The Thrallherd and believers [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Thrallherd and believers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endarrion
11-06-07, 09:09 PM I am currently playing a Psion (Telepath) 5/ Thrallherd 1 in a solo campaign. My Thrall is a 5th level Dwarven Warblade and is pimped out in PC level gear.

Again, this is a solo campaign, so I am the only player.

Now. The question is, what to do with my 5 believers? I originally wanted a rogue, 2 warriors to stand around the psion and guard him, a warrior to aid another with the dwarf, and a medic to do small heals. But they're all 1st level and very squishy. Should I just leave them at home or should I take them with me? We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot.

They didn't slow down combat or anything, but at 1st level they're so weak it's almost not worth it. The only one who did well was the aid another warrior. He really helped.

So what should I do with my believers?
Tedronai
11-06-07, 10:35 PM Any 1st level believers that you get should either be left behind, or stay well back from combat (I would suggest Adepts for the NPC healing goodness - they can rush in when a more valuable individual drops, heal them a bit, and rush back out)
cnahumck
11-06-07, 11:10 PM If you don't really care about them, let them die. You'll get more in 24 hours. It doesn't really matter what you do to them.
Enmarnacu
11-06-07, 11:21 PM We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot.
I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^

I say as long as you don't mind me killing them, let the believers join in. The bodies will make much difficult terrain.
nobodez_here
11-06-07, 11:56 PM I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^

I say as long as you don't mind me killing them, let the believers join in. The bodies will make much difficult terrain.

Fun Fact: Dead bodies do not create difficult terrain. It's just as easy to charge down an empty corridor as it is to charge down a corridor full of dead believers.

Also, for your believers, I recommend cheese. Omnicifers, Psionic Shot Warlocks, Expanding Half-Giant Psychic Warriors, Exploding Gnomes. Also, exploit the 900 gp NPC gear to your advantage. LEt them bring you Amulets of Vermin (monstrous scorpion), Healer's Belts, and Infinite Wands. Perhaps abuse some flaws for a 1st level Cleric with a Divine Metamagic Persistent Lesser Vigor. Use tactics (guys with armor, longspears and heavy shields in formation). Use ranged weapons (Shaper Snipers with Psionic Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow) and Minor Creation for Poison).

Here's the group I suggest:

Healer 1 (Max Cha, 13 Wisdom, Augment Healing, and the Healing Ritual Feat from PH2, you can eek out 6 to 7 points of healing from a Cure Minor Wounds)
Crusader 1 (Devoted Spirit/White Raven, this is your flank/aid another guy, max armor, good weapon, feats fairly open)
Warlock 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot. Get as much damage on each EB as possible, get Precise Shot if you can grab a flaw)
Shaper 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Precise Shot. Light Crossbow. Black Lotus Extract. Enjoy)
Bard 1 (Diplomancer, half-elf, with the right feats you can get a hefty diplomacy, plus some inspire courage, all those pluses add up)

The Bard, Warlock, and Psion are all back-tier combatants. the Healer stands behind the Dwarf, and the Crusader heals himself most of the time. Plus, if things go bad, all you have to do is run, as your thralls and believers will refresh after 24 hours.
InkBlot
11-07-07, 12:18 AM Psion 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Precise Shot. Light Crossbow. Black Lotus Extract. Enjoy)
I suggest a Shaper psion. Minor creation and astral construct, even at ML 1, are far too useful to pass up.

Also keep in mind that you can use the psion's powers as if they were your own, with only a moment of time and a couple psicraft checks. See page 64 of your Expanded Psionics Handbook for details. For this reason, don't be afraid to give your psion believer powers that don't work well at ML 1, or lots of personal buffs, and avoid overlapping with your own power list.

The above is written with the assumption that you'll be able to write the character sheets for your psion's believers. I know many DMs don't allow that, but even in that case you can still follow the above advice by spending a week or two in town searching for the closest match to your ideal believers.
PhaedrusXY
11-07-07, 01:39 AM This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763024) has tons of good ideas for what to do with followers/believers. Unfortunately, it's been archived...
CrimsonDeath
11-07-07, 04:36 AM Perhaps abuse some flaws for a 1st level Cleric with a Divine Metamagic Persistent Lesser Vigor.

This one doesn't work. Lesser Vigor has a range of Touch, which the FAQ claims is not an example of a "fixed" range. (I'm inclined to agree, since a Touch spell can be cast either on your square or an adjacent one.)
Endarrion
11-07-07, 12:00 PM Wow, thanks guys. Especially nobodez_here!

