Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metafictional 04-23-07, 08:57 PM	Basically, I have a player who thinks the XPH is awesome, and wants to try it out. My other players hate psionics, but eh, I think they could stand to learn a few things. It occured to me very quickly, however, that it's not fair for there to be only one Psionic character in the world. So I'm going to need Psionic NPC's, as well as Psionic items to be dropped into the campaign. My first attempt at using a Psionic adversary, however, a 6th level Dromite Wilder...um...yeah. See, as if the bookkeeping wasn't enough, such as deciding when to surge, or how to augment powers, it occured to me that I really could just blow all of her Power Points, since she was only going to last the one encounter. Problem: it has been pointed out, on numerous occasions, that the XPH is only balanced when spread out over 3-4 encounters. Now this is nothing new, NPC's tend to pretty much blow all kinds of power at once, since, after all, the chances of them surviving an encounter are slim. But the XPH classes seem to be a little better at optimizing for one encounter than, say, a Cleric. I could be wrong, but I thought I'd ask other people on whether or not they foresee problems just saying "eh, have the Psion/Wilder/Psi Warr use everything they got before they die." My main reason for keeping such a close eye on balance, of course, is my players. I'm attempting, with my one psionic player, to prove that the XPH is a perfectly fine resource for games. Obliterating them with a fully-augmented Energy Missile doesn't sound like a good way to go. : (
Nephlite 04-23-07, 09:13 PM	Basically, I have a player who thinks the XPH is awesome, and wants to try it out. My other players hate psionics, but eh, I think they could stand to learn a few things. It occured to me very quickly, however, that it's not fair for there to be only one Psionic character in the world. So I'm going to need Psionic NPC's, as well as Psionic items to be dropped into the campaign. My first attempt at using a Psionic adversary, however, a 6th level Dromite Wilder...um...yeah. See, as if the bookkeeping wasn't enough, such as deciding when to surge, or how to augment powers, it occured to me that I really could just blow all of her Power Points, since she was only going to last the one encounter. Problem: it has been pointed out, on numerous occasions, that the XPH is only balanced when spread out over 3-4 encounters. Now this is nothing new, NPC's tend to pretty much blow all kinds of power at once, since, after all, the chances of them surviving an encounter are slim. But the XPH classes seem to be a little better at optimizing for one encounter than, say, a Cleric. I could be wrong, but I thought I'd ask other people on whether or not they foresee problems just saying "eh, have the Psion/Wilder/Psi Warr use everything they got before they die." My main reason for keeping such a close eye on balance, of course, is my players. I'm attempting, with my one psionic player, to prove that the XPH is a perfectly fine resource for games. Obliterating them with a fully-augmented Energy Missile doesn't sound like a good way to go. : ( Um, according to Complete Psionics (the Psionic complete book) it is very metagaming for the enemy to know they are only a 1 shot. They should conserve their points in the event they survive. It sugggest only 50% at most an encounter. It makes more sense.
BadCatMan 04-23-07, 09:17 PM	In one of Complete Psionics' rare good ideas, the last page suggests giving the psionic NPC only half their power points. Basically, the NPC has used up a few power points on things earlier in the day. Also, it would be a good idea for him to conserve some for later, assuming he defeats the pesky adventurers. In short, play the NPC like a PC adventurer conserving spells/points. Of course, a nova on the brink of death is still a very good option. But even then, have them keep a few points aside for a planned escape afterwards, so they don't nova quite so much.
Metafictional 04-23-07, 09:35 PM	I missed that, and that certainly makes good sense. Half power points it is, thank you, I'll try that.
PhaedrusXY 04-23-07, 10:02 PM	If you're interested in somewhat "optimized" psionic villains, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9740146&postcount=335) are a couple CR 8 ones I posted.
