Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 07-14-07, 04:24 AM	Exactly what it says. The Wilder is not a popular class because it only gets 11 powers known by level 20 (Expanded Knowledge feats aside). Even Warlocks get it better. Thus, they are unwieldy. But are they actually less powerful for this or simply less useful? (For a reference, think 20th level PsyWar versus 20th level Wilder.)
BloodSpill 07-14-07, 04:52 AM	The wilder is like an Erudite, except with better BAB and can't change their powers known every day. Oh, and a Wilder can't get into the Wilder prestige class, Archaic Initiate. So..what are you going to do with that extra BAB, exactly?
Manyfist 07-14-07, 06:20 AM	Wilder isn't popular since it has: A.) Limited powers (11 at 20) B.) Only saving grace works against it everytime the wilder gets a better version. C.) The only good PrC for a Wilder is really for a Overchannel psion.
runestar 07-14-07, 06:22 AM	The web enhancement on the wotc site lets you swap out volatile mind for expanded knowledge feats.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-14-07, 05:36 PM	The web enhancement on the wotc site lets you swap out volatile mind for expanded knowledge feats. Yep. I'd just use this to beef up the wilder a bit, and make it worth using. Without this ability, they just don't have enough power as primary manifesters to make them worth taking over the psion. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a
Tectorman 07-14-07, 08:42 PM	The web enhancement on the wotc site lets you swap out volatile mind for expanded knowledge feats. My thoughts exactly, but what I'm getting at is this: Wilders get 4 Volatile Mind enhancements that can be switched over for 4 Expanded Knowledge feats. This brings their total powers known number to 15 at level 20. So I was thinking "What if I take every level in the Wilder class that doesn't get a new power known (a total of 9 levels) or a bump up in their Volatile Mind ability (that's 4, so we're down to 5 levels) and add another power known? Then they'd have 16 powers known at level 20 or 20 powers known at level 20 with the EK variant. "Well, this would make them more playable, sure, but I'd be adding 5 more powers known at no cost. If they're unwieldy and weak, then that's okay, but if not then I need to come up with something else." That's what I'm getting at.
ShinoAburame 07-15-07, 02:58 AM	I just rule zeroed wilders have all good saving throws, like monks. It's not really relative to psionics, but it gives them something.
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 03:28 PM	Would it help if a failed Surge drained PP equal to the PP you were already spending on the power? For example, if you manifest a level 1 power, paying 1PP and surging for 6, you have a 30% chance of enervation and losing an additional 1PP.
Tinari 07-15-07, 04:20 PM	Would it help if a failed Surge drained PP equal to the PP you were already spending on the power? For example, if you manifest a level 1 power, paying 1PP and surging for 6, you have a 30% chance of enervation and losing an additional 1PP. That would turn the Wilder into a massive endurance beast, if they wanted. There should be a minimum PP loss from enervation equal to their wild surge, thus a Wilder Surge 6 will cause a loss of 6 PP regardless of PP spent.
Nom 07-15-07, 06:23 PM	The wilder is actually a very powerful Psi class, but also extremely limited. The Wild Surge progression alone is worth more than the Psions five bonus feats. The main drawback of Wild Surge is that it doesn't play nicely with PrCs. While the Wilder could certainly do with more choice of powers (especially at very low levels), if you add too many more then the Wilder eclipses the Psion.
Toxic_Shaman 07-15-07, 06:27 PM	I disagree that its bad to take prestige classes with the Wilder. When I play a Wilder I like to get out after I get Wild Surge +2. The more you surge, the more likely you will suffer enervation, and since the PP loss is based on your Wilder level not your manifester level, in some ways you are much better off going into a Prestige Class so that you don't take a huge power point hit when you do miss the enervation roll.
Rhonin the Big 07-15-07, 10:58 PM	I just rule zeroed wilders have all good saving throws, like monks. It's not really relative to psionics, but it gives them something. Giving the most powerful psionic class in the XPH all good saves is grounds for an implosion. Wilder isn't popular since it has: A.) Limited powers (11 at 20) B.) Only saving grace works against it everytime the wilder gets a better version. C.) The only good PrC for a Wilder is really for a Overchannel psion. I don't see why, a properly built wilder has few to no weaknesses. A) Mind's Eye lets them trade their worst class ability for bonus EK and Elude Touch for a mantle, so that's 5 extra powers and access to 9 extra powers through dorjes B) Enervation Endurance halves the power point loss from enervation and Postpone Enervation lets you postpone the effects until you can negate the daze effect. C) Take Education at 1st level and you can get into Anarchic Initiate as a 5th level wilder. Even without AI wild surge caps out at 30% chance to lose 10 power points and be dazed for 1 round 3 rounds later when you can either finish the encounter or manifest temporal acceleration should the battle rage on.
Nom 07-16-07, 02:17 AM	I disagree that its bad to take prestige classes with the Wilder. When I play a Wilder I like to get out after I get Wild Surge +2. The more you surge, the more likely you will suffer enervation, and since the PP loss is based on your Wilder level not your manifester level, in some ways you are much better off going into a Prestige Class so that you don't take a huge power point hit when you do miss the enervation roll.Well, you sacrifice your ability to pull out something really big, but it's a valid issue. The problem that all psionic classes except the psion suffer from with PrCs granting +1 level in manifesting class is that most PrCs assume a psion progression. Thus, a psion multiclassing into PrC X and a wilder doing the same get exactly the same abilities, except that one gets the weaker wilder progression and loses the larger skill list, HD and specials.
