The Psionic Tank: Psychic Warrior or Soulknife? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Psionic Tank: Psychic Warrior or Soulknife? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TarotWarrior
10-24-07, 04:38 PM I'm just wondering which of these two classes makes for a better meat-shield? If not one or the other, would multiclassing betwee nthe two work better?

Mind you I don't have alot of control over the growth of this soon-to-come character, it's going to be my thrallherd's... well, thrall, so I only get to pick class, race and gender I beleive.

My Psion needs a meat shield BAD, and I was hoping my thrall could lift some weight off my party's tank's shoulders. (Did that last sentence make any sense? Didn't think so :p)
chicgeek
10-24-07, 04:45 PM Er, definitely Psychic Warrior. I don't know what level you're starting at, but PW has tons of 1st level powers to beef up AC--and don't forget to throw in Vigor on top of all that. Mix in Psionic Body, and he'll be great for tanking. CP also has a great power for PW that allows him to teleport around the battlefield every round.

For a Soulknife, I think you'd have to go Combat Expertise and got Defending with your Mind Blade Enhancement, etc. Soulknife doesn't have a lot going for it in terms of defense.

EDIT: You didn't mention your Psion's powers, but you can pick a few like Energy Wall, Ectoplasmic Wall, etc that will put distance/barrier between you and your opponents.
TarotWarrior
10-24-07, 04:57 PM Well we're starting at lvl 1, but I'm only going to be hitting the thrallherd prestige class at lvl 6, so that means my thrall would be maximum a lvl 5 once he comes to me.

Do I as a player have any say on how my thrall progresses in levels even though it's the DM that 'plays' it though?

And thanks for the power suggestions, I'll look into that once I reach that stage in my Psion's career ;)
Ninja_Ferret
10-24-07, 05:15 PM I think a little of both would be good.

Though the Psi warrior gets better armor and has powers. and has some decent healing ones at higher levels.

The Soul knife can possably dish out a little bit more damage then the Psi warrior. If you want a ballance of both i would suggest multi classing it. 3 levels soul knife 2 levels psi warrior to start off. Then just alternating them from there.
CrimsonDeath
10-24-07, 05:37 PM Psychic Warrior is definitely the way to go here. Soulknives seem best suited to scouting, skirmishing, and ranged combat. If you want a Psionic character who can go toe-to-toe with the enemy and duke it out, the Psychic Warrior is the go-to guy.

Definitely do not multiclass between the two. It won't do much besides diluting the strengths of both classes without mitigating any weaknesses.

The Soul knife can possably dish out a little bit more damage then the Psi warrior.

If you could explain how, I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd love to hear it. The Psychic Warrior gets more feats, learns powers to enhance his combat abilities, and can buy or even call a weapon that's better than the one the Soulknife can create.
chicgeek
10-24-07, 05:51 PM Well, the only thing the Soulknife has over the Psychic Warrior is that the PW has to buff to be effective while the Soulknife can just tumble in and start hacking away.
Ninja_Ferret
10-24-07, 05:51 PM Lets see. Feats from the complete psionic would add about 2d8 extra damage + 2d8 more (minimum for one of the feats) Along with 1d10 for weapon and 4d6 for greater psionic weapon. They gain Enhancment bonuses onto their weapon along with extra abilities that Call weaponry doesnt provide.

But I know the psi warrior also get disapating weapon which in its self is nice.

Which is why i suggested a Soul knife/ psi warrior combo to get the most damage out of a character. You pick up powers like expand and disapating weapon along with precog offence to help you hit more often.

The 1 feat every 3 levels is another bonus.

But if you want something that just tanks and takes damage you would want a straight Psi warrior.
Fireclave
10-24-07, 06:07 PM For a tank, go Psywar all the way. The psywar's powers are great at mitigating damage. Or get the best of both worlds by having the psywar take the soulbound weapon alternate class option.

Feats from the complete psionic would add about 2d8 extra damage + 2d8 more (minimum for one of the feats)
What feats are these?
Ninja_Ferret
10-24-07, 06:30 PM Mind empowerment and Mind strike focus. Page 58 of the complete psionic

If you drop an opponent with your mind blade with psychic strike you empower it with an extra d8.

The way i have set up a character at 12 level I should be doing 120 points of damage max. But thats a Psi warrior/ Soul knife.