Fromost the Grimm 04-23-07, 10:28 PM	In a word, 'yes'. In any situation, if any individual truly believes they are about to die, then they will be willing to expend any and/or all resources available so as not to. Sure, the CPsi has an addendum suggesting that, for balance purposes, enemy NPC's only use half their PP reserve before looking for the back door. Still, that's a rather broad, general, and boring maxim for a DM to adhere to. Let me ask you this: how would the psionics-totting PC in your campaign handle the situation? Are they likely to go nova, blowing everything in one, big, effervescent blaze of glory? Or are they more likely to preserve what resources they have? If you want balance, there it is - do unto your PC's what they do unto you. If your party Psion in nukin' everything you throw at him from orbit, then do the same. If they only give so much before looking to hold on to their reserves, then have your BBEG act to the same degree. There's nothing wrong with a BBEG going nova, or not going nova. Let your BBEG's persona decide this - if they're some deranged Priest of a Death Cult protecting their faction's Unholy Artifact, then not only are they prepared to go out with a zealous bang, but they'd actually want to do so. If the BBEG is some CE ogre Warlord of the Tribe Of Hairy Doom, with his next-in-line chaffing at the bit to usurp him for control of the clan at the first opportunity, then he's only ever gonna put out so far before hitting the reserves he knows he's gonna need to fight off any challengers to his leadership after the smoke settles. Let the nature of your BBEG decide how they do this; that way, you can help the situation by giving your PC's hints as to what to expect . . . for example, a few simple Gather Info checks in the local village is enough for your PCs to learn that the Death Cult's fervent followers are infamous for being willing to lay down their own lives to protect their artifact from the Forces of Good, giving them the heads-up the need to prepare for a lot of incoming firepower.
PhaedrusXY 04-23-07, 10:37 PM	There are perfectly believable, non-metagame reasons for a psionic NPC not to go Nova. Perhaps they have already used some of their power points for Scrying, in another fight, or something else for the day. Perhaps they are overly paranoid, and think that their own minions might turn on them, so they regularly spend X amount of power points every morning to re-dominate some of them, read their minds, etc. Also, it requires at least some minimal feats and power choices to really go Nova. If they don't have those, they can't really do it very well.
TikiMan 04-23-07, 10:53 PM	In addition to metagaming away 50% of the NPC's PP I'd also suggest doing something similar for the psionic character. If you don't throw/threaten a full 4 encounters (or equivelent) at the party then the psionic PCs will start throwing around way more PP in a combat then they should. Same can be said of any other caster type, but psionic characters do it a bit better. So if you normally throw CR=party level encounters at them, ask the psion to only use ~25% of his PP. If you generally throw higher CR encounters at the party, ask him to cap it at 50% (like the NPC's do). It's a bit of annoying metagaming, but it's not the psion's fault he was balanced based on the idea of 4/day. And as a side not, you don't really need to put any psionic items into the game. The most sought after items for a psionic character are the same as for anyone else; the big 6 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a). If your party Psion in nukin' everything you throw at him from orbit, then do the same. If they only give so much before looking to hold on to their reserves, then have your BBEG act to the same degree. Sadly, all this does is support the notion of psionics being overpowered. The rest of the party just sits on the sidelines and watches as the single PC and the NPC blast everything. If they had the ability to nova to the same degree it might be ok, but if the psionic PC blasts every monster before they can even get close it's going to ruin the fun for everyone, even/especially when the NPCs start doing the same. Oh, and if someone ever thought that they were going to lose a fight, wouldn't the logical reaction be to run away? Rampaging monsters with low mental stats may stay and fight to the death, but running away is usually so very easy for caster types. Even if it allows the players to foil your current plan it's still better then being dead.
Metafictional 04-23-07, 10:55 PM	~nods~ all valid points. I'm just wondering that, if I show the players the downside of Psionic balance, ie; every power is augmented as much as it can be, they'll get a bad idea of how it's supposed to work.