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 02:57 AM	A) Mind's Eye lets them trade their worst class ability for bonus EK and Elude Touch for a mantle, so that's 5 extra powers and access to 9 extra powers through dorjes Doesn't the Mantled Wilder have to learn every power from his mantle? Is there a mantle in which all the powers are worth knowing?
Fafnir 07-16-07, 06:04 AM	Giving the most powerful psionic class in the XPH all good saves is grounds for an implosion. Nu... wu... What!? :eek:
The_Ditto 07-16-07, 08:45 AM	Would it help if a failed Surge drained PP equal to the PP you were already spending on the power? For example, if you manifest a level 1 power, paying 1PP and surging for 6, you have a 30% chance of enervation and losing an additional 1PP. try 3 times the Wild surge amount ... For example: Wilder 8 .. using Wild Surge + 1 .. 5% chance: cost = 3 pp Wilder 13 .. using Wild Surge +3 .. 15% chance: cost = 9 pp Wilder 20 .. using Wild Surge: +1 => 5% => 3 pp +2 => 10% => 6 pp +3 => 15% => 9 pp +4 => 20% => 12 pp +5 => 25% => 15 pp +6 => 30% => 18 pp Net effect of this compared to existing rule of Wilder level loss in PP .. - low level (1-3) wilder's will really "hurt" if they enervate ... - high level wilders can surge for low amounts (+1 or +2) with relatively low fear of enervating ... (ie they actually get "better" .. or at least, they don't get worse .. *sigh* ) - If they surge with the highest surge they can, it'll result in a loss of PP approximately equal to the original method ... (ie it's in the same "ballpark") - Wilder's are not discouraged (ie "gimped") from progressing to Wilder 20 ...
rilem 07-16-07, 10:53 AM	That method seems pretty sound, but it really hoses low-level wilders. One unlucky roll can take out nearly all of a first-level wilder's PP for the day. Since presumably there will be more level 1-3 Wilders in play than Level 20 wilders (simply because many campaigns don't play to late levels and lots of people multiclass anyway), I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it. What if, in addition to this tweak, Wilders got Wild Talent as a bonus feat? The extra PP would help low-level wilders endure an enervation, but it doesn't matter much at higher level.
Magus_Darksoul 07-16-07, 03:36 PM	I personally think wilders should just have a flat rate of enervation (% chance) and loss in power points so that you dont feel like you are getting crappier as you level.
Lycanthromancer 07-16-07, 05:16 PM	Meh. Turn it into a Will save vs enervation each time you surge, with a DC that gets considerably higher as you increase the amount that you surge by. % rolls suck.
The_Ditto 07-16-07, 06:18 PM	That method seems pretty sound, but it really hoses low-level wilders. One unlucky roll can take out nearly all of a first-level wilder's PP for the day. Since presumably there will be more level 1-3 Wilders in play than Level 20 wilders (simply because many campaigns don't play to late levels and lots of people multiclass anyway), I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it. What if, in addition to this tweak, Wilders got Wild Talent as a bonus feat? The extra PP would help low-level wilders endure an enervation, but it doesn't matter much at higher level. Something to think about: yes it could hose them .. on the other hand, 1st level wilder only has about what .. 4 pp? Good, they SHOULD hesitate before using this ability ... Yes, it CAN hose them ... Of course if they spend their last pp while they surge .. then they really don't have anything to lose now, do they?? Also ... with only a 5% chance to surge ?? I've played a Wilder from level 1 up to level 7 .. then to level 12 via Constructor (Wilder 7 / Constructor 5 ..) I surged every time I manifested something (when it helped) ... and I think I only enervated an amount of times I can count on my hands ... all of them out of combat ... (sorry, 1 was in combat ... almost got hosed .. :P ) Lucky? Maybe .. but only a 5% ?? Try it sometime .. roll d% ... and see how many times you roll 1-5 ... I'm telling, a 1st level wilder doesn't have *THAT* much to fear ... :tiphat:
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 06:47 PM	It should be one time in 20.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-17-07, 12:46 AM	It should be one time in 20. That would be overpowered at higher levels. There's not enough risk involved for the benefits, +6 manifester level is huge in psionics, it ups your save DC by 3, gives you an extra 6 dice of damage (12 if you're tossing disintegrates around), and you don't have to pay extra power points for any of it, and that's just for direct damage spells.
CrimsonDeath 07-17-07, 02:15 AM	That would be overpowered at higher levels. There's not enough risk involved for the benefits, +6 manifester level is huge in psionics, it ups your save DC by 3, gives you an extra 6 dice of damage (12 if you're tossing disintegrates around), and you don't have to pay extra power points for any of it, and that's just for direct damage spells. I was specifically referring to The_Ditto's instruction to see how often you roll 5 or less on d%. Statistically, it should be one in twenty rolls.