Edit I should have made it clear. the second +2d8 ment to be a minimum needed for psychic strike to get the feat. So all and all its 4d8+4d6+1d10+str and 1/2 (granted he has a minimum psi warrior level of 3.)
InkBlot
10-24-07, 08:57 PM If you have access to Tome Of Battle, go Crusader. Crusaders are the best tanks. Crusaders don't die. Crusader/Psywar multiclassing also works, but trades stamina for increased reach and peak damage.

Psychic Warrior beats out Soulknife in tanking due largely due to expansion. The increased reach allows the Psywar to create a bubble of safety. Feats like Stand Still and Improved Trip help obviously, but aren't strictly necessary (just killing the enemy works too).

After expansion, there's strength of my enemy. It's a simultaneous buff and debuff. It allows the Psywar to protect you better, while making the enemy is less able to hurt you.

The Psywar can grab Power Attack easily enough, and a big two-handed weapon (greatsword for damage, halberd for tricks, guisarme for reach, spiked chain if he has a feat to spare), so his damage output is higher and more consistent. Expansion makes everything about two-handers better, strength of my enemy feeds the str*1.5 damage, and every point of attack bonus he can nab can become two points of damage.
TheKeyofE
10-25-07, 02:44 AM and every point of attack bonus he can nab can become two points of damage.

Which is why Offensive Precognition is better than Offensive Prescience.

Also, re: Ninja Ferret, those feats aren't as powerful as you think. Mind Empowerment and Focused Mind Strike don't work together. Mind Empowerment automatically recharges your blade when you drop an enemy and adds +1d8, Focused Mind Strike gives you +1d8 when you expend your focus as part of a move action to recharge your blade. I can only see a VERY loose interpretation allowing them to stack (that is, expending your focus at the exact moment you drop somebody and Mind Empowerment recharges your blade).

But even if they do stack, that's still unlikely to happen more than once per battle (it will never happen if you only fight one enemy per battle). Also, Mind Empowerment has the prerequisite of Mind Cleave. That's two feats for a 1d8 bonus that may never happen. Focused Mind Strike is good for getting an extra 1d8 damage at the beginning of combat, but for usage during combat is strictly worse than Psionic Weapon, let alone Greater PW.

So three feats for a (situational) +2d8 damage once per battle? I'd rather just take PW, one feat for +2d6 once, then GPW, two feats for +4d6 once. Adding Psionic Meditation (which for a Soulknife would introduce MAD issues because of 13 Wis required) makes Psionic Weapon no longer once per battle.

Trying to get Mind Empowerment + Focused Mind Strike + GPW is five feats. Way too many for a single-class soulknife. Your level 12 soulknife/psychic warrior could do it, but his mindblade will be seriously gimped, weaker than any weapon he could just purchase on his own (six levels of soulknife gives a +2 equivalent weapon, 12 levels of soulknife gives a +5 equivalent weapon, a 12th level psywar should be able to afford at least a +3 weapon, if not +4).

Also, Dissolving Weapon requires psywar level 4, not 3.

I think you are seriously overvaluing those CPsi feats. I'm a total soulknife LOVER, but I recognize my favorite class is weak with few options. I cry myself to sleep every night because of it. :weep:

So bottom line, TarotWarrior, psychic warrior is strictly better in every sense than a soulknife for tanking, and multiclassing between the two is like mixing oil and water.

EDIT: I hope I didn't sound too harsh here. If I did, I apologize to Ninja Ferret.
PhaedrusXY
10-25-07, 01:27 PM Well, the only thing the Soulknife has over the Psychic Warrior is that the PW has to buff to be effective while the Soulknife can just tumble in and start hacking away.Even if both go into a fight unbuffed, the psiwarrior is still better. Psiwarriors have plenty of swift action powers, and tons of bonus feats. Soulknives have little that can't be reproduced by buying a decent weapon and/or taking a couple of feats. Greater Psionic Weapon + Psionic Mediation is almost as good as the Psychic Strike ability. Add in a Deep Crystal Weapon, and you're equal.

The only decent thing the Soulknife has that isn't easily reproduced is his Knife to the Soul ability. As much as I like the XPH, Soulknife and Wilder are two of the poorest designed classes in the game, IMO. Wilder mainly due to how Surge/Enervation scales.
chicgeek
10-25-07, 07:47 PM Eh, I was trying to think of something positive about the Soulknife--and I'll admit I was reaching. I, however, do love the flavor of the class and wish it were a little more formidable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TarotWarrior 10-24-07, 04:38 PM	I'm just wondering which of these two classes makes for a better meat-shield? If not one or the other, would multiclassing betwee nthe two work better? Mind you I don't have alot of control over the growth of this soon-to-come character, it's going to be my thrallherd's... well, thrall, so I only get to pick class, race and gender I beleive. My Psion needs a meat shield BAD, and I was hoping my thrall could lift some weight off my party's tank's shoulders. (Did that last sentence make any sense? Didn't think so :p)
chicgeek 10-24-07, 04:45 PM	Er, definitely Psychic Warrior. I don't know what level you're starting at, but PW has tons of 1st level powers to beef up AC--and don't forget to throw in Vigor on top of all that. Mix in Psionic Body, and he'll be great for tanking. CP also has a great power for PW that allows him to teleport around the battlefield every round. For a Soulknife, I think you'd have to go Combat Expertise and got Defending with your Mind Blade Enhancement, etc. Soulknife doesn't have a lot going for it in terms of defense. EDIT: You didn't mention your Psion's powers, but you can pick a few like Energy Wall, Ectoplasmic Wall, etc that will put distance/barrier between you and your opponents.
TarotWarrior 10-24-07, 04:57 PM	Well we're starting at lvl 1, but I'm only going to be hitting the thrallherd prestige class at lvl 6, so that means my thrall would be maximum a lvl 5 once he comes to me. Do I as a player have any say on how my thrall progresses in levels even though it's the DM that 'plays' it though? And thanks for the power suggestions, I'll look into that once I reach that stage in my Psion's career ;)
Ninja_Ferret 10-24-07, 05:15 PM	I think a little of both would be good. Though the Psi warrior gets better armor and has powers. and has some decent healing ones at higher levels. The Soul knife can possably dish out a little bit more damage then the Psi warrior. If you want a ballance of both i would suggest multi classing it. 3 levels soul knife 2 levels psi warrior to start off. Then just alternating them from there.
CrimsonDeath 10-24-07, 05:37 PM	Psychic Warrior is definitely the way to go here. Soulknives seem best suited to scouting, skirmishing, and ranged combat. If you want a Psionic character who can go toe-to-toe with the enemy and duke it out, the Psychic Warrior is the go-to guy. Definitely do not multiclass between the two. It won't do much besides diluting the strengths of both classes without mitigating any weaknesses. The Soul knife can possably dish out a little bit more damage then the Psi warrior. If you could explain how, I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd love to hear it. The Psychic Warrior gets more feats, learns powers to enhance his combat abilities, and can buy or even call a weapon that's better than the one the Soulknife can create.
chicgeek 10-24-07, 05:51 PM	Well, the only thing the Soulknife has over the Psychic Warrior is that the PW has to buff to be effective while the Soulknife can just tumble in and start hacking away.
Ninja_Ferret 10-24-07, 05:51 PM	Lets see. Feats from the complete psionic would add about 2d8 extra damage + 2d8 more (minimum for one of the feats) Along with 1d10 for weapon and 4d6 for greater psionic weapon. They gain Enhancment bonuses onto their weapon along with extra abilities that Call weaponry doesnt provide. But I know the psi warrior also get disapating weapon which in its self is nice. Which is why i suggested a Soul knife/ psi warrior combo to get the most damage out of a character. You pick up powers like expand and disapating weapon along with precog offence to help you hit more often. The 1 feat every 3 levels is another bonus. But if you want something that just tanks and takes damage you would want a straight Psi warrior.
Fireclave 10-24-07, 06:07 PM	For a tank, go Psywar all the way. The psywar's powers are great at mitigating damage. Or get the best of both worlds by having the psywar take the soulbound weapon alternate class option. Feats from the complete psionic would add about 2d8 extra damage + 2d8 more (minimum for one of the feats) What feats are these?
Ninja_Ferret 10-24-07, 06:30 PM	Mind empowerment and Mind strike focus. Page 58 of the complete psionic If you drop an opponent with your mind blade with psychic strike you empower it with an extra d8. The way i have set up a character at 12 level I should be doing 120 points of damage max. But thats a Psi warrior/ Soul knife. Edit I should have made it clear. the second +2d8 ment to be a minimum needed for psychic strike to get the feat. So all and all its 4d8+4d6+1d10+str and 1/2 (granted he has a minimum psi warrior level of 3.)
InkBlot 10-24-07, 08:57 PM	If you have access to Tome Of Battle, go Crusader. Crusaders are the best tanks. Crusaders don't die. Crusader/Psywar multiclassing also works, but trades stamina for increased reach and peak damage. Psychic Warrior beats out Soulknife in tanking due largely due to expansion. The increased reach allows the Psywar to create a bubble of safety. Feats like Stand Still and Improved Trip help obviously, but aren't strictly necessary (just killing the enemy works too). After expansion, there's strength of my enemy. It's a simultaneous buff and debuff. It allows the Psywar to protect you better, while making the enemy is less able to hurt you. The Psywar can grab Power Attack easily enough, and a big two-handed weapon (greatsword for damage, halberd for tricks, guisarme for reach, spiked chain if he has a feat to spare), so his damage output is higher and more consistent. Expansion makes everything about two-handers better, strength of my enemy feeds the str*1.5 damage, and every point of attack bonus he can nab can become two points of damage.
TheKeyofE 10-25-07, 02:44 AM	and every point of attack bonus he can nab can become two points of damage. Which is why Offensive Precognition is better than Offensive Prescience. Also, re: Ninja Ferret, those feats aren't as powerful as you think. Mind Empowerment and Focused Mind Strike don't work together. Mind Empowerment automatically recharges your blade when you drop an enemy and adds +1d8, Focused Mind Strike gives you +1d8 when you expend your focus as part of a move action to recharge your blade. I can only see a VERY loose interpretation allowing them to stack (that is, expending your focus at the exact moment you drop somebody and Mind Empowerment recharges your blade). But even if they do stack, that's still unlikely to happen more than once per battle (it will never happen if you only fight one enemy per battle). Also, Mind Empowerment has the prerequisite of Mind Cleave. That's two feats for a 1d8 bonus that may never happen. Focused Mind Strike is good for getting an extra 1d8 damage at the beginning of combat, but for usage during combat is strictly worse than Psionic Weapon, let alone Greater PW. So three feats for a (situational) +2d8 damage once per battle? I'd rather just take PW, one feat for +2d6 once, then GPW, two feats for +4d6 once. Adding Psionic Meditation (which for a Soulknife would introduce MAD issues because of 13 Wis required) makes Psionic Weapon no longer once per battle. Trying to get Mind Empowerment + Focused Mind Strike + GPW is five feats. Way too many for a single-class soulknife. Your level 12 soulknife/psychic warrior could do it, but his mindblade will be seriously gimped, weaker than any weapon he could just purchase on his own (six levels of soulknife gives a +2 equivalent weapon, 12 levels of soulknife gives a +5 equivalent weapon, a 12th level psywar should be able to afford at least a +3 weapon, if not +4). Also, Dissolving Weapon requires psywar level 4, not 3. I think you are seriously overvaluing those CPsi feats. I'm a total soulknife LOVER, but I recognize my favorite class is weak with few options. I cry myself to sleep every night because of it. :weep: So bottom line, TarotWarrior, psychic warrior is strictly better in every sense than a soulknife for tanking, and multiclassing between the two is like mixing oil and water. EDIT: I hope I didn't sound too harsh here. If I did, I apologize to Ninja Ferret.
PhaedrusXY 10-25-07, 01:27 PM	Well, the only thing the Soulknife has over the Psychic Warrior is that the PW has to buff to be effective while the Soulknife can just tumble in and start hacking away.Even if both go into a fight unbuffed, the psiwarrior is still better. Psiwarriors have plenty of swift action powers, and tons of bonus feats. Soulknives have little that can't be reproduced by buying a decent weapon and/or taking a couple of feats. Greater Psionic Weapon + Psionic Mediation is almost as good as the Psychic Strike ability. Add in a Deep Crystal Weapon, and you're equal. The only decent thing the Soulknife has that isn't easily reproduced is his Knife to the Soul ability. As much as I like the XPH, Soulknife and Wilder are two of the poorest designed classes in the game, IMO. Wilder mainly due to how Surge/Enervation scales.
chicgeek 10-25-07, 07:47 PM	Eh, I was trying to think of something positive about the Soulknife--and I'll admit I was reaching. I, however, do love the flavor of the class and wish it were a little more formidable.