Bacris 04-23-07, 11:16 PM	There are perfectly believable, non-metagame reasons for a psionic NPC not to go Nova. Perhaps they have already used some of their power points for Scrying, in another fight, or something else for the day. Perhaps they are overly paranoid, and think that their own minions might turn on them, so they regularly spend X amount of power points every morning to re-dominate some of them, read their minds, etc. Also, it requires at least some minimal feats and power choices to really go Nova. If they don't have those, they can't really do it very well. This is pretty much what I was going to say :) ~nods~ all valid points. I'm just wondering that, if I show the players the downside of Psionic balance, ie; every power is augmented as much as it can be, they'll get a bad idea of how it's supposed to work. Why would the wilder max augment everything? Again, this is metagaming. An intelligent caster is going to use probes before just unleashing full-force. Spell-turning / redopsi is something any mid-level caster would be careful of.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-23-07, 11:16 PM	Basically, I have a player who thinks the XPH is awesome, and wants to try it out. My other players hate psionics, but eh, I think they could stand to learn a few things. Congratulations, you're open-minded! Welcome to the psionics boards! My first attempt at using a Psionic adversary, however, a 6th level Dromite Wilder...um...yeah. See, as if the bookkeeping wasn't enough, such as deciding when to surge, or how to augment powers, it occured to me that I really could just blow all of her Power Points, since she was only going to last the one encounter. Problem: it has been pointed out, on numerous occasions, that the XPH is only balanced when spread out over 3-4 encounters. Perfectly normal. Wizards do it all the time anyways, don't worry about it. Do remember to give the mage some cannon fodder or astral constructs to slow the party down, and as mentioned above these can put a dent in the character's power point pool. But the XPH classes seem to be a little better at optimizing for one encounter than, say, a Cleric. I could be wrong, but I thought I'd ask other people on whether or not they foresee problems just saying "eh, have the Psion/Wilder/Psi Warr use everything they got before they die." My main reason for keeping such a close eye on balance, of course, is my players. I'm attempting, with my one psionic player, to prove that the XPH is a perfectly fine resource for games. Obliterating them with a fully-augmented Energy Missile doesn't sound like a good way to go. : ( Ah, this is a fun one. See, with psionics it's very easy and obvious to optimize properly. However, it has been generally accepted that psionics at its best cannot match up to arcane and divine magic at its best. A well-optimized cleric or wizard will easily kill a psion with tricks like divine metamagic, illusions, and so on.
PhaedrusXY 04-23-07, 11:22 PM	~nods~ all valid points. I'm just wondering that, if I show the players the downside of Psionic balance, ie; every power is augmented as much as it can be, they'll get a bad idea of how it's supposed to work.If all you're doing is fully augmenting, then how is that different from a wizard NPC? Oh, they get to do it for free. That's how. If you're using Schism + Quicken Power + other things to grant extra actions, in order to allow your psion NPC to burn through their entire power point pool in a round or two, then you're going to get cries of "overpowered" from your PCs, and rightly so. You can do the same sorts of things with wizards, it is just a bit trickier to pull off. Clerics can just cast every spell they have on themselves as a buff before the fight, and then wade into battle like Sauron in the first Lord of the Rings movie.
Rusher 04-23-07, 11:35 PM	~nods~ all valid points. I'm just wondering that, if I show the players the downside of Psionic balance, ie; every power is augmented as much as it can be, they'll get a bad idea of how it's supposed to work. I would suggest letting them get a taste of psionics from the psion in the group first. If you are doing multiple encounters a day or multiple waves in a fight s/he will without a doubt unload too soon and be worthless for the "big" fight. Other times he will crush encounters beneath his mental spiked boot. Crack the psion with greater dispel magic and make the weakness of the psion evident. Your concern about having a psion unload on them can be answered just like the party knew they were going after a powerhouse wizard. Make sure they can plan ahead. If they charge blindly in against a wizard or psion they will have trouble. If they know going into the first few fights prepared they can also see exactly what a psion can do from the protection of antimagic globes or watch their spells get sucked into Damp Power/Energy Adaptation etc..