So the basic advice is to go all out with the believers. I figured the believes should be largely kept to NPC classes, but I suppose since it's a solo campaign there's no one to outshine, so I might as well do what I can with what I have. I'll see what I can do, but I just hope my DM is up for it. Really, since this is her first time DMing, the optimizing of the believers should be a boon since the CRs will match up a little better (as far as the wonky CR system can match up well, that is).

Thanks again everyone!
DracoPhoenix
11-07-07, 03:47 PM Well, not right now, but you can (according to Stronghold builders guide) build a fancy tavern for 4000g. (Bit more for the kitchen)

NPC Barstaff belivers and you have a front / home / free mundane supplies (food etc).

Or, a general store, craft (metalwork, carpentry etc) will go a long way to providing you with cheap mundane items (cost is 33% of retail)

Cleric or wizard with craft(alchemy) for the fancy items. Actually, get a few of these, so you can mass produce. See general store.

Form your own organisation (PHB2). Make it a trade one with the 200g/month (for a business org) income benefit to fund 1) you and 2) your alchemy store.
CrimsonDeath
11-07-07, 04:21 PM For some reason, you make the best profit for your investment by setting up your business in the middle of nowhere. I think there was a thread on it in the CO board; might have been archived by now.
DM-Scott
11-07-07, 11:43 PM Before any of the organization rules and business stuff introduced in the PHB2 and the DMG2, I had a character who from a low level invested a large portion of her treasure over into starting her "business", which essentially began with a small smithy. She had a 1st level NPC smith, who she set up with a building and supplied the tools and equipment, and he brought in about 7gp a week, which his pay came out of.

Eventually, she began expanding the size of the smithy and hiring more workers and people, etcetera. After a while she had a very large business empire which generated her hundreds of gold pieces per week.

This would work wonders with the leadership feat, or thrall-herd believers; like others have said. Fun stuff. :D
Sagetim
11-09-07, 08:08 PM I am currently playing a Psion (Telepath) 5/ Thrallherd 1 in a solo campaign. My Thrall is a 5th level Dwarven Warblade and is pimped out in PC level gear.

Again, this is a solo campaign, so I am the only player.

Now. The question is, what to do with my 5 believers? I originally wanted a rogue, 2 warriors to stand around the psion and guard him, a warrior to aid another with the dwarf, and a medic to do small heals. But they're all 1st level and very squishy. Should I just leave them at home or should I take them with me? We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot.

They didn't slow down combat or anything, but at 1st level they're so weak it's almost not worth it. The only one who did well was the aid another warrior. He really helped.

So what should I do with my believers?

use halfling rogues with swarm fighting. Then have them sneak up and swarm around enemies. If they surround a foe, they can get around +5 to +7 to hit on that foe. And sneak attacks. Even if it's just 1d6, slap a short sword on em and there ya go.

Alternatively, you could have 5 first level warriors with phalanx fighting. They could then band together into a small shield turtle and kill things as long as they're using light weapons (short sword) and a shield. Then it's all about keeping them together and praying that the +1 to reflex saves they get from phalanx fighting is enough to keep the enemy fireball from slaying them all in one go.

or, if you use halfling fighters, you can give them daggers and heavy steel shields. along with phalanx fighting and swarm fighting. Then you have them surround something and say 'they lock shields while swarm fighting'. Thus getting the group of tiny bastards a +5 to hit and AC.

and if you ever want to retire the character, have the combat only believers march to their doom and become the lunch of a dragon (to appease it). Then get a bunch of crafters and farm workers. Then use fabricate or greater fabricate to build a city in the middle of the forest...and settle down.
Moosh Nailo
11-10-07, 04:09 PM With the unlimited recharge of the herd, they are basically made to take with you. I'm sure you could talk with your DM into letting you choose what kind of characters you want, if you aren't allowed to write them up yourself.

Your Herder is looking for a group that can work well together, complement each other's abilities.Your thrallherd's desires should be more than enough to influence the psychic call.
DracoPhoenix
11-10-07, 06:06 PM With the unlimited recharge of the herd, they are basically made to take with you. I'm sure you could talk with your DM into letting you choose what kind of characters you want, if you aren't allowed to write them up yourself.

Especially since Race, class and alignment are the 3 explict things you can pick. Others you can ask your DM for but they can quite happily say no.

That said, some DMs give their players full creation rights on co-horts/followers etc.
JulesCARV
11-10-07, 07:20 PM Ideas for believers:

-A sage: a human or grey elf (preferably grey elf) expert with maximum intelligence, who takes any knowledge skills that aren't already well-covered in your party. (For instance, if you as thrallherd have good knowledge (psionics), there's a cleric with good knowledge (religion), and a rogue with good knowledge (local), your sage could max out the knowledges arcana, architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, geography, history, nature, nobility and royalty, and the planes. Since it's just you and a warblade, there are probably plenty of uncovered knowledges) Hidden talent (call to mind) might be a good feat.

