatient student at a school for psionic self improvement, and never decided on a path that he could easily focus upon and hone his skills. As a result he continually jumped from focus to focus, and picked up a wide range of impressive psionic talents. However his lack of focus meant he never learned how to completely control his power or even gain understanding of deeper levels of psionic power. Eventually he decided that perhaps the focused and rigorous discapline needed to walk the psion's path was just structured for his chaotic life...however he always liked swords, and figured that didn't need so much focus and inner contemplation. However he has become so accustomed to using his mind that he can't help but to not combine his psychic talents with his up and coming warrior skills. His psychic power is strong in less refined ways however, and it gives him an undeniable strength coursing through his body and a willpower that is almost unshakable. Heheh, I think it may be abusable (especially the will save and Psionic Body + Psionic Feats) but I think it'd require some clever thinking on the part of the builder to not make it a handicap in a lot of situations. Let's play around with this idea hypothetically. Any thoughts on the idea of multi-subtyped peoples? :D Note: This isn't intended to be serious, and is hypothetical. I wouldn't advise allowing this sort of thing in your games (or mine :P).
zuul88 06-25-07, 07:59 AM	Note: This isn't intended to be serious, and is hypothetical. I wouldn't advise allowing this sort of thing in your games (or mine :P). SRD Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later. All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack. Respect Nathan
Fafnir 06-25-07, 09:18 AM	All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack. Respect Nathan Geez, calm down, would you? We know we can't - we're just testing the limits of the rules. If you don't have anything constructive to say, say nothing at all. :nonono:
zuul88 06-25-07, 10:17 AM	Excuse me, for jumping on that guy. I just got done writing a post with this really aggravating moron on a different thread(The title sums it up--This is aggravating. Check out that thread if you want some laughs.) and saw that and maybe I flipped out just a little. I will try to control my outbursts to those that are deserving of it. Respect Nathan
SlanderPanic 06-25-07, 11:05 AM	Creatures with psionic powers are similar to creatures with racial spellcasting ability. They have the ability to manifest powers just as a member of a psionic character class can (and can activate psionic items accordingly). Creatures with the ability to use powers are subject to the same rules for manifesting powers that characters are, but they are not actually members of a class and do not gain any class abilities unless otherwise specified. Creatures with psionic powers generally emulate the manifesting ability of a particular psionic class. When such a creature takes levels in that same class, it can stack its innate psionic powers and its class power progression together. Creatures with psionic powers that take levels in a class other than the one they emulate combine their two power point reserves into a single reserve, but they manifest powers from each psionic class separately. I do believe that solves it. Remember, while one cannot take the same class twice, racial manifesting is not a class. An unbodied, for example, has racial manifesting equivalent to a 4th-level telepath. If it took levels in kineticist, the two manifesting abilities wouldn't stack. If it takes levels in telepath, on the other hand, it's just building on its natural abilities.
DM-Scott 06-25-07, 03:36 PM	All Psions are all specialists. You really do not like or respect the rules at all. It is all in good fun, lets make up stuff that is totally against the rules and see how it "might" be abusable. It is when I have to deal with people like you that I aquire a belief in some kind of god that must love tormenting me. On a side note I think you are a really great person and am glad to have you on the psionics board. Running your mouth. Garbage spilling forth. Stealing IQ points into that vacuum you call a hatrack. Respect Nathan Ouch. Sorry man. I thought I made it clear that it was something you couldn't normally do. It was all hypothetical to see what something would look IF. Sort of like a badger with 80HD, even though its advancement only goes to 2HD. Unlike the alternative psicrystal rules I've been working on and posted up on the boards (which is written to be an option in a campaign or something of a variant sort of rule), this is just a theoretical "what if you could" sort of deal. Nobody should be carrying any ideas like this over to the character optimization boards. I wanted to see if a character like this was comparable to a character of equal level otherwise. Also... SRD Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later. Yeah, I know this already. A common work around is Specialist 19 / Sorcerer 1 (thus gaining you the ability to cast prohibited spells through items). However, for the purposes of this silly idea the two subtypes would be considered seperate classes - so a Wizard (Abjurer) 1 / Wizard (Necromancer) would have spells banned on their respective spell lists and their spell lists would remain seperate. But you are indeed correct. Please understand, again, that this isn't attempting to tell people that it's "ok" to do this in an actual game. If I made it seem that way I'm sorry. This was intended to be silly and a bit tongue in cheek. :P And yeah, I know how it is dealing with dumb people, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. On a side note, again kudos on your post in the This is aggravaiting post (the one where you supplied all the rules and such). The presentation was odd, but the information was pretty solid. :cool:
zuul88 06-26-07, 01:39 AM	You did not make it sound serious. I was just to serious. Again I apoligize for my undeserved outburst towards you. Thanks for the kudos. Zuul88 the Thread-Locker!!!! Respect Nathan
DM-Scott 06-26-07, 07:26 AM	Heh, t'is cool. :)
Kedami 06-28-07, 08:09 AM	Thanks for all the posts and now I'm actually interested in these subclass mixes. It makes for an interesting topic. You would end up with a pretty large number of low level powers but they would remain fairly weak, limited in number and in use without a strong manifesting level or the ability to properly augment your powers. There is a feat in the Complete Divine called Practised Spellcaster. If we changed it appropriately to Practised Manifester (if such a feat doesn't already exist), then that would get around that problem.
DrowBattlemind 06-28-07, 09:05 AM	Yep, stacking the sub-classes is pretty ridiculous, which is why the designers came up with the Expanded Knowledge feat... so you wouldn't have to do that. Oh, and kudos to SlanderPanic for finding that bit in the SRD! :thumbsup:
Manyfist 06-28-07, 01:31 PM	How about it started to take levels in Erudite for more powers known, I could see a scholar of the Illithids with several levels of Erudite.
kyeudo 06-28-07, 04:17 PM	There is a feat in the Complete Divine called Practised Spellcaster. If we changed it appropriately to Practised Manifester (if such a feat doesn't already exist), then that would get around that problem. There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi.
yarethon 06-28-07, 05:00 PM	I had the same doubt a few weeks back, when trying to make ann npc unbodied. Although i could manage to find the official answer, i decided to i]gnore that. I was going to add shaper levesl to this npc, and instead of making him a virtual telepath and shaper at the same time, i've decided to remove the virtual telepath level and replace them with virtual shaper levels.... making him just a shaper. Makes more sense to me.
Kedami 07-03-07, 06:17 AM	There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi. Hmm... I should look at that book more often then.
runestar 07-03-07, 06:27 AM	There is a Practiced Manifester feat. It's one of the few good feats that are in Comp Psi. And also one of the more confusing ones. Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not?
crizhII 07-03-07, 07:32 AM	And also one of the more confusing ones. Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not? Supposed to? Hard to say about as intended, but as written it does grant bonus power points, the ones you get for having a high stat, rather than the ones you get from class levels.
crizhII 07-03-07, 07:38 AM	How about it started to take levels in Erudite for more powers known, I could see a scholar of the Illithids with several levels of Erudite. You run into the same problem. Erudite is just a sub-class of Psion just like Shaper or Telepath. I liked the idea of substituting the racial 'class levels' for one of the other sub-type of Psion. It makes sense that not all members of these species would follow the same path, such individuals might be rare or belong to off-shoot sects or clans.
Rageheart 07-03-07, 04:47 PM	Someone refresh my memory - is it supposed to grant extra PP or not? Supposed to? Hard to say about as intended, but as written it does grant bonus power points, the ones you get for having a high stat, rather than the ones you get from class levels. Can't help myself.... See the Sig :D
crizhII 07-04-07, 12:07 PM	Can't help myself.... See the Sig :D LOL. Support psionics in Pcgen? God I wish somebody would. Four days it took me to make Erudite work and Practiced Manifestor is still a hack because of the dumb way CASTERLEVEL works. Now I'm about to shoot myself in the head 'cos I can't get the Arcane Disciple feat to work at all... Funny, I stopped using it when WOTC forced them to stop distributing user-created .lst's, and after four (?) years of commercial activity the code-base blows worse now than it did then.