Metafictional 04-24-07, 12:26 AM	As to psionic items, I just thought it would be damn criminal not to include some of the neat things you can create with psionics. Plus, just as a Wizard -should- find premade scrolls and wands, the psionic -should- trip over Dorjes or the occasional Psicrown. I've noticed that there's more synergy with psionic items and psionic characters as well. Let's face it, who's better at using Wings of Flying? The Fighter or the Wizard? Neither! Despite being a magic user, magical items don't respond to the Wizard any better than they do for anyone else (well, let's not get into the Rogue/Bard/Artificer). But there's a few psionic items that really reward you for being psionic and using them. As far as metagame thinking, you're right, I should sit back and let the psionic character do most of the work. I should point out the Wilder encounter was in my previous game, and I used it against a non-psionic group, as a way to test a somewhat higher level psionic character than the current group. Personally, as neat as I think psionics are, I can tell it's not the class choice for me. I know traditional magic pretty well, but the options most powers have can be occasionally staggering, such as making it swift, upping it's power, or adding new functionality. Deciding on the fly which way to augment, or to augment at all, would drive me nuts quick, and I can't imagine juggling the Psion's list of powers. Of course, that means that I'm sort of glad I only have one psionic. Keeping track of what SHE can do is going to be enough of a headache. I'm not a control freak DM, but if a player surprises you with an ability they have, I've always thought it's your own fault. There is one thing that I'm curious about...is a Psionic item fundamentally different from a magical one? IE, is there some difference between a +1 -magical- dagger or a +1 -psionic- dagger? Even if it's just a flavor thing? Further, can a psionic add powers to a magical item? Or even crazier, could an item be made that uses powers and spells to create? Oh and one last question. The Rogue wants to know if he will be allowed to use UMD to activate Psionic items. I don't see any reason not to allow this, but I recall reading something about a Use Psionic Device skill....is this really a separate skill, and is it assumed to be on the Rogue's skill list?
TikiMan 04-24-07, 02:21 AM	As to psionic items, I just thought it would be damn criminal not to include some of the neat things you can create with psionics. It's not really critical for a game balance standpoint because, as I said, a psionic character is mostly going to want a +X weapon, +X armor, deflection, stat boosts, etc, and a magic version works just like a psionic version does. I suppose it's not really hard to include stuff like power stones and dorjes, but most of the time if a character wants something in a stone he'll just buy it. Then again, I'm not one for handing out many scrolls either because of how little use my players seem to get out of them (again, they just buy the ones they want). Psychoactive skins on the other hand are fun for the whole family. :D There is one thing that I'm curious about...is a Psionic item fundamentally different from a magical one? IE, is there some difference between a +1 -magical- dagger or a +1 -psionic- dagger? Even if it's just a flavor thing? Aside from who made it, no, there are absolutely no differences between a magic +1 and a psionic +1. The XPH states (on pg 161) that 'an enhancement bonus is treated the same way regardless of whether magic or psionics created it.' So you could have a +1 psionic dagger, then put a magic flaming ability on it, then put a psionic impact ability on it, etc. Pretty much the same applies to any other magic items (making an item that does bless 3/day plus mindlink 3/day) but be careful with how you price augmented powers (the rules are...complicated). And don't ever try to mix powers and spells in items like staffs; juggling charges and a PP pool will lead to either migraines due to figuring it out, or migraines due to its power being all wonky. Wondrous items, /day items, continuous and single use items should all be peachy though. Oh and one last question. The Rogue wants to know if he will be allowed to use UMD to activate Psionic items. I don't see any reason not to allow this, but I recall reading something about a Use Psionic Device skill....is this really a separate skill, and is it assumed to be on the Rogue's skill list? There is a UPD skill, but sadly there is no mention of it being on the Rogue skill list. Many on these forums, myself included, have allowed either UMD or UPD to work on any supernatural type device though, and