-A diplomat -- as thrallherd, you're probably already decent at this. Still, if you don't have psionic tongues, or aren't putting many skillpoints into mundane diplomacy and related skills, get a half-elf expert with good intelligence and charisma. With a +1 int mod, at level one, she could have maxed diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and knowledge (nobility and royalty) (the last only really being relevant once she gets to level 2, when you have a thrallherd score of 13+), and still have 12 skill points left for twelve extra languages, along with common, elven, and one more bonus language, for fifteen languages. Next level, she knows 18 languages -- every language except druidic and one other. Maybe skill focus (diplomacy) as a feat.

-Healer -- not much of a hit-point restorer, but someone with a good heal skill, for when there's no neutralize poison spell or the like on hand and you need someone with a good heal check, or as an in-house doctor for an organization (hey, taking ten with his modifier gives a result of 20, enough to beat any listed disease, and that's without a healer's kit or casting guidance). Human adept with good wisdom (12 or 13), maxed heal, skill focus (heal), and self-sufficient, for a base modifier of +10.

Other applications are endless If your campaign tends to run around the fuzzy edges of the law, where you're neither total criminals who ignore it nor completely free of legal troubles, then a barrister might come in handy. If you can attract and aristocrat thall who's reasonably well-connected, he could plead your case to fellow toffs and generally act as a patron.
ninja1
11-13-07, 02:55 PM I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^ Endarrion, if you think about it, that was one less attack directed at you. Consider these guys as Ablative Armor.

You could have some carry around Tower Shields to block line of effect, or equip them all with Hats of Disguise to look exactly like you to confuse the enemy and make more Ablative Armor.
Endarrion
11-14-07, 05:19 PM Lol. Actually, it was an area effect power, I believe. The healer just failed her save.

Good idea though, I completely forgot about Tower Shields.
Lycanthromancer
11-15-07, 02:43 PM Except that you can target the shield to target the wielder. You have to set it up so that you're not wielding the shield for that to work. Unfortunately.

Which is stupid, but them's the rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 11-06-07, 09:09 PM	I am currently playing a Psion (Telepath) 5/ Thrallherd 1 in a solo campaign. My Thrall is a 5th level Dwarven Warblade and is pimped out in PC level gear. Again, this is a solo campaign, so I am the only player. Now. The question is, what to do with my 5 believers? I originally wanted a rogue, 2 warriors to stand around the psion and guard him, a warrior to aid another with the dwarf, and a medic to do small heals. But they're all 1st level and very squishy. Should I just leave them at home or should I take them with me? We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot. They didn't slow down combat or anything, but at 1st level they're so weak it's almost not worth it. The only one who did well was the aid another warrior. He really helped. So what should I do with my believers?
Tedronai 11-06-07, 10:35 PM	Any 1st level believers that you get should either be left behind, or stay well back from combat (I would suggest Adepts for the NPC healing goodness - they can rush in when a more valuable individual drops, heal them a bit, and rush back out)
cnahumck 11-06-07, 11:10 PM	If you don't really care about them, let them die. You'll get more in 24 hours. It doesn't really matter what you do to them.
Enmarnacu 11-06-07, 11:21 PM	We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot. I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^ I say as long as you don't mind me killing them, let the believers join in. The bodies will make much difficult terrain.
nobodez_here 11-06-07, 11:56 PM	I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^ I say as long as you don't mind me killing them, let the believers join in. The bodies will make much difficult terrain. Fun Fact: Dead bodies do not create difficult terrain. It's just as easy to charge down an empty corridor as it is to charge down a corridor full of dead believers. Also, for your believers, I recommend cheese. Omnicifers, Psionic Shot Warlocks, Expanding Half-Giant Psychic Warriors, Exploding Gnomes. Also, exploit the 900 gp NPC gear to your advantage. LEt them bring you Amulets of Vermin (monstrous scorpion), Healer's Belts, and Infinite Wands. Perhaps abuse some flaws for a 1st level Cleric with a Divine Metamagic Persistent Lesser Vigor. Use tactics (guys with armor, longspears and heavy shields in formation). Use ranged weapons (Shaper Snipers with Psionic Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow) and Minor Creation for Poison). Here's the group I suggest: Healer 1 (Max Cha, 13 Wisdom, Augment Healing, and the Healing Ritual Feat from PH2, you can eek out 6 to 7 points of healing from a Cure Minor Wounds) Crusader 1 (Devoted Spirit/White Raven, this is your flank/aid another guy, max armor, good weapon, feats fairly open) Warlock 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot. Get as much damage on each EB as possible, get Precise Shot if you can grab a flaw) Shaper 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Precise Shot. Light Crossbow. Black Lotus Extract. Enjoy) Bard 1 (Diplomancer, half-elf, with the right feats you can get a hefty diplomacy, plus some inspire courage, all those pluses add up) The Bard, Warlock, and Psion are all back-tier combatants. the Healer stands behind the Dwarf, and the Crusader heals himself most of the time. Plus, if things go bad, all you have to do is run, as your thralls and believers will refresh after 24 hours.
InkBlot 11-07-07, 12:18 AM	Psion 1 (Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Precise Shot. Light Crossbow. Black Lotus Extract. Enjoy) I suggest a Shaper psion. Minor creation and astral construct, even at ML 1, are far too useful to pass up. Also keep in mind that you can use the psion's powers as if they were your own, with only a moment of time and a couple psicraft checks. See page 64 of your Expanded Psionics Handbook for details. For this reason, don't be afraid to give your psion believer powers that don't work well at ML 1, or lots of personal buffs, and avoid overlapping with your own power list. The above is written with the assumption that you'll be able to write the character sheets for your psion's believers. I know many DMs don't allow that, but even in that case you can still follow the above advice by spending a week or two in town searching for the closest match to your ideal believers.
PhaedrusXY 11-07-07, 01:39 AM	This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763024) has tons of good ideas for what to do with followers/believers. Unfortunately, it's been archived...
CrimsonDeath 11-07-07, 04:36 AM	Perhaps abuse some flaws for a 1st level Cleric with a Divine Metamagic Persistent Lesser Vigor. This one doesn't work. Lesser Vigor has a range of Touch, which the FAQ claims is not an example of a "fixed" range. (I'm inclined to agree, since a Touch spell can be cast either on your square or an adjacent one.)
Endarrion 11-07-07, 12:00 PM	Wow, thanks guys. Especially nobodez_here! So the basic advice is to go all out with the believers. I figured the believes should be largely kept to NPC classes, but I suppose since it's a solo campaign there's no one to outshine, so I might as well do what I can with what I have. I'll see what I can do, but I just hope my DM is up for it. Really, since this is her first time DMing, the optimizing of the believers should be a boon since the CRs will match up a little better (as far as the wonky CR system can match up well, that is). Thanks again everyone!
DracoPhoenix 11-07-07, 03:47 PM	Well, not right now, but you can (according to Stronghold builders guide) build a fancy tavern for 4000g. (Bit more for the kitchen) NPC Barstaff belivers and you have a front / home / free mundane supplies (food etc). Or, a general store, craft (metalwork, carpentry etc) will go a long way to providing you with cheap mundane items (cost is 33% of retail) Cleric or wizard with craft(alchemy) for the fancy items. Actually, get a few of these, so you can mass produce. See general store. Form your own organisation (PHB2). Make it a trade one with the 200g/month (for a business org) income benefit to fund 1) you and 2) your alchemy store.
CrimsonDeath 11-07-07, 04:21 PM	For some reason, you make the best profit for your investment by setting up your business in the middle of nowhere. I think there was a thread on it in the CO board; might have been archived by now.
DM-Scott 11-07-07, 11:43 PM	Before any of the organization rules and business stuff introduced in the PHB2 and the DMG2, I had a character who from a low level invested a large portion of her treasure over into starting her "business", which essentially began with a small smithy. She had a 1st level NPC smith, who she set up with a building and supplied the tools and equipment, and he brought in about 7gp a week, which his pay came out of. Eventually, she began expanding the size of the smithy and hiring more workers and people, etcetera. After a while she had a very large business empire which generated her hundreds of gold pieces per week. This would work wonders with the leadership feat, or thrall-herd believers; like others have said. Fun stuff. :D
Sagetim 11-09-07, 08:08 PM	I am currently playing a Psion (Telepath) 5/ Thrallherd 1 in a solo campaign. My Thrall is a 5th level Dwarven Warblade and is pimped out in PC level gear. Again, this is a solo campaign, so I am the only player. Now. The question is, what to do with my 5 believers? I originally wanted a rogue, 2 warriors to stand around the psion and guard him, a warrior to aid another with the dwarf, and a medic to do small heals. But they're all 1st level and very squishy. Should I just leave them at home or should I take them with me? We've gone through one session so far and the medic was dropped to 0 in one hit because of a Mind Thrust from an Udoroot. They didn't slow down combat or anything, but at 1st level they're so weak it's almost not worth it. The only one who did well was the aid another warrior. He really helped. So what should I do with my believers? use halfling rogues with swarm fighting. Then have them sneak up and swarm around enemies. If they surround a foe, they can get around +5 to +7 to hit on that foe. And sneak attacks. Even if it's just 1d6, slap a short sword on em and there ya go. Alternatively, you could have 5 first level warriors with phalanx fighting. They could then band together into a small shield turtle and kill things as long as they're using light weapons (short sword) and a shield. Then it's all about keeping them together and praying that the +1 to reflex saves they get from phalanx fighting is enough to keep the enemy fireball from slaying them all in one go. or, if you use halfling fighters, you can give them daggers and heavy steel shields. along with phalanx fighting and swarm fighting. Then you have them surround something and say 'they lock shields while swarm fighting'. Thus getting the group of tiny bastards a +5 to hit and AC. and if you ever want to retire the character, have the combat only believers march to their doom and become the lunch of a dragon (to appease it). Then get a bunch of crafters and farm workers. Then use fabricate or greater fabricate to build a city in the middle of the forest...and settle down.
Moosh Nailo 11-10-07, 04:09 PM	With the unlimited recharge of the herd, they are basically made to take with you. I'm sure you could talk with your DM into letting you choose what kind of characters you want, if you aren't allowed to write them up yourself. Your Herder is looking for a group that can work well together, complement each other's abilities.Your thrallherd's desires should be more than enough to influence the psychic call.
DracoPhoenix 11-10-07, 06:06 PM	With the unlimited recharge of the herd, they are basically made to take with you. I'm sure you could talk with your DM into letting you choose what kind of characters you want, if you aren't allowed to write them up yourself. Especially since Race, class and alignment are the 3 explict things you can pick. Others you can ask your DM for but they can quite happily say no. That said, some DMs give their players full creation rights on co-horts/followers etc.
JulesCARV 11-10-07, 07:20 PM	Ideas for believers: -A sage: a human or grey elf (preferably grey elf) expert with maximum intelligence, who takes any knowledge skills that aren't already well-covered in your party. (For instance, if you as thrallherd have good knowledge (psionics), there's a cleric with good knowledge (religion), and a rogue with good knowledge (local), your sage could max out the knowledges arcana, architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, geography, history, nature, nobility and royalty, and the planes. Since it's just you and a warblade, there are probably plenty of uncovered knowledges) Hidden talent (call to mind) might be a good feat. -A diplomat -- as thrallherd, you're probably already decent at this. Still, if you don't have psionic tongues, or aren't putting many skillpoints into mundane diplomacy and related skills, get a half-elf expert with good intelligence and charisma. With a +1 int mod, at level one, she could have maxed diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and knowledge (nobility and royalty) (the last only really being relevant once she gets to level 2, when you have a thrallherd score of 13+), and still have 12 skill points left for twelve extra languages, along with common, elven, and one more bonus language, for fifteen languages. Next level, she knows 18 languages -- every language except druidic and one other. Maybe skill focus (diplomacy) as a feat. -Healer -- not much of a hit-point restorer, but someone with a good heal skill, for when there's no neutralize poison spell or the like on hand and you need someone with a good heal check, or as an in-house doctor for an organization (hey, taking ten with his modifier gives a result of 20, enough to beat any listed disease, and that's without a healer's kit or casting guidance). Human adept with good wisdom (12 or 13), maxed heal, skill focus (heal), and self-sufficient, for a base modifier of +10. Other applications are endless If your campaign tends to run around the fuzzy edges of the law, where you're neither total criminals who ignore it nor completely free of legal troubles, then a barrister might come in handy. If you can attract and aristocrat thall who's reasonably well-connected, he could plead your case to fellow toffs and generally act as a patron.
ninja1 11-13-07, 02:55 PM	I figure since I'm here I'll correct it. 'Twas an energy stun. ^.^ Endarrion, if you think about it, that was one less attack directed at you. Consider these guys as Ablative Armor. You could have some carry around Tower Shields to block line of effect, or equip them all with Hats of Disguise to look exactly like you to confuse the enemy and make more Ablative Armor.
Endarrion 11-14-07, 05:19 PM	Lol. Actually, it was an area effect power, I believe. The healer just failed her save. Good idea though, I completely forgot about Tower Shields.
Lycanthromancer 11-15-07, 02:43 PM	Except that you can target the shield to target the wielder. You have to set it up so that you're not wielding the shield for that to work. Unfortunately. Which is stupid, but them's the rules.