Nom 07-17-07, 02:58 AM	Of course, a level 4 or greater wilder can get essentially unlimited pp over a day with the use of Bestow Power. For the cost of a single pp with +2 boost, the wilder can grant 3 pp to another psionicist (or maybe even to himself?). If that character also has Bestow Power (or, if necessary, pulls it out the wilder's mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkn ownPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown)) then they can transfer those points back at 3:2 (or better, if they too are a wilder). Repeat the loop as required until both are at full pp. And if it dazes the wilder, he just waits one round. Don't try this in combat, boys and girls! As long as he has at least 2 pp left (enough to manifest the power twice), he's good. And if he has none and the other party has 3, the other party can bootstrap the process. Clarification: I can't even see a rule requiring the wilder to spend any of her non-boosted pp while using a surge. Or is wild surge only useable to augment a power, not pay the base cost? If so, the above trick would require a wilder of at least 7th level, so they could spend 3 pp to provide 4 (cost 3 + 3 free augment).
unusualsuspect 07-17-07, 03:04 AM	Of course, a level 4 or greater wilder can get essentially unlimited pp over a day with the use of Bestow Power. For the cost of a single pp with +2 boost, the wilder can grant 3 pp to another psionicist (or maybe even to himself?). If that character also has Bestow Power (or, if necessary, pulls it out the wilder's mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkn ownPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown)) then they can transfer those points back at 3:2 (or better, if they too are a wilder). Repeat the loop as required until both are at full pp. And if it dazes the wilder, he just waits one round. Don't try this in combat, boys and girls! As long as he has at least 2 pp left (enough to manifest the power twice), he's good. And if he has none and the other party has 3, the other party can bootstrap the process. Actually, that 1 pp (with +2 from Wild Surge) would grant 2 pp to its target: The other psion would need Earth Power, a Torc of Power Preservation, or be a wilder himself to transfer it out at a non-loss (or be some grouping thereof to give more pp then he uses to manifest the power).
CrimsonDeath 07-17-07, 03:10 AM	Pretty sure you have to pay the unaugmented PP cost yourself. At level 4, with a Wild Surge of +2, you'd have to pay 4PP, surge for 2, and bestow 4PP, with a 10% chance of enervation, which loses you 4PP. On average, a net loss of PP. At level 7, you can pay 3PP, surge for 3, bestow 4PP, and run a 15% chance of losing 7PP. You'll still lose .05PP per manifestation. Enervation Endurance allows the level 7 Wilder to turn a profit-- barely. But your rate of profit will diminish every level, until it disappears at level 14 if you don't multiclass out. Also note that unless your recharge buddy is another Wilder with the same build, all you're doing is recharging him. Also note that the DM may not allow you to manifest the power on yourself, since the power describes linking your mind with "another psionic creature's mind".
unusualsuspect 07-17-07, 03:13 AM	With Earth Sense and Earth Power, a 4th level Wilder could stand on the earth, spend 3 pp himself, provide +2 from wild surge (10% chance of 4 pp loss), and have Earth Power reduce the augment cost by 1, granting 4 pp, and turning a pp profit as well. Now you just need a DM stupid enough willing to let you play such a character, and target yourself as well!
duppencf 07-17-07, 03:45 AM	the earth sense earth power trick is a very interesting break of the RAW, but not something I would ever allow a player to do. As for the wilder being underpowered...I have found them to be very effective "one hit wonders." They do lack versatility in power use, but an augmented Energy Ray is deadly with their base attack. Expanded knowledge Energy Missile with the Feat Favored Energy takes care of most foes in a coupe rounds. Delay Enervation is a must and by higher levels you can take out many foes in one shot. Plus the great touch att. AC is not to be scoffed at. All in all, they show up in my games as much as any other class.
Tinari 07-17-07, 05:05 AM	I always find myself in a love-hate relationship with wilders. Love the flavor and function. Hate the limitation of powers. A straight psion has enough powers to be absolute overkill for how I like to play. A Psi-warrior lacks the power point reserve for how I play. The wilder has the power point reserve, benefits that actually go along with my play style, but I spend days before a game where I might level up pouring over every power of every level wondering what power I should take next, because there are several I do want, but not enough powers available to actually get them all. I could always do Psion/Slayer to get the same effect, but I like Wilder just on a flavor basis. Ironically, getting the bonus "Expand Knowledge" feats falls at the worst time. You get a bonus 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th level power by Wilder 20. You also have leeway to take ONE level of something else. If you get two levels of any non-manifesting class, you drop the effective level of the additional EK bonus feats. Of course, show the Hidden Talent feat to your DM and see if he'll allow you to use that as a Wilder as your first level feat. My DM usually allows me to take it, as such I start with two powers known, two extra PP (which does help at 1st level) and we've had no balance issues arise from it.
Nom 07-17-07, 07:05 AM	At level 7, you can pay 3PP, surge for 3, bestow 4PP, and run a 15% chance of losing 7PP.Yeah, I noticed that as I was thinking further. Your chance of actually coming out ahead is quite slim, even with 2 L7 wilders.
The_Ditto 07-17-07, 08:33 AM	I was specifically referring to The_Ditto's instruction to see how often you roll 5 or less on d%. Statistically, it should be one in twenty rolls. Statistics are all fine ... but try it in practice ... it's not something that's going to "hose you" anytime on a regular basis .. How many powers does a 1st level Wilder manifest per session?? ... probably less than 10!!!!
The_Ditto 07-17-07, 08:36 AM	Clarification: I can't even see a rule requiring the wilder to spend any of her non-boosted pp while using a surge. Or is wild surge only useable to augment a power, not pay the base cost? Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.[ Just the augment .. not the base power .. :tiphat: And yes .. Bestow Power is worded "bad" ... somebody did a good re-write of it which removes these "inifinite" pp combos ... use those versions ... seriously .. use them ... :tiphat:
Jhaelen 07-17-07, 03:16 PM	All in all, they show up in my games as much as any other class.As they do in mine. Imho, the wilder's problem is definitely not power. It's versatility. You've got no chance to replace a primary caster/manifester but you'll be a very effective addition to a party that already has one. Most of the things making playing a wilder difficult can be somewhat alleviated if certain optional rules are used: - With the retraining rules from PHB2 choosing the right powers at the right time becomes a lot easier. - Enervation caused by a missed wild surge check can be averted by using an action point. - The alternate class ability from the Mind's Eye gives a significant boost to the number of powers known.
Tinari 07-17-07, 04:11 PM	We don't use action points in our group. As such, Enervation is the single most devastating class feature I've seen in a class, barring Frenzied Berserkers. >.> Wild Surge is probably one of the most powerful manifester class features as well. Hmm.
CrimsonDeath 07-17-07, 04:12 PM	Yeah, I noticed that as I was thinking further. Your chance of actually coming out ahead is quite slim, even with 2 L7 wilders. Over the long run, unless both of them have the Enervation Endurance feat, it is a statistical certainty that they will lose out. Each manifestation will produce 4 PP and consume 3 + (7 x .15) = 3 + 1.05 = 4.05 PP, for a net loss of 4.05 - 4 = .05PP per manifestation, as I already pointed out.
CrimsonDeath 07-17-07, 05:57 PM	Statistics are all fine ... but try it in practice ... it's not something that's going to "hose you" anytime on a regular basis .. How many powers does a 1st level Wilder manifest per session?? ... probably less than 10!!!! The point of statistics is that they describe what happens "in practice" reasonably well. If you always surge for +1, you're going to enervate about one time in twenty. The more often you do it, the closer you'll come to that frequency. I don't think "per session" is the length of time we should be talking about. "Per day" would be more appropriate, since that's how often the Wilder recovers his resources. The average level 1 Wilder will be manifesting three or four powers per day, since that's how many PP he has. There's always the possiblity, however, that he'll enervate on the first power he manifests. If he does, and he's using your rule of losing 3x the surge amount, he's suddenly completely out of resources for the day. Yes, he still has his skills and his simple weapons, but that won't help very much in the majority of CR 1 encounters. Yes, it's unlikely-- exactly as likely as rolling a 1 on a d20. However, rolling that 1 generally doesn't completely ruin a character's entire day, so that 5% shouldn't take the Wilder out of the equation for the day either. Of course, the obvious answer to this is that the Wilder doesn't have to Surge, or even manifest, every encounter. However, it would be best for him to have the option to do so, and for the risk to be worth the benefit.
Grimmsfeld 07-17-07, 06:22 PM	Meh. Turn it into a Will save vs enervation each time you surge, with a DC that gets considerably higher as you increase the amount that you surge by.Do you have a progression for this already? I keep trying to sketch somethng out, but it either winds up being a negligible DC, or too extreme...
The_Ditto 07-17-07, 08:43 PM	Of course, the obvious answer to this is that the Wilder doesn't have to Surge, or even manifest, every encounter. However, it would be best for him to have the option to do so, and for the risk to be worth the benefit. I totally agree .. something to keep in mind in regards to the surging .. a level 1 wilder .. surging for +1 every time .. statistics say: effect equivilent: 2 pp cost: 1 pp immediate savings: 1 pp 5% of losing an additional 3 pp 5% of 3 is .15 pp So average loss of .15 pp every time he surges .. (yeah, this doesn't count the situational cost of daze ... *shrug* ) Totals: 2 pp effect: costs 1 pp + .15 pp = 1.15 pp "spent" per surge. For a 2 pp effect ... 2 - 1.15 = .85 pp "saved" per surge. I call that "net gain" .. I see that 1st level wilder saving .85 pp every time he surges ... so after 20 surges ... that's a total of 17 pp saved ... and "statistically" he only enervated "once" ... so if he does manifest 4 powers each day ... he only "loses out" (as you say) once every 5 days ... ... yeah, 1 day in 5 he becomes a glorified paper weight ... the other 4 he spends 17 pp more than he had ... that's HUGE!! :D (and if you work from the book version of losing 1 pp ... he saves 19 pp over 20 surges ... and when you continue to work it out as the Wilder gets higher level ... it gets morbidly bad with the increased level ... my version - at least - doesn't get so horribly "bad" with increased level ... :tiphat: )
The_Ditto 07-17-07, 08:44 PM	Do you have a progression for this already? I keep trying to sketch somethng out, but it either winds up being a negligible DC, or too extreme... I'd avoid the will save .. maybe consider a caster level check ??
DM Zoc 07-17-07, 10:19 PM	In my experience, the Wilder is fairly powerful. As powerful as any of the spontaneous casters, at least, but with options to be a decent melee combatant. The Elude Touch feature is probably the most powerful, unique ability of the class (especially with a decent shield and the shield ward feat), but the ability to summon an Astral Construct 9 so far before level 17 is also very nice.
Manyfist 07-17-07, 10:29 PM	In my experience, the Wilder is fairly powerful. As powerful as any of the spontaneous casters, at least, but with options to be a decent melee combatant. The Elude Touch feature is probably the most powerful, unique ability of the class (especially with a decent shield and the shield ward feat), but the ability to summon an Astral Construct 9 so far before level 17 is also very nice. Elude Touch is a weak ability. Now if it added Cha mod. to AC and AC bonuses maybe it be ok.
Votan 07-18-07, 12:23 AM	In my experience, the Wilder is fairly powerful. As powerful as any of the spontaneous casters, at least, but with options to be a decent melee combatant. The Elude Touch feature is probably the most powerful, unique ability of the class (especially with a decent shield and the shield ward feat), but the ability to summon an Astral Construct 9 so far before level 17 is also very nice. While the Astral Construct thing is nice, the new rules on it from the Complete Psionic aren't great and it eats up one of the Wilder's extremely limited feats. The most painful thing about Wilder's is that they need to spend feats for the powers thast they get the msot use out of (like Energy Missile and Astral Construct).
DM Zoc 07-18-07, 04:24 AM	Interesting. I always thought that Elude Touch was one of the more powerful features of the wilder, akin to the paladin's Divine Grace. Wilders have a nice selection of armors and shields (with no real benefit to using a weapon, so the shield is no-brainer). Charisma even powers their spellcasting, so a standard Wilder should have a higher touch AC than even a monk! Is this not a big deal? Also, is the Complete Psionic revision of Astral Construct in the errata of the XPH? Is it a major nerf, or just a clarification?
The_Ditto 07-18-07, 08:40 AM	Interesting. I always thought that Elude Touch was one of the more powerful features of the wilder, akin to the paladin's Divine Grace. Wilders have a nice selection of armors and shields (with no real benefit to using a weapon, so the shield is no-brainer). Charisma even powers their spellcasting, so a standard Wilder should have a higher touch AC than even a monk! Is this not a big deal? The problem with it is that it only gets as good as the armor you're wearing!! (and they default to light armor proficiency, so ... before magic ... what, a bonus of +4 to +6 ?) Potentially .. sure ... but the ability itself defies common sense: Remove your armor, and why does your Elude Touch not help anymore?? :confused: In my games, the restriction of it tied to base AC is removed ... she can have a better touch AC than base AC ... Also, is the Complete Psionic revision of Astral Construct in the errata of the XPH? Is it a major nerf, or just a clarification? The Complete Psionic IS the errata .. didn't ya know? :rolleyes: It's a major nerf ... with no (valid) justification ... fix the wilder and overchannel and you fix the problems .. (again, in my games, I remove Overchannel entirely - which actually makes the Wilder that much more unique ... if you want to surf the metacap .. you don't just take a feat ... it's a major character decision ... just like the Wild Mage ... :tiphat: )
The_Shaman 07-18-07, 08:44 AM	Elude touch seems nice for paladin/wilder gishes, though. Mmm, full plate and yummy charisma to nearly everything ;)
Rhonin the Big 07-18-07, 01:59 PM	The problem with it is that it only gets as good as the armor you're wearing!! (and they default to light armor proficiency, so ... before magic ... what, a bonus of +4 to +6 ?) Potentially .. sure ... but the ability itself defies common sense: Remove your armor, and why does your Elude Touch not help anymore?? :confused: In my games, the restriction of it tied to base AC is removed ... she can have a better touch AC than base AC ... How could you be better at eluding rays than you are at eluding arrows? The Complete Psionic IS the errata .. didn't ya know? :rolleyes: It's a major nerf ... with no (valid) justification ... fix the wilder and overchannel and you fix the problems .. (again, in my games, I remove Overchannel entirely - which actually makes the Wilder that much more unique ... if you want to surf the metacap .. you don't just take a feat ... it's a major character decision ... just like the Wild Mage ... :tiphat: ) Complete psionics is neither reprint nor errata, thus it is not official in anyway. Errata is always free, if errata was part of a book we pay for anybody who plays the game could circumvent the change of the rules by simply saying "I don't own complete psionics so I use the powers as written in XPH." Look at all the spells reprinted in spell compendium, how official would they be if all they said was "This spell is exactly the same as noted on page XYZ of book AB except noted here?" An official reprint needs to do exactly that, reprint it officially, or else it is not an official rule change. Elude touch seems nice for paladin/wilder gishes, though. Mmm, full plate and yummy charisma to nearly everything ;) I'd rather have a mantle. My fix to psychic enervation is as follows: When you use wild surge you must make a will save after the power takes effect with a DC = 10+power's level+CL increase from wild surge. Failure means you lose power points = 3x the power's level and are dazed for one round.
rilem 07-18-07, 02:39 PM	My fix to psychic enervation is as follows: When you use wild surge you must make a will save after the power takes effect with a DC = 10+power's level+CL increase from wild surge. Failure means you lose power points = 3x the power's level and are dazed for one round. So in just about 50 percent(!!!) of cases a 1st level Wilder with a 12 Wisdom will lose their entire Power Point reserve. That's WAY too harsh. Personally I don't think much of Mantled Wilder, either. The elude touch vs. mantle is fine, but Wilders have too few choices for powers anyway without having their entire power progression planned for them. It can work for some very tailored builds, but in most cases I'd pass.
The_Ditto 07-18-07, 07:58 PM	How could you be better at eluding rays than you are at eluding arrows? Magic ? :P actually, I've played with ideas revolving revamping a few of the wilder's powers ... elude touch is one of them .. *shrug*
DisposableHero_ 07-18-07, 08:05 PM	Do you have a progression for this already? I keep trying to sketch somethng out, but it either winds up being a negligible DC, or too extreme...I would actually use a constant DC thats difficulty early in the career but becomes irrelevant at high levels. One of the issues with the wilder is that its primary class feature is among the few in D&D history that gets statistically worse as you level up. Classes should not be punished for using their class features at high levels, and the wilder is.
eggplantm 07-19-07, 08:28 AM	I can't believe what I'm reading here. The Wilder is far from underpowered in any way. They are a full manifester with medium BAB and light armor and shield proficiency, as many PP as a psion, good skill points and a huge selection of skills. Their wild surge makes them more effective than a psion of the same level and the psychic enervation comes up rarely in actuallity. If you do about 8 encounters an adventure, even at high levels, this is only about one or two. I have seen a wilder played up to level 21. This character was easily one of the most dangerous in the party and was far from optimized. In my current game, a player has a wilder of 7th level and it is still working the same way. yes, the wilder has few powers known. BIG DEAL! Psionic powers are way more versatile than spells anyway. Energy ray or any of the energy powers can be used as four different energy types. That's four spells for any caster. There are some poor choices but your have to work hard to really screw it up. Most wilders I've seen take expanded knowledge anyway to pick up something like astral construct or energy missle. It is hell on earth then. I urge people who claim the wilder is weak to play one, they are anything but weak and I consider them one of the best designed and most fun classes to play.
rilem 07-19-07, 10:15 AM	. I consider them one of the best designed and most fun classes to play. They might be fun to play, and they may even be effective, but they're not well-designed. The_Ditto's analysis of the comparative cost of wild surge demonstrates that quite well.
Votan 07-19-07, 12:25 PM	They might be fun to play, and they may even be effective, but they're not well-designed. The_Ditto's analysis of the comparative cost of wild surge demonstrates that quite well. Agreed. The raw cost of wild surging is too high unless feas are spent to mitigate it. It's not just the sheer scale of the lost power points (although they really annoy me) but also the dazing that follows. Losing actions can be fatal in D&D. The Wilder has to ability to "outnova" the psion. This makes it powerful for very few encounters. I also note the completel lack of epic bonus feats for the epic wilder (who eventually has to stop surging because level 20 is the break even poit for risk vs. cost with surges).
The_Ditto 07-19-07, 08:09 PM	I urge people who claim the wilder is weak to play one, they are anything but weak and I consider them one of the best designed and most fun classes to play. I played up to a Wilder 7 / constructor 5 ... still couldn't keep up to the Wizard and Druid in the party .. :tiphat: If you really want to see how "well designed" they are ... examine an epic level Wilder with Wild Surge +10 ... hmm ... 50% chance of daze ... ... and increasing loss of PP ... (even though you gain no additional PP for those epic levels .. ) oh ... joy ... :rolleyes: Wilders are good .. I'll not deny that .. my real only complaint is the mechanics behind the enervation ... it sucks ... absolutely and totally .. It needs redoing ... somehow .. anyway ... then you have a good class .. :tiphat:
BloodSpill 07-20-07, 12:42 AM	So I looked at the Wilder, and thought 'hehe'. Presenting the Oddball, or "Two trick pony" Psion 1/Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10 Step 1: Move into combat + Stun (Stunning Surge Weapon - DMG II, Energy Stun, Psionic Blast) Step 2: Explode with Wild Surge + Chaotic Surge (Energy Burst, Ultrablast) Step 3: Recover from enervation Step 4: Repeat Stunning surge is Cha mod times per day, with a save of 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod. I likes it.
The_Ditto 07-20-07, 12:32 PM	Presenting the Oddball, or "Two trick pony" Psion 1/Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10 How are you qualifying for Anarchic Initiate again?? I'm not seeing (with this progression as you have it) the skill points for the knowledge Planes requirement adding up ... :tiphat:
rilem 07-20-07, 12:54 PM	I'm presuming that's what the otherwise pointless psion level is for, then he just pumps cc skill points into it. That's doable by level 6.
Fafnir 07-20-07, 02:16 PM	Wouldn't the Educated feat be more efficient, though?
rilem 07-20-07, 02:22 PM	Yes, but it's not as easy to get, especially if you're not in a Realms game.
BloodSpill 07-20-07, 02:24 PM	Or Eberron. I've never actually played a D&D game in a published campaign setting. And you get two first level powers with that level. :D
rilem 07-20-07, 02:28 PM	And a free feat, I know -- but the hit to an already poor power progression is murder. And if you're going to be a psion, just be a Psion5/Anarchic Initiate and you'll be far more than a two-trick pony.
BloodSpill 07-20-07, 02:45 PM	:D Yeah. Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10 wins this combo (ML 19th, +16 BAB), but it doesn't have shield proficiency. The previous build was a tongue-in-cheek suggesting following this line of thought: "It's commonly said that a wilder is only good at one thing. (Whatever that may be)" "+15 BAB, shield proficiency? Let's make a psi-gish!" "With a good will save instead of a good fortitude save?" "So he needs powers he can surge with. That's mostly energy powers." "And the only decent area ones on the general power list are bursts?" "Well he's got full armour, shield and martial weapon proficiency. He could just charge into combat." "He won't deal any damage in melee. What if he stunned the opponent instead?" "Hey look at that melee weapon enhancement! It works on Charisma!" "Haha, so he runs in and stuns people, or runs in and blows up. I've gotta post this." Um. Yeah.
Votan 07-20-07, 06:17 PM	If you really want to see how "well designed" they are ... examine an epic level Wilder with Wild Surge +10 ... hmm ... 50% chance of daze ... ... and increasing loss of PP ... (even though you gain no additional PP for those epic levels .. ) oh ... joy ... :rolleyes: This is a 35th level Wilder. You gamble 50% chance of losing 35 power points for +10 on one action plus chance of daze. At these levels, even +1 is dangerous as 5% of the time you lose 35 power points. :eek: Plus, your power points capped (barring Improved Manifestation). You have 5 feats from leveling up. The psion has 11 and is about to have 12. This means that the psion can actually afford the loss of power points much more than the Wilder. If they capped the maximum loss at 20 power points or the maximum chance of a backfire at 30%, there would be a reason to sue this class feature in epic. Now I know epic isn't great for many classes but it is worth paying attention to The Ditto here. Yes, you can blow feats to make the daze work better but the Wilder is already screaming for feats just for expanded knowledge. Here it is not the matter of picking the 11 powers correctly -- it is that the powers that most benefit a wilder are on the psion restricted lists (energy missle, anyone?). You get 7 feats in 20 levels. Probably 2 are gone for expanded knowledge and 2 are gone to mitigate dazing (in one of several ways). That's a very painful way to build a character . . . The psion gets 5 bonus feats in 20 levels. They can remove the hit point difference of the classes in one of two ways using a single feat. They can't really match the BAB but that is a different problem and not likely to matter that much. To make the Wilder good you need to be able to surge. And surging is badly designed as a mechanic.
HighPriestMikhal 07-20-07, 06:43 PM	This is just a beta version, but I got this idea from the video game Galerians: Ash Cerebral Shield You can manifest a shield to absorb damage using just your mind. Level: Wilder 1st Level. Replaces: This benefit replaces the wilder's Elude Touch ability. Benefit: As a swift action you can manifest a glowing shield that absorbs your Charisma modifier in points of damage at the cost of 1 PP. You can sustain the shield at 1 PP when you suffer more damage than you could absorb with one manifestation (formula equals [damage taken] divided by[Charisma modifier]; so 12 points of damage against a modifier of +2 is 6 PP). If you drop the shield or run out of PPs when not all the damage of an attack is absorbed, you suffer the remaining points of damage. The shield can absorb any type of damage. This is a force effect. Since wilders have as many PPs as psions but half as many powers, this could be a nice alternative. Plus a player has to balance between preserving those PPs against a shield that's going to block damage outright.
DisposableHero_ 07-20-07, 08:37 PM	At these levels, even +1 is dangerous as 5% of the time you lose 35 power points.Which is in fact exactly the point. Regardless of how weak or strong the Wild Surge/enervation mechanics are, they are wrong, because they get worse as you level up instead of better.
MerlintheTuna 07-21-07, 12:52 AM	"Haha, so he runs in and stuns people, or runs in and blows up. I've gotta post this."Just don't let him ever see a Jade Phoenix Mage and he should be fine.:shifty:
Jhaelen 07-21-07, 05:14 PM	Which is in fact exactly the point. Regardless of how weak or strong the Wild Surge/enervation mechanics are, they are wrong, because they get worse as you level up instead of better.Hmm. I think you have to compare the number of power points lost from a wild surge with the number of total power points. If you do this, you'll notice that the percentage of power points lost gets smaller with each level: level 1: losing 1 PP from a total of 2 = 50% level 2: losing 2 PP from a total of 6 = 33% level 3: losing 3 PP from a total of 11 = 27% ... level 20: losing 20 PP from a total of 343 = 6% Compare this to what a spellcaster loses when hit by enervation: One spell slot from the highest available level. Obviously a 17th level wizard loses more than a 1st level wizard although both have been hit with the same effect. I think that's what the wilder's enervation is modeled after. And I think it's fine as it is, because it means, that the risk of enervation stays a real risk. Besides I think that losing a whole round being dazed is far worse than any loss of PP could ever be. P.S.: Things break down at epic level. IMHO, nothing to worry about, though - in epic games everything breaks down ;)
The_Ditto 07-21-07, 06:19 PM	Hmm. I think you have to compare the number of power points lost from a wild surge with the number of total power points. If you do this, you'll notice that the percentage of power points lost gets smaller with each level: [\QUOTE] Do that for Overchannel ... laugh at the results ... :tiphat: Evervation is a "broken" and "poorly executed" mechanic ... period .. Anyway you want to look at it, I can easily show you how it just doesn't hold a candle to a similar mechanic ... [QUOTE=Jhaelen;13147618] Compare this to what a spellcaster loses when hit by enervation: One spell slot from the highest available level. Obviously a 17th level wizard loses more than a 1st level wizard although both have been hit with the same effect. :uh-huh: Uh, ok, let's compare what Enervation (ie the Spell -> loss of a level type thing - not the Wilder class ability) does to: A Sorcerer: 1 spell slot ... A Psion: PP equivalent to 1 spell slot .. PLUS ... 1 known power ... Yeah .. don't even go there guy ... :tiphat: That's the wrong argument to bring up ... I think that's what the wilder's enervation is modeled after. Except for the daze ... :rolleyes: Besides I think that losing a whole round being dazed is far worse than any loss of PP could ever be. Then you've never lost a round at levels 15+ in combats where all it takes is 1 round to turn a target into chop suey ... loss of 1 round at high levels = you lose ... P.S.: Things break down at epic level. IMHO, nothing to worry about, though - in epic games everything breaks down ;) Yeah, I agree ... but still, it's funny how much faster the Wilder's Enervation breaks down .. :tiphat:
DisposableHero_ 07-21-07, 08:37 PM	Jhaelen, Try comparing the gain of power points from the free augment of wild surge with the expected power point loss from enervation: at level 1, you have a 5% chance of losing 1 power point per surge and gain 1 power point per surge. 1 - 0.05 * 1 = 0.95 surge 100 times, your net gain is 95 power points at level 2, your gain is the same, your loss is doubled 1 - 0.05 * 2 = 0.90 surge 100 times, your net gain is 90 power points at level 3, for every point you gain you have a 5% chance to lose 3 power points so your gain is 0.85 power points per +1 of surge Note how the normalized gain is dropping every level. At level 20, we gain nothing, as the 5% chance per point of wild surge works to grant exactly the number of power points as we expect to lose. Beyond level 20 it actually costs us power points to use wild surge in the long run. This is what I mean when I say it gets worse as you level up. You're power point pool gets bigger but the benefit of having wild surge is less. The sweetspot is actually level 7. A 7th level wilder's surge +3 gives him a total gain per surge of 3 - 0.15 * 7 = 1.95 power points per surge. At this level assuming 18 charisma we can full augment and surge 7 to 9 powers a day, providing additional stamina of approximately 14 - 18 extra power points per day. Thats unfortunately as good as it gets at any point in the wilder's career.
Votan 07-21-07, 11:53 PM	The sweetspot is actually level 7. A 7th level wilder's surge +3 gives him a total gain per surge of 3 - 0.15 * 7 = 1.95 power points per surge. At this level assuming 18 charisma we can full augment and surge 7 to 9 powers a day, providing additional stamina of approximately 14 - 18 extra power points per day. Thats unfortunately as good as it gets at any point in the wilder's career. What is also strange about this is, if you are happy with +3 surges, this is when you multi-class. :) That way you actually do better with +2 surges at 20th level than the 20th level pure class Wilder who has the same failure chance for much more power points at stake. ' I think that this is a major clue as to where this all breaks down as a multi-class character should not be fundementally better at using the class feature than a pure class character.
Rhonin the Big 07-22-07, 07:03 PM	What is also strange about this is, if you are happy with +3 surges, this is when you multi-class. :) That way you actually do better with +2 surges at 20th level than the 20th level pure class Wilder who has the same failure chance for much more power points at stake. Wilders are enforced to multiclass, it's simply how they work. A wilder11/anarchic initiate9 with education and enervation endurance can wild surge upto +6 with no drawbacks whatsoever. Even without AI we have slayer and thrallherd as viable 9 level pRc options, staying wilder20 is about as dumb as staying fighter20. I think that this is a major clue as to where this all breaks down as a multi-class character should not be fundementally better at using the class feature than a pure class character. Most class features are used better by a multiclassed character than a single class character. A wizard with 15 levels in full spellcasting pRc is a better spellcaster than wizard20, a barbarian with levels in frenzied berserker can rage better than a barb20. Wilders are no exception to this, when you opt out of multiclassing any weaknesses in your build are the weaknesses inherent in the class itself. The bottom line is the wilder is light years ahead of the psion in terms of raw power, even with only 11 powers known + bonus EK + a mantle. Reasons (because I like lists): Charisma based manifester, anybody who even took a cursory glance at LordKiwi's "X stat to Y bonus" resource knows that charisma has the highest synergy out of all the ability scores. Wilder's multiclass surprisingly well, with their decent class skill list and 4 skill points a level they can meet requirements for pRc quite easily. Thanx to wild surge they can specialize quite heavily, a wilder built for nuking, whipping ego or spitting out astral construct(s) all over the battlefield will come out better than a psion. Wilder's are not that feat intensive, they really only need enervation endurance + postpone enervation (or if AI is used, replace postpone enervation with education) everything else is pretty much open. Psions often take overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic focus action-cost-down and psionic body; a wilders class features alone negate the need for overchannel and without bonus psionic feats there is not much to expend psi focus on. As I always say, never count out the wilder for specialty psionic builds.
DisposableHero_ 07-22-07, 10:53 PM	I think that this is a major clue as to where this all breaks down as a multi-class character should not be fundementally better at using the class feature than a pure class character.Thats one way to say it, I prefer to say that a character should get better at using his class features when he levels up, not worse.