so far no planets have esploded. I'd suggest you keep doing what you've been doing already and let it work. As far as metagame thinking, you're right, I should sit back and let the psionic character do most of the work. I should point out the Wilder encounter was in my previous game, and I used it against a non-psionic group, as a way to test a somewhat higher level psionic character than the current group. Personally, as neat as I think psionics are, I can tell it's not the class choice for me. I know traditional magic pretty well, but the options most powers have can be occasionally staggering, such as making it swift, upping it's power, or adding new functionality. Deciding on the fly which way to augment, or to augment at all, would drive me nuts quick, and I can't imagine juggling the Psion's list of powers. Of course, that means that I'm sort of glad I only have one psionic. Keeping track of what SHE can do is going to be enough of a headache. I'm not a control freak DM, but if a player surprises you with an ability they have, I've always thought it's your own fault. Learning any new system can be difficult, especially if you're trying to learn while DMing. I have to say though, I've introduced quite a few people, even some Psi-haters, to the 3.5 XPH and many find the system a bit easier to understand than vanician spell slots. Perhaps if you played a psionic character from the lower levels, slowly increasing the amount you have to worry about augmenting and powers known would help. So long as you allow your players the option of using psionic characters however, you've got our support and our gratitude. About making the character keep track thing, I've always been of the opinion that there's sort of a social contract between the players and the DM. The DM provides a decent challenge while not going into 'god mode' and the players don't do their darndest to make the DM go bald. While it is true that you should have an idea of what your players are capable of, it's also true that they shouldn't intentionally try to find abilities that infuriate the DM. I like playing Half-Giant characters who are immune to $&#*-person effects (because they're not a 'person' by magical standards :rolleyes: ). I know this often messes with things the DM wants to do, but I regularly warn them about it before the game starts. So long as both you and your player are cooperating and communicating about this sort of stuff it should be all good. Should any problems arise, I can already tell you there's a 90% chance you're just missing a rule somewhere.
Metafictional 04-24-07, 10:13 AM	Again, thanks for the input. I guess I shouldn't worry too much about this, but as a DM, I want to try and provide the best experience I can for my players. That having been said, I've looked over most of the posts on these Forums, and one thing still confuses me. Why do so many people hate psionics/think they are overpowered? I've read the Myth stickie, and sure, there's some goofy stuff in the XPH, but c'mon, compare that to Polymorph Any Object, Permanency or Wish (favorite spells of mine). Since some of my players feel the same, I'd love to understand where this point of view comes from.
Bacris 04-24-07, 10:48 AM	Mostly due to the imbalances caused by 2nd Edition / 3.0 psionics. 3.5 is the first version that is well-balanced. A lot of people have issue with letting go of the previous versions and giving the new version a fair shake.
TikiMan 04-24-07, 11:23 AM	90% of 'I hate psionics' arguments boil down to someone not following some rule somewhere. 1st edition characters 'randomly' getting all the best powers all the time is a common one. Many times the offending player was just plain cheating. I had a friend who was turned off to psionics because of 2ed metamorphosis abuse. When I pointed out that the guy was cheating and the rules stated as much (he was using the monsters casting abilities), it didn't seem to affect his opinion, but he did let me play psionic characters because he knew I wouldn't intentionally destroy the game. Even with that taken into mind though, it is a bit perplexing. When I recant tails of how my 2ed psion used Dimension Door to stick a red dragons head up it's own bum (the power never specifically stated where the two doorways had to be) and then the dragon practically rolled a 1 on its fort save and passed out people shake their heads and frown at psionics. But when I tell them about the time my 2nd level wizard instantly slayed a beholder with the Gaze Reflection spell, its all giggles and smiles. The world may never know. :ahem: I think they're just jealous because we don't have to do the hokey-poky any time we want to blow someone up. :ayyyy!: